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Why the Orokin can return and why the Elder queen can't.


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Hi Tenno,

I was going back over some old lore and realised that I had made a large misconception about the continuity and that the truth leaves open a way for the Orokin to return and potentially explains why the elder queen hasn't revived.

 

I originally assumed she died because we interrupt her continuity, because it is a process that require 2 living bodies, for a consciousness to be transferred between.

However, looking back at the lore, that is definitely not the case: Ballas specifically says "we have died hundreds of times" and makes it clear that a corpse is no impediment to being revived by kuva and while a somewhat different process, the liches also confirm this, as we kill the larva, but the lich still revives from that corpse.

 

This seems to clearly imply that kuva can preserve a consciousness outside of a living body and that in fact a body may not be needed for anything but a resurrection.

Cephalon are also preserved with kuva, but instead of being transferred to a new human body, they are loaded into crystal and edited to serve a function (except in cases like Suda).

 

This makes me think that kuva may actually be a substance that can be used to imprint a mind or consciousness and afterwards, the person either exists in the kuva, within a host body, rather than directly residing in its brain, or exists in both, like a redundant backup.

 

This would make sense as, although we are told that kuva is vital to the continuity, we see the queen using different technology, when she tries to overtake us.

Likewise, we may not have interrupted her continuity by killing her current body, but instead by taking the kuva she had removed from it in preparation for the transfer and if kuva itself doesn't instigate the transference, then that would explain why some Tenno drinking it didn't have that effect on them.

Similarly, with liches, they survive until we either capture them, or take a kuva weapon from them, removing that from their bodies and preventing further resurrection.

 

Now that we suspect kuva can preserve minds in isolation of anything else, one piece of lore takes on a massive significant; because in the current age, kuva come from two sources:

New kuva, harvested from siphons and old kuva, running through the living tower in Cetus, a construct  we already know to have a mind and will and to be coursing with kuva.

The tower is ancient, from the era of the old empire and compared to the small vial that the queen had, it contains a colossal amount of kuva, enough that it could have imprinted thousands of minds.

 

In the current age, there is no faction that wishes for the Orokin's return, but if the old kuva still remains, then their continuity may not in fact be broken, it may only be waiting.

 

 

I doubt this is the direction DE will go in, but it's an interesting thought, that I hope amuses some Tenno.

 

(Glass-Maker silliness:

That episode has a few annoying things, 1stly, that it completely spoiled the cephalon lore, seeming to imply that massive secret was something that every Tenno should already be aware of, despite DE never putting a single clue for accessing it in game and worse, that the in universe characters should know it too, despite it being a revelation that could destroy many cephalon and as such, almost certainly kept hidden.

However the bigger problem here is that it also partially retconned how cephalon are created, removing the kuva element.

That said, as no full cephalon are actually created, I don't think it's much of a stretch to carry on thinking that kuva is still essential to making complete cephalon, or at least that it was, in the earlier generation, perhaps with it becoming unnecessary as the vitrifying technology was perfected.)

Edited by TheArcSet
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Posted (edited)

An idle thought: it turned out that the Grinneer were still unknowingly Orokin slaves.

 

 Would it be ironic if the same were true of the Ostron and Quills?

Edited by TheArcSet
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This seems like an interesting subject. A valid interpretation is that kuva is a sort of holographic imprint of oro. Oro maybe multidimeshional, or so it seems in the case of Unum, which appears to represent a 4D spacetime field with some inorganic base. This field can be "recorded" as a 3D representation, which is temple kuva, which in turn can be shared with Unum agents to provide some type of a link. Apparently same thing may be true in the case of smaller entities possessing oro. So, kuva may very well be a holographic recording of 4D-moving oro. If oro is combined with a living entity, it can generate kuva, which, again, is a holographic recording of this interaction.

In this case, in a sense, an orokin can be represented by an interaction of oro field with a regular being. Hence, it can be recorded as a kuva. To reconstrcut the recording, it had to be projected or reversed on another host, with which it may interact to recreate a combination of old entity with a new entity. Thus, continuity may be ensured. So, orokin indeed actually die, and each act of rebirth creates a somewhat different entity based on interaction of the "old" kuva-based projection with a new host. Maybe, even a complete failure is possible if a host is incompatible with this interaction.

The Elder Queen might have spent considerable time within a partially compatible host, and the host has been considerably modified by the presence of oro. Probably, the oro itself could have been modified in return to ensure survival. So, the transfer could have failed very well on it own. Plus, the weapon might be an actual recorder and a means to recreate the projection based on the recording. The weapon tuning to particular frequencies needs intact orokin. Destorying the weapon destroys the tools needed to recreate the recording, which probably becomes lost forever.

