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Helminth Grows a New Appetite: 30.5 Update!


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On 2021-06-18 at 8:56 AM, Zedar451 said:

Will we get retroactive helminth xp toward these Ranks? For those who have subsumed every frame and applied most abilities they want, there won't be a good way to rank up now otherwise.

This absolutely needs to happen. We were never told that the helminth system would get more ranks. I have subsumed every warframe and I would like to have the XP that was not counted as going towards the new ranks. I shouldn't be penalized for subsuming warframes before the new ranks came into the game.  

I hope this gets addressed. 

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52 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

I assume that there are 3 buffs in each type.  I stated it was an assumption.  You have to accept this, or deny it based on nothing.  Oh boy, DE releasing quarter baked info is special.  I'm going to assume you have the capability to agree with the premise of an assumption, though do say so if you aren't.  DE also cited an example where 3 buffs were listed....without indicating if they were linked.  Yeah.  This is a fundamental assumption...because if you don't make it then there's no math to do.  So yeah, assume 3 potential actual buff values, unlinked to one another, meaning each potential selection has 3 outcomes. 

The basis of approaching an issue is to communicate what you have to work with and the assumptions being made. That was the purpose of listing the facts/assumptions.

3 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Assumption: There are only 3 buffs values in each buff type.

  • Reasonable, we need some numbers to work with

I said that each buff type having three different values was a fair assumption.

56 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Now....the point where you seem to swallow the insanity pill.  DE states there are three buff types.  YOU LINKED TO THEIR POST.  They state that each of these types will be  covered.  I then assume that there are 3 types of buffs.

And I've said that that there are 3 buff types, as DE states as much in the post.
However, they don't state that all 3 buff types will be covered (I welcome a quote stating otherwise from the Workshop), only that each frame will have an offensive type buff and then one chosen from defensive/utility. Effectively this means you have (under our assumption that each buff type has three potential values) that our first buff (the offensive one) pulls from a pool of 3, and our second buff pulls from a group of 6 (3 in utility and 3 in defense, but we pull from the combined pool).
So all of our frames could have just a defensive buff as their second one for example.

If we assume no replacement, that means our first frame slot has 3 x 6 options, our second frame slot has 2 x 5 options, and our third frame slot has 1 x 4 options.
If we assume we can have repeated buff values, then all of our frame slots have 3 x 6 options.

2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Now the Idiot Argument.  I refer to it as such because you already made it....but refuse it.  Why permutations over combinations.  Let's use B-E-G again, with a Harrow in the mix added because you seem to not understand the difference because 3*2*1= 3+2+1 (because this is the edge case where they are equal).  Let's then explain the potential outcomes.  Remember that DE has fixed the appearance of 3 types of buffs.  For an example, let's fix the arbitrary assignment of these buffs at a value of 1.  Our outcomes are:

BO1-ED1-GS1; BO1-GD1-ES1; BO1-HD1-GS1; BO1-GD1-HS1; BO1-HD1-ES1; BO1-ED1-HS1; 

EO1-BD1-GS1; EO1-GD1-BS1; EO1-HD1-GS1; EO1-GD1-HS1; EO1-HD1-BS1; EO1-BD1-HS1; 

GO1-ED1-BS1; GO1-BD1-ES1; GO1-HD1-BS1; GO1-BD1-HS1; GO1-HD1-ES1; GO1-ED1-HS1;

HO1-ED1-GS1; HO1-GD1-ES1; HO1-BD1-GS1; HO1-GD1-BS1; HO1-BD1-ES1; HO1-ED1-BS1 

Do you see yet?  Let me explain one more time.  The are the potential outcomes assuming that you have a fixed bonus type and bonus value.  In practice pwarframe choice*1*1.  Note that I've highlighted all of the B-E-G permutations.  Note also that line to line you substitute only one frame for another.  That is to say, line 2 switches Ember and Baruuk.  Line three is line one, with Grendel and Baruuk switched.  Line four is Harrow and Baruuk switched.  Note also I added a fourth frame, but instead of increasing by 4 ((4+3+2+1)-(3+2+1)) we've actually added 18 (4*3*2*1-3*2*1 = 24-6 = 18) potential setups.

Your example isn't a very good representation of the issue. You're only considering the pair of frame and 1 buff, with each of the buff values and types being fixed.

Let's consider the following set where we have O1, O2, and O3 as our buffs, and 3 frames, B, E, and G. Furthermore, frames and buffs are not replaced
So one of the permutations could be BO1-EO2-G03. Another permutation is EO2-GO3-BO1. But wait, that's the same thing. So we need a combination, not a permutation.

