Limbo 3.0: Reworking the Rift

[Teridax68]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

That would be true if all frames were going to be brought down to the level.  However, without that functionality, Limbo will end up the same as other frames that have gotten the same kind of treatment.  Forgotten. There are several popular frames that can trivialize content.  In a way I feel DE has simply accepted this and the frames' ability to make things easier becomes a choice of what you want to be easy. In the context of rework. If you compared the reworked abilities to frames that have a similar kit. Does Limbo if reworked how you describe become a viable choice to those frames.

Like say nova which has a 4th ability that I feel is spammed more often than Limbo in Defenses. Then you combine that with say.. Saryn.  I think this is a combo that has been seen quite often by players and it is one that in all starchart defensive type nodes. Becomes an AFK situation for nearly the whole squad. 

In the end I don't hate the idea of the rework.  I just don't see it as helpful if it only serves to remove him from the roster of frames people actually play with any kind of regularity.

With this kind of reasoning it would be impossible to balance any frame without some unrealistically massive simultaneous batch of frame reworks. The only allowed change would be to power creep underperforming frames, which is precisely how we've gotten into the current mess. I don't agree that Limbo needs to cheese missions in order to be worth picking, especially if the above can mass-disable enemies and apply a bunch of utility and scaling damage, but if he does somehow end up being forgotten because he's not cheesy enough, then that should be even more of a reason to apply similar reworks to broken and overpowered frames.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

4 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

With this kind of reasoning it would be impossible to balance any frame without some unrealistically massive simultaneous batch of frame reworks. The only allowed change would be to power creep underperforming frames, which is precisely how we've gotten into the current mess. I don't agree that Limbo needs to cheese missions in order to be worth picking, especially if the above can mass-disable enemies and apply a bunch of utility and scaling damage, but if he does somehow end up being forgotten because he's not cheesy enough, then that should be even more of a reason to apply similar reworks to broken and overpowered frames.

I would say you are coming to what is the current reality and state of Warframe.  A constantly shifting meta of cheesiness. Ideally all frames should be reworked constantly for balance along with weapons. That's what many other looter shooter type games have specifically for the reason of making the the choices different but really the same in the end. Otherwise a specific playstyle becomes too powerful or easy and all the players flock to it. 

[Teridax68]

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

I would say you are coming to what is the current reality and state of Warframe.  A constantly shifting meta of cheesiness. Ideally all frames should be reworked constantly for balance along with weapons. That's what many other looter shooter type games have specifically for the reason of making the the choices different but really the same in the end. Otherwise a specific playstyle becomes too powerful or easy and all the players flock to it. 

Okay, so in that case, we should be reworking more frames with the intent of making them less cheesy, instead of refusing to do so at all. The only way for this game to become less cheesy is if we address the cheese, and that has to start somewhere.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, so in that case, we should be reworking more frames with the intent of making them less cheesy, instead of refusing to do so at all. The only way for this game to become less cheesy is if we address the cheese, and that has to start somewhere.

100% agree. We can encourage players take it into their own hands to create challenge for themselves.  However, human nature says if there is an easy way and a hard way. Everyone goes the easy way, especially when the result is the same. 

[DrLego]

Quote

Thank you for the kind words! Regarding the 4, I didn't put any wording there because it's covered by the passive: because enemies hit by Limbo's abilities are applied the Rift status, Cataclysm applies Rift status to every enemy within, retaining its use as persistent AoE crowd control.

Ah so it does! Well that's great.

[weeaboopotato]

My only main issue with this rework is it kinda flunks up his dimension hopping playstyle. Considering you removed the main thing that defined limbo which was jumping in and out of the rift whenever he pleases and re added the energy cost which DE has already removed. (Incase you didn't know entering the rift used to cost energy and was his 2nd ability) The status immunity is unnecessary considering how limbo plays. Other than that it seems a lot better its just, this isn't limbo. This rework you made just doesn't feel like limbo. At this point this isn't a rework it's an overhaul.