IMO, the presence of kuva by itself does not mean that anything can be "revived". Holographic projection requires reproduction under the conditions, which are more or less identical to those used during the recording, and the projection matrix, in terms of spacetime, has to be compatible.

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I don't think there is any technical limitation to revive the Orokin, but as i have learnt over the years what is technically possible may not be practically feasible.

Also let us realise that the before the old war the orokin were at the peak of their civilisation,

we are at a time when most of the old tech has been destroyed and much of the knowledge is lost.

The Few people that possess the knowledge may not be too keen on reviving tyrants , cause its the right thing to do or cause they don't want competition.

Kuva itself is a very complex thing , (on par with "void magic", it can do whatever it needs to be to progress the plot and can conveniently not do things which may create plot holes.)

And as per game lore there may be atleast 3 variants of kuva (regular, tainted and blue) there may be a lot more and the means to extract each may be different like getting diesel , petrol , oil and gas from crude or they may be completely different things ,like water and alchohol, we do not know at this moment.

On top of that Tenno are shown to be capable of killing immortals (Liches, Queens) and since Kuva is so linked to tenno void magic maybe it can override any continuity as well. Lets not forget that most of the Orokin were killed by the tenno , maybe they did it in a way to stop them from reviving.

Interesting topic anyway.

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7 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Lets not forget that most of the Orokin were killed by the tenno , maybe they did it in a way to stop them from reviving.

The subject is a bit obscure according to DE. Techically, oro can be destroyed or absorbed. It does not seem that tenno have eliminated orokin as a race, as there are multiple examples of immortality remaining. And the tenno did not commit suicide just to eliminate any trace of oro. So, it is possible to assume that the goal of the tenno rebellion/betrayal was to destroy the empire and not to actually blow up every single instance of oro that exists. Which in turn suggests that oro on its own is neither hostile nor otherwise destructive and probably continues to persist in multiple entities all over the place, including huge chunks of primary source (Unum) and secondary instances of these large chunks (towers). Tenno are not running around trying to destroy any single tower, although are not using them for their own purpose but instead have constructed relays, which are apparently devoid of any oro-like interference. This may account for some differences between oro signatures/frequencies attributed to traditional orokin leadership and Tau-modified oro of the tenno.

IMO, only some malignant (based on the point of view of tenno or whoever organized the coup, maybe sentients with or without Ballas or other representative of Tau) orokin leadership has been targeted. They were,, most likely, partially absorbed to provide useful technology and partially blown up depending on circumstances or situation.

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28 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The Few people that possess the knowledge may not be too keen on reviving tyrants , cause its the right thing to do or cause they don't want competition.

These few people can actually be tenno themselves, being supervised by the Stalker and co (which is in fact a Tau-associated power of their own to a large extent) to ensure  some semblance of a balance. If grineer or corpus are weakened or if the threat of being overrun by infestation becomes too strong, tenno might be tempted too much and actually go for a new hybrid oro-Tau empire.

Edited by akots
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12 minutes ago, akots said:

The subject is a bit obscure according to DE. Techically, oro can be destroyed or absorbed. It does not seem that tenno have eliminated orokin as a race, as there are multiple examples of immortality remaining. And the tenno did not commit suicide just to eliminate any trace of oro. So, it is possible to assume that the goal of the tenno rebellion/betrayal was to destroy the empire and not to actually blow up every single instance of oro that exists. Which in turn suggests that oro on its own is neither hostile nor otherwise destructive and probably continues to persist in multiple entities all over the place, including huge chunks of primary source (Unum) and secondary instances of these large chunks (towers). Tenno are not running around trying to destroy any single tower, although are not using them for their own purpose but instead have constructed relays, which are apparently devoid of any oro-like interference. This may account for some differences between oro signatures/frequencies attributed to traditional orokin leadership and Tau-modified oro of the tenno.

IMO, only some malignant (based on the point of view of tenno or whoever organized the coup, maybe sentients with or without Ballas or other representative of Tau) orokin leadership has been targeted. They were,, most likely, partially absorbed to provide useful technology and partially blown up depending on circumstances or situation.

When I said orokin I was refering to the then ruling class. 

Grineer (queens) , Corpus and Tenno (non operator) are the closest direct descendents to the actual orokin which may have not only preserved but expanded on some of their capabilities.

Everyone that exists in the origin system were one way or another part of the orokin.

11 minutes ago, akots said:

These few people can actually be tenno themselves, being supervised by the Stalker and co (which is in fact a Tau-associated power of their own to a large extent) to ensure  some semblance of a balance. If grineer or corpus are weakened or if the threat of being overrun by infestation becomes too strong, tenno might be tempted too much and actually go for a new hybrid oro-Tau empire.

I don't quite get this. Are you talking about some fringe orokin loyalists amongst the Tenno ? Trying to revive the glory of the old times ? Sure , it's plausible.

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Thanks for these thought :) .

