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Helminth Grows a New Appetite: 30.5 Update!


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1 hour ago, Fireshock said:

As others have pointed out this needs to also work on Sabotage Caches and Rare Containers. Kurias and Fragments are a one-and-done deal which means this ability will have less use if you're already done with those (which, since this is Rank 15, will be almost everybody). Sabotage is a repeatable game mode, so it needs to work with those at minimum.

Maybe it could help you find Derelict Vault Doors too.

Thiss.... so much this^ To begin with, it feels like something that should be on a companion (maybe like an arcane or a mod). Though if they added sabotage containers, derelict vaults, and rare containers as well, THEN it might actually be worth putting on your warframe since a companion might not be fast/responsive enough. 

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6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap.

Why? Since subsuming frames is the highest affinity gain for the system, you're just shooting people in the foot for completing the subsume list.

In fact, I've already added abilities to most frames I wanted to. I'll have to burn resources just to reset the frame and infuse over and over for nothing.

Edited by Deminisis
wording
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I don't like the ideas of invigorations. They are asking for groups to require certain ones to play with them.

If you removed the offensive side of them it would help somewhat, especially as we are already very powerful. 

I think it would help that if once you put it on a frame it stays there. It just sounds too RNG ish at the moment. Maybe be able to choose which buffs go on? You would only be able to have maybe 3 frames invigorated at once though, but maybe need to pay an amount to reapply it each week?

Maybe make the buffs conditional as well, so that you actually need to do stuff for them to activate.

This also just feels like a band-aid for frames that need a rework. I get that you want us to explore different frames than the ones we main, if you based the selection of frames based off of the bottom 50% of frames we play that would also help.

The invigoration system just doesn't feel right and using it to slap random buffs on warframes is just asking for trouble. I feel like the system could be made cooler and more interesting if it felt more "helmith"y instead of just a stat boost. I feel like the system should add something to the way we play a warframe or chage how we play them. Maybe it could let us swap between 2 warframes in mission and you link them through the helminth.

I don't know how to fix it but the system should not be what it is. It should be adding some new helminth mechanic to missions, not just a stat boost.

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Helmint's new abilities are redundant, lazy in design, add nothing new and ultimately, with few exceptions, not worth the effort.

2) The "forgotten" warframes will continue to be forgotten, because they are bad. And a warframe is bad at + 0% strength or + 250% strength. No one will play them for that reason.

You keep "adding" things without adding anything, and have been with this attitude for 3 years.

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Don't know if it's been said but VORACIOUS METASTASIS should not grant energy from instances of it's use if you have VORACIOUS METASTASIS equipped.

Like you can't have two people infinitely casting it back and forth to give infinite energy to the group.

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11 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Our main objective with this system expansion is really simple: give players a way to engage with Warframes they may not have used in a while!

 

I think this fundamentally misunderstands player psychology behind why Warframes are or aren't used. To put it bluntly: players don't ask for a given Warframe, missions do. If I'm running ESO, Limbo isn't my top choice. Saryn isn't going to help me a lot if I'm doing Spy missions. The player tends not to pick the Warframe, but the reward. From there, the reward picks the mission, and the mission picks the Warframe. I don't use Zephyr purely because I want to; I use her because her abilities are useful for fishing, and I want x reward tied to fishing. There's a causal chain, and it doesn't start with "I'm going to use Inaros".

This is also why I know exactly how this system will be used: Invigorate whatever junk one has to get the guaranteed 10th on a Warframe you want it on. I don't know if that would be enough to sway the odds away from useless combinations (e.g. power strength on Loki), which could be high enough that the system just gets forgotten for the sheer time investment / luck / rarity for a temporary boost.

I don't have a way to work around that, given the fundamental nature of the system. But I do have a thought regarding the "useless combinations" part:

You could always have Invigorations grant the given Warframes access to augment-specific slots that would negate augment drain and allow for a full equip of any and all augments for that Warframe. That would provide an increase in power independent of stats (so no power strength on Loki, nor on a speed Nova), allowing for a more natural boost of power. Also, one that isn't quite so reliant on immovable RNG (since we can't expedite Invigoration rolls like we can Riven rolls through sheer farming).

This, plus stockpiling. Say a player gets 7 days to use a given Invigoration. If they complete at least one mission with that Warframe, that day gets counted and the stockpile decreases to 6 days. But if they don't complete any missions with that Warframe, the stored days do not decrease. That is: the player gets 7 in game days to use the new shiny.

