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Helminth Grows a New Appetite: 30.5 Update!


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On 2021-06-18 at 2:26 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

Please explain why early adopters are being screwed for no reason here. Even if you were not currently tracking frame subsumes in your data (you are), surely this would be an easy script to run regardless since every frame is worth the same xp to helminth, so you can figure out how much minimum xp any given player's helminth should have based on which frames they've subsumed. If this goes forward as is, that becomes xp we are permanently locked out of, whereas someone who, say, stopped subsuming after reaching level 10, can now jump to level 15 faster than someone who put in the effort to get every subsume ability after helminth's release.

Edited by Zedar451
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2 hours ago, (PSN)InstantPainX said:

Why are early adapters of the hemlith system being punished for completing the grind I've farmed all frames and subsumed them into my hemlith but I'm not going to see any of that XP what am I supposed to do spam infuse on one ability just to increase my hemlith's level I tried avoiding this by actually working towards using the hemlith system properly and now I'm getting punished for it. Also the parazon system missed the mark on a revamp no mater what percentage you put the threshold to if I'm using the right build I'm not going to see this ever be able to execute on it as the target is going to die before I get there this just feels lazy this system obviously doesn't work even though it would be great if it did why not just let the enemies do what the kuva thralls already do and just take a knee if they hit zero HP

 

So.....citation?

 

If we are to look at similar previous experiences, this was not the case.  As a example, the Necramechs.  I had 5 forma into Voidrig when DE dropped the update.  I kept my forma, and added a subsequent 8 levels.  That is to say the system tracked my accumulated affinity and awarded it to me upon the first login.  There's little reason to assume DE will not do the same, given the already large list of stuff they are "giving" to us based upon all the changes.

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2 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

So.....citation?

 

If we are to look at similar previous experiences, this was not the case.  As a example, the Necramechs.  I had 5 forma into Voidrig when DE dropped the update.  I kept my forma, and added a subsequent 8 levels.  That is to say the system tracked my accumulated affinity and awarded it to me upon the first login.  There's little reason to assume DE will not do the same, given the already large list of stuff they are "giving" to us based upon all the changes.

Citation being.. the post right from Reb whereby one of the 'FAQ's was "Will we get any credit past 10 on launch" to which the answer was "no, lol".

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4 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

So.....citation?

 

If we are to look at similar previous experiences, this was not the case.  As a example, the Necramechs.  I had 5 forma into Voidrig when DE dropped the update.  I kept my forma, and added a subsequent 8 levels.  That is to say the system tracked my accumulated affinity and awarded it to me upon the first login.  There's little reason to assume DE will not do the same, given the already large list of stuff they are "giving" to us based upon all the changes.

Check the FAQ. Right now they're saying we won't be compensated with the xp we should have from subsuming frames.

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On 2021-06-18 at 3:26 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

 

3 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Citation being.. the post right from Reb whereby one of the 'FAQ's was "Will we get any credit past 10 on launch" to which the answer was "no, lol".

 

2 minutes ago, Zedar451 said:

Check the FAQ. Right now they're saying we won't be compensated with the xp we should have from subsuming frames.

 

You guys reading things, or assuming?

 

I ask because if you read the terminology is that there will be non automatic rank-up based upon new versus old level caps.  What it doesn't explicitly state is that it will remain at exactly what it currently is.  Note, based upon affinity earned in the system.

 

Again, Necramechs.  They did not suddenly get to level 40 if you barely got them to 30 once, it levelled up based upon eared affinity.  The exact language contained in this response.

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On 2021-06-18 at 2:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

Sort of blows but I can understand why. However given the current upgrades I don't see the point in worrying about it. Outside of 15 which looks semi useful depends on range...

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26 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

 

 

You guys reading things, or assuming?

 

I ask because if you read the terminology is that there will be non automatic rank-up based upon new versus old level caps.  What it doesn't explicitly state is that it will remain at exactly what it currently is.  Note, based upon affinity earned in the system.

 

Again, Necramechs.  They did not suddenly get to level 40 if you barely got them to 30 once, it levelled up based upon eared affinity.  The exact language contained in this response.