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

On top of that Tenno are shown to be capable of killing immortals (Liches, Queens) and since Kuva is so linked to tenno void magic maybe it can override any continuity as well. Lets not forget that most of the Orokin were killed by the tenno , maybe they did it in a way to stop them from reviving.

I was suggesting that we've stopped the Queen and the liches reviving by removing their kuva, held in their weapons (which they keep if just converted), but with requiem mods, void magic certainly isn't out of the question.

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16 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

When you fail the Kuva Siphon, Worm talks about seeing her sister again. So its an in-universe work in progress.

Oh, I haven't heard that for a while.


That certainly shows a differenge angle then.

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24 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

When you fail the Kuva Siphon, Worm talks about seeing her sister again. So its an in-universe work in progress.

She probably has some older template left as a secured copy but does not know the exact encryption or simply cannot retrieve the hologram. So, apparently, the idea is to try every matching option, which might be a million variants, to hopefully eventually find the correct or at least reasonable combination. That's why she needs so much kuva and is still extremely unlikely to succeed. But it is hope that keeps her going. On the other hand, IDK what specific harm her sister can actually do in the present situation.

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for these interesting thoughts.

I'm not quite sure though which things you're presenting as head-cannon and which as facts?

So:

Oro: a concept mentioned in the conclave, which Tenshin briefly mentions is the reason that Tenno and a few others can revive (uncertain if that means from bleedout, or death), canonising all Tenno deaths. It may originate from the void?

 

Unum: the consciousness of the Orokin town in Cetus, which currently communicates with people through a blind child (& maybe Nakak).

This structure may be the last intact tower and is the only one we've seen to show a personality and to do anything beyond dominate and corrupt those who enter it. It is an organic structure composed of flesh, but with (temple) kuva for blood. We know that it can subsume creatures that consume it's blood.

It appears to have knowledge of many possible futures (and presumable the past) and can share this ability with quills, who often lose their concept of a present.

It also has many technological abilities, including projecting forcefields and the others towers' ability to hack technology.

 

Kuva: A mysterious and legendary substance, described as a metallic oil and as vital to the Orokin continuity (as well as other forms of immortality) and as such a symbol of their power and authority. It can allow lifeforms to be subsumed by others.

It can heal the void damage inflicted on sentients travelling from Tau.

It can imbue weapons with additional power and can be a way negate Tenno abilities or interrupt transference, as with the Guardians and the sceptre.

It is uncertain if Temple Kuva is a distinct kind, but Blue and Crimson kuva are used together to achieve a continuity transfer: blue to copy a mind and red to permanently fix it in place.

 

I'm pretty certain kuva has a physical exitance, rather than simply a holographic one; unless you mean holographic in the sense that multiple layers of information are encoded and accessed by different angles of observation.

 

Edited by TheArcSet
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3 hours ago, TheArcSet said:

However the bigger problem here is that it also partially retconned how cephalon are created, removing the kuva element.

That said, as no full cephalon are actually created, I don't think it's much of a stretch to carry on thinking that kuva is still essential to making complete cephalon

I agree with this. It's now sort of up in the air. Given that Nihil enlisted the help of an Ostron (Shigg), who may have had access to kuva, it's possible that kuva is still involved and that Shigg supplied the kuva for Nihil to use in cephalizing* his victims.

Although, if I understand the rest of your post correctly, you're implying that the Unum's kuva has the consciousnesses of many ancient Orokin already implanted within already? The kuva can likely be reused for a new mind even if that is the case, although Nihil did seem to want to revive the Orokin Empire, so it seems odd that he would wipe out a few Orokin to preserve some random (in his mind) criminals.

*According to some of the Cephalon Suda crewmember bios, this is indeed a word.

3 hours ago, TheArcSet said:

we see the queen using different technology, when she tries to overtake us.

I'm not sure what "different technology" you're talking about. The Elder Queen used the kuva in her sceptre; the process looked identical to when the Worm Queen later uses kuva to make Kuva Liches (in the cinematic you can view in the Codex).

3 hours ago, TheArcSet said:

An idle thought: it turned out that the Grinneer were still unknowingly Orokin slaves.

 Would it be ironic if the same were true of the Ostron and Quills?

I guess it depends on how much you think the Unum represents the Orokin. The Ostrons of Cetus revere her, and the Quills serve her overtly. Does that make them Orokin slaves?

The Ostrons do seem prone to venerating the Orokin:

  • Shigg says "Lived too long in the shadow of the Tower. I had allowed myself the belief that all things Orokin were good, as the Unum is good."
  • Nakak says "You'll find spirit jars at most of the bars. Order something, leave a coin. It keeps the souls of the Orokin happy…"
  • The "Ostrons" Thousand-Year Fish fragment says: "Oro-kin-ka: spirit houses for the souls of the Orokin who once inhabited Cetus. By giving them a small house in which to reside, the Ostrons hope the Orokin spirits will leave them in peace. Said to be good luck."

