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Adding an Incentive to using Ranged Weapons by Modifying a Current Melee Mechanic


Zero_Reborn
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From observing many high level builds, it is clear that melee is very strong.

One reason for this is the fact that ranged weapons can be built around melee weapons

(e.g. Applying statuses with AoE weapons and then smacking them with Condition Overload on a stick).

 

I believe we can encourage the inverse of that by adding ways to build melee weapons around ranged weapons.

I suggest making the lifted status proc from melee weapons more prominent and while also revealing weak points on enemies.

More specifically:

  • Also applying the lifted status from slide attacks and bullet jump attacks (on top of slam attacks)
  • Adding mods that affect lifted status duration, range, and/or weak point generation/size
  • Adding mods that increase damage/critical chance/status chance when striking weak points
  • (Potentially) decreasing weak point bonuses based on weapon AoE size and/or multishot

By implementing these changes I hope to encourage more diversity in gameplay by adding more options for endgame viable builds.

I can see there being a potential issue with future weapons needing to fit into either a "support" or "damage" role.

Perhaps when raw damage is less relevant, we can see a rise in using more utility oriented weapons.

Please also note that I have not gotten very deep into the late game so some of my opinions may not be accurate.

Thank you for reading this suggestion. Feedback is appreciated. I'll try to respond when I can.

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That's sort of what they've been doing with the Dual-Wielding (pistol-glaive) combo mods. I'm not sure how many people actually use them, though, because it always comes down to "why make each other better with extra conditions when I can use the slot to make each better separately?"

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11 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

That's sort of what they've been doing with the Dual-Wielding (pistol-glaive) combo mods. I'm not sure how many people actually use them, though, because it always comes down to "why make each other better with extra conditions when I can use the slot to make each better separately?"

That's a good point, I actually forgot about those. 

The main purpose of introducing this change as a mechanic instead of mods, however, is to allow someone to run ranged weapons primarily with melee as a support tool rather than the other way around.

Unlike the mods, the idea here isn't to make both better, rather to make one or multiple of your ranged weapons better by giving players the option build the rest of their arsenal around the ranged weapons. The effect I hope to achieve here is similar to that of building high status primaries and secondaries while also slapping gladiator mods on sentinel weapons and warframes. Obviously it won't be as intense since there are no comparable set mods (I guess an argument can be made for vigilante).

 

11 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

There are arcanes that basically do what you’re suggesting, and no one uses them.

There are two concerns I have with using arcanes to achieve this effect:

  • Arcanes require more farming than mods to be viable, since you need many copies of one rather than just one you can max individually
  • Using an arcane takes up 1 of 2 slots that can be used for more powerful effects, such as refilling squad energy and health regen

Also, which arcanes are you referring to? The only one I can think of is primary charger and that's actually a pretty decent arcane. The problem I see is that there are no other similar effects, along the other 2 problems I identified above.

The purpose of using weakpoints in lieu of a flat damage buff was to include something unique to ranged gameplay: aiming.

Then again, I haven't gotten very deep into the late game, so if these arcanes are not as good as I think they are, let me know. I'm curious as to why people don't use them as often.

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19 hours ago, Zero_Reborn said:

 

I believe we can encourage the inverse of that by adding ways to build melee weapons around ranged weapons.

I believe achieving this is going to be Way Way Harder than you think....

The main reason is because if you are close enough to Smack Enemies.... Why on earth would you use your guns especially if you've smacked them once already to reveal Weak Points ?

This is is Made worse by the fact that when you Aim... You are zoomed in and not only that... This Zoom distance is not a setting you can adjust in the game's menu.... It's a Weapon Stat that can only be Adjusted by mods. 

The reason why this is an Issue is because aiming at enemies that are already close enough to Smack with Melee is extremely finicky.... Especially if you've adjusted your sensitivity settings for a Mid Range Distance like I have....

 

Perhaps if there's a game mod where enemies start close and we Create distance and then shoot then this might be a good idea since this inverted Method of playing would fit the inverted Method of utility.... but in the game right now it wouldn't work.... I mean it would but it would be cumbersome and pointless.

