Helminth Grows a New Appetite: 30.5 Update!

[(PSN)TONI__RIBEIRO]

7 minutes ago, martin19735 said:

Almost all the frames already are good, this will just be a way to add more build diversity for a week, warframes not being good was never the problem, i don't get your message

The need of buffs to warframes shouldn't be necessary for players to want to play them, this won't make me play with frames that I don't like, this will only mess up every pre made squad recruitment.

[moondog548]

On 2021-06-19 at 9:29 AM, moondog548 said:

I love everything here so hard

Now that I've had the time to read everyone's screeds and reflect, I do have to amend my simple first reaction.

 

1) We must be compensated for the frames we already subsumed at cap.

 

2) Invigorations are a great idea, but in the haystack of this thread their are several good suggestions for how to make them better. Permanent warframe buffs are NOT it. (Enshrining the power creep is a hell-no!)

[martin19735]

il y a 2 minutes, (PSN)TONI__RIBEIRO a dit :

The need of buffs to warframes shouldn't be necessary for players to want to play them, this won't make me play with frames that I don't like, this will only mess up every pre made squad recruitment.

Maybe you won't but some others might, and remember that all missions in game can be done fast and easy without the buffs with the right setup, maybe not make a buff that adds strength to chroma, but imagine one that gives him range, he can become a team buffer and encourage people to play him in different missions, if this is done right, i can't see it being an issue, look at arbitrations, you can play them without the buffed frame, same with this

[Engilore]

Son has been busy developing new bio-technologies for Helminth. Visit SON in the Necralisk on DEIMOS to obtain the New Segment required to upgrade your Helminth to perform a new operation: Invigorations! 

Our main objective with this system expansion is really simple: give players a way to engage with Warframes they may not have used in a while!

 

is it really hard to actully ....you know check in what abilities arend used at all and buff them rather than made this....?

[SordidDreams]

20 hours ago, MescalineChef said:

I have already subsumed all the warframes...now I have to grind up the helminth rep to max again? WHY? I have mastered helminth why will I have to master him again? This feels like hitting MR30 then having the xp changed so I am no longer MR 30....

No, you know what this is? You reach an MR, any MR, but don't take your test immediately. Instead, you continue ranking weapons and frames and earning MR points. When you take your test, all that excess XP is just gone, you've not earned any progress toward the next MR at all. And that XP is gone for good, there's no way to get it back. That's what this is.

As should be clear from the above, DE figured out how to handle this kind of situation ages ago when they made the MR system, so I'm not sure why they're fouling it up so badly now.

[Noacil]

INVIGORATIONS: pls No

Please focus on systems like pets 2.0, augment mods that are almost mandatory or useless.

The warframes are already absurdly strong, they have created this system to encourage the use of little used warframes, but people will only use it when they have the RNG to activate in a Saryn + 200% strength and the like and ignore the rest

[Lakais]

I get the concerns that people have with Invigoration. I have them too. But I am also wondering if the issue is really this pressing. Will the feared situations happen? Yes, they will. Will they be the norm? No they won't. 

I'm arguing that this elitism problem will only be truly a problem in the highest tiers of play. A small section of players. If they want to sit around in a circle, patting themselves on the back for the biggest numbers next to a "You need to be THIS tall" poster, let them. That's their fun. I'll be here with my mates having a jolly good time giving our all if we can actually manage to do their first successful full eidolon run. 

Secondly is the fact that this system will be inherently random as to on what frame and what buff you will be getting. One week you're everyone's best friend and then for two months you get nothing special.

[Graavarg]

Invigorations might work well enough, as long as there is complete random factor involved both in selecting the warframes and the buffs, and there are a lot of buffs to chose from.

The chance to get a specific warframe among "the three" is around 6.4 % per week, if this is coupled with a random selection from 10 buffs (just as an example) the chance to get a 200% strength Khora is 0.64 % (per week). Even elitist idiots would be a challenged trying to put together some specific "invigorated" team (😁). And who wants to play with such a-holes anyway...

The only problems will arise from the "selectable" warframe mechanic, which btw is a really dumb idea. Just keep it totally random. Some weeks you'll have three "not-so-good" options, another you might have three "godly options", mostly something in between. And FFS don't start mixturing with specific abilitites for specific warframes, just let the RNG roll.

