Helminth Grows a New Appetite: 30.5 Update!

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

17 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

Eidolons, SE farms, resources farms, specific endless missions when host is trying get an efficient squad.
People focusing on doing leaderboards score missions, or speedruns to submit to speedrun.com, operations with leaderboards (OV for example)

All those categories 'cause player like you wont mind a buff to crack a relic in a capture fissure.

And hey let's not forget the main reason behind those rng buffs, DE trying make people use bad warframes, whenever rng decides those will be buffed.

While in reality those frames needs an actual rework to be viable, this system wont change a thing in this matter.

Let's be happy and agree with DE decisions, am I right?

You're free to make your own group as well.

[-MG-CephalonCinnamon]

Just now, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Now there's another option for those without an extra titania.

except that if you have a high enough rank helminth to have the ability you probably have titania already (spare normal or original normal cuz you have the prime) and and the titania ability also applies to allies.

[carbonwolf314]

The randomness of the 'invigorations' system is a terrible idea.

 if you could nerf the bonuses but give control of what frames get what bonuses to the players it could make this a decent system and allow the players to disable and re-enable the bonuses at any time that week.

If the bonuses stay random it could limit and quite possibly ostracize some players from recruiting/being recruited for that week and limit what these players could do for that week.

 

Everything else seems balanced but the 'invigorations' system seem a bit to random for it to be effective in its current state but if the aforementioned changes were to be implemented this could help fix some of the flaws in the randomness of the 'invigorations' system.

Obviously this change idea isnt perfect but its what i can come up with as a chage to the system so its more helpful for more players.

[Radu10]

I'll say this again, 'cause everyone here is missing the main reason behind this system idea nobody asked for...

DE is trying make people use bad warframes, whenever rng decides those will be buffed.

While in reality those frames needs an actual rework to be viable, this system wont make any difference.

Will just screw up some player categories, and give random buffs appreciated by those playing this game more casually.

Do we need this system? 

[MoonYuTsu]

Yeah, I'll throw my Torch on the Pyre:
 

• Invigorations - please no. RNG-based power creep, just get rid of this.... and the Arbitration Boosts don't make me want to use frames/weapons I don't want to use - they fail at their job of encouraging variety, for me and likely others. Either the Arbitration is a gamemode I want to play, in which case I'll just use a frame I want to use and ignore the boost... it's a mode I don't hate, in which case I might play it if the boost it something I wanted to use, or I'll ignore it otherwise... or it's a mode I hate, in which case no, the boost will not make me touch it no matter how good it is. Invigorations, I don't see being any different - I'll play what I want to play and ignore the boosts, and probably feel bitter when none of the random options are something I want to play. They're not going to make me play things I don't want to play just because you gave them a random super-boost. This is going to fail at the likely same job as Arbitration Boosts have.

Quote

Helminth Workshop FAQ: 

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

Cataclysmic oof. Is there zero chance you'd reconsider this? Because it kind of feels like a slap in the face if you already farmed out and fed most/all of the frames - people that got most of their ranks from infusing and only farmed/fed a couple of frames are going to have a waste-free way to rank their Helminth up into the new ranks by feeding said unfed frames, while people with a mostly/totally complete Helminth are just going to have to waste tons of resourced on infusions they don't want just to max it out...

[-MG-CephalonCinnamon]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You're free to make your own group as well.

except you'll be less efficient in farms, and will be unable to outscore them on the leaderboards, and people will be looking to join those buffed groups not your unbuffed group

[master_of_destiny]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

You want combination, not permutations. 47 frames (including Yareli as she'll be released with this) means nCr = 16,215 combinations, as opposed to nPr(47,3) = 97,290 permutations.

Dev video only showed 2 buffs per frame. Where are you getting 3 buffs per frame?

I don't like the idea of Invigorations either, but keep your speculations a bit more accurate.

 

You didn't pay attention to the later logic, nor the comment about what we currently have.  It's amazing that you have the assumptions, but refuse to agree with them before inserting your own and claiming inaccuracy.  Though I do appreciate the attempt to keep me honest, it's a pretty scummy implementation. 

What you should have caught is an extra 3 used in the calculations....but as you didn't I'll explain why it's only 819720 combinations (because I will admit error there).  Note that if you only got each combination once, 819720 weeks (assuming a 52 week year) is more than 15763 years.  I want permutations because the order matters.

 

I have 3 frames, each has one of a pool of buffs.  The buffs are further subdivided into what they offer.  As an example, let's discuss potential values....because DE didn't yet provide them.

Type - Offense, Defense, Support

Value (Offense) - 200% power strength, 200% primary weapon damage, 300% secondary damage.

 

Excal, Baruuk, and Gredel and frames.  This is one combination as expressed but one permutation when the other data is added in.  This order is 1:(46*45*44), and could be expressed in permutations as E-B-G, E-G-B, B-E-G, B-G-E, E-B-G, and E-G-B.  If I just wanted any three frames that's a combination, but if their selected order influences which buffs are available I need the 6 permutations expressed.  If not I could express the frames as a combination, but would need to express the buffs as a permutation given their random assignment.

