Jump to content

Limbo 3.0: Reworking the Rift


Teridax68
 Share

Recommended Posts

1. Introduction

Since his release, Limbo has always been known for being a troll frame: his unique Rift mechanic blocks interaction between Tenno and enemies, and also between players and some parts of the environment. This is generally useful, but backfires spectacularly when used poorly or maliciously, as players can end up being blocked from killing, activating consoles, or even just picking up items on the ground without shifting to Spoiler Mode. On release, he generally wasn't appreciated for anything much besides trolling, and thankfully his rework fixed that... while making him even cheesier in certain respects, and failing to eliminate his troll potential. Many core problems remain, and this thread proposes a rework with the aim of addressing them, while intending to preserve Limbo's playstyle.

2. What's wrong with Limbo?

TL;DR: The Rift mechanic always carries a bit of harm to players in its current state and messy deployment, and Limbo's current strength comes from cheesing all interaction out of defensive missions. Here's a more exhaustive list:

Spoiler
  • When enemies are in the Rift and players aren't, those enemies become invulnerable unless one enters the Rift or switches to Spoiler Mode, leading to constant interruptions in the flow of combat.
  • It's often difficult to tell when enemies are in the Rift, and thus if one has to do something in particular to kill them.
  • It's not that difficult for players to get caught in the Rift and suddenly have a lot of basic interactions disabled, such as picking up objects or activating consoles. Rolling out of the effect is still annoying and still leaves a portion of time where one is caught with an unwanted effect, and so doesn't fix the problem entirely.
  • When used properly, the Rift is basically godmode for Limbo or allies in the rift. It can let Limbo completely ignore everything that's going around him as he moves to the next objective, and can similarly protect defense objectives in a manner enemies can't counter, short of ability nullification.
  • Cataclysm is messy on a number of levels: enemies near the receding edge dip in and out of the Rift to the point where it's difficult to tell which side one has to stand in to kill them, and a mistimed cast can prevent players from putting a datamass into a console in Mobile Defense missions. Blocking ally moves like this should generally not be allowed.
  • Limbo's passive is also messy, since rolling is a natural part of our movement. This leads to Limbo having to either keep dipping in and out of the Rift as part of his regular movement, or slow himself down. Since each entry into the Rift leaves a portal, this means allies can also accidentally get caught in the Rift as well.
  • Banish, as an indiscriminate AoE that puts everyone in the Rift, is messy for similar reasons as the above.
  • Stasis is a massive, AoE stun that can be left permanently active, which combined with Cataclysm blows pretty much any other defensive ability out of the water. It's not really possible for a frame like Frost to compete with a limited-health bubble that slows and sometimes freezes when Limbo can render defense objectives invulnerable from the outside of his damage-immune bubble, and perma-stun everyone inside.
  • Rift Surge is a meme due to how confusing it is.

Effectively, Limbo is only strong when he stops gameplay from happening, and his kiss-curse core mechanic mixes poorly with how indiscriminately it's often applied, making it very easy for players to end up having to deal with the unwanted consequences of Limbo's ability casts. A skilled Limbo can mitigate most of these problems (most, not all), but an inexperienced Limbo or outright troll can easily turn any multiplayer mission into a slog by blocking their teammates.

3. What are the goals of this rework?

The main goals of this rework concept are the following:

  • Eliminate the troll potential from Limbo's kit, and remove the aspects of his abilities that block allies.
  • Prevent Limbo from AFK cheesing missions.
  • Generally make Limbo both smoother to play while keeping his core playstyle intact: he should excel at disabling enemies and protecting allies, without trolling anyone or rendering objectives automatically invulnerable.

4. The Rework:

  • Passive: Enemies hit by Limbo's abilities are dealt the unique Rift status effect for the standard status duration. Enemies affected by Rift status have the effects of their attacks and abilities negated, and disappear instantly and silently when killed (but can still be subsequently affected by Nekros's Desecrate if applicable). Some bosses are immune to the effects of Rift status, but can still have the effect applied to them.
  •  1 - Banish: Limbo unleashes a wave of Rift energy in a cone. Enemies hit are dealt Impact damage equal to a flat amount, plus a portion of their missing health and shields, whereas allies hit benefit from Limbo's passive for a duration.
    • Augment - Rift Haven: Limbo and allies hit by Banish have a portion of their missing health restored.
  • 2 - Stasis: Limbo alters the Rift plane: for a duration, all Rift-affected enemies are stunned and frozen in place, have their armor reduced by a percentage, and spread their status effects to nearby enemies on death. Reactivating the ability ends its effects immediately.
    • Augment - Static Charge: For the ability's duration, Limbo gains stacking bonus damage each time a Rift-affected enemy dies.
  • 3 - Rift Surge: Limbo releases a radial burst of energy, cleansing himself of status effects, and rendering himself immune to damage and status for a short duration. Allies hit by the burst benefit from the same effects, while enemies hit are dealt minor Impact damage. For a longer duration, this ability's Energy cost is increased, stacking with subsequent casts within the duration, and with the duration reduced every time a Rift-affected enemy dies.
    • Augment - Rift Torrent: While invulnerable, Limbo and allies hit by Rift Surge continually deal Impact damage to nearby enemies.
  • 4 - Cataclysm: Limbo tears an opening to the Rift plane, dealing Blast damage to all enemies in a spherical area. For a duration, a storm remains in the area that deals Impact damage each second to all enemies within equal to a flat amount, plus a portion of their current health and shields. The storm's radius reduces over the duration down to nothing, and reactivating the ability ends it immediately.
    • Augment - Cataclysmic Continuum: Cataclysm's duration and size are increased every time a Rift-affected enemy dies, up to its maximum.

TL;DR: Limbo's Rift gets changed into a status effect that no longer affects allies, but still disables enemies. Stasis and Rift Surge get merged into a single stun-and-spread ability, and Limbo instead gets another active that lets him render himself and allies temporarily invulnerable at a price. Limbo would no longer be able to troll allies, and would have to work a little harder to protect objectives, but would also likely play a lot smoother, and be able to do a few more things.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My grudge with Limbo isnt just the fact he prevents other players ability to kill/loot/interact, its also the fact he can also remain infinitely in the rift the whole mission.
I really wish passive to Enter/Leave the rift had both Duration and Cooldown to stop players cheesing/afking missions in the Rift.
[DE] should also remove that rift passage he leaves behind when dashing because its a nuisance for the rest of the team when running behind a Limbo and passing through it.

Regarding your proposed Rework, the thing that worries me the most is the "plus portion of missing/remaining health" damage you suggested to some of his skills. The percentage would have to be measly so Limbo cant be turned into a nuke or becomes too powerful wile also granting his invulnerabilities to him self and allies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Teridax68:

Limbo's current strength comes from cheesing all interaction out of defensive missions.