[KIREEK]

The abilities seem meh to me, it all depends on the stats, for example to find ayatan statues, while it's good if you have everything scanned, if you manage to place a range limitation then it will be worthless, a good eyesight on the ninimap will always be better.

As for INVIGORATIONS, to me they seem great, the RNG factor may make things a bit less reliable, it would be nice if we could actually choose the buffs we get after the 10th week, but with or without RNG, i'm all in on those.

[Kegnor97]

En 18/6/2021 a las 8:40, 16Bitman dijo:

INVIGORATIONS"

Are pretty horrible.

Instead of pushing us to play Warframes we don't like, players will instead demand +200% power strength buffs for certain activities.

Farming Harrow? Better have a 300% Power Strength +200% Helminth Power Strength Wisp on you or you're not invited!

 

We will also have to really carefully use our 10+ buff of choice for events, if you use it on the wrong Warframe, you will be at a severe disadvantage to make it big on the leaderboards.

I wouldn't be so sure to call this "forcing us to use warframes we don't like" I see it more as giving us a reason to use warframes we don't regularly use. Yes, an extra ability stregth buff might be out of other warframes reach, but some warframes have a damage output so low that an extra buff may just put them on par with others instead of breaking the game, as to events, Ill just say that we had the riven system for a while now and they have not broken any event yet (not that I know of at least, feel free to correct me if im wrong) and even if they have, the truth is that by being limited to particular players they can hardly affect scores which are determined by all the members in a clan

[Kegnor97]

hace 6 horas, Engilore dijo:

Son has been busy developing new bio-technologies for Helminth. Visit SON in the Necralisk on DEIMOS to obtain the New Segment required to upgrade your Helminth to perform a new operation: Invigorations! 

Our main objective with this system expansion is really simple: give players a way to engage with Warframes they may not have used in a while!

 

is it really hard to actully ....you know check in what abilities arend used at all and buff them rather than made this....?

The thing about buffing is that not all abilities can be fixed with a simple number change, you could buff Inaros sandstorm for example, by increasing its damage, but the problem with sandstorm is that it offers no strategic advantage and even though it looks cool at first, its charm is lost pretty quickly, you cant change that with a simple number increase.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

Can we swap 2 abilities? One from Other frames and one from Helminth (including new ones). There are plenty of frames that have 2 crappy abilities and they don't seem to be touched for a few years anyway so why not let us swap a bit more as a "temporary" solution?

[Hixlysss]

I have to say the "IF you are already max, you will only be able to get XP by doing invigorations/Infusions" is...kinda S#&$. I mean I haven't subsumed all the warframes, but I reached rank 10 *long* ago, like several subsumed warframes ago. And I can only imagine all the folks who have subsumed all the warframes are also very annoyed at this, considering subsuming did give quite a chunk of XP for ranking up helminth. And that you can reach max rank after only a few frames, and then continue to do so because neato powers and ect, not knowing that Helminth would get even more levels...kinda just seems...insulting, when one of the fastest ways to level up helminth is to subsume warframes...and now that some of us have...'oversubsumed' effectively, and get no bonus levels? Not even a bonus affinity gain to Infusions/Invigorations? Nothing to speed up the process when we have unknowingly used up one of the best level up options? Cmon DE you're better than this.

[Radu10]

On 2021-06-19 at 6:37 PM, Blyker said:

I do not understand this. If this won't matter at all like you said then what does it matter that they introduce this? For me i might try a frame like Wukong for instance, a frame that i normally never use

I stated all the reasons why is bad, first of all, we never needed those buffs even when fighting level cap enemies.

Second, this will have consequences to entire game, starting from recruit! I can already see some casual players come back here and being mad 'cause in 4 weeks they never got the right buff for a specific frame, and 'cause of that get in some farm squads from recruit chat suddenly started be harder as well.

Veterans will have issues if they wanna compete with each other in speedruns to submit to speedruns.com, 'cause to get certain WR you'll have to wait a specific week for a specific buff and then you have 7 days to try it, hoping you get time to play those days.

Clans caring about event leaderboards, those random stats ofc will give huge vantage.

And again the frames which currently suck, will barely be touched even with buffed stats.

The only positive thing is if you get lucky with a specific buff for a frame you can play for a week being a bit better than we currently can be already with the right builds.