(emphasis added)

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

there may be atleast 3 variants of kuva (regular, tainted and blue)

Where are you getting the idea of "tainted" kuva?

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Kuva is so linked to tenno void magic

Kuva has no relation to the Tenno or the Void, and was used by the Orokin long before they ever opened the Void, according to Albrecht Entrati's memoir.

42 minutes ago, TheArcSet said:

we've stopped the Queen and the liches reviving by removing their kuva, held in their weapons (which they keep if just converted)

So, the kuva that keeps the Liches immortal isn't in their weapons (that we know of). It's held in a large repository that either shows up on the Lich's chest, back, or eye. When you defeat the Lich, the warframe stabs the kuva repository with the Parazon, thus draining them of their immortality. This is what allows you to kill them (or convince them to join you on pain of death? How "conversion" works is not explicitly explained.).

43 minutes ago, TheArcSet said:

Oh, I haven't heard that for a while.
That certainly shows a differenge angle then.

I actually was just working on this last night; intentionally failing kuva siphons in order to trigger the Worm Queen's dialogue. Here are the two relevant lines she says when she successfully completes a kuva siphon:

"And done. Another batch of kuva particles for my Sister. Every bit counts, you know."

"Sweet kuva! Sister, it won't be long before I see your beautifully grotesque face again."

Worm Queen also says similar things on broadcast screens in the Kuva Fortress:

"My sister is sick, you gray maggots. From now on, work details are doubled. Halved rations until kuva distillation is meeting production targets!"

3 minutes ago, TheArcSet said:

Oro: a concept mentioned in the conclave, which Tenshin briefly mentions is the reason that Tenn and a few others can revive (uncertain if that means from bleedout, or death), canonising all Tenno deaths. It may originate from the void?

It's worth noting, for everyone who keeps mentioning Oro, that Oro is a concept mentioned in two of Teshin's line, heard only during Conclave. This is the entirety of the official information about Oro:

(Annihilation) "Oro is the binding force for an enemy who, like the Tenno, can survive death. To kill such an enemy is futile, unless you sever this bond; absorb the Oro to annihilate it and claim a true victory."

(Team Annihilation) "Out there exist an enemy that can be struck down, incapacitated, dismantled, and yet they rise to fight again. Annihilate the opposing team's Oro to claim a true victory."

Everything else (who has Oro, who doesn't, where did it come from, how does it work) is pure speculation, because there are no answers about Oro. Also keep in mind that these lines were added into the game many years ago, so their validity is, in my mind, questionable. DE may have changed their mind on how immortality works, retconning Oro into kuva entirely, since the mention of Oro predates the mention of kuva. But it is telling that no character has ever mentioned Oro in any context, and when Teshin is involved in the very quest that explores the Twin Queens and their immortality and the Tenno's powers, he never talks about Oro even once.

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21 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

I agree with this. It's now sort of up in the air. Given that Nihil enlisted the help of an Ostron (Shigg), who may have had access to kuva, it's possible that kuva is still involved and that Shigg supplied the kuva for Nihil to use in cephalizing* his victims.

Although, if I understand the rest of your post correctly, you're implying that the Unum's kuva has the consciousnesses of many ancient Orokin already implanted within already? The kuva can likely be reused for a new mind even if that is the case, although Nihil did seem to want to revive the Orokin Empire, so it seems odd that he would wipe out a few Orokin to preserve some random (in his mind) criminals.

*According to some of the Cephalon Suda crewmember bios, this is indeed a word.

I'm not sure what "different technology" you're talking about. The Elder Queen used the kuva in her sceptre; the process looked identical to when the Worm Queen later uses kuva to make Kuva Liches (in the cinematic you can view in the Codex).

I guess it depends on how much you think the Unum represents the Orokin. The Ostrons of Cetus revere her, and the Quills serve her overtly. Does that make them Orokin slaves?

The Ostrons do seem prone to venerating the Orokin:

  • Shigg says "Lived too long in the shadow of the Tower. I had allowed myself the belief that all things Orokin were good, as the Unum is good."
  • Nakak says "You'll find spirit jars at most of the bars. Order something, leave a coin. It keeps the souls of the Orokin happy…"
  • The "Ostrons" Thousand-Year Fish fragment says: "Oro-kin-ka: spirit houses for the souls of the Orokin who once inhabited Cetus. By giving them a small house in which to reside, the Ostrons hope the Orokin spirits will leave them in peace. Said to be good luck."

(emphasis added)

Where are you getting the idea of "tainted" kuva?

Kuva has no relation to the Tenno or the Void, and was used by the Orokin long before they ever opened the Void, according to Albrecht Entrati's memoir.

