Helminth Grows a New Appetite: 30.5 Update!

Recommended Posts

People expressed their distaste with a lot of things (bramma, helminth roar etc) but the decision is up to DE.

That certainly is true, it is ultimately up to DE whether or not they want to add it even with the feedback & responses that are given.

Share on other sites

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Well before I say anything else, I'll point out that my initial post was simply about the frames, not the frame-buff pairs. But anyway let's go.

Let's lay out the facts and assumptions:

• Fact: You will have one Offense buff type and 1 Utility/Defense buff type
•
• Assumption: There are only 3 buffs values in each buff type.
• Reasonable, we need some numbers to work with
• Assumption: Only one of each buff type exists.
•
• Source? The Workshop forum post and Workshop video make no indication that one of each buff type exists on a given week, only that you'll have one Offensive and one from the other two types. So you could very well end up with the second buff being from the Defensive type for each.

So looking at the permutations of buffs: I have 3 x 2 x 1 = 6 ways to arrange the first buff (Offensive buff) for a set of 3, assuming the same bonus can't appear twice (assumption on my part).
I have 6 different buffs for the second slot (3 in Defense, 3 in Utility, I can choose one from either). So I can arrange the second buff 6 x 5 x 4 = 120 different ways for a set of 3, assuming the same bonus can't appear twice, (assumption on my part again).
So that means I have 6 x 120 = 720 permutations of buffs for the 3 frames of the week.

I care about what unique sets of frames I see as I have accounted for the permutations of the buffs that can attached to the set of 3 frames.
For example:

Excalibur        Grendel         Baruuk
Offense - 1    Offense - 2   Offense - 3
Defense - 1   Defense - 2   Defense - 3

is the same as

Baruuk        Excalibur         Grendel
Offense - 3    Offense - 1   Offense - 2
Defense - 3   Defense - 1   Defense - 2

So I want the combinations of frames. nCr(47,3) = 16,215 combinations of frames, with each set of 3 frames having 720 buff permutations, for a total of 11,674,800 frame-buff pairs.

I don't see what warrants such hostility. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, don't need to be aggressive.

Amazing....you can cite why I said something as a fact, then question it.  Let me highlight why I said it was so.....because you apparently can't even keep an idea together for an explanation....let alone support your initial statement with simple examples.

I assume that there are 3 buffs in each type.  I stated it was an assumption.  You have to accept this, or deny it based on nothing.  Oh boy, DE releasing quarter baked info is special.  I'm going to assume you have the capability to agree with the premise of an assumption, though do say so if you aren't.  DE also cited an example where 3 buffs were listed....without indicating if they were linked.  Yeah.  This is a fundamental assumption...because if you don't make it then there's no math to do.  So yeah, assume 3 potential actual buff values, unlinked to one another, meaning each potential selection has 3 outcomes.

Now....the point where you seem to swallow the insanity pill.  DE states there are three buff types.  YOU LINKED TO THEIR POST.  They state that each of these types will be  covered.  I then assume that there are 3 types of buffs.

Now the Idiot Argument.  I refer to it as such because you already made it....but refuse it.  Why permutations over combinations.  Let's use B-E-G again, with a Harrow in the mix added because you seem to not understand the difference because 3*2*1= 3+2+1 (because this is the edge case where they are equal).  Let's then explain the potential outcomes.  Remember that DE has fixed the appearance of 3 types of buffs.  For an example, let's fix the arbitrary assignment of these buffs at a value of 1.  Our outcomes are:

BO1-ED1-GS1; BO1-GD1-ES1; BO1-HD1-GS1; BO1-GD1-HS1; BO1-HD1-ES1; BO1-ED1-HS1;

EO1-BD1-GS1; EO1-GD1-BS1; EO1-HD1-GS1; EO1-GD1-HS1; EO1-HD1-BS1; EO1-BD1-HS1;

GO1-ED1-BS1; GO1-BD1-ES1; GO1-HD1-BS1; GO1-BD1-HS1; GO1-HD1-ES1; GO1-ED1-HS1;

HO1-ED1-GS1; HO1-GD1-ES1; HO1-BD1-GS1; HO1-GD1-BS1; HO1-BD1-ES1; HO1-ED1-BS1

Do you see yet?  Let me explain one more time.  The are the potential outcomes assuming that you have a fixed bonus type and bonus value.  In practice pwarframe choice*1*1.  Note that I've highlighted all of the B-E-G permutations.  Note also that line to line you substitute only one frame for another.  That is to say, line 2 switches Ember and Baruuk.  Line three is line one, with Grendel and Baruuk switched.  Line four is Harrow and Baruuk switched.  Note also I added a fourth frame, but instead of increasing by 4 ((4+3+2+1)-(3+2+1)) we've actually added 18 (4*3*2*1-3*2*1 = 24-6 = 18) potential setups.