The former ensures a roll isn't wasted - free augments are almost always good somewhere. The latter helps work around the causal chain of missions dictating Warframes, allowing those less-used-but-still-upgraded Warframes (and, by proxy, the Invigoration system itself) to be on standby for when they may be useful. I may not need an augmented Equinox tomorrow, but next week, she might be perfect. And that would keep me invested in the system beyond doing junk Invigorations for the guaranteed one.

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Yeah i feel like the "INVIGORATIONS" are really bad, its never going to be used on the way you guys intended, the randomness makes it pretty exclusive for certaint types of contents if you dont have X frame with X Invigoration. I understand you guys want us to dust off frames we dont use but this isnt the way to do it, and honestly i dont think we need a system like that. If i aint playing with a frame its probably cause i dont like playing with it, and the ones that are weaker or "low tier" usually have problems in their Kits, you can give grendel 300% power strength and he will still be pretty janky to play with.

Not only is the RNG part of it really dumb, but also the fact you can only "invigorate" 1 frame a week, and that is a long time especially if the 3 warframes you got offered are frames you dont own or frames you dont really care about. And even when you get a frame you like or care about, the buff itself is random, i can already see memes on reddit like "+melee damage on mesa LuL" already.

Cant we make something like the mr30 relay blessing where you can pick a combination of buffs for a frame of your choice that lasts 24h? i feel a system like that would be more fun to play with and engage with, it would also allow us to experiment with different builds every day instead of being locked to 1 frame a week. For variety you can make it so you cant buff the same frame 2 days in a row or punish players for doing it (kinda like how you cant feed the helminth the same ressource too many times in a row)

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It leaves a bad taste in my mouth that, because I already fed all frames to my helminth, I'm now going to have to pay lots more resources to hit the new cap, because any fed frames past a certain point just threw their helminth xp out the airlock. It won't significantly affect me, but it doesn't feel right.

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Quote

PARASITIC ARMOR (11)

Sacrifice Shields to reinforce Armor for a period of time

Which Frames this is good on (or whether this is good at all) depends on whether the armor is a flat boost or a multiplier to existing armor, and whether the raw shield value or the percentage of maximum shields is what matters when determining how much armor to give in the first place.

Quote

HIDEOUS RESISTANCE (12)

Grant yourself immunity to Status effects.

Why use this when I can use Spellbind or Fire Walker, which do the same thing, but with additional effects?

Quote

VORACIOUS METASTASIS (13)

Consume Energy to heal yourself and grant matching Energy to each ally.

If this is a single cast, I can see Garuda being the new Trinity. If it is continuous, it will put Oberon out of business, especially considering how hard he is to get now.

Quote

SICKENING PULSE (14)

Emit a pulse that adds stacks to Status Effects already afflicting enemies, except Bleed or Toxin effects which are duplicated with fresh timers.

If this does not allow you to go over 10 stacks of the same status, I could just shoot enemies with my status weapon some more, and have four good abilities.

Quote

GOLDEN INSTINCT (15)

Send out a short-lived Void Spark that is drawn toward the nearest Medallion, Ayatan Sculpture, unscanned Kuria or unscanned Fragment.

It seems useful, but maybe not if you want four combat abilities. It seems like this would work better as a gear item. Perhaps another Widget for the Simaris Scanner?

Quote

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

This, to me, encourages pointlessly Infusing abilities onto Warframes and taking them off again, wasting resources for the sake of using them up - especially if you have already subsumed all currently released Warframes and Infused your favorite Warframes with your favorite abilities. Those who have already put the work in will now have to do extra. It does not respect our time. Remember when Mutagen drops were never increased because you wanted to respect the Hema researchers' time? The inconsistency of your logic makes your reasoning seem insincere.

Edited by NeoRetro10K
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So I read on reddit that any xp you gained when subsuming warframes before this update is gone. So you're gonna have to gain the exta 5 levels by repeatedly infusing and removing abilities on a warframe? That's dumb. I mean it won't eat a warframe it already ate.

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I'd have to play around with these, the armor one looks to be interesting if anything, the others are niche looking but who knows, might be diamonds! 

The thing that gets me though is the Invigorations, I get the idea, I do! I can see me using the buffs with frames I considered underpowered or underplayed by me, but having it apply to the WHOLE roster instead of your own Warframes that you already have is a bit silly. 

Why would I use a frame I don't have? often then not the only reason I'm not using a frame is that it doesn't appeal to me in the slightest!  Take Gara for example, not my cup of tea in terms of playstyle, but if I get a +300% buff for her... it still not going to make me want to use her because again, she doesn't really fit in my style. Why would I use a super charged frame I never use then go back to the normal one after the buff runs out.