So, the kuva that keeps the Liches immortal isn't in their weapons (that we know of). It's held in a large repository that either shows up on the Lich's chest, back, or eye. When you defeat the Lich, the warframe stabs the kuva repository with the Parazon, thus draining them of their immortality. This is what allows you to kill them (or convince them to join you on pain of death? How "conversion" works is not explicitly explained.).

I actually was just working on this last night; intentionally failing kuva siphons in order to trigger the Worm Queen's dialogue. Here are the two relevant lines she says when she successfully completes a kuva siphon:

"And done. Another batch of kuva particles for my Sister. Every bit counts, you know."

"Sweet kuva! Sister, it won't be long before I see your beautifully grotesque face again."

Worm Queen also says similar things on broadcast screens in the Kuva Fortress:

"My sister is sick, you gray maggots. From now on, work details are doubled. Halved rations until kuva distillation is meeting production targets!"

It's worth noting, for everyone who keeps mentioning Oro, that Oro is a concept mentioned in two of Teshin's line, heard only during Conclave. This is the entirety of the official information about Oro:

(Annihilation) "Oro is the binding force for an enemy who, like the Tenno, can survive death. To kill such an enemy is futile, unless you sever this bond; absorb the Oro to annihilate it and claim a true victory."

(Team Annihilation) "Out there exist an enemy that can be struck down, incapacitated, dismantled, and yet they rise to fight again. Annihilate the opposing team's Oro to claim a true victory."

Everything else (who has Oro, who doesn't, where did it come from, how does it work) is pure speculation, because there are no answers about Oro. Also keep in mind that these lines were added into the game many years ago, so their validity is, in my mind, questionable. DE may have changed their mind on how immortality works, retconning Oro into kuva entirely, since the mention of Oro predates the mention of kuva. But it is telling that no character has ever mentioned Oro in any context, and when Teshin is involved in the very quest that explores the Twin Queens and their immortality and the Tenno's powers, he never talks about Oro even once.

Thanks for those clarifications and the Worm's lines.

 

I wasn't sure if the queen was extending kuva from the sceptre, or using another technology to attack our minds.

And I agree, it's very unlikely DE would go in that direction, but if Orokin can exist without living bodies, I think it is interesting to speculate that more than 3 might still be around.

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19 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

Where are you getting the idea of "tainted" kuva?

From the kuva liches, and as I said it may be a different thing or it could just be just a diluted kuva.

25 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

Kuva has no relation to the Tenno or the Void, and was used by the Orokin long before they ever opened the Void, according to Albrecht Entrati's memoir.

Void energy is the only thing that can destroy kuva clouds and other kuva braids during the war within , it is the only way to disarm kuva guardians as well. 

I am not sure kuva (or other tech including transference ) even existed before the void breach.

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4 hours ago, TheArcSet said:

Thanks for these interesting thoughts.

I'm not quite sure though which things you're presenting as head-cannon and which as facts? ...

... I'm pretty certain kuva has a physical exitance, rather than simply a holographic one; unless you mean holographic in the sense that multiple layers of information are encoded and accessed by different angles of observation.

 

You are pretty much rationalizing everything. With regard to kuva, it might be a holographic 3D recording of a 4D oro. A recording is physical but has to undergo a certain transformation to produce an actual 4D pattern for reconstruction. For a 3D object, generation of a hologram requires at least 2 angles, and for a 3D object, it should be at least 3 angles of a 4D spacetime. More accurate representation may require multiple wavelengths, which may explain different colors of the kuva.

With regard to oro, of course, there is no direct mention of anything specific. Although the name itself, I mean Oro-kin, implies a certain relationship. However, one can consider the following:

1. Conclave Teshin's statement. It does seem like some inorganic or even pure energy structure within a compact closed field. Nothing worm-insect-like aka Stargate.

2. There are quite a few similarities of Orokin with goa'uld/tokra-like symbiont from Stargate. A particularly notable is shining eyes and change of voice of Ballas during The Sacrifice.

3. Margulis is an actual person, a very prominent biologist, who extensively studied symbiosis, which seems to be likely a coexistence of oro with a host, with oro being transferrable. Since the host is 3D, and oro should be more like 4D, the transfer requires some sort of projection. Holographic universe is a simple and popular accepted solution to these issues.

4. The Unum is an epitome of the Empire, apparently a 4D entity, which projects itself as a tower, and possibly all other existing towers, and has confusing spacetime relationships, The walls are actually kuva, which seems to the a 3D projection of her oro.

There are a few other indirect things to consider, although these are even less direct.

Of course, this whole approach generally avoids some obscure concepts like "soul", another "dimension" aka "void" as something occult, and other similarly mysterious spiritual/irrational stuff and is mainly based on General Relativity, quantum gravity, and rational spacetime concepts.