LET'S EXPLAIN PERMUTATIONS VERSUS COMBINATIONS THEN.

Do you get it?  I'm really asking at this point, because if we need to go further there are going to have to be pictures. I'd also like to retract my earlier removal of a *3 factor in the mix.  It is actually *3*3*3.  There are 3 values, with 3 level, that are independent.  Imagining this on a cube, our outcomes are in fact

1-1-1; 1-2-1; 1-1-2; 1-2-2; 1-2-3; 1-3-2; 1-3-3; 1-3-1; 1-1-3;

2-1-1; 2-2-1; 2-1-2; 2-2-2; 2-2-3; 2-3-2; 2-3-3; 2-3-1; 2-1-3;

1-1-1; 1-2-1; 1-1-2; 1-2-2; 1-2-3; 1-3-2; 1-3-3; 3-3-1; 3-1-3;

This is also a question of permutations....because 3-1-3 and 3-3-1 will not be the same in practice.  That's kind of how the whole fixed 3 types things works.

So, we're back to me being right on step one.  About 2 millions combinations.  This assumes that you have 3 buff types (as DE stated).  It assumes 3 buff levels for each type, because there is no information that contradicts and they're inept in providing enough data.  It assumes 46 warframes, because that is what we have now.  It doesn't assume a new frame will be added in...because unsurprisingly that is going to skew the combinations even higher.

Of course, you keep beating that ignorant drum.  I'm interested to see how far it gets you.  I'm also interested if you play the lottery.  Remember, the chances there are kind of fun.  With a pool of 70 numbers, your chances to pick each do not depend on order.  Your chance of choosing the 5 is thus (5/70)*(4/69)*(3/68)*(2/67)*(1/66) = 5!/(70*69*68*67*66).  That of course is a combination select, whereas if the order mattered like it will here, your chance would be 1/(70*69*68*67*66).

DID YOU CATCH THAT?  WHEN ORDER MATTERS, LIKE WITH A SELECTION OF BUFFS WHICH EACH HAVE TO EXIST, YOU USE A PERMUTATION CALCULATION????

Why, it's almost like I set about stating all of these assumptions when we started.  Why would I have done that?

Snark over.  I'm done.  You either get it, or need to go back to 6th grade.  I'm not sure which....and common core sucks lemons, so maybe it'd be a higher level at this point.

• 2
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

Amazing....you can cite why I said something as a fact, then question it.  Let me highlight why I said it was so.....because you apparently can't even keep an idea together for an explanation....let alone support your initial statement with simple examples.

I assume that there are 3 buffs in each type.  I stated it was an assumption.  You have to accept this, or deny it based on nothing.  Oh boy, DE releasing quarter baked info is special.  I'm going to assume you have the capability to agree with the premise of an assumption, though do say so if you aren't.  DE also cited an example where 3 buffs were listed....without indicating if they were linked.  Yeah.  This is a fundamental assumption...because if you don't make it then there's no math to do.  So yeah, assume 3 potential actual buff values, unlinked to one another, meaning each potential selection has 3 outcomes.

Now....the point where you seem to swallow the insanity pill.  DE states there are three buff types.  YOU LINKED TO THEIR POST.  They state that each of these types will be  covered.  I then assume that there are 3 types of buffs.

Now the Idiot Argument.  I refer to it as such because you already made it....but refuse it.  Why permutations over combinations.  Let's use B-E-G again, with a Harrow in the mix added because you seem to not understand the difference because 3*2*1= 3+2+1 (because this is the edge case where they are equal).  Let's then explain the potential outcomes.  Remember that DE has fixed the appearance of 3 types of buffs.  For an example, let's fix the arbitrary assignment of these buffs at a value of 1.  Our outcomes are:

BO1-ED1-GS1; BO1-GD1-ES1; BO1-HD1-GS1; BO1-GD1-HS1; BO1-HD1-ES1; BO1-ED1-HS1;

EO1-BD1-GS1; EO1-GD1-BS1; EO1-HD1-GS1; EO1-GD1-HS1; EO1-HD1-BS1; EO1-BD1-HS1;