3/5 fractions can do something about limbos abilitys by deactivate them or ignoring them. and sometimes the rift does not even work right.
so most of the time a limbo will have to be aware what is happening and cant just go afk.

i see why defence missions are a problem for some but since ability dmg can hurt enemys in and outside the rift it is easyer to deal with the rift

and about trolling what can limbo do rift people that can roll out of it and rift enemys you only cannot hurt useing weapons if you a not in the rift while they are and vice versa

i mean i see why it is sometimes confuseing if an enemy is in the rift or not but for defence missionen it should be easy to notice since limbos will use normaly stasis anyways so if it is moveing it most likely is not in the rift

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Teridax68:

Cataclysm is messy

it is more messy if the has a higer range and most of the times limbo should not even need that mutch range for his abilitys anyways and about the miss timeing it happens

 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Teridax68:

This leads to Limbo having to either keep dipping in and out of the Rift as part of his regular movement, or slow himself down.

well if the group is a fast group that would be kind of a problem but most groups have not everytime that mutch speed that you cant keep up with them
 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Teridax68:

t's not really possible for a frame like Frost to compete with a limited-health bubble that slows and sometimes freezes when Limbo can render defense objectives invulnerable from the outside of his damage-immune bubble, and perma-stun everyone inside.

so maybe frost needs a rework to be better again ?

 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Teridax68:

A skilled Limbo can mitigate most of these problems (most, not all), but an inexperienced Limbo or outright troll can easily turn any multiplayer mission into a slog by blocking their teammates.

like so many people can ruin your mission by just not doing stuff or not knowing things but that just Open mission where everything can happen and somethimes what will happen is not at all good
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

its also the fact he can also remain infinitely in the rift the whole mission.
I really wish passive to Enter/Leave the rift had both Duration and Cooldown to stop players cheesing/afking missions in the Rift.

Because that's so out of place in this game? If you remove it from him, it'll just be an Inaros, Grendel, dash wire Ivara, etc... 

I feel like people remember the couple limbo's that AFK'd while they were MR10 on Hydron, and then forget that this doesn't happen in the rest of the game.

4 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

[DE] should also remove that rift passage he leaves behind when dashing because its a nuisance for the rest of the team when running behind a Limbo and passing through it.

Ah yes, this free invincibility and energy regen is so inconveniencing. Please, no more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

My grudge with Limbo isnt just the fact he prevents other players ability to kill/loot/interact, its also the fact he can also remain infinitely in the rift the whole mission.

Indeed, that's one of the gripes I listed. Limbo in general just operates through cheese in almost every facet of his kit, which is why I was stumped for years on how he could possibly change for the better without losing his identity.

Quote

I really wish passive to Enter/Leave the rift had both Duration and Cooldown to stop players cheesing/afking missions in the Rift.

While I can agree with the sentiment that Limbo should probably not be rewarded for going AFK in the Rift through unlimited invincibility and Energy regen, I don't know if a cooldown would be the best approach, as locking Limbo out of a potentially vital dodge just because he rolled as part of his parkour doesn't sound great. I wonder if it could work to make his innate Rift rapidly drain a separate resource that would quickly replenish while not in use, like a block meter in fighting games.

Quote

[DE] should also remove that rift passage he leaves behind when dashing because its a nuisance for the rest of the team when running behind a Limbo and passing through it.

This I can agree with much more. There is a benefit to accessing it, but more often than not I've found myself hitting that mini-portal by accident, whether as Limbo or as an ally, and having to roll out of the Rift just so that I could resume killing enemies as per normal.

Quote

Regarding your proposed Rework, the thing that worries me the most is the "plus portion of missing/remaining health" damage you suggested to some of his skills. The percentage would have to be measly so Limbo cant be turned into a nuke or becomes too powerful wile also granting his invulnerabilities to him self and allies.

This is a valid concern, and one of the main reasons why I made sure not to list specific numbers in my rework (it's otherwise too easy to latch onto a specific number and say it's OP or a nerf). Ideally, Limbo shouldn't be able to nuke enemies too quickly unless he invests in a Power Strength-heavy build that would sacrifice duration (so he'd be able to nuke groups of enemies hard, but wouldn't be able to protect himself and allies for too long, or lay down sustained area denial), and even then, it should take several more steps than, say, Mesa or Saryn. One potential way to control this as well could be to make the scaling like Oberon's Smite, which has a percentage max health+shields damage component that doesn't scale with Power Strength.

3 hours ago, Keiyadan said:

3/5 fractions can do something about limbos abilitys by deactivate them or ignoring them. and sometimes the rift does not even work right.
so most of the time a limbo will have to be aware what is happening and cant just go afk.

Put another way, this means multiple major factions in the game can do absolutely nothing against Limbo's abilities (I'm presuming you mean Grineer and Infested, so two thirds of the game's most common factions), and absolutely allow Limbo to AFK for large periods of time in those situations. In the remaining cases, the vast majority of enemies still cannot do anything, it's just a few specific units who either nullify his abilities (and every other ability in the game, so not really a good defense there), or ignore them (and there too, along with most other effects in the game). Bugs do not justify the broken design of his kit either.

3 hours ago, Keiyadan said:

i see why defence missions are a problem for some but since ability dmg can hurt enemys in and outside the rift it is easyer to deal with the rift

This is great if you're a nuke frame, terrible if you're trying to kill enemies with your weapons. Given that players in pub groups have no means of predicting whether or not they're going to end up with a Limbo, I don't think it's fair for them to be expected to bring a nuke frame just in case.

3 hours ago, Keiyadan said:

and about trolling what can limbo do rift people that can roll out of it and rift enemys you only cannot hurt useing weapons if you a not in the rift while they are and vice versa

Examples of trolling Limbo can do:

  • Block enemies from killing enemies they were about to attack. You can roll out of the effect, but that takes time and forces you to do something you wouldn't necessarily have otherwise done, disrupting you in the meantime.
  • Prevent enemies from being killed by Banishing them but failing to give players a means of entering the Rift. If you rely on weapons to deal damage, there's not much you can do.
  • Prevent players from entering the datamass in a console with their warframe, such as in Mobile Defense or Sabotage.
  • Cause hacks to fail by putting a player into the Rift mid-hack. Also: preventing players from hacking while in their warframes.
  • Prevent players from destroying containers and picking up objects such as Ayatan stars while in their warframes.

As you can see, the problems don't just lie with blocking interaction between players and enemies, because the Rift also disables interaction between players and the environment. When this blocking is applied through effects like Cataclysm, one cannot just simply roll out of it, one needs to enter Spoiler Mode, and that may not be appropriate for the situation.