[weeaboopotato]

On 2021-06-16 at 7:32 AM, Teridax68 said:

Indeed, that's one of the gripes I listed. Limbo in general just operates through cheese in almost every facet of his kit, which is why I was stumped for years on how he could possibly change for the better without losing his identity.

The main problem is that he can make teammates not be able to hit anything outside of the rift. Which can be changed by simply giving him an ability that allows him to deal damage outside of the rift or create an opening where teammates can shoot out of the rift. He has no issues with defense, survivability, utility and support. I have seen multiple suggestions throughout the forums that can fix that while also keeping his identity intact. For example, there was this one idea where if that now allies can be inflicted with rift surge, but shooting outside a rift bubble temporarily takes them out of the rift and they get taken in immediately after they stop. Or the idea where a rift tear can be made if someone performs banish while in a cataclysm bubble, they will create a tear in the bubble where projectiles can be shot through to damage things outside of the bubble. 

[Teridax68]

4 hours ago, weeaboopotato said:

The main problem is that he can make teammates not be able to hit anything outside of the rift. Which can be changed by simply giving him an ability that allows him to deal damage outside of the rift or create an opening where teammates can shoot out of the rift.

As already stated, the problem with making the Rift purely beneficial in the current state is that this would fully trivialize gameplay with Limbo around. A Limbo that could let allies kill enemies regardless of differences in the Rift is basically a Limbo that can make allies permanently invincible and enemies permanently disabled, which I hope you'll agree is probably not a good idea.

4 hours ago, weeaboopotato said:

He has no issues with defense, survivability, utility and support. I have seen multiple suggestions throughout the forums that can fix that while also keeping his identity intact. For example, there was this one idea where if that now allies can be inflicted with rift surge, but shooting outside a rift bubble temporarily takes them out of the rift and they get taken in immediately after they stop.

I fail to see how this would meaningfully improve Limbo, given that this kind of mechanic appears both confusing (on an already confusing ability) and intentionally incapable of solving the problem it would aim to address, since allies would still be temporarily kicked out of the Rift.

4 hours ago, weeaboopotato said:

Or the idea where a rift tear can be made if someone performs banish while in a cataclysm bubble, they will create a tear in the bubble where projectiles can be shot through to damage things outside of the bubble. 

This similarly would address the problem only incompletely, while favoring camping playstyles where players would just huddle around a Cataclysm bubble and kill enemies from the safety of their own invulnerability.

4 hours ago, weeaboopotato said:

My only main issue with this rework is it kinda flunks up his dimension hopping playstyle. Considering you removed the main thing that defined limbo which was jumping in and out of the rift whenever he pleases and re added the energy cost which DE has already removed. (Incase you didn't know entering the rift used to cost energy and was his 2nd ability)

I am well aware, which is why the 3 on my kit is closer in theme to Limbo 1.0 than the current Limbo (so still Limbo). Putting aside how "jumping in and out of the Rift whenever he pleases" is both not part of the original Limbo's playstyle and is criticized to this day for its implementation, the reason my version has an Energy cost is simply because it's invincibility without downsides for a duration, and so absolutely should cost something. I don't think it's healthy for Limbo to be able to render himself permanently invincible for most of a mission at no cost, and him being able to do so is one of the many ways he can completely ignore any and all interaction with the content within.

4 hours ago, weeaboopotato said:

The status immunity is unnecessary considering how limbo plays. Other than that it seems a lot better its just, this isn't limbo. This rework you made just doesn't feel like limbo. At this point this isn't a rework it's an overhaul.

This is fair enough; if the elements you believe are key to Limbo are the ones I'm removing, then it stands to reason that this kit wouldn't be Limbo to you. I did specifically try to remove only the bits that make him unhealthy, namely his cheese and troll potential, but I can understand why that wouldn't go down well.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

On 2021-06-17 at 6:56 PM, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

100% agree. We can encourage players take it into their own hands to create challenge for themselves.  However, human nature says if there is an easy way and a hard way. Everyone goes the easy way, especially when the result is the same. 