GO1-ED1-BS1; GO1-BD1-ES1; GO1-HD1-BS1; GO1-BD1-HS1; GO1-HD1-ES1; GO1-ED1-HS1;

HO1-ED1-GS1; HO1-GD1-ES1; HO1-BD1-GS1; HO1-GD1-BS1; HO1-BD1-ES1; HO1-ED1-BS1

Do you see yet?  Let me explain one more time.  The are the potential outcomes assuming that you have a fixed bonus type and bonus value.  In practice pwarframe choice*1*1.  Note that I've highlighted all of the B-E-G permutations.  Note also that line to line you substitute only one frame for another.  That is to say, line 2 switches Ember and Baruuk.  Line three is line one, with Grendel and Baruuk switched.  Line four is Harrow and Baruuk switched.  Note also I added a fourth frame, but instead of increasing by 4 ((4+3+2+1)-(3+2+1)) we've actually added 18 (4*3*2*1-3*2*1 = 24-6 = 18) potential setups.

LET'S EXPLAIN PERMUTATIONS VERSUS COMBINATIONS THEN.

Do you get it?  I'm really asking at this point, because if we need to go further there are going to have to be pictures. I'd also like to retract my earlier removal of a *3 factor in the mix.  It is actually *3*3*3.  There are 3 values, with 3 level, that are independent.  Imagining this on a cube, our outcomes are in fact

1-1-1; 1-2-1; 1-1-2; 1-2-2; 1-2-3; 1-3-2; 1-3-3; 1-3-1; 1-1-3;

2-1-1; 2-2-1; 2-1-2; 2-2-2; 2-2-3; 2-3-2; 2-3-3; 2-3-1; 2-1-3;

1-1-1; 1-2-1; 1-1-2; 1-2-2; 1-2-3; 1-3-2; 1-3-3; 3-3-1; 3-1-3;

This is also a question of permutations....because 3-1-3 and 3-3-1 will not be the same in practice.  That's kind of how the whole fixed 3 types things works.

So, we're back to me being right on step one.  About 2 millions combinations.  This assumes that you have 3 buff types (as DE stated).  It assumes 3 buff levels for each type, because there is no information that contradicts and they're inept in providing enough data.  It assumes 46 warframes, because that is what we have now.  It doesn't assume a new frame will be added in...because unsurprisingly that is going to skew the combinations even higher.

Of course, you keep beating that ignorant drum.  I'm interested to see how far it gets you.  I'm also interested if you play the lottery.  Remember, the chances there are kind of fun.  With a pool of 70 numbers, your chances to pick each do not depend on order.  Your chance of choosing the 5 is thus (5/70)*(4/69)*(3/68)*(2/67)*(1/66) = 5!/(70*69*68*67*66).  That of course is a combination select, whereas if the order mattered like it will here, your chance would be 1/(70*69*68*67*66).

DID YOU CATCH THAT?  WHEN ORDER MATTERS, LIKE WITH A SELECTION OF BUFFS WHICH EACH HAVE TO EXIST, YOU USE A PERMUTATION CALCULATION????

Why, it's almost like I set about stating all of these assumptions when we started.  Why would I have done that?

Snark over.  I'm done.  You either get it, or need to go back to 6th grade.  I'm not sure which....and common core sucks lemons, so maybe it'd be a higher level at this point.

Hey, i failed math and lots of subjects in school, but even i understood this.

Urgh i hate numbers.

Share on other sites

How about we use resources to INVIGORATE the Warframe of our choice, but the buffs are still random weekly?

Or just make it cost more to buff a warframe outside the weekly roster

• 2
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 2021-06-18 at 2:26 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Please explain why early adopters are being screwed for no reason here. Even if you were not currently tracking frame subsumes in your data (you are), surely this would be an easy script to run regardless since every frame is worth the same xp to helminth, so you can figure out how much minimum xp any given player's helminth should have based on which frames they've subsumed. If this goes forward as is, that becomes xp we are permanently locked out of, whereas someone who, say, stopped subsuming after reaching level 10, can now jump to level 15 faster than someone who put in the effort to get every subsume ability after helminth's release.