Then If I don't have it, I'll have to either buy it for plat which is.. eh.. okay, or I'd have to grind it up, then build it, then upgrade + forma it, make builds and what not, just for a couple of buffs for a week. 

I hate to say it: but that part of invigorations is just plain awful, no way to sugar coat it sadly.

 It should really only be limited to the already owned frames we collected with maybe a slot focusing on frames we rarely use, in my case Wisp is one of my least used ones. I'd for sure use her more for a week if she had a buff going. 

I do think Invigorations is a solid idea, fine tuning is for sure needed, but how it's going to be applied is for sure the wrong way. 

I hope I understood the intention of the system here! please correct me if not!

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Losing the XP from previously subsumed warframes is a bit of a drag, I likely won't bother getting the new skills unless activating invigorations give you XP too.

Invigorations are questionable too though, essentially the same rhetoric as Arbitrations. Does stats show that people are likely to use frames based on the buffs here? Feels like this system is more likely to just make the already good frames even more absurd, frames I don't use often have problem with how the skills work (or don't fit my playstyle) rather than just being undertuned.

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4 hours ago, (PSN)Po_Lod7 said:

Lol. A lot of these people who are complaining about invigorations can be boiled down to. 

"I'm used to this thing, I don't want to stop using this thing." 

As for the argument with arbitrations. That buff lasts a whole 1 mission. Why would anyone change a build for 1 mission and the mission are only endless types. A week long buff is a totally different mindset. 

For a week you can do something with that time it will change. Like People are so scared to change their precious meta it's so sad. 

Like wow gate keeping match making because of a lack of buffs is some next level cringe especially since plenty of abilities already have stat caps for their effectiveness. 

 

There are only a few frames that are meta and the reason is rarely because of the base stats, its because of the way the ability works with the game and the benefits they provide. Giving extra stats to a bad ability is not going to make it any more useful, it will still be a bad ability which can do a bit more damage. the other problem with this system is as De is calling it a way to make less used frames more useful, theyll most likely not rework many of those frames that badly need an overhaul. 

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14 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

Excuse me, what?

You mean to tell me all that work I did subsuming all those warframes for their abilities (A One (1) time deal, mind you) is now gone to waste in terms of XP?

So if I never interacted past rank 10, I would immediately be at an advantage vs people who have shoved every single warframe in the helminth system and actually using the system to it's full potential?!

I feel like it's disrespectful to our time invested to be at a disadvantage for participating in the system so deeply.

Either that invigoration system has to make up for the loss and more, or you need to compensate us for actually grinding out the warframes again and subsuming them. And, no, I'm not asking for instant rank 15, I'm asking to be recompensated for our efforts. If that is equal to getting Rank 15, so be it. If it's less, then so be it. But do something to not make it seem like we wasted our time using the helminth system only to be slapped in the face with this.

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4 hours ago, -MG-CephalonCinnamon said:

if rivens didnt use so much kuva, we'd have plenty of kuva. its a resource the same as every other resource. and no, there are some frames that are rly quite bad (bad doesnt mean unusable) and would really benefit from a rework. ive had hydroid mains call hydroid bad so its not just about a frame being good if there are people who like it.

Kuva is 99% used specifically for rivens. Regular resources are not. My two 30 day boosters just ended, yet I've used all the kuva I've gained that 30 days and not all the resources....

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3 minutes ago, Xalicra said:

Excuse me, what?

You mean to tell me all that work I did subsuming all those warframes for their abilities (A One (1) time deal, mind you) is now gone to waste in terms of XP?

So if I never interacted past rank 10, I would immediately be at an advantage vs people who have shoved every single warframe in the helminth system and actually using the system to it's full potential?!

I feel like it's disrespectful to our time invested to be at a disadvantage for participating in the system so deeply.

Either that invigoration system has to make up for the loss and more, or you need to compensate us for actually grinding out the warframes again and subsuming them. And, no, I'm not asking for instant rank 15, I'm asking to be recompensated for our efforts. If that is equal to getting Rank 15, so be it. If it's less, then so be it. But do something to not make it seem like we wasted our time using the helminth system only to be slapped in the face with this.

You have your resources. You should have enough if you're even at the point to be using this.

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What we want from Helminth: possibility to infuse an augment without wasting a mod slot. 

What DE heard: so you want random powercreep buffs on your warframe?

And the blatant "of course your Helminth will not rank up from 10 to 15" is just disrespectful towards early adopters who have now wasted all the experience obtained through subsuming warframes... But what else is new... 