This to me doesn't sound worth at all. It's a step closer to getting wf rivens, and those would've at least be permament and obtainable as long as you have plat.

[Radu10]

3 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Invigorations might work well enough, as long as there is complete random factor involved both in selecting the warframes and the buffs, and there are a lot of buffs to chose from.

The chance to get a specific warframe among "the three" is around 6.4 % per week, if this is coupled with a random selection from 10 buffs (just as an example) the chance to get a 200% strength Khora is 0.64 % (per week). Even elitist idiots would be a challenged trying to put together some specific "invigorated" team (😁). And who wants to play with such a-holes anyway...

The only problems will arise from the "selectable" warframe mechanic, which btw is a really dumb idea. Just keep it totally random. Some weeks you'll have three "not-so-good" options, another you might have three "godly options", mostly something in between. And FFS don't start mixturing with specific abilitites for specific warframes, just let the RNG roll.

Have you multiplied the chance you just made (supposing is correct...) by the average number of players in recruit chat?

[TheLexiConArtist]

14 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

Have you multiplied the chance you just made (supposing is correct...) by the average number of players in recruit chat?

I'll do you one better.

Cumulative probability breakpoints (bearing in mind 'one or more players satisfy condition' is our goal) based on 0.64% raw chance of success:

50%: 108 players
90%: 359 players
95%: 467 players
99%: 717 players

But then you also have to separate that among the playerbase of that region, doing that specific thing, at that specific time, wanting to fill that specific role. And the higher the likelihood of players satisfying those conditions (a highly-in-demand activity, such as Eidolon hunting), the larger the number of squads who may be vying for those few lucky hits.

And that's assuming 0.64% is accurate.

 

And if there's no way of validating the claims either unless jumping into a mission and using some sort of buff to display numbers? Yeah, this 'toxic recruiting' concept is not able to exist.

[Radu10]

1 minute ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I'll do you one better.

Cumulative probability breakpoints (bearing in mind 'one or more players satisfy condition' is our goal) based on 0.64% raw chance of success:

50%: 108 players
90%: 359 players
95%: 467 players
99%: 717 players

But then you also have to separate that among the playerbase of that region, doing that specific thing, at that specific time, wanting to fill that specific role. And the higher the likelihood of players satisfying those conditions (a highly-in-demand activity, such as Eidolon hunting), the larger the number of squads who may be vying for those few lucky hits.

And that's assuming 0.64% is accurate.

 

And if there's no way of validating the claims either unless jumping into a mission and using some sort of buff to display numbers? Yeah, this 'toxic recruiting' concept is not able to exist.

I agree. We can't make a proper chance.

Speaking of buffs if DE doesn't spaghetti code:

Linking the frame build needs to show the buffs or let those appear in the players' profile or where it usually says which relic they using.

Excluding recruit (we can't predict the consequences) they still hurted speedruns community, clans seeking for event leaderboards.

And the main goal behind this system (make low used warframes used more) wont even be achieved

I still believe if such a system will ever get added they are needed so many tweaks and changes (I read a few good suggestions in the comments).

Too much work and time that could be used instead reworking the bad frames themselves.

Now that's something every player would like to hear and read

[Diedact]

I'm trying to use a broader variety of warframes, just to spice it up. Overall cool with the idea of Invigorations but getting to manually select an Invigoration every 10? That's 4 weeks (5 if the selected Invigoration can't generate the same week you hit the 10) between choices. A month. I don't want to feel like a month passed of me pressing buttons just to get this one shiny Invigoration. I'd rather you just leave the Invigorations randomized completely, like strength bonuses from arbitrations. You wouldn't want players to only bother with arbitrations the one week they get to manually select what warframe of theirs gets boosted.

This is assuming that you get to select all 3 Invigorations per week, originally my interpretation was that you couldn't but on reflecting that seems foolish. If you could only select 1 then it'd be every 10 weeks (11 including the week you have the selected Invigoration). That just feels rotten, please let me be wrong about that entirely.

[wtflag]

12 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

There are people who still have frames they haven't used in literal years stuck in their top spot because they used to be good and the person played them just that much.

Most cases these aren't the types that are going to be saved by a stat buff either, it's something like Ember getting trashed by mechanical changes.

Well there are a number of ways to do this.

I'm mostly of the opinion that faithful use of a warframe should reward the dedication.