Edited by Zedar451
• 6
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, (PSN)InstantPainX said:

Why are early adapters of the hemlith system being punished for completing the grind I've farmed all frames and subsumed them into my hemlith but I'm not going to see any of that XP what am I supposed to do spam infuse on one ability just to increase my hemlith's level I tried avoiding this by actually working towards using the hemlith system properly and now I'm getting punished for it. Also the parazon system missed the mark on a revamp no mater what percentage you put the threshold to if I'm using the right build I'm not going to see this ever be able to execute on it as the target is going to die before I get there this just feels lazy this system obviously doesn't work even though it would be great if it did why not just let the enemies do what the kuva thralls already do and just take a knee if they hit zero HP

So.....citation?

If we are to look at similar previous experiences, this was not the case.  As a example, the Necramechs.  I had 5 forma into Voidrig when DE dropped the update.  I kept my forma, and added a subsequent 8 levels.  That is to say the system tracked my accumulated affinity and awarded it to me upon the first login.  There's little reason to assume DE will not do the same, given the already large list of stuff they are "giving" to us based upon all the changes.

Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

So.....citation?

If we are to look at similar previous experiences, this was not the case.  As a example, the Necramechs.  I had 5 forma into Voidrig when DE dropped the update.  I kept my forma, and added a subsequent 8 levels.  That is to say the system tracked my accumulated affinity and awarded it to me upon the first login.  There's little reason to assume DE will not do the same, given the already large list of stuff they are "giving" to us based upon all the changes.

Citation being.. the post right from Reb whereby one of the 'FAQ's was "Will we get any credit past 10 on launch" to which the answer was "no, lol".

• 6
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

So.....citation?

If we are to look at similar previous experiences, this was not the case.  As a example, the Necramechs.  I had 5 forma into Voidrig when DE dropped the update.  I kept my forma, and added a subsequent 8 levels.  That is to say the system tracked my accumulated affinity and awarded it to me upon the first login.  There's little reason to assume DE will not do the same, given the already large list of stuff they are "giving" to us based upon all the changes.

Check the FAQ. Right now they're saying we won't be compensated with the xp we should have from subsuming frames.

• 1
Share on other sites

On 2021-06-18 at 3:26 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

3 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Citation being.. the post right from Reb whereby one of the 'FAQ's was "Will we get any credit past 10 on launch" to which the answer was "no, lol".

2 minutes ago, Zedar451 said:

Check the FAQ. Right now they're saying we won't be compensated with the xp we should have from subsuming frames.

You guys reading things, or assuming?

I ask because if you read the terminology is that there will be non automatic rank-up based upon new versus old level caps.  What it doesn't explicitly state is that it will remain at exactly what it currently is.  Note, based upon affinity earned in the system.

Again, Necramechs.  They did not suddenly get to level 40 if you barely got them to 30 once, it levelled up based upon eared affinity.  The exact language contained in this response.

Share on other sites

On 2021-06-18 at 2:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap.

Sort of blows but I can understand why. However given the current upgrades I don't see the point in worrying about it. Outside of 15 which looks semi useful depends on range...

Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

You guys reading things, or assuming?

I ask because if you read the terminology is that there will be non automatic rank-up based upon new versus old level caps.  What it doesn't explicitly state is that it will remain at exactly what it currently is.  Note, based upon affinity earned in the system.

Again, Necramechs.  They did not suddenly get to level 40 if you barely got them to 30 once, it levelled up based upon eared affinity.  The exact language contained in this response.

I don't know what to tell you, it's what the words say as written. No automatic rank ups means no automatic rank ups, and until otherwise stated/shown, that should include frame subsume xp currently beyond level 10 getting lost to the void. If that is not the case, then I'd think they'd clarify or at least not word it like this. I will absolutely be happy to be wrong about it in the end, but until then I can only go by the wording as-is.

Edited by Zedar451
• 4
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

You guys reading things, or assuming?

I ask because if you read the terminology is that there will be non automatic rank-up based upon new versus old level caps.  What it doesn't explicitly state is that it will remain at exactly what it currently is.  Note, based upon affinity earned in the system.

Again, Necramechs.  They did not suddenly get to level 40 if you barely got them to 30 once, it levelled up based upon eared affinity.  The exact language contained in this response.

Forma-extended rank caps are a completely different subject matter. "Affinity earned in the system" - i.e. subsumes and other actions done while at the current cap - are the ranks themselves.

It's more like saying "Necramechs, but it doesn't matter if you had invested 0 forma or 100 forma, you have to apply and grind out 5 more forma to unlock the +10 cap." Except that still doesn't quite cover it because of subsumes being finite and exhaustible prior to the new levels being available (one-time affinity going to waste).