Edited by akots
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DE has done a terrible job of explaining what Oro and Kuva is and what they can and cannot do. Teshin's cryptic opinion on Kuva in The New War gets us nowhere, and what's even crazier is that from the Naberus Story told by Grandmother, there is more than one type of Kuva (Blue Kuva is a thing) . where are the other types? what can they do? why do you even need all these different Kuvas in the first place? what happens if you mix them all together?

whole lotta questions, not a lot of answers.

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3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Void energy is the only thing that can destroy kuva clouds and other kuva braids during the war within , it is the only way to disarm kuva guardians as well. 

I am not sure kuva (or other tech including transference ) even existed before the void breach.

They may be connected, but kuva certainly existed and was used, for a very long time before the void was accessed.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, akots said:

You are pretty much rationalizing everything. With regard to kuva, it might be a holographic 3D recording of a 4D oro. A recording is physical but has to undergo a certain transformation to produce an actual 4D pattern for reconstruction. For a 3D object, generation of a hologram requires at least 2 angles, and for a 3D object, it should be at least 3 angles of a 4D spacetime. More accurate representation may require multiple wavelengths, which may explain different colors of the kuva.

With regard to oro, of course, there is no direct mention of anything specific. Although the name itself, I mean Oro-kin, implies a certain relationship. However, one can consider the following:

1. Conclave Teshin's statement. It does seem like some inorganic or even pure energy structure within a compact closed field. Nothing worm-insect-like aka Stargate.

2. There are quite a few similarities of Orokin with goa'uld/tokra-like symbiont from Stargate. A particularly notable is shining eyes and change of voice of Ballas during The Sacrifice.

3. Margulis is an actual person, a very prominent biologist, who extensively studied symbiosis, which seems to be likely a coexistence of oro with a host, with oro being transferrable. Since the host is 3D, and oro should be more like 4D, the transfer requires some sort of projection. Holographic universe is a simple and popular accepted solution to these issues.

4. The Unum is an epitome of the Empire, apparently a 4D entity, which projects itself as a tower, and possibly all other existing towers, and has confusing spacetime relationships, The walls are actually kuva, which seems to the a 3D projection of her oro.

There are a few other indirect things to consider, although these are even less direct.

Of course, this whole approach generally avoids some obscure concepts like "soul", another "dimension" aka "void" as something occult, and other similarly mysterious spiritual/irrational stuff and is mainly based on General Relativity, quantum gravity, and rational spacetime concepts.

Ok, so you did mean holographic encoding, as oppose to how it's colloquially used.

 

Again, I'm still not quite certain if this is your head-cannon, a theory your suggesting, or or something I've missed in game and which isn't recorded on the wiki.

1. Teshin describes it as a "force" binding certain individuals to life; making killing them, without collecting it, pointless. I'm not really convinced by Oro---kin, especially when we know they didn't have Oro.

The idea that it's a recording of a lifeform is also kind of undermined by the fact that we have a limitless supply of them, unless we have infinite redundancy; I can shoot you in the head, grab a single oro from you and you still revive just fine.

2. Interesting, but not exactly relevant to lore; unless you're suggesting DE based one off the other. And as the Orokin can literally look however they want, with the whole mastery of genetics and bio-engineering, going off appearances might not be very helpful. As for being in symbiosis , as kuva is what separates an Orokin from any other human, wouldn't that be the symbiote, if it's alive.

3. That's kind of pulled from the air. We've no reason to think this force is any more symbiotic than a magnet, have you any reason to think it's alive, or a suggestion what the pickup might symbiotically gain from holding someone to life. You seem very intent on what you've decided oro should be.

4. Umm. Where are you getting that from. We have no reason to think it's any thing more than an individual being, that was once one of thousands. I'm pretty sure the Orokin engineered it, rather than it being an alien that's projecting it's existence into our dimension from another; we can't rule that out but, Occam's razor exists for a reason. It is different to the others, but it's also the only undamaged one we've seen. I'd suspect it was like Suda, before I'd consider it being alien.

Being able to perceive divergent potential future events is an amazing ability, but it doesn't necessitate being any more a 4D entity than we are (I assume you are suggesting it exists across multiple points in time, rather than progress through time like us).

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1 hour ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

whole lotta questions, not a lot of answers.

It is most likely done on purpose. The more is left behind the scenes, the lower the chance is that some people don't like something. Also, leaves room for fan-fiction, interpretation, and argumentation, which fuels the interest for later revelations and wiggling room for otherwise inconsistent concepts. If it is too rational, spiritual people won't like it, and if it is pure spiritual lore, some rationally thinking people won't like it as well. If it is really unclear what is what, both groups might be OK with that and none feels offended/neglected.