Most Invigoration buffs are strong enough to make even non-meta frames more than capable of steelpath.

 

Otherwise, another possible option is to allow us to subsume a prime warframe and that warframe will always get a Invigoration.

Subsuming a second prime warframe will replace the first, so at any one time, there can only be one "Main frame".

[MiraJune]

 

Quote

GOLDEN INSTINCT (15)

Send out a short-lived Void Spark that is drawn toward the nearest Medallion, Ayatan Sculpture, unscanned Kuria or unscanned Fragment.

I know this is probably a minor concern in the long run, but I think it would be really nice if Golden Instinct was also able to detect rare/reinforced crates as well as sabotage mission cashes. It would be really helpful, and since it is difficult for me to differentiate sounds while in game it would be very welcome to have an alternative way to find these items. I think it could also be a good way to add some more value to this ability overall, and it could elevate the frustration that I have running sabotage missions and being unable to find cashes.

[master_of_destiny]

23 hours ago, Archwizard said:

We have a flower garden marking each frame we've subsumed, each one also puts an item in our inventory marking we've unlocked that subsume, we only get 33 Subsume slots before max level and the current max Helminth level is literally "Unlimited Subsume Slots".
Bearing in mind that Yareli will be Frame #47 so there is a minimum well of untapped XP.

I'll grant that there's nothing to say whether it tracked how much XP of the first 10 levels was devoted to the 33 subsume slots it gave us, but at the very least if you have more than that it shouldn't be hard to code a "if subsume.count() > 33: helminth.xp += subsume_xp * (subsume.count() - 33)" style script.
Yes, the syntax I've put there is simplified I'm sure, but everything logically necessary for something like it to work is already there.

 

Might I offer one better?  Let's actually do some insane math here.  

The helminth xp is influenced by the number of subsumes, the number of items fed to it, and the number of powers assigned.  Theoretically, the only time you'd "lose" any xp is if you removed or over wrote the abilities assigned to a frame.  As such, it's trivial to look at the list of frames, and assume as a minimum the amount of materials required to get that subsumed quantity.  That is to say, we can sum everything up.

 

In practice:

xp_warframe = n_warframe*1600   Maximum is 1600*46 = 73600

xp_resources = c_subsume*6.66  This is to say something like Shuriken costs 50% Calx, 77% Pheremones, and 80% Bile for 207% materials, or about 1379 xp.  Assuming about 200 resources per subsume (because the math sucks and I cannot be bothered), 200*46*6.66 = 61272

 

This would mean that the absolute smallest amount of xp earned by someone would be 134872....and we know that's a vast undervaluation give that you'd also have resources in the bank, and you cannot even level up fully without applying at least a few infusions...because DE designed their subsume limits as such.  It's also a fast estimate, so actual resource counts would give us likely more as a minimum valuation.  

 

Now...the level 10 rank for helminth requires 73125 accumulated xp.  The scheme for ranking up is rank_n=rank_n-1+1125 for ranks greater than 1, with rank one costing 2250.  that is to say, our rank costs would be as follows going forward:

Rank	Rank Cost	Cumulative Cost
1	2250	2250
2	3375	5625
3	4500	10125
4	5625	15750
5	6750	22500
6	7875	30375
7	9000	39375
8	10125	49500
9	11250	60750
10	12375	73125
11	13500	86625
12	14625	101250
13	15750	117000
14	16875	133875
15	18000	151875

 

Hmmm.....it almost looks like, assuming the most basic of minimum costing calculations, DE can reasonably assume that players with all the subsumes will have rank 14 earned...and anyone with two brain cells to rub together will then reasonably assume that rank 15 is pretty much assured given that 200 resources per subsume IS A LOW ESTIMATE.  Oh, and they designed the system at low levels to force you to apply abilities so you have at least rank 15 earned.

 

 

Now, why am I not stressing over any of this?  I don't care.  The Helminth is now basically a way to take frames that need a rework, and alleviate that burden from DE.  Anything amazing eats a hard nerf, anything good eats a minor nerf, and those trying to sell this to us otherwise are demonstrating "insane 1 million plus damage" on edge cases that rarely seem to be realized in gameplay...especially when most random groups consist of people running around with either nuke abilities or Ignis Wraiths.