If we get credit for existing affinity past maximum, that implicitly asserts automatic rank-ups are a possibility (should you have enough). Ergo, stating that there will be absolutely no automatic rank-ups is an assertion that there can be no retroactive accounting for Helminth usage 'affinity', and as such, we're getting shafted for subsuming what we didn't 'need' to.

• 5
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

You guys reading things, or assuming?

I ask because if you read the terminology is that there will be non automatic rank-up based upon new versus old level caps.  What it doesn't explicitly state is that it will remain at exactly what it currently is.  Note, based upon affinity earned in the system.

Again, Necramechs.  They did not suddenly get to level 40 if you barely got them to 30 once, it levelled up based upon eared affinity.  The exact language contained in this response.

But here's the problem... Subsuming a warframe gives affinity that is instantly put into the helminth system, and since something like this hasn't happened in Warframe before where a levelcap has increased while people stay at the same level, we have no clue what will happen, so the safest assumption to make is that any affinity earnt through Subsuming, Infusing and Feeding after reaching level 10 is gone forever, instead of being stored in the system and then given all at once when the new levels are added.

I'd say that the best example would be like using a fully leveled weapon, all the affinity it would normally get is instead just turned to 0 and not shown to us (or used) since it doesn't need it. The same would be the case for the Helminth System, any affinity earnt through subsuming at level 10 would just be reduced to 0 since it currently doesn't need that affinity.
Plus, no automatic level-ups implies that either affinity earnt at rank 10 is either not present or it caps at the top of level 10 and then each subsequent level until you push it above that boundary (which I hope is the case).

• 2
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
On 2021-06-18 at 5:56 PM, Zedar451 said:

Will we get retroactive helminth xp toward these Ranks? For those who have subsumed every frame and applied most abilities they want, there won't be a good way to rank up now otherwise.

Yes, this.

While I think getting an automatic upgrade to lvl 15 simply by already having subsumed every available warframe is wrong, it is also wrong if players NOT having subsumed every warframe in the game gets a better possibility of achieving the new ranks.

One way of keeping this fair is by setting the Helminth "almost rank 11" amount to having all current warframes subsumed. Anyone having already subsumed them all starts there, anyone starting out with the Helminth will have to subsume them all to get there.

Another is to allow everyone to subsume multiple copies of the same warframe (with diminishing returns for every new copy of the same warframe). This way everyone can build and subsume the standard warframes (again) to rank up.

A third is getting to the ranks above the 10th only by using the new systems.

None of these solutions is perfect, but punishing those players that have already made a (rather huge) effort with their Helminth is surely NOT the way to go...

Edited by Graavarg
typo
• 2
Share on other sites

On 2021-06-18 at 3:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap.

This is incredibly unfair and forces me to interact with the system in an extremely unfun way. What am I supposed to do, grind the infusion menu over and over, infusing and removing abilities for no reason other than to farm the measly amounts of XP it gives? The good way to gain helminth XP is to subsume frames, but I've already subsumed all of them, I literally can't do that again. Withholding that XP is nothing short of toxic.

• 5
Share on other sites

I have already subsumed all the warframes...now I have to grind up the helminth rep to max again? WHY? I have mastered helminth why will I have to master him again? This feels like hitting MR30 then having the xp changed so I am no longer MR 30....

• 2
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, (XBOX)KawaiiAsa said:

But here's the problem... Subsuming a warframe gives affinity that is instantly put into the helminth system, and since something like this hasn't happened in Warframe before where a levelcap has increased while people stay at the same level, we have no clue what will happen, so the safest assumption to make is that any affinity earnt through Subsuming, Infusing and Feeding after reaching level 10 is gone forever, instead of being stored in the system and then given all at once when the new levels are added.

I'd say that the best example would be like using a fully leveled weapon, all the affinity it would normally get is instead just turned to 0 and not shown to us (or used) since it doesn't need it. The same would be the case for the Helminth System, any affinity earnt through subsuming at level 10 would just be reduced to 0 since it currently doesn't need that affinity.
Plus, no automatic level-ups implies that either affinity earnt at rank 10 is either not present or it caps at the top of level 10 and then each subsequent level until you push it above that boundary (which I hope is the case).

Except that's wrong.

Necrammechs.  Does anybody read?  Level capped at 30.  Affinity is loosely tracked by the amount of kills and such.  When it became another "add forma, get 2 more levels to grind" DE promised the same.  It wasn't that you'd suddenly be bumped from 30 to 40.