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12 minutes ago, TheArcSet said:

a theory your suggesting

You can take it at that. I'm not going to argue with anything, as the "objective" information from DE is clearly insufficient. Everyone can rationalize (or not rationalize at all and take spiritual/occult path of souls and other planes of existence/dimensions) to offer some comfortable explanation. I can start every sentence with "maybe" or "IMO", which does not make a lot of sense with regard to anything that is related to fiction, including DE's version of lore.

Edited by akots
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11 hours ago, TheArcSet said:

Hi Tenno,

I was going back over some old lore and realised that I had made a large misconception about the continuity and that the truth leaves open a way for the Orokin to return and potentially explains why the elder queen hasn't revived.

 

I originally assumed she died because we interrupt her continuity, because it is a process that require 2 living bodies, for a consciousness to be transferred between.

However, looking back at the lore, that is definitely not the case: Ballas specifically says "we have died hundreds of times" and makes it clear that a corpse is no impediment to being revived by kuva and while a somewhat different process, the liches also confirm this, as we kill the larva, but the lich still revives from that corpse.

 

This seems to clearly imply that kuva can preserve a consciousness outside of a living body and that in fact a body may not be needed for anything but a resurrection.

Cephalon are also preserved with kuva, but instead of being transferred to a new human body, they are loaded into crystal and edited to serve a function (except in cases like Suda).

 

This makes me think that kuva may actually be a substance that can be used to imprint a mind or consciousness and afterwards, the person either exists in the kuva, within a host body, rather than directly residing in its brain, or exists in both, like a redundant backup.

 

This would make sense as, although we are told that kuva is vital to the continuity, we see the queen using different technology, when she tries to overtake us.

Likewise, we may not have interrupted her continuity by killing her current body, but instead by taking the kuva she had removed from it in preparation for the transfer and if kuva itself doesn't instigate the transference, then that would explain why some Tenno drinking it didn't have that effect on them.

Similarly, with liches, they survive until we either capture them, or take a kuva weapon from them, removing that from their bodies and preventing further resurrection.

 

Now that we suspect kuva can preserve minds in isolation of anything else, one piece of lore takes on a massive significant; because in the current age, kuva come from two sources:

New kuva, harvested from siphons and old kuva, running through the living tower in Cetus, a construct  we already know to have a mind and will and to be coursing with kuva.

The tower is ancient, from the era of the old empire and compared to the small vial that the queen had, it contains a colossal amount of kuva, enough that it could have imprinted thousands of minds.

 

In the current age, there is no faction that wishes for the Orokin's return, but if the old kuva still remains, then their continuity may not in fact be broken, it may only be waiting.

 

 

I doubt this is the direction DE will go in, but it's an interesting thought, that I hope amuses some Tenno.

 

(Glass-Maker silliness:

That episode has a few annoying things, 1stly, that it completely spoiled the cephalon lore, seeming to imply that massive secret was something that every Tenno should already be aware of, despite DE never putting a single clue for accessing it in game and worse, that the in universe characters should know it too, despite it being a revelation that could destroy many cephalon and as such, almost certainly kept hidden.

However the bigger problem here is that it also partially retconned how cephalon are created, removing the kuva element.

That said, as no full cephalon are actually created, I don't think it's much of a stretch to carry on thinking that kuva is still essential to making complete cephalon, or at least that it was, in the earlier generation, perhaps with it becoming unnecessary as the vitrifying technology was perfected.)

It’s simple, they come back we kill them again. In fact the orokin coming back would be a easy way to end warframe as it would cause every single group to unilaterally unite to ensure their defeat.

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8 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Void energy is the only thing that can destroy kuva clouds and other kuva braids during the war within , it is the only way to disarm kuva guardians as well.

This has less to do with kuva and more to do with Orokin engineering. Kuva has many functions, one of which is as a status symbol. The Orokin engineered safety protocols into everything they built. During the War Within, kuva is shown to "activate" those safety protocols and keep its bearer safe from Orokin constructs – specifically, warframes and Dax soldiers. This is made clear through dialogue:

Elder Queen: "For you see, child, we conceived of these ugly, metal cysts […] We gave you your precious gifts. And now, just as easily, we take them all away!"

Teshin: "Their [the Kuva Guardians] weapons contain kuva. It protects them from your warframe but not from your Tenno powers."

Elder Queen: "We are Orokin! We created you! We are your golden lords!"

So Teshin cannot attack the Queens, and neither can the warframe, which was also made by the Orokin. Additionally, the Queens have taken advantage of this protection by distributing small amounts of kuva to their guards. But the Tenno Operator is just a person, so they have no restrictions on attacking the bearers of kuva. They also happen to have a weapon (Void energy) to attack with; otherwise it'd just be a scrawny teenager attacking a trained soldier with their fists. The Void energy is just the weapon of convenience. Note that, once kuva bearers are separated from the kuva (eg disarming the Guardians or stealing the Queen's sceptre), the Orokin safety protocols are no longer in effect – because they're tied to the kuva. So once a Kuva Guardian is disarmed, the warframes can attack them, and once the Queen loses her sceptre, Teshin can kill her. They no longer have kuva and are no longer protected.