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29 minutes ago, JotaX_97 said:

What we want from Helminth: possibility to infuse an augment without wasting a mod slot. 

What DE heard: so you want random powercreep buffs on your warframe?

And the blatant "of course your Helminth will not rank up from 10 to 15" is just disrespectful towards early adopters who have now wasted all the experience obtained through subsuming warframes... But what else is new... 

 

People will rank it up fully in a few days to a week.

This is an exaggeration just like everyone making a fuss they had to rank up and purchase the helminth when it was initially released. 

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16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Every week, your Helminth will have an Affinity toward 3 Random Warframes. You can interact with Helminth with these Warframes to gain select Weekly Buffs (one Offensive and one Utility/Defense)! For example:

 

Zephyr: 200% Power Strength and Immune To Status
Atlas: 200% Primary Critical Chance and +1000 Armor
Excalibur: 250% Melee Damage and 75% power Efficiency

So, I have a concern here.

On the one hand, the concept of buffing random Warframes to encourage a diverse playstyle is, alright, an interesting way to reward collectors. However, it's also what's already been done with Arbitrations.

My main concern is that giving such massive buffs to Warframes could lead to two main issues down the line:

  1. The effect this will have on Power Creep. Historically, a 200% Power Strength buff today means frame nerfs and new ability-resisting enemies tomorrow. This could then unintentionally penalize players without a wide collection of frames, or those who haven't unlocked the segment yet.
  2. Buffs with that much potency may slip right past "gentle encouragement" into actively dictating what frames players use, which they have little control over by design ("every 10th Invigoration lets you pick one of next week's" means you pick the frame literally once a month, and even then the effect is random). 
    "I'd consider playing my main for this Tactical Alert, but there's a Helminth buff for XYZ frame right now that would make my build for it god-tier."
    Combine this with the first point and we may reach a point where such strong buffs will be expected when balancing the challenges being heaped on players in the future ("Sorry y'all, can't bring Trinity cuz her Invig didn't pop this week").
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guys i appreciate working on the game, but please focus your resources on important stuff. but this random trash is not good. (same goes for parazon finisher gameplay. noone used before, noone will use after (except doing liches).)

status immunity hemlinth ability.. yeah spellbind exists. by the time u unlock helminth immunity, u should have tossed a titania in helminth, and spellbind gives cc. no point to use this new stuff.

16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

unscanned Kuria

this is a roundhouse kick in the balls for everyone who scanned them by hand. anyway you still have to get the right rooms, and being a helminth ability, it will not work on AW for submerged rooms :)

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It figures that an ability for finding kuria comes after I finally earned my statuette.  Ah, well.  Might pop it on a config for syndicate missions.

On a more serious note, I'm disappointed and worried by the Invigoration system.  I'd hoped that, if Helminth ever expanded into buffing Warframes, it'd be in some more progression based or fine-tuned customization way.  Infusing augments, secondary passives, changing armor/health/shield types, or infusing lesser used QOL mods that currently don't really fit into builds and giving them a second shot at life.  Random temporary buffs will probably do a better job as a resource sink for the absurdly well-stocked, but the cost to benefit ratio could really make or break the viability of this system for everyone else.  In a game where the Sibear and Hema cost what they do to craft, I'm wary of what the prices might be.

But my biggest worry is that a warframe might start to feel really, really bad in comparison once the boost runs out.  Imagine having a frame that has struggled to perform suddenly being exactly the way you always wished it could be... and then it goes back to under-performing again.  Only now it has the added sting of having experienced what it could be if given the chance.  Look at how people feel when something they enjoy gets nerfed.  That's the feeling that everyone who uses an Invigoration will have at the end of the week.  I mean, a week of playing a juiced frame is a long time.  If someone really plays that frame a lot then it's going to start to feel normal.  Ironically, going back to normal will feel like the change.  That's not a feeling I want to pay resources to experience.  Especially since I can't even keep spending resources to maintain the buff.  You can only wait for the roulette wheel, or pay for a lot of Invigorations you might not even want just to pick the one you do.

Maybe if Invigorations were mission-length consumables to buff whatever frame you're using with a randomly generated boost of the week?  That'd at least remove the frame specific buff/nerf cycle problem, and the the "having a week for it to become the new normal" problem.  There's probably tons of terrible problems with that idea.  I just can't see myself wanting to use the system as it's presented here.  Every purchase is guaranteed to end with disappointment by design.

It just doesn't seem fun.

Edited by UnderRevision
Typo.
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