 

On 2021-06-17 at 6:52 PM, Teridax68 said:

Okay, so in that case, we should be reworking more frames with the intent of making them less cheesy, instead of refusing to do so at all. The only way for this game to become less cheesy is if we address the cheese, and that has to start somewhere.

What if DE just made operators be the ones designed to make the game challenging? Choosing to go operator only would become a new option where you can only use certain types of weapons (that would be considered balanced) and have a limited amount of balanced abilities that keep you from blasting through content with too much cheese?

The reward part of accepting such a risk could be having your resources doubled.

Maybe even add some new special alerts to the game involving the sentients, requiring the player to go in operator only. Rewarding the player with things like an Instant max level battery thingy that you can use on a warframe that you dont feel like leveling, or some new cosmetics and weapons for your operator

 

That way players can both choose to play the game with either intense power fantasy or a more fair playground.

[keikogi]

This is a better limbo than limbo but it´s not limbo. What I mean by this statement, well it´s a better and healthier (game wise ) implementation of theme but unfortunately it´s not limbo because it lacks the BS limbo has. I really feel limbo occupies a design space where the game can´t allow him to work because he works outside off the game rules since enemies do not have enough “skill type damage” to make the riff mechanic not free invulnerability that allows you to do damage.

Did quite a few reworks a while a ago and I´ve noticed that the last you changed (while fixing the problems )  the better reception you got. Here are 3 examples.

My simplest rework is perhaps the best receive one is the atlas rework. It changed as little as possible.

My other well received one is the frost one that I got surprised I´ve managed it with only 1 overall on a skill

 

 

But the rework I think the most creative and well done got mixed receptions

 

 

 

 

[Teridax68]

7 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

What if DE just made operators be the ones designed to make the game challenging? Choosing to go operator only would become a new option where you can only use certain types of weapons (that would be considered balanced) and have a limited amount of balanced abilities that keep you from blasting through content with too much cheese?

This is something you can already do, as Operators are significantly worse at combat than our warframes. However, few to no people choose to run missions in Operator mode only, because ultimately we play to win. If you give a player the option to run content either normally or at a disadvantage for the same reward, there's few reasons they'd have to choose the latter, especially in multiplayer. This is why we can't just ignore the game's balance and design problems, and instead need to address them directly.

12 minutes ago, keikogi said:

This is a better limbo than limbo but it´s not limbo. What I mean by this statement, well it´s a better and healthier (game wise ) implementation of theme but unfortunately it´s not limbo because it lacks the BS limbo has. I really feel limbo occupies a design space where the game can´t allow him to work because he works outside off the game rules since enemies do not have enough “skill type damage” to make the riff mechanic not free invulnerability that allows you to do damage.

If Limbo can only be Limbo if he breaks the game, then it may ultimately be necessary to have a not-Limbo that's as close otherwise to the frame as possible than a frame whose existence is defined by unhealthy he is. I do also disagree, though, because I've made the Rift mechanic about as similar as can get without it breaking the game, with his most common actives having the exact same mode of cast. 

12 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Did quite a few reworks a while a ago and I´ve noticed that the last you changed (while fixing the problems )  the better reception you got. Here are 3 examples.

My simplest rework is perhaps the best receive one is the atlas rework. It changed as little as possible.

Of course your reworks will get the best reception if the only thing they propose is to straight-up buff the frame without altering their mechanics in any meaningful way. Those changes won't necessarily fix the frame if their issues run deeper, but people on the internet are terrified of change and, on here especially, are ready to interpret anything as a nerf. That is why people initially attacked the official Nezha and Wukong reworks for that same reason before they released, despite the fact that both were the best thing that happened to those respective frames. I'm not here to farm upvotes from forumites, I'm here to post responses, analyses, and concepts I think could genuinely move discussion forward, and contribute positively to the game if there ever happens to be an impact. Optics are important to a degree, and I agree a rework shouldn't make drastic changes for their own sake, but at the end of the day, a rework should nonetheless aim to solve the problems of the thing it's reworking, otherwise there's no point.