I don't know what to tell you, it's what the words say as written. No automatic rank ups means no automatic rank ups, and until otherwise stated/shown, that should include frame subsume xp currently beyond level 10 getting lost to the void. If that is not the case, then I'd think they'd clarify or at least not word it like this. I will absolutely be happy to be wrong about it in the end, but until then I can only go by the wording as-is.

Edited by Zedar451
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2 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

You guys reading things, or assuming?

I ask because if you read the terminology is that there will be non automatic rank-up based upon new versus old level caps.  What it doesn't explicitly state is that it will remain at exactly what it currently is.  Note, based upon affinity earned in the system.

Again, Necramechs.  They did not suddenly get to level 40 if you barely got them to 30 once, it levelled up based upon eared affinity.  The exact language contained in this response.

Forma-extended rank caps are a completely different subject matter. "Affinity earned in the system" - i.e. subsumes and other actions done while at the current cap - are the ranks themselves.

It's more like saying "Necramechs, but it doesn't matter if you had invested 0 forma or 100 forma, you have to apply and grind out 5 more forma to unlock the +10 cap." Except that still doesn't quite cover it because of subsumes being finite and exhaustible prior to the new levels being available (one-time affinity going to waste).

 

If we get credit for existing affinity past maximum, that implicitly asserts automatic rank-ups are a possibility (should you have enough). Ergo, stating that there will be absolutely no automatic rank-ups is an assertion that there can be no retroactive accounting for Helminth usage 'affinity', and as such, we're getting shafted for subsuming what we didn't 'need' to.

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6 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

You guys reading things, or assuming?

I ask because if you read the terminology is that there will be non automatic rank-up based upon new versus old level caps.  What it doesn't explicitly state is that it will remain at exactly what it currently is.  Note, based upon affinity earned in the system.

Again, Necramechs.  They did not suddenly get to level 40 if you barely got them to 30 once, it levelled up based upon eared affinity.  The exact language contained in this response.

But here's the problem... Subsuming a warframe gives affinity that is instantly put into the helminth system, and since something like this hasn't happened in Warframe before where a levelcap has increased while people stay at the same level, we have no clue what will happen, so the safest assumption to make is that any affinity earnt through Subsuming, Infusing and Feeding after reaching level 10 is gone forever, instead of being stored in the system and then given all at once when the new levels are added.

I'd say that the best example would be like using a fully leveled weapon, all the affinity it would normally get is instead just turned to 0 and not shown to us (or used) since it doesn't need it. The same would be the case for the Helminth System, any affinity earnt through subsuming at level 10 would just be reduced to 0 since it currently doesn't need that affinity.
Plus, no automatic level-ups implies that either affinity earnt at rank 10 is either not present or it caps at the top of level 10 and then each subsequent level until you push it above that boundary (which I hope is the case).

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On 2021-06-18 at 5:56 PM, Zedar451 said:

Will we get retroactive helminth xp toward these Ranks? For those who have subsumed every frame and applied most abilities they want, there won't be a good way to rank up now otherwise.

Yes, this.

While I think getting an automatic upgrade to lvl 15 simply by already having subsumed every available warframe is wrong, it is also wrong if players NOT having subsumed every warframe in the game gets a better possibility of achieving the new ranks.

One way of keeping this fair is by setting the Helminth "almost rank 11" amount to having all current warframes subsumed. Anyone having already subsumed them all starts there, anyone starting out with the Helminth will have to subsume them all to get there.

Another is to allow everyone to subsume multiple copies of the same warframe (with diminishing returns for every new copy of the same warframe). This way everyone can build and subsume the standard warframes (again) to rank up.

A third is getting to the ranks above the 10th only by using the new systems. 

None of these solutions is perfect, but punishing those players that have already made a (rather huge) effort with their Helminth is surely NOT the way to go...

Edited by Graavarg
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On 2021-06-18 at 3:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

This is incredibly unfair and forces me to interact with the system in an extremely unfun way. What am I supposed to do, grind the infusion menu over and over, infusing and removing abilities for no reason other than to farm the measly amounts of XP it gives? The good way to gain helminth XP is to subsume frames, but I've already subsumed all of them, I literally can't do that again. Withholding that XP is nothing short of toxic.