3 hours ago, Keiyadan said:

i mean i see why it is sometimes confuseing if an enemy is in the rift or not but for defence missionen it should be easy to notice since limbos will use normaly stasis anyways so if it is moveing it most likely is not in the rift

Which even then is still confusing when enemies at the edge of Cataclysm's bubble will start and stop constantly as they dip in and out of the Rift. It is also perfectly possible for enemies to be stunned through other effects, e.g. other warframe abilities, pets, or Spoiler Mode abilities and arcanes, which adds to the confusion.

3 hours ago, Keiyadan said:

it is more messy if the has a higer range and most of the times limbo should not even need that mutch range for his abilitys anyways and about the miss timeing it happens

"Should" being the operative word here, because many Limbo players will have high range on their builds and take those to missions like Defense or Interception. This is made worse when the player in question uses an energy color that is difficult to make out from the background, such as black (which makes ability energy transparent).

3 hours ago, Keiyadan said:

well if the group is a fast group that would be kind of a problem but most groups have not everytime that mutch speed that you cant keep up with them

So first off, this isn't really true, as experienced players will move fast and use rolling as a means of achieving that. Secondly, it's kind of beside the point, since the very act of tying a staple movement ability to an effect whose purpose isn't movement at all makes that move awkward, since your regular movement ends up having potentially unwanted side effects every time you use that move.

3 hours ago, Keiyadan said:

so maybe frost needs a rework to be better again ?

Oh, I agree Frost needs a rework to improve, as he has a lot of problems and most of his kit is kind of obsolete, but as stated in the OP, it's not really possible to compete within the same niche against a damage-immune bubble that stunlocks everyone within, nor should anyone try to. 

3 hours ago, Keiyadan said:

like so many people can ruin your mission by just not doing stuff or not knowing things but that just Open mission where everything can happen and somethimes what will happen is not at all good

I disagree: unless it's a very specific situation like failing a vault in a Sortie Spy mission or getting hit by Radiation status, the worst a bad player can do is just slow everyone else down (and even then, not by that much in most cases). The worst a player can usually do against their teammates in a mission is to go AFK, and even then players can generally take care of themselves enough to go through the mission without too much issue, and only have to wait a minute at extraction. Limbo, however, can actively get in the way of his teammates in a variety of ways, as mentioned above, and can still do that even when honestly trying to help. That is why he has a reputation for being a frame with troll potential that no other frame has.

49 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Because that's so out of place in this game? If you remove it from him, it'll just be an Inaros, Grendel, dash wire Ivara, etc... 

I feel like people remember the couple limbo's that AFK'd while they were MR10 on Hydron, and then forget that this doesn't happen in the rest of the game.

I hardly run Hydron and most of the AFK Limbos I've seen have been outside of that node. It's not just the AFK Limbos that are a problem, but also the Limbos participating in missions and getting in other players' way, however unintentionally. Even a good Limbo will sometimes block their teammates in undesirable ways.

49 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Ah yes, this free invincibility and energy regen is so inconveniencing. Please, no more.

"Free invincibility" is only useful insofar as the player is in dire need of invulnerability within the next short period of time, at which point they have far easier tools at their disposal for making themselves invulnerable than hunting down an errant Rift portal somewhere in the map. Similarly, most players have so many tools to recover Energy that being unable to fully interact with the environment and enemies is usually not a worthy tradeoff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the spirit of it but I'm not sure the execution works for me. 

I was playing on Helene, I think, with a limbo player that was spamming their abilities like no tomorrow. While it wasn't ideal I found myself not as bothered by it as I thought I would.

I was rocking wisp and basically thought "well game on for shock motes".  Spent most of the time meleeing enemies if I wasn't sure what plane they were in.  Then I started applying my 4 whenever an enemy was in a different one (which happened often due to liberal use of 3rd ability).

Adjustment was easy and I think the only player who was perplexed by it was a low MR Rhino player who I am sure didn't know what Limbos' abilities are.

I think something as simple as "tenno weapons can damage enemies in the rift" but "Tenno in rift can only damage rifted enemies". Would solve most of the problems players have when playing with a Limbo.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

I think something as simple as "tenno weapons can damage enemies in the rift" but "Tenno in rift can only damage rifted enemies". Would solve most of the problems players have when playing with a Limbo.

The main problem with this is that players could just shoot enemies in Cataclysm from the outside, who would all be turned into sitting ducks, which would make Limbo even more overwhelmingly good in mission types like Defense and Interception. It also doesn't solve the problem of the Rift disabling interactions with the environment, and wouldn't quite fix players getting affected by the Rift when they don't want to be. It's one thing to be able to adjust to a disruptive frame, but the goal shouldn't be for a frame to just be tolerable after an amount of getting used to them, it should be for them to contribute positively to the enjoyment of a mission. If the best thing that can be said about Limbo is that he's not as bad once you get used to him, I just don't think that's good enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Even a good Limbo will sometimes block their teammates in undesirable ways.

Sans preventing using a data mass on a terminal, rarely is a Limbo in the way of anything that matters, and usually they're making the game more fun by letting me not worry about defending a 2k health operative.

And DE has given us plenty of tools to work with/around the Rift. Abilities go through it, you can roll out of his portal, operators/necramechs can't enter the rift, Stasis no longer freezes bullets, etc...

13 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

"Free invincibility" is only useful insofar as the player is in dire need of invulnerability within the next short period of time, at which point they have far easier tools at their disposal for making themselves invulnerable than hunting down an errant Rift portal somewhere in the map.

That's why it's free. If it happens it happens, you don't have to go looking for it. As much as you try to belittle it, it's a great buff (it also prevents enemy CC and eximus auras, such as energy drains) for any frame that uses abilities to interact with enemies.

And you act like it's such a big deal to roll once, just equip Amalgam Barrel Diffusion if you must.

3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

It also doesn't solve the problem of the Rift disabling interactions with the environment, and wouldn't quite fix players getting affected by the Rift when they don't want to be.

DE could easily fix the inability to interact with stuff like terminals, that's no a reason to dis Limbo's kit. Same way there's no reason why Titania can't open friendship doors in Razorwing.

And IMO in the same way with frames like Wisp, Trinity, Volt, etc... I think it's stupid when people complain that someone is buffing/supporting them. Unless a Limbo is purposely spamming you with Banish, or Rift Surging enemies needed to complete the mission, a Limbo with a (probably too big) Cataclysm on a MD terminal isn't ruining the game. As a rule, if you play in multiplayer, there will be other players with speed buffs, defense abilities (with mechanics to balance them), etc...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

Because that's so out of place in this game? If you remove it from him, it'll just be an Inaros, Grendel, dash wire Ivara, etc...

