Revised Dev Workshop Release Date: June 18!

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

3 hours ago, Gaz_TTV said:

Bruh

+1

[Leo.lev]

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

The post clearly says Expansion. There are no nerfs to Helminth. 

 

Whipclaw's LoS change was clearly listed under QoL touch ups

Which is missing from the new updates log site? https://www.warframe.com/updates/pc/29-5-0

On 2020-11-19 at 11:39 PM, [DE]Megan said:

WARFRAME ABILITY CHANGES:

The first group in our “touch all Warframes” list! We aim to give each Warframe a little quality of life touch up and not laser focus on one Warframe at a time.

Khora

• There is now a minimal Line of Sight check on Whipclaw’s radial damage. 

 

[SteveCutler]

48 minutes ago, TheGreatKazein said:

What??? Archguns are pretty balanced and powerful across the board. What are you on about?

Mausolon is strong, but the others have been weaker than guns for a long time. They've been underpowered and need of a buff for ages. But even if that weren't the case, and they were balanced now, they'd still need a buff to be equally brought up alongside the primaries and secondaries as they get buffed.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

disappointing, but I hope that those extra 2 days will allow you to think of more ways to improve guns drastically but without making melee completely irrelevant. not an easy thing to do I'm sure, but I belioeve you guys can do it! we've had some great QoL changes in the past but there's more work to be done! also hoping we can get an idea on when these changes will start rolling out (will they begin with Sisters of Parvos, or will we have to wait until an interim update afterwards?), and if you're goign to use the Design Council/Test Cluster for additional feedback.

I look forward to seeing the workshop on the 18th!

[(PSN)Alphonso-Alonso]

21 minutes ago, Amebot said:

prepare for the mob. they're coming to tell us the game is ruined and they're quitting because they will only be able to do 7 trillion damage with their melee build, instead of 8.

Okay so I keep seeing this and the “get pop corn” memes. So imma answer this here- not because I expect you to care but because someone who might care will read and think about it-

 

1) you’re not helping the outrage, you’re emboldening people to be even more outrageous toward the devs. So stop draw more aggro in their direction because there’s nothing else to derive pleasure form in this game other than trolling your fellow Tenno. Some of us still enjoy the ninja aspects of the game and don’t want this to turn into Destiny 1.

 

2) the people who are most frustrated are those of us to play quietly, alone, not bothering anyone. We don’t min max, we don’t chase metas, the vast majority either can’t afford to or don’t want to put down that kinda plat to trade. So you either do the best you can to be relevant against damage sponge enemies or you grind for ridiculous amounts of time to get stuff you need. Never mind the fact that none of us are youtuber material to get a platform the devs will listen to.
 

And then there’s someone like Quiette shy, who is flagrantly ever unimpressed and resentful of the game mechanics at large, makes a video lampooning melee. The loud nail gets the hammer so to speak. Or however that saying goes. 

 

The meme video casts a bad light in the system, the devs look even worse and now everyone is penalized for this infraction. Including those of us who were just fine minding our own business and not bothering anyone in public. not doing the YouTube thing. Playing solo and avoiding groups who would probably not want anyone who isnt minmaxing into he first place. Who, you might be surprised to learn, rely on melee because we aren’t no-lifing this game to get mandatory mods or obscure meta mods for min maxed kuva fed weapons or toiling away in the relic grind to pay 1550k for god roll rivens.

So yeah, I think that entitles me to be just a **little** mad that external forces at large are dictating the way I play the game when I wasn’t the one infracting in the devs to begin with! And the fact that there’s a large number of people in this community who take pleasure in that really pisses me off. Nerfs always test your commitment to playing a game. But behavior like this? It really makes you question whether or not you want to be part of a community that celebrates the misfortune of others like this.

[General_Durandal]

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Helminth system expansion!

Can I make a warframe have more then 1 helminth power per loadout?

Can I use more then 1 power from each warframe?

I want to make a Revenant build that has Ember's Fire Blast, and Immolation,
as well as a Shield power like Snow Globe or Volt's Shield,
and maybe Meg's Pull all in the same loadout.

I'd also like "World on Fire" to return as a Helminth power.
Ember was my main lady till her rework.

World on Fire was never End-Game viable alone,
it was just a small extra DoT you can have which only slightly helped kill things.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

Should I expect the worst at this point?