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I have already subsumed all the warframes...now I have to grind up the helminth rep to max again? WHY? I have mastered helminth why will I have to master him again? This feels like hitting MR30 then having the xp changed so I am no longer MR 30....

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)KawaiiAsa said:

But here's the problem... Subsuming a warframe gives affinity that is instantly put into the helminth system, and since something like this hasn't happened in Warframe before where a levelcap has increased while people stay at the same level, we have no clue what will happen, so the safest assumption to make is that any affinity earnt through Subsuming, Infusing and Feeding after reaching level 10 is gone forever, instead of being stored in the system and then given all at once when the new levels are added.

I'd say that the best example would be like using a fully leveled weapon, all the affinity it would normally get is instead just turned to 0 and not shown to us (or used) since it doesn't need it. The same would be the case for the Helminth System, any affinity earnt through subsuming at level 10 would just be reduced to 0 since it currently doesn't need that affinity.
Plus, no automatic level-ups implies that either affinity earnt at rank 10 is either not present or it caps at the top of level 10 and then each subsequent level until you push it above that boundary (which I hope is the case).

 

Except that's wrong.

 

Necrammechs.  Does anybody read?  Level capped at 30.  Affinity is loosely tracked by the amount of kills and such.  When it became another "add forma, get 2 more levels to grind" DE promised the same.  It wasn't that you'd suddenly be bumped from 30 to 40.

 

It's like nobody has any memory here.  Next we're going to forget that there was a time when guns were better than melee.  Yeah....before those scaling mods.  Which instead of addressing DE is nerfing, and adding an unlockable arcane slot for a semi-scaling mod on guns.  You'll now have to buy a blue print (or get a drop), get the resources, build, apply a catalyst, level and burn through forma, earn, build, and install a pexilus mod, with the final trio of steps now being earn, build, and install an arcane slot.

But no, let's argue that despite DE not saying that affinity earned is in limbo, and despite the EXACT SAME SITUATION happening with Necramechs, this is where we should collectively lose our minds.

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On 2021-06-18 at 3:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

This absolutely blows my mind. You do realize that you are punishing players for using Helminth System and rewarding players for not using it, right?

I don't know... mailbox players a unique Helminth treat to feed. It will give 1600xp points - number of treats depends on number of subsumed Warframes after Rank 10.

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18 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

Except that's wrong.

 

Necrammechs.  Does anybody read?  Level capped at 30.  Affinity is loosely tracked by the amount of kills and such.  When it became another "add forma, get 2 more levels to grind" DE promised the same.  It wasn't that you'd suddenly be bumped from 30 to 40.

 

It's like nobody has any memory here.  Next we're going to forget that there was a time when guns were better than melee.  Yeah....before those scaling mods.  Which instead of addressing DE is nerfing, and adding an unlockable arcane slot for a semi-scaling mod on guns.  You'll now have to buy a blue print (or get a drop), get the resources, build, apply a catalyst, level and burn through forma, earn, build, and install a pexilus mod, with the final trio of steps now being earn, build, and install an arcane slot.

But no, let's argue that despite DE not saying that affinity earned is in limbo, and despite the EXACT SAME SITUATION happening with Necramechs, this is where we should collectively lose our minds.

No, I know thats what happened with Necramechs.
However, because 'no automatic leveling' implies that earnt affinity at level 10 is gone because otherwise you could potentially cross the boundary to enter level 11 if affinity was stored, and thus automatically level which goes completely against the answer to the FAQ.

Edited by (XBOX)KawaiiAsa
I was an idiot
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I am cool with most of the stuff, but it realy annoyes me that i dont get the exp for the subsumed warframes i put time and effort in. And someone who didnt do it gets the exp when he does it.... i understand that every applied ability isn`t tracked, but the warframes?

 

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4 minutes ago, Sebith said:

This absolutely blows my mind. You do realize that you are punishing players for using Helminth System and rewarding players for not using it, right?

I don't know... mailbox players a unique Helminth treat to feed. It will give 1600xp points - number of treats depends on number of subsumed Warframes after Rank 10.

Yeah... I think this is what everyone is hoping for... especially after they introduce this update well after nearly all veteran and a majority of casual players will have a 100% Helminth by now, you'd essentially be punishing the majority of the players for using the system in the way that was intended and how they were told to use it.