Buff Type is Offense, Defense, and Support.  To simplify the math here I fix these.

Bonus is 1, 2, and 3 because we don't have real values....because this info is at best quarter baked.  The permutation are thus very much dependent upon order.  This is not simply combinations.  I'd like to elaborate, but that's 3 potential buff categories, 3 potential actual buffs, and the 6 ways that I could order this finite list of frames.  Yes, (3*2*1)*3*3 = 54 combinations.  If we have 4 frames the list isn't now (4+3+2)*3*3=81, it's (4*3*2)*3*3=216.  This is the break of combination and permutation math.

 

 

 

Now....I'd love to be snarky.  I'd love to point out that this is why we have 336 potential combinations in the Kuva Lich system, instead of 6.  I'd like to do this, but I'm going to refrain from doing so, but only to make this into one last explanation for those who are asking what the heck combination and  permutations differ on.

Excal (Offense - 1), Baruuk (Defense -3), and Grendel (Support - 2) is different than;

Excal (Offense - 1), Baruuk (Defense -3), and Grendel (Support - 3) is different than;

Excal (Offense - 1), Grendel (Defense -3), and Baruuk (Support -2) is different than;

Excal (Offense - 1), Baruuk (Defense -2), and Grendel (Support - 3).  Note that the buff type location is fixed...because DE has explained one of each type of buff exists.

This is obvious, right?  Good.  Same combination of frames, but differing their position matters, and differing their buff value also matters.  That means that the permutation, which is order based, is required.  We account for the bonus types as being fixed at 3, because each is chosen  once and independently.  Likewise we account for the bonus value once, and why it is only given as 3.  This is my error point.  I was thinking without verifying, and added in the 3 frame categories (regular, prime, umbra).  

 

Now, please either explain your  work, or apologize for the high and mighty attitude.  You failed to detect an error, cited a correction which took all of 10 seconds to demonstrate was incorrect, and tried to high road me.  Fantastic.  It's almost like I'm taking this personally because instead of demonstrating the logic you called it out and expected nobody to check.  It's almost like I'm repeating what you did...only I have checks and found an actual error...because math.

[-ShadowRadiance-]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Now there's another option for those without an extra titania.

Hidden behind rank 5 entrati.

I do not, want to even consider, the differences in getting resources.. 

 

Titania parts rng, vs. rank up to family, farm double helminth segments. level it up to.. what rank 12? (what have you ranked it up on? helmith abilites without actually subsuming any frame along the way? except eclipse?)

Im sorry, i cant see it.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 minute ago, -MG-CephalonCinnamon said:

except that if you have a high enough rank helminth to have the ability you probably have titania already (spare normal or original normal cuz you have the prime) and and the titania ability also applies to allies.

There's no law saying you have to use titania specifically. Someone may not have the plat or plants to do the titania mission. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 minute ago, -MG-CephalonCinnamon said:

except you'll be less efficient in farms, and will be unable to outscore them on the leaderboards, and people will be looking to join those buffed groups not your unbuffed group

Are you assuming 100% of the players think this is important or something?

[Radu10]

Just now, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Are you assuming 100% of the players think this is important or something?

you are assuming the exact opposite, still an assumption :)

but most people in those comments seems against this rng system.

Have you wondered why?

[-MG-CephalonCinnamon]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

There's no law saying you have to use titania specifically. Someone may not have the plat or plants to do the titania mission. 

the plants are cheap as S#&$, i did it back when i was low mr (too low to even have helminth if that had been available back then) and it took like 30m of farming, maybe less to get titania.

i know its not a law, but she is the best option (tho ivara is also nice) and easy enough to get, much easier than rank12 helminth thats for sure.

[-MG-CephalonCinnamon]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Are you assuming 100% of the players think this is important or something?

ofc not, but enough where it would impact the whole comunity.

 

i dont care when someone is being 'inefficient' ive helped people and played with people where i'd consider inefficeient, i'd hapily help them figure things out if they cared. but when im going out of my way to farm something i want to be efficient myself, as to not waste time repeating a farm when i could be playing a part of the game i enjoy more. 

and i have seen people who see an inefficient team, and either trash talk from teh duration of the mission or trash talk and abort. so imagine how bad those people would get with this system

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 minute ago, Radu10 said:

you are assuming the exact opposite, still an assumption :)

but most people in those comments seems against this rng system.

Have you wondered why?

Some people think they know how others should play?

[DarkSaint_Exile]

9 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Helminth Workshop FAQ: 

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

 

 

So If I understand this correctly, people that have continued normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions after level 10 will not be rewarded for there grind (non-prime warframes, resources, ect)?

[-ShadowRadiance-]

1 hour ago, DarkSaint_Exile said:

So If I understand this correctly, people that have continued normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions after level 10 will not be rewarded for there grind (non-prime warframes, resources, ect)?

100% correct. 