It's like nobody has any memory here.  Next we're going to forget that there was a time when guns were better than melee.  Yeah....before those scaling mods.  Which instead of addressing DE is nerfing, and adding an unlockable arcane slot for a semi-scaling mod on guns.  You'll now have to buy a blue print (or get a drop), get the resources, build, apply a catalyst, level and burn through forma, earn, build, and install a pexilus mod, with the final trio of steps now being earn, build, and install an arcane slot.

But no, let's argue that despite DE not saying that affinity earned is in limbo, and despite the EXACT SAME SITUATION happening with Necramechs, this is where we should collectively lose our minds.

• 1
Share on other sites

On 2021-06-18 at 3:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap.

This absolutely blows my mind. You do realize that you are punishing players for using Helminth System and rewarding players for not using it, right?

I don't know... mailbox players a unique Helminth treat to feed. It will give 1600xp points - number of treats depends on number of subsumed Warframes after Rank 10.

• 7
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Except that's wrong.

Necrammechs.  Does anybody read?  Level capped at 30.  Affinity is loosely tracked by the amount of kills and such.  When it became another "add forma, get 2 more levels to grind" DE promised the same.  It wasn't that you'd suddenly be bumped from 30 to 40.

It's like nobody has any memory here.  Next we're going to forget that there was a time when guns were better than melee.  Yeah....before those scaling mods.  Which instead of addressing DE is nerfing, and adding an unlockable arcane slot for a semi-scaling mod on guns.  You'll now have to buy a blue print (or get a drop), get the resources, build, apply a catalyst, level and burn through forma, earn, build, and install a pexilus mod, with the final trio of steps now being earn, build, and install an arcane slot.

But no, let's argue that despite DE not saying that affinity earned is in limbo, and despite the EXACT SAME SITUATION happening with Necramechs, this is where we should collectively lose our minds.

No, I know thats what happened with Necramechs.
However, because 'no automatic leveling' implies that earnt affinity at level 10 is gone because otherwise you could potentially cross the boundary to enter level 11 if affinity was stored, and thus automatically level which goes completely against the answer to the FAQ.

Edited by (XBOX)KawaiiAsa
I was an idiot
• 2
Share on other sites

I am cool with most of the stuff, but it realy annoyes me that i dont get the exp for the subsumed warframes i put time and effort in. And someone who didnt do it gets the exp when he does it.... i understand that every applied ability isn`t tracked, but the warframes?

• 4
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Sebith said:

This absolutely blows my mind. You do realize that you are punishing players for using Helminth System and rewarding players for not using it, right?

I don't know... mailbox players a unique Helminth treat to feed. It will give 1600xp points - number of treats depends on number of subsumed Warframes after Rank 10.

Yeah... I think this is what everyone is hoping for... especially after they introduce this update well after nearly all veteran and a majority of casual players will have a 100% Helminth by now, you'd essentially be punishing the majority of the players for using the system in the way that was intended and how they were told to use it.

• 2
Share on other sites

On 2021-06-18 at 3:26 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap.

Feels bad man. Can you guys *stop* with constantly invalidating/trivializing things that your early adopters beta-test for you?

Players who are at rank 10 will now want/need to procrastinate doing any Subsumes/Infusions until this releases, or else their time playing your game feels *wasted and devalued*. Players that already subsumed every frame, and/or performed every infusion they think they want to try, will see all of their effort *wasted and devalued*.

Also, I'm throwing in my +1 to all of the other comments saying "please keep the turbo-charged-Warframes in Arbitrations, don't have ludicrous overkill over-spill into the rest of the game", please consider having these buffs be somewhere else.

I know you guys are following that playbook that says "players are good at identifying problems, not providing solutions" nowadays, but here's just *one* alternative option. Give the Helminth a "Find Maroo's Treasure" or "Clem's Mission" equivalent. Perhaps these missions drop resources for the Helminth to feed on, refilling secretions faster than we can separately manually try to grind for the resources, so that we can have a gameplay loop dedicating to engaging with the Helminth System. It'd be nice to give us back a smidge of what was originally promised with the system, that there wouldn't even *be* infusion costs, that we'd just unlock the abilities and then we could experiment to our heart's content. If the missions were replayable over and over again, or if you could do it endlessly, and experiment mid-mission by doing new infusions for free or at drastically reduced prices, it'd be a neat way of having a very *active-engagement* loop for Helminth experimentation.