12 minutes ago, keikogi said:

But the rework I think the most creative and well done got mixed receptions

 

Here's why your thread didn't go down as well as the others:

• Minor changes to frames are appropriate for the Warframe feedback subforum, but your thread suggests a total conversion, which is better-suited to the Fan Concepts subforum.
• Similarly, for a thread on a feedback subforum, yours gave very little criticism or analysis of the frame you were overhauling, meaning players either were on board with your idea already, or weren't.
• Because you've proposed a completely new take on Vauban, your concept is one out of a potential infinity that could apply to him, which creates just as many opportunities for players to disagree because they have a different vision.
• There are some legitimately objectionable suggestions in your concept, such as a slow-moving, arcing projectile that has to hit a target directly in order to work.

So yeah, when you take a creative risk and suggest a departure in any way from the feature you're proposing to change, you're inevitably going to have to stick your neck out and deal with a bit more controversy from people who disagree with your vision, or simply don't want change. I don't think that's a valid reason to never suggest heavier reworks at all (I made a thread proposing to remake our damage system that went down well, as you know), it just means that one should take the time to consider if the scope of the changes one wants to implement is necessary, and get ready for disagreement on here (ideally in a constructive manner that moves the topic of discussion forward).

[keikogi]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

If Limbo can only be Limbo if he breaks the game, then it may ultimately be necessary to have a not-Limbo that's as close otherwise to the frame as possible than a frame whose existence is defined by unhealthy he is. I do also disagree, though, because I've made the Rift mechanic about as similar as can get without it breaking the game, with his most common actives having the exact same mode of cast. 

I like to call limbo, Octavia and chroma the messy 3. All incredibly good but poorly designed at the same time. Doomed to be popular good but have terrible gameplay loops. Two timer refreshers and a guy with the literal pause button for the game. Limbo was just a bad idea from the start because enemies don´t have damage skills (that the riffs threats as such ) so the whole premise off the riff is fundamentally broken, even before the time stoping non sense was there , strategies using banish and damage skill where already deployed to ignore the game damage scaling.

Never really bothered to try to address them because I know people don´t even want them to be fixed.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Of course your reworks will get the best reception if the only thing they propose is to straight-up buff the frame without altering their mechanics in any meaningful way. Those changes won't necessarily fix the frame if their issues run deeper

Frost is just weak , Atlas had a few issues adressed trought small changes. Frost pretty much got synergy with cold weapons and energy sustain and durability ( smoll globe ). It jsut a few extra options to make the kit click well together. . Frost is not necessarly badly desined ,it´s jut old and aged somewhat badly.  I even did another version off the rework with a bit off sub zero rebrading ( ice weapons doing the same thing they to now just with more visual flair ) and a reworked cold proc. 

Atals did hae a few true issues mainly in tectonics being fundamentaly to niche to warrant a skill slot and his 4th just being weak sauce as it was. 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Here's why your thread didn't go down as well as the others:

• Minor changes to frames are appropriate for the Warframe feedback subforum, but your thread suggests a total conversion, which is better-suited to the Fan Concepts subforum.

The problem is vauban did I have problem that could be only adressed trough a overall because you cant ajust 4 skill that throws a ball that does cc with minor ajustments. 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Similarly, for a thread on a feedback subforum, yours gave very little criticism or analysis of the frame you were overhauling, meaning players either were on board with your idea already, or weren't.

Out off my own experience , explaining yourself does surprinsily little to help you own cause. That´s why I´ve reducing the size off my explanations to bullet poins instead off long paragrahps. If people discuss any off the poins I will add the futher poins as a spoiler tab 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Because you've proposed a completely new take on Vauban, your concept is one out of a potential infinity that could apply to him, which creates just as many opportunities for players to disagree because they have a different vision.