 

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21 hours ago, Lutesque said:

The main reason is because if you are close enough to Smack Enemies.... Why on earth would you use your guns especially if you've smacked them once already to reveal Weak Points ?

Admittedly, this is the most glaring issue with the idea. The only thing differing this from the current method of weakening with ranged  > finishing with melee is the order in which you do them (and which weapon is doing what). However, I think this will still be effective in eliminating some of the unbalance between melee and ranged weapon viability.

 

22 hours ago, Lutesque said:

This is is Made worse by the fact that when you Aim... You are zoomed in and not only that... This Zoom distance is not a setting you can adjust in the game's menu.... It's a Weapon Stat that can only be Adjusted by mods. 

Another good issue you bring up. I would argue though that this is not that big of a deal since Warframe is a very mobile game; you can (almost) always just slide or bullet jump away from the enemy before aiming at them. I see no difference between this and closing the distance between you and an enemy to hit them with melee. And in the cases where you can't make distance, well - what system doesn't have weaknesses? Most melee weapons are ineffective in sniping enemies across the Plains of Eidolon.

 

22 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Perhaps if there's a game mod where enemies start close and we Create distance and then shoot then this might be a good idea since this inverted Method of playing would fit the inverted Method of utility....

I agree completely. I originally had in mind slam attacks hitting only enemies at the edge when I was thinking about this, but closer enemies would indeed be harder to shoot. We would definitely need some melee mods/functionality changes that could create distance between enemies and the player.

I should add that my original intention for extending the lifted status to slide and bullet jump attacks was to address this a little. In both cases you are moving past your enemy and thus creating some distance.

 

22 hours ago, Lutesque said:

but in the game right now it wouldn't work.... I mean it would but it would be cumbersome and pointless.

Barring the points I made earlier, I disagree with this point. Once again, Warframe is a very mobile game and I don't think pressing the melee button every once in a while as you move around to set up for ranged weapon kills is that cumbersome. Players already bullet jump, slide, and double jump a lot to get around. I can see the cumbersome argument stemming from how some of these attacks are animation locked, so that is something that might need to be changed.

Is this pointless? Possibly. But I think this would much better than a straight damage buff to primaries and secondaries. Many people thought wall latch and aim glide was useless when it came out, but they both have some utility in parkour (giving players more breathing room between moves). Adding the ability to build around some innate cc for melee weapons could help with scanning things. Hell, maybe even reduce the effectiveness with combo multiplier so melee isn't made any stronger than it already is. This way you can build a melee specifically for survivability. The door is open to different ways this can be implemented/changed.

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20 minutes ago, Zero_Reborn said:

Another good issue you bring up. I would argue though that this is not that big of a deal since Warframe is a very mobile game; you can (almost) always just slide or bullet jump away from the enemy before aiming at them. I see no difference between this and closing the distance between you and an enemy to hit them with melee.

You must be a Mouse and Keyboard user....

Granted the Flick Stick Style in Steam now allows you to perform those maneuvers with a controller more Easily but that's still Controller Dependent and not an Option for Console players....

As for the Highlighted Section specifically:

The reason why it makes sense for Guns to act as Status Appliers for Melee Weapons and not the Other way around is because in most Cases enemies come from far away.... Hence if you prefer to play using Melee then modding your Guns as Status Appliers makes sense because while you are not in Range for melee you there's literally nothing else you can do except Shoot enemies and Close in on them.... Since these Two Methods are not mutually exclusive in Warframe... The strategy works and doesn't come across as awkward....

However if you flip it the other way around.... You would then have to first Close in on the Enemies to hit them then Build Distance again to shoot them.... Which is extremely clumsy.... Infact it's so clumsy that DE might actually do that.... Just because 😝 !!!

30 minutes ago, Zero_Reborn said:

And in the cases where you can't make distance, well - what system doesn't have weaknesses? Most melee weapons are ineffective in sniping enemies across the Plains of Eidolon.

Ironically this is a really good point.... Most people don't have the insight to make points like this 👍 !!!

31 minutes ago, Zero_Reborn said:

Barring the points I made earlier, I disagree with this point. Once again, Warframe is a very mobile game and I don't think pressing the melee button every once in a while as you move around to set up for ranged weapon kills is that cumbersome.