None of the frames you mention serve as example or come close to Limbo's rift invulnerability, Inaros is not immortal and i see some get downed even in Sorties levels where mobs have some sort of enhanced damage type, Grendel has no invulnerability or immunity of any sort so why even mention the meatball and Ivara is still targetable and damageable when on the Dashwire. When i complain of AFKing im not talking about Hydron, im talking about Sorties, Events and even some endurance that popup from time to time.

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

I feel like people remember the couple limbo's that AFK'd while they were MR10 on Hydron, and then forget that this doesn't happen in the rest of the game.

Again, im not complaining about AFKers in Hydron and i have seen players ranging from all MR levels afking with Limbo even in Sorties and Events.

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

Ah yes, this free invincibility and energy regen is so inconveniencing. Please, no more.

If it gets in the way of me killing enemies or completing my objectives then yes, its an inconvenience, especially if you consider the fast pace of the game and that wile moving you will be bullet jumping making the rift useless as you slip out of it and wile defending targets said Limbos will be idling and not bouncing around like the rest of the team opening portals.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Sans preventing using a data mass on a terminal, rarely is a Limbo in the way of anything that matters, and usually they're making the game more fun by letting me not worry about defending a 2k health operative.

And DE has given us plenty of tools to work with/around the Rift. Abilities go through it, you can roll out of his portal, operators/necramechs can't enter the rift, Stasis no longer freezes bullets, etc...

In one breath you downplay the annoyance the Rift creates, and in the other you bring up how DE has given us "plenty of tools to work with/around the Rift", which is a pretty damning indictment of the mechanic if it needs so many workarounds just to be tolerable. Clearly, it's a mechanic that has caused problems in the past, and that still causes problems now, as pointed out by several people on this thread.

Quote

That's why it's free. If it happens it happens, you don't have to go looking for it.

You very much do have to go looking for it if you're specifically trying to become invulnerable through the Rift and Limbo hasn't cast anything on or near you. That in itself defeats the supposed "free invincibility" via a portal Limbo will drop behind usually by complete accident.

Quote

As much as you try to belittle it, it's a great buff (it also prevents enemy CC and eximus auras, such as energy drains) for any frame that uses abilities to interact with enemies.

It's a great buff... in which situation? Describe the situations in which Limbo's little Rift portal he leaves behind proves to be a great help in a manner that wouldn't be achieved by his active abilities. I'm not denying that invincibility is powerful (it's why Limbo cheese Defense missions), I'm just pointing out that entering the Rift via his passive portal is rarely done intentionally, because it's not his best means of giving those buffs when they'd serve best, and more often than not is done by accident and to the annoyance of the player who stepped in it.

Quote

And you act like it's such a big deal to roll once, just equip Amalgam Barrel Diffusion if you must.

It is a big deal, you're just downplaying it here because it's easy to set oneself up an ivory tower on the internet where moment-to-moment gameplay isn't a thing. Even a half-second of disruption is meaningful when that half-second can be used to do a lot of things in Warframe.

Quote

DE could easily fix the inability to interact with stuff like terminals, that's no a reason to dis Limbo's kit. Same way there's no reason why Titania can't open friendship doors in Razorwing.

If the fix is so easy, why hasn't it happened yet? What you don't seem to realize is that, outside of implementational difficulties you might not be aware of, there is a fundamental problem with Limbo's Rift mechanic in that it operates on disabling interaction: at its most elemental, the Rift works by preventing players and enemies from affecting one another (and also enemies from affecting objectives), and that's what both makes him so cheesy and disruptive. This is why I'm dissing Limbo's current kit, because the core principle it relies on is not healthy.

Quote

And IMO in the same way with frames like Wisp, Trinity, Volt, etc... I think it's stupid when people complain that someone is buffing/supporting them. Unless a Limbo is purposely spamming you with Banish, or Rift Surging enemies needed to complete the mission, a Limbo with a (probably too big) Cataclysm on a MD terminal isn't ruining the game. As a rule, if you play in multiplayer, there will be other players with speed buffs, defense abilities (with mechanics to balance them), etc...

This is a straw man, as few to no people complain about being buffed in general. The complaints arise when the buff in question is disruptive, i.e. when it forces the player to adjust to some change in their gameplay: this doesn't really happen with buffs to one's damage output or durability, because one can just keep on playing as per normal on more power, but it certainly happens with Limbo's Rift, an effect explicitly designed as a double-edged sword, which applies both buffs and debuffs to ally and enemy alike. It is also why Volt doesn't jive well with some players, because having one's speed drastically increased can make finer maneuvering more difficult, particularly in more cramped tilesets with lots of level geometry to snag on. Meanwhile, while some players do express dislike for Wisp's buffs (partly due to the speed mote, but also the lightning mote alerting enemies when one may not want it), that rarely goes without acknowledging that, unlike Limbo and Volt, Wisp's buffs are opt-in, and so players can generally choose to go the entire mission without touching her motes. Really, the problem isn't that some players are unhappy with any sort of buff (which is nonsense), but that some types of buffs, applied a certain way, disrupt play in a manner that some players find more tolerable than others. The solution isn't to misrepresent and dismiss those players, but to try to alter those very few disruptive effects so that they no longer induce disruption, a lesson DE learned and applied to every subsequent frame so far.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

None of the frames you mention serve as example or come close to Limbo's rift invulnerability, Inaros is not immortal and i see some get downed even in Sorties levels where mobs have some sort of enhanced damage type, Grendel has no invulnerability or immunity of any sort so why even mention the meatball and Ivara is still targetable and damageable when on the Dashwire. When i complain of AFKing im not talking about Hydron, im talking about Sorties, Events and even some endurance that popup from time to time.

An Inaros with nothing but an arcane grace will not die in the star chart while AFKing; A fully built Inaros will not die in sortie levels no matter how long he AFKs. And I was alluding that Ivara was in Prowl while on a dashwire in some corner, safe from collateral damage and energy drains. 

And if you're talking about rewards and not affinity, people will AFK with anything. There was an Ember that was in a Kuva Flood today, that AFK'd at spawn. She then proceeded to die and bleedout, and I'm pretty sure she still got the kuva. So your complaint really has no foundation from what I'm seeing, and will forever happen in a grind based game where you can't kick people (Limbo or not).

1 hour ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

If it gets in the way of me killing enemies or completing my objectives then yes, its an inconvenience

Those 0.5 seconds to roll once don't matter. Especially since you don't have the reaction speed to avoid the portal in the first place, so then 0.5 seconds really doesn't mean anything to you. (Most people don't have this reaction time, but I phrased it this way to show how silly complaining about 0.5 seconds is.)

1 hour ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

and wile defending targets said Limbos will be idling and not bouncing around like the rest of the team opening portals.