Yep 

People where really adamant about turret vauban , just as much as DE where about not putting turrets in game( I till find funny they did not call protea turret , a turret during her reveal devstream ) 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

There are some legitimately objectionable suggestions in your concept, such as a slow-moving, arcing projectile that has to hit a target directly in order to work.

That skill got converted to targerting skill intead off trown. On the if section explaing the effects it says targeted not hit. Tought that was clear enought but was proven wrong given that Given that I had to explain that 3 times , I was clearly wrong. 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

So yeah, when you take a creative risk and suggest a departure in any way from the feature you're proposing to change, you're inevitably going to have to stick your neck out and deal with a bit more controversy from people who disagree with your vision, or simply don't want change. I don't think that's a valid reason to never suggest heavier reworks at all (I made a thread proposing to remake our damage system that went down well, as you know), it just means that one should take the time to consider if the scope of the changes one wants to implement is necessary, and get ready for disagreement on here (ideally in a constructive manner that moves the topic of discussion forward).

saw that thread , agree with quite a lot off what is in it. expecially the crit part. 

I´m used to that , i find it find people agree with my take that the only purpose energy server is to make the game unfun for new players but if you dare show that energy income is out off wack and try to adress it, well get ready to get some flack. 

 

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, keikogi said:

I like to call limbo, Octavia and chroma the messy 3. All incredibly good but poorly designed at the same time. Doomed to be popular good but have terrible gameplay loops. Two timer refreshers and a guy with the literal pause button for the game. Limbo was just a bad idea from the start because enemies don´t have damage skills (that the riffs threats as such ) so the whole premise off the riff is fundamentally broken, even before the time stoping non sense was there , strategies using banish and damage skill where already deployed to ignore the game damage scaling.

Never really bothered to try to address them because I know people don´t even want them to be fixed.

Players don't want strong frames to be fixed because they're strong and they don't want them to be made weaker, simple as that. This is why some players will defend frames like Saryn and Mesa to the death even though both arguably make gameplay less interesting for everyone involved in most missions they're in. This is also why many more people want Chroma to see changes, because Chroma isn't really that amazing right now, not even after his most recent "rework".

1 minute ago, keikogi said:

Frost is just weak , Atlas had a few issues adressed trought small changes. Frost pretty much got synergy with cold weapons and energy sustain and durability ( smoll globe ). It jsut a few extra options to make the kit click well together. . Frost is not necessarly badly desined ,it´s jut old and aged somewhat badly.  I even did another version off the rework with a bit off sub zero rebrading ( ice weapons doing the same thing they to now just with more visual flair ) and a reworked cold proc. 

Worth noting that as long as Limbo exists in his current state, Frost is never really going to shine, because his snow globe will never compete against a bubble with infinite health that makes everyone inside invincible and can be made to stun every enemy within. Frost is weak on his own, and I agree he could use some buffs (though numerical buffs alone won't prevent his 1 and 2 from being utterly redundant, nor his passive from being useless), but Frost does not operate in a vacuum, and competes with other frames on some of his strengths. If you want Frost to see more play and don't want to overhaul him, you have a vested interest in un-breaking Limbo.

1 minute ago, keikogi said:

Atals did hae a few true issues mainly in tectonics being fundamentaly to niche to warrant a skill slot and his 4th just being weak sauce as it was. 

Which would normally warrant more in-depth mechanical changes to both abilities to make sure they're strong, assuming one wants to keep them at all (Rumblers have very little thematic or mechanical relevance to the rest of Atlas's kit, imo). Merely buffing Tectonics isn't really going to cut it, since as you said, the ability is too niche and easily outdone at its one strength by other frame abilities.

1 minute ago, keikogi said:

The problem is vauban did I have problem that could be only adressed trough a overall because you cant ajust 4 skill that throws a ball that does cc with minor ajustments. 