This is a system that should matter.  Those that want rank 15 will rapidly earn it by sinking resources, so  there's very little reason to stress.  People claiming otherwise seem to believe that it's unfair.  I'm sitting atop a completed Helminth, and can tell you I see nothing insane here.  Especially not compared to the 46 days it takes to subsume all the powers to even be able to start this discussion. 

Remember 151875-73125 = 78750.  78750-1600 = 77150.  77150-(6.66*200) = 75818.  To get to max rank you'll need to subsume Yaereli, and get 75818 more points.  Each assigned ability is about 800 points (the values do vary wildly).  They use 200 resources.  That's about 2132 points per ability assigned, or 35.56 ability assignments.  That is of course about 3 days of work....assuming you optimize resource assignments and point earnings...

 

You're telling me that people are absolutely going nuts over something that DE could easily give players 4 levels on, and if not they might be forced to wait about 4 days for...in a system THAT REQUIRED 46 DAYS TO GET ACCESS TO FULLY.  A system hidden behind a MR cap, 46 builds requiring 84 hours each, and extra frame slots just to have a frame to sacrifice for.

Does anybody really think that this is a problem after factoring in everything else?  I can't say I do....but maybe that's because I'm prioritizing the announced dramatic grind increase that forces more steel path engagement, more acolyte engagement, and all so that we can get the gun equivalent of a slightly worse arcane version of the mods that drop like candy from Deimos.  Oh, but the Galvanized mods will exist....so we can get new versions of mods that will rapidly be useless at high levels because the equivalent of the BFG (the Opticor) cannot even keep up reasonably on the Steel Path, specifically when the requirement to engage these arcanes is on kill...so a 3 second charge on a bonus means if it takes 2 shots to kill I'm at 6 seconds assuming no reloads...and that's how much of the duration of the buff?

 

 

Ohh.  Let's lose our minds over the inability to get access to a limited use version of primed animal instinct instead.  As a note, because the game is built on RNG the rare crates have a limited spawn location set.  Said spawn location is fixed per tile.  As such, after you've seen enough of this game, locating rare stuff is trivial.  Fly past a tile with the minimap up, and look for something in an uncommon spawn area, boom.  Stuff found.  You're giving up a power for an indicator....so you don't have to pay attention, but are willing to spend the slot and energy.  This is silly from where I sit...but whatever.

[MistressMoonpaw]

Not gonna lie, kinda upset they didnt pick my helminth ability from design council.

[Graavarg]

11 hours ago, Radu10 said:

Have you multiplied the chance you just made (supposing is correct...) by the average number of players in recruit chat?

I don't understand what you mean. The chance for each and every player is the same, regardless of the number of players in the chat.

I have no idea of the number of players in the recruit chat, but roughly 1 per 200 of them will have a Khora with extra power strength. That is assuming that they all have a built & modded Khora and that there are only ten different buffs a warframe can get. If you increase the number of buffs to 20, the amount of "Khora with power strength" drops to half (roughly 1 in 400). And of course all this also assumes that those with a "power strength Khora" are interested in joining an "elitist" squad (my guess would be that a clear majority "isn't interested", since the number of "elitist"-wannabes seems to be rather small).

I see no problem with any of this, just pointing out that über-elitist anal-retentives looking for a certain specific Khora (or any other specific warframe + buff combo) is going to have a really hard time getting a team together. So I cannot see how that would become a problem, if they really are willing to spend hours in recruit chat that it is totally ok by me. As for anyone getting their feelings hurt by not being experienced enough or having good enough equipment, grow up.

And just for the record, playing "elitist Warframe" and politely setting clear limits for squad members is completely ok. That a few "elitists" also are toxic sh*theads is another problem altogether. And the pseudo-elitist contingent (players setting limits for others joining the squad that they couldn't pass themselves) is simply ridiculous.

[KlaussKlauss]

Tbh I was concerned that the Helminth system was going to receive an update that would make it more than a patch work gimmick resource sink. This is because after hitting 9 rank, I think, I even totally neglected to subsume frames that I already have built, the whole thing being useless and all. I was concerned I would be missing out on something with the update and don't forget FOMO leads to grind, grind leads to $$$. 

Now I am totally chill, thanks DE. Don't even remember where that chair room is and now I don't have to. Best QoL update ever!

[Chewarette]

Aww yiss, powercreep, totally what we needed

Will the invigorations buffs stack with Arbitrations' ?