Why would an idle Limbo be making portals?

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

In one breath you downplay the annoyance the Rift creates, and in the other you bring up how DE has given us "plenty of tools to work with/around the Rift"

Yes, an exception. Telling you "99" ways that something works and only 1 way that it doesn't, does not a contradiction make.

Not to mention that I said DE could easily fix this one thing. But unless there is a massive community uproar, almost never do we get QoL updates like these.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

You very much do have to go looking for it if you're specifically trying to become invulnerable through the Rift and Limbo hasn't cast anything on or near you. That in itself defeats the supposed "free invincibility"

^ This however, is a contradiction. When you find a dollar on the sidewalk you weren't scouring the town for it, you just stumbled upon it.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

It's a great buff... in which situation? Describe the situations in which Limbo's little Rift portal he leaves behind proves to be a great help in a manner that wouldn't be achieved by his active abilities.

... Anytime I don't care about dealing damage (such as running to the next MD terminal). Becoming God as any frame that deals damage through abilities (of which that's about half the roster). And any other time you can think that invincibility, energy regen, status immunity, aura immunity, etc... would be useful.

And never have I been in a premade that relies on a Limbo casting Banish. Cataclysm is nice, but sometimes I don't want to be stationary with the rift... such as running between excavations.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

It is a big deal, you're just downplaying it here because it's easy to set oneself up an ivory tower on the internet where moment-to-moment gameplay isn't a thing. Even a half-second of disruption is meaningful when that half-second can be used to do a lot of things in Warframe.

Like I said to the other guy in a purposefully jerk way, if you didn't have the reaction time to avoid the portal in the first place, 0.5 seconds isn't impactful to your level of play.

You are definitely the one up-playing things. And one, I don't ever recall at time where a portal disrupted my play, because they are no where near plentiful. And two, how much can it really disrupt when you're given 15 seconds of God mode?

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

If the fix is so easy, why hasn't it happened yet?

Why'd it take however many years for Kubrows to get vacuum? I addressed this above.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

This is a straw man, as few to no people complain about being buffed in general.

Even checking only like 20 threads once a day, I see people weekly complaining that there should be some way to never be affected by Volt's speed, Wisp haste mote, etc... and that there might as well be a way to opt out of all buffs. Just because something is forced on you doesn't always mean it's bad... but it is usually indicative that balancing is at play.

There are people that say stuff like Warding Halo's augment makes the game too easy, so they never want to have it.

I've even had a conversation with a guy that hates abilities like Oberon's renewal. Not because of the buff, but because it makes his frame look slightly green.

 

The vast majority of Limbo is either opt-in, easily opted-out, or limits interactions on par with what a frame like Frost does.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

a lesson DE learned and applied to every subsequent frame so far

No it isn't. Just recently Grendel was the last frame of 2019, and his Feast is waaaay worse than anything Limbo does at limiting interactivity with enemies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Yes, an exception. Telling you "99" ways that something works and only 1 way that it doesn't, does not a contradiction make.

If it worked, it would not need a workaround. That is the contradiction in your argument.

Quote

Not to mention that I said DE could easily fix this one thing. But unless there is a massive community uproar, almost never do we get QoL updates like these.

This isn't quite true, as DE does give us QoL improvements and responds to feedback regarding frames. Given that Limbo has been consistently complained about since his release for his Rift mechanic, including the way it disables interaction with the environment, it is likely the solution isn't as magically simple as you claim.

Quote

^ This however, is a contradiction. When you find a dollar on the sidewalk you weren't scouring the town for it, you just stumbled upon it.

Except I get to pocket the dollar and use it whenever I like. Limbo's Rift, by contrast, only has a limited duration on allies, and the innate portal isn't a convenient way to receive it when you need it in a hurry. Your analogy has no real relevance to the argument at hand, as merely stumbling upon limited-duration invincibility is not automatically and eternally useful.

Quote

... Anytime I don't care about dealing damage (such as running to the next MD terminal).

... this is your idea of "a great buff"? Resisting chip damage to your shields as you zoom from one objective to the next? Really now?

Quote

Becoming God as any frame that deals damage through abilities (of which that's about half the roster).

By all means, please do list "half the roster" of all our Warframes that rely on their abilities as their primary means of dealing damage, or who are at least designed to output meaningful ability damage. It'll also be interesting to see how many of these frames also have inherent access to survivability effects of their own.

Quote

And any other time you can think that invincibility, energy regen, status immunity, aura immunity, etc... would be useful.

That's the problem: I already have access to the majority of this in better amounts and for fewer tradeoffs, so the additional benefit is minimal. If you were arguing in an environment where those effects were hard to come by, for sure Limbo's Rift would be valued more, but we're having this discussion in a state of Warframe where all but two frames have an innate degree of invulnerability through shield gates and Spoiler Mode, as well as access to Energy generation through a variety of ways, plus access to enough power for most auras and status effects to not matter at most stages of the game. An addition to that which imposes severe tradeoffs that apply to far more relevant aspects of our play (e.g. our ability to kill enemies with our weapons) is therefore a hard sell.

Quote

And never have I been in a premade that relies on a Limbo casting Banish. Cataclysm is nice, but sometimes I don't want to be stationary with the rift... such as running between excavations.

So... do the Limbos in your premades not use Banish at all, or do you believe Limbo somehow doesn't provide access to invulnerability through easier means? Because if you're this concerned with staying alive during times when literally all you are doing is move from one objective to the next, it may not be that Limbo's little rift portal is this amazingly useful mechanic (especially if you're getting killed that quickly), but that you may not be using the tools at your disposal to avoid or resist chip damage, or are simply overstating its impact.

Quote

Like I said to the other guy in a purposefully jerk way, if you didn't have the reaction time to avoid the portal in the first place, 0.5 seconds isn't impactful to your level of play.

Putting aside how the portal itself easily blends into the background, it's not just the portal that requires rolling out of the Rift, as this also applies to Banish. 

Quote

You are definitely the one up-playing things.

I don't know, I'm not the one claiming to get endangered by chip damage on my way to the objective. What exactly am I "up-playing", and how?

Quote

And one, I don't ever recall at time where a portal disrupted my play, because they are no where near plentiful.

You do realize how profoundly this undermines your entire claim about them being somehow amazingly useful when moving in-between objectives, right? How exactly are those portals going to provide you with consistent and life-saving invulnerability at crucial times when they're "no where near plentiful"?

Quote

And two, how much can it really disrupt when you're given 15 seconds of God mode?

Because, as pointed out above, it shuts down interaction with enemies and the environment, plus imposes a constant visual and audio distortion. You may personally see no issue with this, but yours are not the only opinions held by members of the Warframe community.