[Orokin]

Remove Invogorations. These kinds of mechanics don't need to exist.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Here's me to sum it all up: Tedious, Boring and Horrible.

this is just disappointing, and everybody disliked that, no one wants random Warframe buffs, we never liked it in arbitrations and we'll never like it in helminth

and new abilities? those aren't "New" this is just some tedious recycled gimmicks nobody will use

Honestly the only thing i'm looking for in the new update is yareli and DE fixing the UDP port bug for foreigners on PS4

 

other than that, i'm pretty much done with this game.

[-MG-CephalonCinnamon]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Some people think they know how others should play?

some people do, and they are ass hats, and this rng would just fuel their toxic nature.

and others who arent toxic but like to be optimal would just be frustrated when they repeatedly get #*!%ed over by the rng that takes a whole week to reroll, not the 1 hour of arbitraions.

[Radu10]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Some people think they know how others should play?

Also you didn't replied,
Do you think this system will make people use bad warframes, considering that's the reason why DE want add this in the first place.

And do you prefer something added hurting a portion of community instead leaving it like that and actually rework those bad frames?
I doubt you ever desired this system, I wont find you making a suggestion about this anywhere. And you seem to have missed the warframe rivens thing and why it get rejected.

'Cause this system is very close

[Robot_piloting_a_Mech]

Executive summary: I suspect Invigorations won't see much use.  Perhaps it could be incentivized with more player-side influence.

 

I had been trying to come up with a concept like it for a while, and with the new Helminth Invigorations system rolling out soon I might as well put my ideas out there:
Suggested changes to the initial design of Invigorations (my ideas, plus some I saw in this thread):

* Reroll the available options daily

* Offer more frames at once

* Pay secretions to reroll offerings

* Multiple thoughts on duration/availability of a buff once acquired:

    * Allow payment of secretions to keep buff at expiration

    * Allow locking-in or setting aside a frame/buff/slot/something

    * I suspect this goes against the current design philosophy, but keep the applied changes to a frame until a new one is applied or user removes it manually

* Keep secretion costs low

I feel like I may just ignore the system if there are no options that interest me in a given week _and_ it costs secretions to use on frames I wasn't going to play in the first place.  And as-is, even on weeks where it targets a frame I might enjoy, I don't know if I would do anything differently if the secretion costs are too high for a week-long buff.

 

Personally, I'd like to have total control over a more permanent system, so I have a suggestion for a different scheme I've been thinking of for a while:
* Permanently sacrifice a frame's base stats in exchange for permanent boosts to other stats using a point system

* For example, gain one point for giving up 5% max shields and spend a point to gain 5% ability range

* % values need not be equal - ability strength may be valued at 2% per point and armor may be 10% per point

* Sacrifice/gain other bonuses - energy/health regen, health/energy orb efficiency, shield recharge delay/speed, aim glide time, damage weakness/resistance

* Perhaps repurpose (and greatly reduce) the stats currently being considered as Invigoration bonuses

* Give a small number of free points to play around with based on Helminth rank

* No cost to sacrifice/deallocate/reset points, only cost secretions to allocate points

* Apply a hard cap on total point reallocation

* Perhaps even require 2 points to buff each stat, since it's an "unnatural" change to the frame this way

* Perhaps deal in larger granularity - maybe a point is worth 50% of shields or full immunity to a status proc

I'm sure the min/max crowd would like this, but I feel it may also lead to some interesting combinations if there are enough options.  That is, I think this could be especially enticing if it offers more than just stat changes, like passive energy or health regen(as seen in Invigorations), or resistance/immunity to a damage proc.

How do you all feel about this?  Do you think it would be enjoyed by everyone, or only min/max folk?  Would you use this system if it were available?  What would you change?  What are obvious problems?

 

Thank you for your time and consideration,

  - Robot

[-MG-CephalonCinnamon]

3 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

Also you didn't replied,
Do you think this system will make people use bad warframes, considering that's the reason why DE want add this in the first place.

And do you prefer something added hurting a portion of community instead leaving it like that and actually rework those bad frames?
I doubt you ever desired this system, I wont find you making a suggestion about this anywhere. And you seem to have missed the warframe rivens thing and why it get rejected.

'Cause this system is very close

i'd say its worse, with warframe rivens you at least wouldnt be limited to 3 a week and could change the stats to ones useful for what you want to farm with that frame. (and wouldnt have the unfair advantes in leaderboards, tho at least with this, the option of dropping several thousand plat on a riven would be out of the question).

[Yaldabaoth_]

3 hours ago, Vaml77 said:

Forcing players to play with warframes we don't like is the height of disgust. I think this idea needs further elaboration.

No one is forcing you.

[Darkvramp]

9 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

GOLDEN INSTINCT (15)

Send out a short-lived Void Spark that is drawn toward the nearest Medallion, Ayatan Sculpture, unscanned Kuria or unscanned Fragment.

 

could this be used to find derelict vaults too? because these are not going to be in every mission.... and then will have no use, so it has to eventually have a use in one mission eternally.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

8 minutes ago, Yaldabaoth_ said:

No one is forcing you.

If you wanna play multiplayer meta one could.