I'll be honest with ya' DE, you aren't particularly elegant when it comes to balancing your game.

[quxier]

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

and Helminth system expansion!

After "eating" so many cats I bet she will grow.

Well, interesting. I cannot wait.

[vanaukas]

42 minutes ago, Leo.lev said:

 

Whipclaw's LoS change was clearly listed under QoL touch ups

Which is missing from the new updates log site? https://www.warframe.com/updates/pc/29-5-0

 

It was fixed like 1 or 2 months ago (and included, what's the point on bringing this? How does it relate to Helminth? Whipclaw doesn't even exist on helminth

 

[Nox_Terminus]

1 minute ago, vanaukas said:

It was fixed like 1 or 2 months ago (and included, what's the point on bringing this? How does it relate to Helminth? Whipclaw doesn't even exist on helminth

 

Because it sets a precedent of a 'nerf' being classified as a 'fix' when in reality it is definitively a nerf to how the ability functioned prior.

[vanaukas]

Just now, Nox_Terminus said:

Because it sets a precedent of a 'nerf' being classified as a 'fix' when in reality it is definitively a nerf to how the ability functioned prior.

By this logic, melee being unable to damage enemeis through walls and bojects is a nerf?

[Neo3602]

well at least the delay is only 2 days

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

11 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

By this logic, melee being unable to damage enemeis through walls and bojects is a nerf?

That did happen and was considered a nerf so...

[(NSW)Gamer-Steve]

Out of curiosity @[DE]Rebecca, are Sentinel weapons, Archmelee & Archguns (At least the first two) going to be considered for this as well, or will they be looked at in a future update? I can understand Archguns not being touched for now (I'm a bit surprised they don't have Exilus slots, considering there are a few Archgun mods that're Exilus-worthy), but I do think that Sentinels and Archmelee will need to be looked at sooner or later.
 

• I have some more in-depth thoughts on this here; I never had this answered from Devstream 154, but it's a bit of a read.
  Spoiler

  ^{( Copied from my post on that thread )}

   

  Regarding balancing Guns (Primary & Secondary weapons) and Melee, I do see why it’s happening, and I’m sure that the end goal is to have all weapons be reasonably balanced against one another (Not counting Rivens, those aren't quite the same topic as this kind of balance; Weapon balancing vs Mod-involved balancing).

  • (Small note, I was not aware that mods would be involved in the Melee - Gun balance when I first wrote this on the 154 thread, so I suppose you can narrow what I said down to "Riven Mod-involved" balancing, perhaps)

  
  In light of that, I do have one significant aspect of weapons to bring up for the Devstream: Exilus Slots.
  
  Primary and Secondary weapons already have unlockable Exilus slots with a weapon adapter, so they have that going for them. But that leaves two other main categories of weapons, Arch-weapons, and Melee. Assuming the end goal is to have all weapons be balanced, then they may not be truly balanced in and of themselves without access to all available slots, Exilus capability included.

  • This is merely a suggestion however, as it could be thought of as “Power Creep”, depending on how new Exilus mods are handled. Hypothetically, if a “powerful” mod became an Exilus version, it could have a slight reduction in drain capacity and its effects in order to compensate; That may help curb the situation a bit.

   

  There are a couple of factors with this to consider, ¹ something that maintains the spirit of Quality of Life, & ² doesn’t increase DPS. Furthermore, for the weapon categories;

  • As far as I recall, Melee weapons have already had a very effective Crowd-Control factor removed recently, where if you hit an enemy, they used to be staggered from that alone. This does already bring them a bit closer to where Primaries & Secondaries are, a bit. However, there are some good non-DPS-related mods that could serve as candidates for Melee-Exilus mods, which are usually miscellaneous.
    Category:Melee Mods | WARFRAME Wiki | Fandom
    
    A few notable examples:
    • Healing Return, which is an effective survivability mod, and in a (Perhaps) balanced way has a very low drop chance from certain infested enemies. It heals you by a certain small amount based on the number of different status conditions you’ve got on the target, per hit. It only serves as a supporting mod on Melee weapons, as a result!
       
      • As it stands, it has 16 drain, and recovers up to 11 HP per status condition. As an Exilus, perhaps it could be brought down to 14 drain with 10 HP? Unless the drain should still stay to balance the usefulness as an Exilus; Just a brief thought.
         