Quote

Why'd it take however many years for Kubrows to get vacuum? I addressed this above.

Vacuum is a poor example given the clear ideological differences between DE and the playerbase that led to them dragging their feet over the implementation of Fetch. What exactly is it about the Rift shutting down environmental interaction that DE is ideologically attached to on the same level? Worth noting that there is a nonzero chance that the Rift may be hard-coded to disable environmental interaction, seeing how we still have blocking while in mid-air automatically trigger aim-gliding for that same reason.

Quote

Even checking only like 20 threads once a day, I see people weekly complaining that there should be some way to never be affected by Volt's speed,

Volt's Speed I am well aware, which is why I listed it as an example of a disruptive buff. This is why you should read responses in full before writing your own.

Quote

Wisp haste mote,

Really? Where?

Quote

etc... and that there might as well be a way to opt out of all buffs.

And which ones are cited as examples of buffs that players should have the option to opt out of?

Quote

Just because something is forced on you doesn't always mean it's bad... but it is usually indicative that balancing is at play.

Again, this is the entire point of my paragraph, which you clearly did not read properly before responding. I fully agree with you that not every buff is a bad thing to have, which is why the near-totality of players don't complain about the near-totality of buffs in Warframe, but the implementation of certain buffs is precisely why they are seen as disruptive, as is the case of Volt's Speed and Limbo's Rift, which have potential or real negative effects and are imposed on other players who then have to opt out of them.

Quote

There are people that say stuff like Warding Halo's augment makes the game too easy, so they never want to have it.

I'll be curious to see who really makes that kind of argument, and why they're not going solo if they want more of a challenge, but in the meantime that is clearly not an argument of a buff being disruptive. These hypothetical people may think that the buff is too good, for whichever reason, but that is different from having some unpleasant effect imposed on oneself by an ally.

Quote

I've even had a conversation with a guy that hates abilities like Oberon's renewal. Not because of the buff, but because it makes his frame look slightly green.

And that person's issue with the cosmetic effects of certain warframe abilities is relevant to a discussion on buff mechanics... how?

Quote

The vast majority of Limbo is either opt-in, easily opted-out, or limits interactions on par with what a frame like Frost does.

But this is simply not true: the only opt-in is Limbo's innate portal, which can easily be hit by accident in crowded, static fights, or just when it blends into the background, and the only way to opt out of Cataclysm is to either stay outside of the bubble or enter Spoiler Mode. Even then, one cannot opt out of enemies and bits of the environment being affected by the Rift, even though that can have negative consequences for Limbo's allies. I can agree with you that Frost's bubble blocking fire from the outside is annoying, and needn't exist, but that is nowhere near as disruptive as Limbo's Rift. Worth noting as well that that specific effect on Frost gets routinely criticized, with many users over the years calling for its removal.

Quote

No it isn't. Just recently Grendel was the last frame of 2019, and his Feast is waaaay worse than anything Limbo does at limiting interactivity with enemies.

How?

Edited by Teridax68
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

No it isn't. Just recently Grendel was the last frame of 2019, and his Feast is waaaay worse than anything Limbo does at limiting interactivity with enemies.

It sounds like youre speaking from a bit of bias here. Everybody knows grendel gets a pass because he doesnt stop enemy spawns when he eats eneimes. So him feasting just makes the game feel like he is getting kills, meaning that if he was getting kills or feasting, both scenarios are the same where you would have to simply find a new enemy to kill after he feast or get a kill. No frustration possible there unless you hat when players get kills.

Limbo on the other hand, is going to be stopping enemy spawns per enemy he has not killed, with limbo you can literally pause a defense mission, or slow down life support capsule drops in a survival mission, if your teammates didnt build for energy orare not using damage ability based warframes like Harrow. I've done it to some mr20+ friends, where I just had the last 20-30 enemies rifted while my allies sat there cursing me out.

Also, when grendel eats an enemy, theyre gone from his allies screen. Limbos rifted enemies are still visible and easy to confuse with unrifted enemies. So if you got a knucklehead spamming banish or rift surge, it creates an enviroment that is as frustrating as lagging where your bullets feel like "ghost bullets". Nobody likes that.

 

Those were a lot of words but what was pointed out were really obvious differences between the 2. I feel theres a hint of bias here keeping you from seeing it. Try trolling some friends with limbo, then try it with any other frame. No one can do it as bad as a limbo can. Especially not Grendel, he cant even come close to pausing a defense mission or messing up life support. Especially against the players without enough energy or damaging abilities to do anything about it

Edited by (PSN)Frost_Nephilim
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

It sounds like youre speaking from a bit of bias here. Everybody knows grendel gets a pass because he doesnt stop enemy spawns when he eats eneimes. So him feasting just makes the game feel like he is getting kills, meaning that if he was getting kills or feasting, both scenarios are the same where you would have to simply find a new enemy to kill after he feast or get a kill. No frustration possible there unless you hat when players get kills.

So the change to let allies shoot into Hydroid's puddle was unfounded, and with Grendel it wasn't just DE literally making the same mistake again? They are literally the same type of CC, and do not recall hearing information where either increase the amount of enemies that can spawn.

And like someone brought up already, the easiest thing to do is to just let people shoot into the rift, but not out of it. Every other complaint I've seen is unfounded (but IMO feel free to rework Rift Surge).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

So the change to let allies shoot into Hydroid's puddle was unfounded, and with Grendel it wasn't just DE literally making the same mistake again? They are literally the same type of CC, and do not recall hearing information where either increase the amount of enemies that can spawn.

And like someone brought up already, the easiest thing to do is to just let people shoot into the rift, but not out of it. Every other complaint I've seen is unfounded (but IMO feel free to rework Rift Surge).

I said that grendels interference with enemies is less problematic than limbos do to the reason listed above

Your response addresses none of those reasons. With my previous comment, the only reasonable conclusion you could draw from how i would feel about hydroids change would have been that it is good instead of unfounded.... it slows players down less due to their ability to kill the enemies in the puddle and doesnt cause players to mistakenly target things. My previous comment says that 'not slowing killis down and not creating false targets' are good things. Hydroid's changes to his puddle supports those reasons so, theres no reason to think i think his change is unfounded as opposed to being a good and reasonable change...

Or to even bring him up

 

Edited by (PSN)Frost_Nephilim
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

They are literally the same type of CC, and do not recall hearing information where either increase the amount of enemies that can spawn.

I didnt say it increases it, i said it doesnt stop it. Again, freeze every enemy with limbo in a defense and watch how you wont be able to progress to the next wave and even be able to stop enemy spawns until those enemies are killed.

With warframes like grendal and Revenant this is not possible, as their CC on enemies basically count as kills, allowing defense waves to progress and enemies to continue to spawn. 