It is in on Controller... Trust me... It's well Documented at this point 😱 !!!

32 minutes ago, Zero_Reborn said:

Players already bullet jump, slide, and double jump a lot to get around.

Getting around and Killing Enemies are easy enough tasks to do Individually.... But doing them simulatenously is extremely difficult... I think Doom is the only game where I've managed to do it comfortably.

Vanquish, Titanfall and Infinite Warfare were just me fumbling around the room Shooting at the Ceiling....

 

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

You must be a Mouse and Keyboard user....

I am indeed a mouse and keyboard user. That explains a lot about our different viewpoints, huh!

 

27 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

You would then have to first Close in on the Enemies to hit them then Build Distance again to shoot them.... Which is extremely clumsy....

Good point. I envisioned initiating fights with melee and closing it out by shooting them with ranged but having to disengage before shooting them does make it very clunky. This could be remedied with mods/functionality that can push away enemies after lifting them (or vice versa), but then this would mean more work needed just to get something to work.

Ultimately I think mine is a flawed solution to a current problem. I still want to leave this up in the air for someone else or maybe even DE to potentially consider or build off of.

Edited by Zero_Reborn
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... I can't really understand the pressure imposition on WeAk PoInTs... No, seriously, I don't really feel any of those suggestions actually matter but, again, 97% of my Melee kills are headshots so~...

 

... Yeah, I'll just... go...

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This is an idiotic idea. Have you played Warframe? Do you know how many particle affects are in this game? You are never going to see those weak spots to save your life. Ranged is weak because in time it takes to kill one mob with a ranged weapon, you can kill an entire pack with a melee weapon. Conditional Overload just makes this a little easier, but the underlying problem is that.

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1 hour ago, ZenHare said:

This is an idiotic idea. Have you played Warframe? Do you know how many particle affects are in this game? You are never going to see those weak spots to save your life. Ranged is weak because in time it takes to kill one mob with a ranged weapon, you can kill an entire pack with a melee weapon. Conditional Overload just makes this a little easier, but the underlying problem is that.

I can used Banshee's sonar weak points just fine in anything short of a Bubonico spam storm. If what the OP's is suggest visually works similar to that, I see no problem.

And I'm sure DE working to address that as we go along. Just like how Meme Strike was gradually nerfed in a series of updates spanning almost a year.

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23 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

I can't really understand the pressure imposition on WeAk PoInTs...

It was to emphasize that the weak point idea was introducing a new mechanic to the game and not necessarily related to any currently existing weak point mechanics.

I'm sorry my formatting has caused you distress.

 

12 hours ago, ZenHare said:

Do you know how many particle affects are in this game? You are never going to see those weak spots to save your life.

I have played enough railjack to understand your frustration with visual overload. As a counter-point, the headshot mechanic exists in this game. There are mods that build off that mechanic, and DE has announced in their recent workshop that they are planning on adding arcanes and mods that make it even stronger. This idea is functionally similar, except it adds more "heads" and some melee interaction with the gunplay.

Another point that has already been mentioned before: DE will probably address this. One key mechanic in shooter games like Warframe is the ability to aim. If some part of the game unintentionally interferes with this, it will probably be fixed.

 

12 hours ago, ZenHare said:

Ranged is weak because in time it takes to kill one mob with a ranged weapon, you can kill an entire pack with a melee weapon.

This is definitely one factor contributing to the unbalance between ranged and melee weapons. My idea was not intended to address this, but there are some ways to implement it that would help. It's possible for the weak points to explode when struck and do some AoE in addition to the damage buff. Maybe reduce this effect with higher fire rates since a high fire rate allows you to switch targets quicker and mow down packs of mobs.

 

10 hours ago, GuardWarg said:

I can use Banshee's sonar weak points just fine in anything short of a Bubonico spam storm.

Thank you for bringing this up. My original idea was something exactly like that, with the weak points a little more obvious since I was imagining synthesis target points. For something more unique, we could also have certain parts highlighted similar to how codex/synthesis scanners highlight objects. Obviously some kind of way to adjust its visibility would be needed to make it less obnoxious for some players.

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