So the Operator's use of Void energy to deal with kuva-equipped enemies (or the kuva clouds themselves) is not indicative of any quality of the kuva itself.

8 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I am not sure kuva (or other tech including transference ) even existed before the void breach.

Albrecht Entrati's memoirs (unlocked by ranking up with the Entrati and the Necraloid) reveal this information. He first implies it in the Xata entry (which deals with his motivation for exploring the Void) when he says "immortal as we are – we die with the sun." According to the Khra entry, he is already centuries old by the time of his first journey into the Void. He also references the kuva in the Netra entry, though this is understood to take place much later. He implies that he has already used kuva to perform Continuity many times.

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31 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

This has less to do with kuva and more to do with Orokin engineering. Kuva has many functions, one of which is as a status symbol. The Orokin engineered safety protocols into everything they built. During the War Within, kuva is shown to "activate" those safety protocols and keep its bearer safe from Orokin constructs – specifically, warframes and Dax soldiers. This is made clear through dialogue:

Elder Queen: "For you see, child, we conceived of these ugly, metal cysts […] We gave you your precious gifts. And now, just as easily, we take them all away!"

Teshin: "Their [the Kuva Guardians] weapons contain kuva. It protects them from your warframe but not from your Tenno powers."

Elder Queen: "We are Orokin! We created you! We are your golden lords!"

So Teshin cannot attack the Queens, and neither can the warframe, which was also made by the Orokin. Additionally, the Queens have taken advantage of this protection by distributing small amounts of kuva to their guards. But the Tenno Operator is just a person, so they have no restrictions on attacking the bearers of kuva. They also happen to have a weapon (Void energy) to attack with; otherwise it'd just be a scrawny teenager attacking a trained soldier with their fists. The Void energy is just the weapon of convenience. Note that, once kuva bearers are separated from the kuva (eg disarming the Guardians or stealing the Queen's sceptre), the Orokin safety protocols are no longer in effect – because they're tied to the kuva. So once a Kuva Guardian is disarmed, the warframes can attack them, and once the Queen loses her sceptre, Teshin can kill her. They no longer have kuva and are no longer protected.

So the Operator's use of Void energy to deal with kuva-equipped enemies (or the kuva clouds themselves) is not indicative of any quality of the kuva itself.

I only partially agree with the "control mechanisms" , it existed but was implemented more as a genetic and psychological lock on Warframes and other servants of the orokin. (Also evident during the sacrifice, one of the Simaris lores and Ivara leverian). Something like "you cannot harm those with Orokin genes or those wielding Kuva", but this was a double edged sword as genetic matter and kuva could be stolen and so you could bypass that condition partially.

Void energy is the weapon of convenience sure (just like kuva is the tool of convenience), but it is also the only weapon available to the tenno operators , i have not encountered anything else that can absorb and resist kuva so far (except kuva siphons which itself are made of kuva i think). Void energy can conveniently do whatever it needs to do to progress the plot as i highlighted earlier , so can kuva.

Maybe if in the future the operator can use non void based techniques and still do these things i will change my opinion , but so far I maintain there is a relation between kuva and void energy.

59 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

Albrecht Entrati's memoirs (unlocked by ranking up with the Entrati and the Necraloid) reveal this information. He first implies it in the Xata entry (which deals with his motivation for exploring the Void) when he says "immortal as we are – we die with the sun." According to the Khra entry, he is already centuries old by the time of his first journey into the Void. He also references the kuva in the Netra entry, though this is understood to take place much later. He implies that he has already used kuva to perform Continuity many times.

7 hours ago, TheArcSet said:

They may be connected, but kuva certainly existed and was used, for a very long time before the void was accessed.

The first entry is kinda poetic , i am not sure which part to take as fact and which as romanticism honestly.

There is no specific mention of kuva in the first (Xata) entry , and immortality may mean different things from philosophical point of view of a species, a race ,a civilization or a people by preservation of knowledge, it may indeed be a literal immortality of the body as well but it could be due to other mechanisms like genetic modification , transplants or memory preservation, difficult to say for certain.

There is defintely mention of kuva in the later entries, but there is no defined time period, this would have made things easier to put in order, but it is sufficiently long that they have managed to expand to most of the origin system and beyond this could be as litle as a few centuries to a couple of millennia hard to say , but kuva is absolutely needed for changing skins as highlighted in his Netra entry.

There is a possibility of kuva existing before the void breach , but it is not a certainty.

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