Were you not aware of this?

Edited by (PSN)Frost_Nephilim
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

it slows players down less due to their ability to kill the enemies in the puddle and doesnt cause players to mistakenly target things. My previous comment says that 'not slowing killis down and not creating false targets' are good things. Hydroid's changes to his puddle supports those reasons so, theres no reason to think i think his change is unfounded as opposed to being a good and reasonable change...

Or to even bring him up

Because putting enemies in another dimension is the same thing Grendel and Hydroid do. So why is it fine for Grendel to prevent allies from accessing those enemies, and not Hydroid?

10 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I didnt say it increases it, i said it doesnt stop it. Again, freeze every enemy with limbo in a defense

14 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

or slow down life support capsule drops in a survival mission

You also brought up survival (and made some edits after I quoted you). So if the game considers enemies in Grendels stomach to be dead (without them actually being so, cause he can just throw them up), then that means the game would have to spawn more enemies than it normally would... or else your life support claim makes no sense.

10 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

With warframes like grendal and Revenant this is not possible, as their CC on enemies basically count as kills, allowing defense waves to progress and enemies to continue to spawn.

The game is more than just defense. And by that logic you should have just as much of a problem with frame like Nidus, Nyx, any frame with Mind Control, etc... because they can prevent wave progression just as easily as Limbo, and similarly their enemies are "still visible and frustrating".

Not to mention that in my response to you, I provided an easy solution for this problem you have (one that also maintains Limbo's balance).

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-06-16 at 7:49 AM, Teridax68 said:

The main problem with this is that players could just shoot enemies in Cataclysm from the outside, who would all be turned into sitting ducks, which would make Limbo even more overwhelmingly good in mission types like Defense and Interception.

You can do that already. If you're banished, you can shoot targets inside cataclysm as they're on the same plane as you even though you're shooting from outside the event horizon. Minimum range Limbos do this on choke points. You just plop the bubble on a choke point, stay outside of it but in the rift, then when something gets caught in it, you shoot them and they can't shoot you.

Grendel's 1 has a same mechanic to Limbo by taking out enemies from the battle field. When he eats enemies, no one can attack them but then no one needs to. The enemies get damaged and die on their own or Grendel suffers energy cost and releases the enemy automatically. Maybe if Limbo had a consequence for keeping enemies in the rift, like he uses up energy over time per enemy but is balanced out with the enemy taking DoT, he can't keep enemies locked in the rift for very long. The enemy would either die on their own or Limbo would release the enemy when he runs out of energy.

Edited by (PSN)mahoshonenfox
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Because putting enemies in another dimension is the same thing Grendel and Hydroid do. So why is it fine for Grendel to prevent allies from accessing those enemies, and not Hydroid?

You still missed it. If this isnt trolling then idk what to say... Im done with this conversation cause thats just ridiculous 🙄

Edited by (PSN)Frost_Nephilim
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was a bit suspicious of a possible rework, but after reading the post, I have to say, I'm impressed, this is a very thoughtful rework. Though I am surprised that the way you wrote his 4, it doesn't put rift status on enemies in a spherical area. Other than that though, I would not hate this rework at all.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Revisiting this thread.  I think while what is proposed is definitely well thought out.  It still doesn't sit well with me.

I believe the reasoning is that it comes from a place of "this thing other people do annoys me" "So lets change things so they can't do it"

I think restructuring this from a perspective of "I want to play limbo more but can't because this often annoys other players. So if we change this. I can play him more"

example rift walk if no longer applicable to his passive should still be accessible in some way.

His 4 should still be a defensive ability at it's core over a damage one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DrLego said:

I was a bit suspicious of a possible rework, but after reading the post, I have to say, I'm impressed, this is a very thoughtful rework. Though I am surprised that the way you wrote his 4, it doesn't put rift status on enemies in a spherical area. Other than that though, I would not hate this rework at all.

Thank you for the kind words! Regarding the 4, I didn't put any wording there because it's covered by the passive: because enemies hit by Limbo's abilities are applied the Rift status, Cataclysm applies Rift status to every enemy within, retaining its use as persistent AoE crowd control.

5 hours ago, (PSN)mahoshonenfox said:

You can do that already. If you're banished, you can shoot targets inside cataclysm as they're on the same plane as you even though you're shooting from outside the event horizon. Minimum range Limbos do this on choke points. You just plop the bubble on a choke point, stay outside of it but in the rift, then when something gets caught in it, you shoot them and they can't shoot you.

This requires being made to reenter the Rift after leaving Cataclysm's area of effect, which toggles you out of the Rift when you do so. If you're not Limbo and are playing in a pub match, it is unlikely you're going to receive a Banish just for this purpose.

Quote

Grendel's 1 has a same mechanic to Limbo by taking out enemies from the battle field. When he eats enemies, no one can attack them but then no one needs to. The enemies get damaged and die on their own or Grendel suffers energy cost and releases the enemy automatically.

Enemies eaten by Grendel count as killed for purposes of advancing missions like Defense and Interception. The same does not apply to enemies stunned by Limbo, which is why the latter can freeze large groups of enemies using his much larger range.

Quote

Maybe if Limbo had a consequence for keeping enemies in the rift, like he uses up energy over time per enemy but is balanced out with the enemy taking DoT, he can't keep enemies locked in the rift for very long. The enemy would either die on their own or Limbo would release the enemy when he runs out of energy.

I could be on board with this, though this would only potentially fix one among many other problems with Limbo's Rift mechanic, including all the other bits of its interaction with enemies.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

Revisiting this thread.  I think while what is proposed is definitely well thought out.  It still doesn't sit well with me.

I believe the reasoning is that it comes from a place of "this thing other people do annoys me" "So lets change things so they can't do it"

I think restructuring this from a perspective of "I want to play limbo more but can't because this often annoys other players. So if we change this. I can play him more"

example rift walk if no longer applicable to his passive should still be accessible in some way.

I can get behind this, though I also feel the reasonings are interchangeable: the key intent I had behind this rework concept was how to change Limbo in such a way that he could do all of the fun parts of his kit (banish enemies to another plane, freeze them all in place, spread around his Rift) minus the problematic bits (i.e. the Rift being a double-edged sword for allies as well as himself, and him being able to practically AFK through Defense and Interception), and plus some extra things, such as more well-rounded utility. At the end of the day, Limbo inconveniencing allies and cheesing missions is a problem, so it should be about improving gameplay for everyone if possible, including Limbo himself.

Quote

His 4 should still be a defensive ability at it's core over a damage one.