Take the whole idea, or cherry-pick bits and pieces, but it seems nigh-unanimous that the community actually *doesn't* want to see, say, 500% Power Strength/Range Saryns or Equinoxes or Octavias (etc) nuking entire rooms across the entire starchart, during events, so I really think making an isolated "Sandbox" for experimentation/engagement with Helminth has merit.

• 3
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Zedar451 said:

I don't know what to tell you, it's what the words say as written. No automatic rank ups means no automatic rank ups, and until otherwise stated/shown, that should include frame subsume xp currently beyond level 10 getting lost to the void. If that is not the case, then I'd think they'd clarify or at least not word it like this. I will absolutely be happy to be wrong about it in the end, but until then I can only go by the wording as-is.

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Forma-extended rank caps are a completely different subject matter. "Affinity earned in the system" - i.e. subsumes and other actions done while at the current cap - are the ranks themselves.

It's more like saying "Necramechs, but it doesn't matter if you had invested 0 forma or 100 forma, you have to apply and grind out 5 more forma to unlock the +10 cap." Except that still doesn't quite cover it because of subsumes being finite and exhaustible prior to the new levels being available (one-time affinity going to waste).

If we get credit for existing affinity past maximum, that implicitly asserts automatic rank-ups are a possibility (should you have enough). Ergo, stating that there will be absolutely no automatic rank-ups is an assertion that there can be no retroactive accounting for Helminth usage 'affinity', and as such, we're getting shafted for subsuming what we didn't 'need' to.

OK....time to stop.

Terminology folks.  Let's pay attention for just a moment, then understand whether a freak out should happen.

An automatic level-up would be that I earned maximum rank, so when new ranks are available I get them regardless of anything else.  If we use the Necramech, it'd be an "I'm level 30 today so when the update hits I'll automatically be level 40, right?"

THIS IS WHAT DE IS SAYING WILL NOT HAPPEN.

So what are they saying will happen?  Well, you'll rank up based upon earned affinity.  Affinity can be earned by subsuming, applying abilities, or feeding.  This is literally repeating how the system currently works.

So, what has DE stated?  Well....nothing explicitly.  You don't just get 5 free ranks.  IF THEY REPEAT WHAT THEY DID WITH NECRAMECHS, YOUR ACCUMULATED XP WILL THEN BE USED TO RANK YOU UP.

I ASKED FOR CITATION THAT THIS WAS GOING TO BE DISREGARDED....WHICH HAS NOT BEEN PROVIDED.  WHEN MECHS GOT EXTRA LEVELS THEIR ACCUMULATED XP WAS USED TO CALCULATE THEIR NEW LEVEL.

Please note the bold sections.  DE said you will rank up only from accumulated XP.  The XP is received from what you do....which is a no-duh.  They have not stated that you will not gain levels upon implementation due to accumulated XP, only that there is no automatic free 5 level gain.  Please, read.  It's not a subtle sentence, and the freak out here is coming from literally nothing.  Pay attention to the word "automatic," and note the lack of "earned."

• 1
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Except that's wrong.

Necrammechs.  Does anybody read?  Level capped at 30.  Affinity is loosely tracked by the amount of kills and such.  When it became another "add forma, get 2 more levels to grind" DE promised the same.  It wasn't that you'd suddenly be bumped from 30 to 40.

But no, let's argue that despite DE not saying that affinity earned is in limbo, and despite the EXACT SAME SITUATION happening with Necramechs, this is where we should collectively lose our minds.

Do you not read? NO automatic rankups means NO affinity tracking means NO credit for exhausting the finite resource of Subsuming.

Necramechs have nothing to do with it. That's a completely different system that gatekept caps in a different way and - as far as I recall - if you had in fact used the Mech enough and had Forma already invested, you logged on with automatic cap extension and fill because affinity is tracked and item rank is a mathematical derivation of total affinity, it's not (example figures) '0-1000, 0-2000' etc. resetting to a floor when you go over, but 0-1000-3000-onwards building a continuous total.

But the explicit statement says that isn't happening here, so it's more like Syndicate reputation at cap being flatly curbed to nothing.

That's what Helminth is. A syndicate we're being cheated out of.

• 4
Share on other sites

En 18/6/2021 a las 9:56, [DE]Rebecca dijo:

Helminth Workshop FAQ:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap.

Thank you for punishing us for playing the game.

• 6