I mean, you can, his rework is proof of this, though I do agree I would've taken a different direction. I would not, however, necessarily have given Vauban an Exalted Sentinel, which is the specific direction you took, and when you made the subjective decision to base Vauban around that new mechanic, that's when your thread stopped being feedback, and started to be a fan concept thread.

1 minute ago, keikogi said:

Out off my own experience , explaining yourself does surprinsily little to help you own cause. That´s why I´ve reducing the size off my explanations to bullet poins instead off long paragrahps. If people discuss any off the poins I will add the futher poins as a spoiler tab 

I've found the opposite: it helps to lay the groundwork by explaining what's wrong with the thing you're tackling and why it needs to change, particularly because criticism tends to be the common ground that will make people agree with you. What I have observed, however, is that when you propose some new suggestion, that's when people disagree and focus on that in their post, which is why lately I've kept my feedback threads and my concept threads separate, and linked one in the other instead. The advantage to an explanation is that it gets people on board with you, but also if someone decides to ignore everything and focus on attacking you, as some people on here are wont to do, it becomes easier to show their ignorance by pointing to the thing you wrote that they clearly ignored. 

1 minute ago, keikogi said:

That skill got converted to targerting skill intead off trown. On the if section explaing the effects it says targeted not hit. Tought that was clear enought but was proven wrong given that Given that I had to explain that 3 times , I was clearly wrong. 

The problem is literally in the first sentence of Smart Grenade's description: "Vauban throws a grenade like a baseball pitch." This implies that your projectile has a travel time and is free-thrown. A better formulation would have been "Vauban throws a grenade at the target enemy," as this would highlight from the very start that the ability is targeted (and, let's face it, nobody really cares whether Vauban's pitching his grenades like baseballs).

1 minute ago, keikogi said:

I´m used to that , i find it find people agree with my take that the only purpose energy server is to make the game unfun for new players but if you dare show that energy income is out off wack and try to adress it, well get ready to get some flack. 

This is one of the many unfortunate aspects of these forums, in that a lot of the people who post here hate the mere idea of nerfs. DE has spent so many years pushing rampant power creep as a way of placating players that it's bolstered this sense of entitlement over excessive power, even when that power is not conducive to greater fun. It thus becomes very difficult to have a sensible discussion on certain topics unless you make it clear you're not nerfing anything (which is impossible in some cases), because some people have no problem flaming the discussion until it eventually gets shut down by a moderation team that, by and large, doesn't seem to care about the community. It makes discussion of hot-button topics a minefield sometimes, but I still believe it's a risk worth taking if it means having a good conversation.

[keikogi]

 

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

n't want strong frames to be fixed because they're strong and they don't want them to be made weaker, simple as that. This is why some players will defend frames like Saryn and Mesa to the death even though both arguably make gameplay less interesting for everyone involved in most missions they're in. This is also why many more people want Chroma to see changes, because Chroma isn't really that amazing right now, not even after his most recent "rework".

I kind off blame DE for this one, they have been monkley pawing every wish players had. Frankly people just don´t want to see frame reworks period because DE track record is not a good one. To be fair the warframe comunity is aditected to power to the point people argue in good faith that if every weapon overkilled by 1 million it would be more balanced becaue the weapons that overkill by a billion would kill just as well ( pretty much wath people are saying over the melee nerfs ) 

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Worth noting that as long as Limbo exists in his current state, Frost is never really going to shine, because his snow globe will never compete against a bubble with infinite health that makes everyone inside invincible and can be made to stun every enemy within. Frost is weak on his own, and I agree he could use some buffs (though numerical buffs alone won't prevent his 1 and 2 from being utterly redundant, nor his passive from being useless), but Frost does not operate in a vacuum, and competes with other frames on some of his strengths. If you want Frost to see more play and don't want to overhaul him, you have a vested interest in un-breaking Limbo.

If he was just playable people would pick it because they want to play the game and limbo kind off turns it off. 