This is likely a moving parts kind of situation where the wording of a single ability can be misleading in isolation: on its own, Cataclysm as I wrote it looks like a pure damage ability, but I made its damage current health-based precisely so that it wouldn't be able to nuke people on its own. Instead, the ability is meant to pair up with Limbo's passive: because his abilities apply Rift status to enemies hit, Cataclysm would, above all, apply that Rift status to every enemy caught inside, and so continually as long as it lasts. This is also why I added a bit of damage to the above Rift Surge, so that Limbo would not only be protecting himself and allies directly, but also disabling enemies in his vicinity. Every one of Limbo's abilities in the above kit would disable enemies via the Rift status, so there'd be a defensive function to everything he'd do. It's intended to be very similar to the current situation where Limbo uses Cataclysm and Banish to isolate and lock down enemies, minus the bit where it disables player-to-enemy interactions or renders defense objectives invulnerable.

Edited by Teridax68
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Thank you for the kind words! Regarding the 4, I didn't put any wording there because it's covered by the passive: because enemies hit by Limbo's abilities are applied the Rift status, Cataclysm applies Rift status to every enemy within, retaining its use as persistent AoE crowd control.

This requires being made to reenter the Rift after leaving Cataclysm's area of effect, which toggles you out of the Rift when you do so. If you're not Limbo and are playing in a pub match, it is unlikely you're going to receive a Banish just for this purpose.

Enemies eaten by Grendel count as killed for purposes of advancing missions like Defense and Interception. The same does not apply to enemies stunned by Limbo, which is why the latter can freeze large groups of enemies using his much larger range.

I could be on board with this, though this would only potentially fix one among many other problems with Limbo's Rift mechanic, including all the other bits of its interaction with enemies.

I can get behind this, though I also feel the reasonings are interchangeable: the key intent I had behind this rework concept was how to change Limbo in such a way that he could do all of the fun parts of his kit (banish enemies to another plane, freeze them all in place, spread around his Rift) minus the problematic bits (i.e. the Rift being a double-edged sword for allies as well as himself, and him being able to practically AFK through Defense and Interception), and plus some extra things, such as more well-rounded utility. At the end of the day, Limbo inconveniencing allies and cheesing missions is a problem, so it should be about improving gameplay for everyone if possible, including Limbo himself.

This is likely a moving parts kind of situation where the wording of a single ability can be misleading in isolation: on its own, Cataclysm as I wrote it looks like a pure damage ability, but I made its damage current health-based precisely so that it wouldn't be able to nuke people on its own. Instead, the ability is meant to pair up with Limbo's passive: because his abilities apply Rift status to enemies hit, Cataclysm would, above all, apply that Rift status to every enemy caught inside, and so continually as long as it lasts. This is also why I added a bit of damage to the above Rift Surge, so that Limbo would not only be protecting himself and allies directly, but also disabling enemies in his vicinity. Every one of Limbo's abilities in the above kit would disable enemies via the Rift status, so there'd be a defensive function to everything he'd do. It's intended to be very similar to the current situation where Limbo uses Cataclysm and Banish to isolate and lock down enemies, minus the bit where it disables player-to-enemy interactions or renders defense objectives invulnerable.

That certainly makes a lot of sense.  However, the most useful part of limbo for me is his ability to bypass corpus laser barriers.  For defense type mission I use it less for debuffing and more for making the objective invulnerable. One of the more difficult things for many defensive objectives is all the different places enemies can attack from. With Cataclysm active I have a much smaller more manageable area that I can lock down.  

Thus I would make his 4 if not a bubble of alternate dimension. An area that can't be attacked easily from outside the area of effect.  With perhaps an auto stasis effect for projectiles. Which disappear when the abillity ends.  Perhaps his three could be replaced with a toggle or duration ability that gives the same can't be hurt by enemies out of the rift, can bypass lasers, and to even out the new negative invisible to drones and cameras.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

That certainly makes a lot of sense.  However, the most useful part of limbo for me is his ability to bypass corpus laser barriers.  For defense type mission I use it less for debuffing and more for making the objective invulnerable. One of the more difficult things for many defensive objectives is all the different places enemies can attack from. With Cataclysm active I have a much smaller more manageable area that I can lock down.  

Thus I would make his 4 if not a bubble of alternate dimension. An area that can't be attacked easily from outside the area of effect.  With perhaps an auto stasis effect for projectiles. Which disappear when the abillity ends.  Perhaps his three could be replaced with a toggle or duration ability that gives the same can't be hurt by enemies out of the rift, can bypass lasers, and to even out the new negative invisible to drones and cameras.

I feel this is a case of what's desirable to players different from what's necessarily healthy: it's desirable to bypass laser barriers, which is why several frames have been given this ability over the years, but doing so in the way one usually can just means one need only pick certain frames in order to ignore a significant portion of the challenge in mission types like Spy, trivializing them as a result and making it essentially impossible to design challenging vaults. Similarly, it is obviously desirable to protect an objective from any and all possible attacks in a manner that's easy to do and repeat, but the end result is that winning at objective defense ends up being a matter of pressing 4+2 every near-minute or so, which similarly trivializes the mission and makes it less interesting to go through. Frames should be strong at certain things, but that strength should still require a degree of player participation I feel, otherwise that's how the game ends up losing its entertainment value.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Teridax68 said:

I feel this is a case of what's desirable to players different from what's necessarily healthy: it's desirable to bypass laser barriers, which is why several frames have been given this ability over the years, but doing so in the way one usually can just means one need only pick certain frames in order to ignore a significant portion of the challenge in mission types like Spy, trivializing them as a result and making it essentially impossible to design challenging vaults. Similarly, it is obviously desirable to protect an objective from any and all possible attacks in a manner that's easy to do and repeat, but the end result is that winning at objective defense ends up being a matter of pressing 4+2 every near-minute or so, which similarly trivializes the mission and makes it less interesting to go through. Frames should be strong at certain things, but that strength should still require a degree of player participation I feel, otherwise that's how the game ends up losing its entertainment value.

That would be true if all frames were going to be brought down to the level.  However, without that functionality, Limbo will end up the same as other frames that have gotten the same kind of treatment.  Forgotten. There are several popular frames that can trivialize content.  In a way I feel DE has simply accepted this and the frames' ability to make things easier becomes a choice of what you want to be easy. In the context of rework. If you compared the reworked abilities to frames that have a similar kit. Does Limbo if reworked how you describe become a viable choice to those frames.

Like say nova which has a 4th ability that I feel is spammed more often than Limbo in Defenses. Then you combine that with say.. Saryn.  I think this is a combo that has been seen quite often by players and it is one that in all starchart defensive type nodes. Becomes an AFK situation for nearly the whole squad. 

In the end I don't hate the idea of the rework.  I just don't see it as helpful if it only serves to remove him from the roster of frames people actually play with any kind of regularity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...