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On 2021-06-18 at 3:26 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

Feels bad man. Can you guys *stop* with constantly invalidating/trivializing things that your early adopters beta-test for you?

Players who are at rank 10 will now want/need to procrastinate doing any Subsumes/Infusions until this releases, or else their time playing your game feels *wasted and devalued*. Players that already subsumed every frame, and/or performed every infusion they think they want to try, will see all of their effort *wasted and devalued*.

Also, I'm throwing in my +1 to all of the other comments saying "please keep the turbo-charged-Warframes in Arbitrations, don't have ludicrous overkill over-spill into the rest of the game", please consider having these buffs be somewhere else.

I know you guys are following that playbook that says "players are good at identifying problems, not providing solutions" nowadays, but here's just *one* alternative option. Give the Helminth a "Find Maroo's Treasure" or "Clem's Mission" equivalent. Perhaps these missions drop resources for the Helminth to feed on, refilling secretions faster than we can separately manually try to grind for the resources, so that we can have a gameplay loop dedicating to engaging with the Helminth System. It'd be nice to give us back a smidge of what was originally promised with the system, that there wouldn't even *be* infusion costs, that we'd just unlock the abilities and then we could experiment to our heart's content. If the missions were replayable over and over again, or if you could do it endlessly, and experiment mid-mission by doing new infusions for free or at drastically reduced prices, it'd be a neat way of having a very *active-engagement* loop for Helminth experimentation.

Take the whole idea, or cherry-pick bits and pieces, but it seems nigh-unanimous that the community actually *doesn't* want to see, say, 500% Power Strength/Range Saryns or Equinoxes or Octavias (etc) nuking entire rooms across the entire starchart, during events, so I really think making an isolated "Sandbox" for experimentation/engagement with Helminth has merit.

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2 hours ago, Zedar451 said:

I don't know what to tell you, it's what the words say as written. No automatic rank ups means no automatic rank ups, and until otherwise stated/shown, that should include frame subsume xp currently beyond level 10 getting lost to the void. If that is not the case, then I'd think they'd clarify or at least not word it like this. I will absolutely be happy to be wrong about it in the end, but until then I can only go by the wording as-is.

 

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Forma-extended rank caps are a completely different subject matter. "Affinity earned in the system" - i.e. subsumes and other actions done while at the current cap - are the ranks themselves.

It's more like saying "Necramechs, but it doesn't matter if you had invested 0 forma or 100 forma, you have to apply and grind out 5 more forma to unlock the +10 cap." Except that still doesn't quite cover it because of subsumes being finite and exhaustible prior to the new levels being available (one-time affinity going to waste).

 

If we get credit for existing affinity past maximum, that implicitly asserts automatic rank-ups are a possibility (should you have enough). Ergo, stating that there will be absolutely no automatic rank-ups is an assertion that there can be no retroactive accounting for Helminth usage 'affinity', and as such, we're getting shafted for subsuming what we didn't 'need' to.

OK....time to stop.

 

Terminology folks.  Let's pay attention for just a moment, then understand whether a freak out should happen.

 

An automatic level-up would be that I earned maximum rank, so when new ranks are available I get them regardless of anything else.  If we use the Necramech, it'd be an "I'm level 30 today so when the update hits I'll automatically be level 40, right?"

 

THIS IS WHAT DE IS SAYING WILL NOT HAPPEN.

 

So what are they saying will happen?  Well, you'll rank up based upon earned affinity.  Affinity can be earned by subsuming, applying abilities, or feeding.  This is literally repeating how the system currently works.

So, what has DE stated?  Well....nothing explicitly.  You don't just get 5 free ranks.  IF THEY REPEAT WHAT THEY DID WITH NECRAMECHS, YOUR ACCUMULATED XP WILL THEN BE USED TO RANK YOU UP.  

 

I ASKED FOR CITATION THAT THIS WAS GOING TO BE DISREGARDED....WHICH HAS NOT BEEN PROVIDED.  WHEN MECHS GOT EXTRA LEVELS THEIR ACCUMULATED XP WAS USED TO CALCULATE THEIR NEW LEVEL.