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

've found the opposite: it helps to lay the groundwork by explaining what's wrong with the thing you're tackling and why it needs to change, particularly because criticism tends to be the common ground that will make people agree with you. What I have observed, however, is that when you propose some new suggestion, that's when people disagree and focus on that in their post, which is why lately I've kept my feedback threads and my concept threads separate, and linked one in the other instead. The advantage to an explanation is that it gets people on board with you, but also if someone decides to ignore everything and focus on attacking you, as some people on here are wont to do, it becomes easier to show their ignorance by pointing to the thing you wrote that they clearly ignored. 

I kind off feel it vareis with currenty overall feelings off the comunity and subforum. I just really like the bullet point + spoilers aprouch becaue it good for people that just want to do a quick read and the ones that will go for a deep dive. Adimitedely it is a pain in the ass if I adress mutiple off my own points. Like I´ve experienced the pitch forks and praises but sugesting just adding combo chance as a stat for guns and add the same broken combo melee mods ( instead off making the whole convuluted arcane nonsense with unreliable buffs that enforce a linear play style even harder). At this time I did not get the pitch fork nor the praise , just dread people where not saying it was a bad sugestion people where just saying give up. 

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The problem is literally in the first sentence of Smart Grenade's description: "Vauban throws a grenade like a baseball pitch." This implies that your projectile has a travel time and is free-thrown. A better formulation would have been "Vauban throws a grenade at the target enemy," as this would highlight from the very start that the ability is targeted (and, let's face it, nobody really cares whether Vauban's pitching his grenades like baseballs).

I mindly anoyed with the juggling balls so it probably affected my writing to the point a made sure to expecify the thrown and not the mechanic

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is one of the many unfortunate aspects of these forums, in that a lot of the people who post here hate the mere idea of nerfs. DE has spent so many years pushing rampant power creep as a way of placating players that it's bolstered this sense of entitlement over excessive power, even when that power is not conducive to greater fun. It thus becomes very difficult to have a sensible discussion on certain topics unless you make it clear you're not nerfing anything (which is impossible in some cases), because some people have no problem flaming the discussion until it eventually gets shut down by a moderation team that, by and large, doesn't seem to care about the community. It makes discussion of hot-button topics a minefield sometimes, but I still believe it's a risk worth taking if it means having a good conversation.

I kind off feel it both stains for DE constantly underplaying nerfs so people always assume the wrost. Kuva nukor got a 40% reduction to its status output and around 20 reduction to its damage output and DE plays it off as a minor change. I know at the end off the day nukor will stronger than before due to the overall buffs  with the new mods but plaing the change as small is disingenous. Same goes for the melee nerfs, they were gun buffs , than minor nerfs than they became a 30% nerf across what was good. Also warframe has no ruler so the "overpowered" becames mudied term. What I mean by this we don´t have a single enemy or mission that considered the gold standard to judge dps. I don´t think it will ever be adressed but scaling DR will be so widely used that dps will become a non concern if things keep goiong in the direction they are.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

17 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is something you can already do

You dont get increased rewards for it? Nor is there any balance between operators and enemies. Dont have any weapons (unless you count amps), and operators are far too weak right now to deal with enemies as they are right now. Their abilities dont do much to make any fights between enemies engaging either

Its not in game at all

[Teridax68]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

You dont get increased rewards for it? Nor is there any balance between operators and enemies. Dont have any weapons (unless you count amps), and operators are far too weak right now to deal with enemies as they are right now. Their abilities dont do much to make any fights between enemies engaging either

Its not in game at all

There may not be special rewards for playing the game in Operator Mode only, but the difficulty is already there, precisely because amps and Operators are both weak against enemies our warframes can mow down. I'm not sure how you expect to balance operators to do well against level 100+ enemies without risking running into the same problems as our warframes.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

11 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm not sure how you expect to balance operators to do well against level 100+ enemies without risking running into the same problems as our warframes

You can make operators balanced without risking giving operators high damaging large aoe abilities, being overloaded with so much energy that it allows you to spam abilities back to back, shield gate abuse

Those problems above can be easily avoided. You just swap everything youd plan to make a warframe balanced to the operator instead. Your ideas for energy gaining, damage dealing, reasonable defenses, weapon buffs, etc....