    • Dispatch Overdrive, coincidentally also has a very low drop chance from a specific enemy, but is transmutable. This is another QoL-based mod that increases your movement speed for a brief time after hitting a target with your Heavy attack. It doesn’t improve DPS in and of itself, as far as I can tell; Thus lending itself a supportive role.
       
      • Tek Gravity is not as hard to find as the above two mods, but it’s main effect does not increase damage, and requires you to have a Kavat in order to use it, which does limit your Companion options. But the main effect still can be thought of as one, as far as that goes.
         
        • As for why Tek Gravity is an example, you can also consider Vigilante Supplies, which is harder to come by. That mod gives your Primary weapons ammo mutation, and can be involved in increasing your Crit chance based on it’s own set bonus. Tek Gravity’s set bonus is also damage-involved, but not very strong compared to an actual weapon itself. If Vigilante Supplies counts as an Exilus mod for Primaries, this could potentially count as a Melee Exilus.
           
  • Regarding Arch-weaponry, I’d like to consider Archguns first, since the main balance point at this time is bringing Guns up to a higher level towards Melee. There aren’t very many mods that work as QoLs for them at the moment, but more mods could be made to help with that.
    Category:Archwing Gun Mods | WARFRAME Wiki | Fandom
    
    
    Starting with existing mods:
    • Ammo Chain increases your total ammunition by +100%, essentially doubling your ammo. It has no direct effect on DPS, and therefore would be a good Archgun Exilus example.
       
    • Resolute Focus is mostly a QoL-esque mod for Archguns, but it has another effect that might be considered as a slight DPS increase, reducing the spread of your bullets or other weapon fire. If this were made into an Exilus mod, perhaps the bullet spread effect could only apply in either ground or Space, if it were to be balanced in some way to prevent a DPS increase?
       
  • Other possibilities for Archgun Exilus mods could be;
    • Reducing the Animation time / increasing the speed of equipping the Archgun on the Ground.
       
      • Alternatively, perhaps it could allow you to move around while summoning the weapon?
         
      • Perhaps this could also let you put the weapon away faster on the ground? Not affecting the cooldown duration though.
         
    • Faster weapon-swapping / holster-speed in Space (For Primary weapons, they have Twitch).
       
    • Tagging a target after shooting them briefly, allowing you to see them through cover? Similar to Revealing Spores, which is an Exilus Mod as well!
       
      • This could probably have a duration of 15 seconds, similar to Dispatch Overdrive.
         
        • It could perhaps be done with only a certain number of enemies at a time (15s per individual enemy), so it doesn’t brighten up your screen too much & hurt your eyes :)
           
    • A silencing mod for Archgun fire, similar to Hush, etc.! It could be thought of as a giant muffler, to eliminate sound that’d alert enemies.
       
  • As for Archmelee mods, they are mostly about status or DPS-related things. So if they were to have an Exilus slot as it is now, there’s only one mod that fits the bill.
    Category:Archwing Melee Mods | WARFRAME Wiki | Fandom
     
    • Astral Autopsy, kills made via Archmelee perform a codex scan of the target. It certainly isn’t involved in DPS, so it would be a good example of an Archmelee Exilus.
       
  • To justify having an Archmelee Exilus slot, more mods could be made to add some variety! Some possibilities could include;
     
    • A mod similar to Guardian Derision, but without the increase to combo count chance. This would allow you to block with Archmelee and bring enemies away from your allies, which could help depending on the situation.
       
      • In and of itself, the taunting aspect of Guardian Derision seems more like a QoL effect than not, as it doesn’t affect DPS in and of itself; Ergo that part could be an acceptable Archmelee Exilus effect.
         
    • Perhaps an Archmelee Equivalent to Healing Return? It could even have the same drain of 16 perhaps, considering that Cutting Edge has a drain of 16 now, as a +base damage mod.
       
      • I don’t see any reason why you couldn’t have a healing mod for Archmelee, since regular Melee has it already.
         
    • Similar to the second effect of Motus Impact, perhaps another Archmelee Exilus could allow you to quickly recover from being staggered by making an attack with your Archmelee weapon?
       
      • Depending on whether you’re using the Melee weapon to attack the enemy in close quarters or not, this might be slightly DPS, if you keep getting staggered in various small places. It may take some brainstorming.