 

Please note the bold sections.  DE said you will rank up only from accumulated XP.  The XP is received from what you do....which is a no-duh.  They have not stated that you will not gain levels upon implementation due to accumulated XP, only that there is no automatic free 5 level gain.  Please, read.  It's not a subtle sentence, and the freak out here is coming from literally nothing.  Pay attention to the word "automatic," and note the lack of "earned."

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2 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Except that's wrong.

 

Necrammechs.  Does anybody read?  Level capped at 30.  Affinity is loosely tracked by the amount of kills and such.  When it became another "add forma, get 2 more levels to grind" DE promised the same.  It wasn't that you'd suddenly be bumped from 30 to 40.

 

But no, let's argue that despite DE not saying that affinity earned is in limbo, and despite the EXACT SAME SITUATION happening with Necramechs, this is where we should collectively lose our minds.

Do you not read? NO automatic rankups means NO affinity tracking means NO credit for exhausting the finite resource of Subsuming.

Necramechs have nothing to do with it. That's a completely different system that gatekept caps in a different way and - as far as I recall - if you had in fact used the Mech enough and had Forma already invested, you logged on with automatic cap extension and fill because affinity is tracked and item rank is a mathematical derivation of total affinity, it's not (example figures) '0-1000, 0-2000' etc. resetting to a floor when you go over, but 0-1000-3000-onwards building a continuous total.

But the explicit statement says that isn't happening here, so it's more like Syndicate reputation at cap being flatly curbed to nothing.

That's what Helminth is. A syndicate we're being cheated out of.

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En 18/6/2021 a las 9:56, [DE]Rebecca dijo:

Helminth Workshop FAQ: 

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

Thank you for punishing us for playing the game.

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On 2021-06-18 at 3:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

[...]

A somewhat in-depth explanation on why all of this will see little to no usage:

Parasitic Armor: You never use both shields and armor together, so this makes no sense period. Hideous Resistence: Primed Sure Footed is an Exilus mod, you want more from an ability. Voracious Metastasis: We can already heal for free, or with Gloom. Supporting is of very little concern. Sickening Pulse: Extremely niche, doesn't work (?) on slash, expected to be underpowered on purpose. Golden Instinct: People won't bother to get rank 15 just for this, since everything else is useless, and since they already subsumed all the abilities they care for (which will not grant XP retroactively).

Invigorations are godmode on a random Warframe. The idea of sometimes having godmode on for a week does not appeal to me at all, nor does the thought of playing Warframes that have 3 useless abilities, and accumulated thousands of threads begging you to rework them/fix their bugs over the years. Why do you want people to play Warframes that obviously nobody enjoys (as is indicated by low usage)? Why make your game worse just to even out the usage statistics?

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On 2021-06-18 at 3:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

To give players some control over what will be very powerful buffs, the Helminth takes note of your interactions - for every 10 Invigorations you do, you’ll be able to Select what Warframe receives the next buff! 

 

You know.... If we ha Stuff like this more often then we can finally Alleviate the Curse RNG has plagued us with for so long 👍 !! 

25 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Golden Instinct: People won't bother to get rank 15 just for this, since everything else is useless, and since they already subsumed all the abilities they care for (which will not grant XP retroactively).

Oh I'm pretty sure a decent chunk will.... Especially if DE Rig's Nightwave Acts to make people consider using this Ability 😈.... You know... Like they did with Railjack 😱 !!!

 

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I don't want invigorations. But I know you're gonna cripple something in the game to make me use it. I've had a lot of faith in your DE but you put this in its going to wound it. This is my stance.

I see other people liking it or want to reworked it but i don't want an RNG system. We have enough of that garbage in MMO's like wow. I'm tired of systems trying to fix problems. If you don't wanna fix the problem head on don't make a trash system to try and fix it.

Just cause the content locusts consume and demand more doesn't mean you need to keep creating all these stupid grinds to fix what you assume is a problem. You're always going to have problems with things. Some made worse with crap band-aids.

I'm honestly getting tired of the constant overhauls and changes at times that make me feel like my investments in the content is going to be pointless. I know I'm overthinking it but with system after system, overhaul after overhaul can I really trust my time is going to be valued?

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