 

What problems could you risk running into from that?

[Teridax68]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

You can make operators balanced without risking giving operators high damaging large aoe abilities, being overloaded with so much energy that it allows you to spam abilities back to back, shield gate abuse

Those problems above can be easily avoided. You just swap everything youd plan to make a warframe balanced to the operator instead. Your ideas for energy gaining, damage dealing, reasonable defenses, weapon buffs, etc....

 

What problems could you risk running into from that?

The simple issue here is: what enemy level do you expect Operators to be balanced against? Because by the nature of this game, content below this level would be too easy, and content above that level would be essentially impossible to run. Whichever challenge you'd be planning would thus only function on a thin slice of enemy levels. Also worth mentioning that Operators are full of cheese themselves, as they can go invisible/invulnerable for long periods of time, essentially fly across the map while invisible+invulnerable, have access to AoE through their amps, and also have free AoE hard crowd control on-demand through arcanes. As such, I'd argue they probably aren't really a good foundation for gameplay centered around them in Warframe.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

11 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

The simple issue here is: what enemy level do you expect Operators to be balanced against? Because by the nature of this game, content below this level would be too easy, and content above that level would be essentially impossible to run. Whichever challenge you'd be planning would thus only function on a thin slice of enemy levels. Also worth mentioning that Operators are full of cheese themselves, as they can go invisible/invulnerable for long periods of time, essentially fly across the map while invisible+invulnerable, have access to AoE through their amps, and also have free AoE hard crowd control on-demand through arcanes. As such, I'd argue they probably aren't really a good foundation for gameplay centered around them in Warframe.

All those issues mention could be worked on and i doubt theyd cause much of a fus except for those arcanes with free cc. Cooldown seems reasonable though granted arcane energize has one, still might cause a little fus but likely not much.

Idk, i just think they have potential. We got over 40 warframes out here, and just one operator that isnt the most useful or fun thing in the world to be. Feel like any balance that one would want to be put on a warframe like spam and big aoe ability limitations should be just geared towards them. Just seems easier.

Sorry for going so off topic

[Teridax68]

14 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

All those issues mention could be worked on and i doubt theyd cause much of a fus except for those arcanes with free cc. Cooldown seems reasonable though granted arcane energize has one, still might cause a little fus but likely not much.

This already sounds like the start to a lot of work just to balance what is ultimately a gimmick, at which point one might just apply that to warframes first.

14 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Idk, i just think they have potential. We got over 40 warframes out here, and just one operator that isnt the most useful or fun thing in the world to be. Feel like any balance that one would want to be put on a warframe like spam and big aoe ability limitations should be just geared towards them. Just seems easier.

Sorry for going so off topic

No worries at all, I feel you, as Operators are not in a great place, and never were. Personally I don't think they add much to the game, as they're clearly a tacked-on feature that was added without much thought given to how they'd meaningfully enhance our gameplay. Ideally, I'd like them to be better-integrated into the game, though I also feel they are secondary in importance to our frames..

[keikogi]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

No worries at all, I feel you, as Operators are not in a great place, and never were. Personally I don't think they add much to the game, as they're clearly a tacked-on feature that was added without much thought given to how they'd meaningfully enhance our gameplay. Ideally, I'd like them to be better-integrated into the game, though I also feel they are secondary in importance to our frames..

I really feel like if they stuck with the intial stick off operators ( taking over stuff ) we would have a far more interesting mechanic. The whole take over a razor maw bit is the most intersting peace off gameplay they ever ofered and if taking over stuff was avaibible and remotely effective it would have been a interesting gameplay loop , but DE decided to put than on the ground and they just made a weak warframe.