   

   

Not to mention that Sentinels (& nearly ^(?) all pet companions) in and of themselves have trouble surviving for a while at a time, in high-enough level missions. Of course that's not exactly the same compared to looking at Sentinel weaponry, as far as that goes. I am glad to hear that the Helminth system will be expanded upon in some way though, on a brighter note!

That did give me a couple of ideas;

1. Perhaps would it allow you to infuse two different abilities into your Warframe, instead of just one? That would be a good idea hypothetically, as not only would it save people from having to farm a third copy of all their Frames, but it increases your combat-customization as well. If there are two different abilities you'd like to use, you can have both of them.
    
   • This may also reduce any need to think of a second Subsume ability for the entire list of Frames; Thus eliminating any need for balancing more of those nonexistent additional subsume abilities.
      
     • That being said, more Helminth-original abilities would always be welcome I think! I recall Super Jump being mentioned before, so maybe that could be infused alongside another Frame's subsume ability? Of course ideally, having two different Warframe abilities ^{(Such as Oberon's Smite alongside Protea's Dispensary)} infused at the same time would be amazing.
        
2. The next-best idea I can think of would be to allow the Helminth (Probably at a new Max-rank) to infuse the power of a Warframe's ability augment into their abilities. A compromise to this would be to sacrifice a copy of that augment mod for every frame you have that ability on.
    
   • Although perhaps that could then be saved per Warframe, so you don't need to sacrifice two of the same augment if you were to take off the ability and put it back on. Such as regenerative Molt; If you infuse Molt onto a frame, and sacrifice the augment mod, but later take off Molt for something else, the Helminth could remember that your specific Warframe previously had Regenerative Molt, and give you the option to take an augmented-version, or just the regular Molt when you re-infuse that ability to said Frame.
      
3. One last thought I had involved Warframe passives being subsumed, but that would likely be a bit much. It may be easier and better to look into one of the above routes instead, since the Helminth is already made for abilities rather than passives.
    
   • Although Titania's passive is one of my favorites, as far as that goes :)

 

Thank you for hearing me out on it at least. One of the reasons why I brought up Archmelee is because they are still a type of Melee weapon, but not really as strong as standard Melee weapons have become; Partly due to a smaller pool of Archmelee mods compared to general melee mods. I hope the suggestions I have above may help with that.

• That being said, Archmelee also don't have riven mods at the moment, but more importantly I do hope Sentinel weapons / companion survivability will be looked at in the future as well; Not to go off-topic too much.

 

38 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

I'd also like "World on Fire" to return as a Helminth power.
Ember was my main lady till her rework.

World on Fire was never End-Game viable alone,
it was just a small extra DoT you can have which only slightly helped kill things.

You have a great point there; Having past abilities that no longer exist return as Helminth abilities would be a great way to fill out the selection of potential it has! I'm actually wondering what other abilities that used-to-exist could be re-implemented to the Helminth now :)

• I think Rift Walk used to be an ability for Limbo before he got a rework, reading back on some things. Perhaps that could be used as a way to perform a self-banish? So that you can temporarily enter the rift; At the cost of not being able to use banish (A single ability) for that dual-purpose, and Rift Walk would have a duration of some sort.
   
  • That being said, I suppose (If you could infuse two different abilities to the same frame / Config) you could have Banish and Rift Walk at the same time.
     
• Perhaps some previous abilities Vauban had could be thrown in as well, as food for thought:
  Spoiler

  Found it! From Update 18.12:

  • Minelayer adds the ability to cycle through four deployable trap mines: Bounce, Trip Laser, Shred and Concuss.

   

  Although when it comes to abilities that cycle between different options like Ivara's arrows or Wisp's motes, I'm not 100% sure how it'll work to have two different cycles at once. The simplest idea I can think of is to have each ability-cycle operate separately;

  • Basically holding the ability key and pressing the relevantly-assigned button for that specific ability. Like if you had a cycle on 1, pressing [Ability +1] cycles that, and same thing for your other infused cycle-options in the other ability slot.
    
    That said it would also involve whatever controllers / key bindings you have set up!

   

   

 

All in all, I'm looking forward to the 18th as well :)

[(PSN)DarkRazorSpades]

Helminth expansion?! 

I'm very excited now...Ouu the anticipation...

[Terroriced]

I really like warframes devs and their devstreams.

But since 2019 I feel like they listen more to the haters while people who just enjoy this awesome game stay unheard.

 

Corrosive Damage, Itzal Blink, Covert Lethality, Zenistar, Corrosive Projection, Reaping Chakram, Riven Mod dispositions. Things I liked.

None of those will return to how they used to be and its a shame.

The new nerf mentality has continuously chipped away from the enjoyment and trust I have.

[Nox_Terminus]

10 minutes ago, Terroriced said:

I really like warframes devs and their devstreams.

But since 2019 I feel like they listen more to the haters while people who just enjoy this awesome game stay unheard.

 

Corrosive Damage, Itzal Blink, Covert Lethality, Zenistar, Corrosive Projection, Reaping Chakram, Riven Mod dispositions. Things I liked.

None of those will return to how they used to be and its a shame.

The new nerf mentality has continuously chipped away from the enjoyment and trust I have.

Rivens as they are currently implemented do nothing to breath new life into weapons. They just make strong weapons stronger. Due to their integration into the plat trading market it is unlikely for actually good changes to be made to the system. Thus I can only say that Rivens were a mistake, especially in terms of how rivens affect certain warframe abilities, rivens should have literally nothing to do with Warframe abilities.

[FlutterAi]

5 hours ago, Sdric said:

Let's hope this means that they're actually considering inter-weapon balance instead of an across-the-board mod buff (which would only worsen the power discrepancies between different guns). Aka: If you add 100% to the savings of beggar he will go from 1€ to 2€ while the millionaire will go from 1.000.000€ to 2.000.000€. Translated: Granting the Bramma or Acceltra the same buffed mods as the Burston Prime; it's not helping balancing. We need changes to individual guns, not just to mods. I hope this happens... I've been a bit disheartened since the stream

 

I'd say that's what riven mod dispositions are supposed to be for (ideally, in a perfect world, so on and so forth, etc, don't @ me). If DE equalized weapons from early-game to late-game (yes yes, I know, some weapons have MR requirements that are too low or high, not appropriate to their actual strength, but most MR requirements are decent) we'd lose some sense of progression from ranking up, since you're not getting access to better weapons, just different and same-ish ones.

[vanaukas]

31 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

That did happen and was considered a nerf so...

Then I have another meaning for "nerf" word...

[DrivaMain]

The content drought continues..

Looking forward to the parazon mercy changes. Any upcoming mention of increasing the minimum health threshold?

[Nox_Terminus]

7 minutes ago, FlutterAi said:

I'd say that's what riven mod dispositions are supposed to be for (ideally, in a perfect world, so on and so forth, etc, don't @ me). If DE equalized weapons from early-game to late-game (yes yes, I know, some weapons have MR requirements that are too low or high, not appropriate to their actual strength, but most MR requirements are decent) we'd lose some sense of progression from ranking up, since you're not getting access to better weapons, just different and same-ish ones.

Considering a new-ish player with friends can get speed-runned to MR 5 and then get a Kuva Lich weapon (none of which have a 'real' MR requirement) the concept of MR progression loses all relevance.

[fo3nixz]

Arch melee revised when? 

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

10 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

Then I have another meaning for "nerf" word...

Fair point, but what would you call it then.  Context in these situations matters.  For the melee going through walls and objects if that existed within the game for months or years (honestly I wasn't an active player then but I believe it was).  Only to be removed for "balance" I would debate if you could call it something like a bug fix or quality of life adjustment. 

Whipclaw in the same context would also apply to this as this was not changed to fix a bug that was never intended. It was done to reduce the power the allowed exploit was providing.

 

[OorieLynch]

Thanks for being vocal about what you do! 😄

[vanaukas]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

Fair point, but what would you call it then.  Context in these situations matters.  For the melee going through walls and objects if that existed within the game for months or years (honestly I wasn't an active player then but I believe it was).  Only to be removed for "balance" I would debate if you could call it something like a bug fix or quality of life adjustment. 

Whipclaw in the same context would also apply to this as this was not changed to fix a bug that was never intended. It was done to reduce the power the allowed exploit was providing.

Exploting stuff, at least from my perspective as a beginner dev/designer, it's a bug that requires a fix... But I also would want to know why people are exploting stuff. Is the game boring? Is the game too grindy? Is the reward pool too dilluted? And I'm sure De as devs asks themselves the same questions, but I can't understand some of their decisions since I'm too far from understanding game development as bussiness, so my perspective is focused only gameplay wise