 

4 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

So, we're back to me being right on step one.  About 2 millions combinations.  This assumes that you have 3 buff types (as DE stated).  It assumes 3 buff levels for each type, because there is no information that contradicts and they're inept in providing enough data.  It assumes 46 warframes, because that is what we have now.  It doesn't assume a new frame will be added in...because unsurprisingly that is going to skew the combinations even higher.

We have 3 buff types yes. However, we know the first will be an offensive type, and that the second will be defense/utility type. As for assuming a new frame will be added in, DE has stated that Yareli will be added in U30.5, the same update that bring the Helminth expansion.

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8 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Do you not read? NO automatic rankups means NO affinity tracking means NO credit for exhausting the finite resource of Subsuming.

Necramechs have nothing to do with it. That's a completely different system that gatekept caps in a different way and - as far as I recall - if you had in fact used the Mech enough and had Forma already invested, you logged on with automatic cap extension and fill because affinity is tracked and item rank is a mathematical derivation of total affinity, it's not (example figures) '0-1000, 0-2000' etc. resetting to a floor when you go over, but 0-1000-3000-onwards building a continuous total.

But the explicit statement says that isn't happening here, so it's more like Syndicate reputation at cap being flatly curbed to nothing.

That's what Helminth is. A syndicate we're being cheated out of.

 

Let's define words....because apparently you want them to mean something else.  Let's also use the DE quote....because heaven forbid people take them at their word.  For a refresher, the quote:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 


Are Invigoration options only chosen based on Warframes you own?

No, much like Arbitration Warframe Buffs, the Invigorations options are pulled from the entire roster. 

 

 

Now....THE DEFINITION OF WORDS:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

Take note here, "automatically." 

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

Sweet jebus, a clear answer. They do not say that your accumulated XP will not be recalculated on day one to determine your new level.  They ask if on day one because you were 10/10 you'll automatically upgrade to  15/15.  This is not rocket science, it's the definition of words.  They explain how you accumulate xp....and say it'll be used to level you up.

 

WHY ARE MECHS A GOOD EXAMPLE?

No free levels were offered.  On day one the xp earned by killing was pulled, and the new level was calculated.  Oh my god....DE didn't explicitly state that they'd be using the previously earned xp on mechs....why didn't everyone freak the f*** out then?  Oh yeah....reading.  DE stated that mechs would rebalance to the earned xp they had....just like they're stating with the helminth.  For those curious, 29.5 was that update.  

But, we're (you guys, not me) assuming that you are at level 10...and there will be no recalculation.  This means anyone who has already plowed all the frames into the helminth cannot have all of that affinity added....so the only way to get the helminth to 15 will either be to wait it out....or simply use the helminth.  So...the person penalized is the edge case where you have plowed 100% of the resources in...but no longer use the helminth itself. 

Your complaint is this edge case will be cheated out of access to high level helminth abilities...which they would only want to apply if they used the helminth.  Is someone there drinking drain cleaner?  As someone who is done with the thing, and doesn't use it, I find no reason to care.  You have to instead find someone butt hurt, that endured the 40+ days to subsume all frames, who wants access to all powers, but is also unwilling to use and experiment with them.  All of which is predicated on DE not recalculating your level upon launch based on xp earned at the helminth...

 

Can we see the tsunami in a bottle here?  The mountain made from a mole hill?  Perhaps not.  Perhaps you need to fight this one out.  Power to ya.  At this point my response is that you've managed to make a hell of a situation out of the word automatic...  I believe the only word that, at this point, might compare, would be "malignant."

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4 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Now....THE DEFINITION OF WORDS:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

Take note here, "automatically." 

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

Sweet jebus, a clear answer. They do not say that your accumulated XP will not be recalculated on day one to determine your new level.  They ask if on day one because you were 10/10 you'll automatically upgrade to  15/15.  This is not rocket science, it's the definition of words.  They explain how you accumulate xp....and say it'll be used to level you up.

The statement is a bit ambigous. I don't see DE mentioning that your excess XP when subsuming frames before the update will be applied after the update. We'll see when the update goes live.

A side note, your "hostile" attitude towards other arguing with you only makes your credibility questionable.

Edited by DrivaMain
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Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

 

This is a big mistake. Not respecting players time and efforts is always a bad thing. 

Reconsider this decision and provide the proper amount of experience where it's due.

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49 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

The basis of approaching an issue is to communicate what you have to work with and the assumptions being made. That was the purpose of listing the facts/assumptions.

I said that each buff type having three different values was a fair assumption.

And I've said that that there are 3 buff types, as DE states as much in the post.
However, they don't state that all 3 buff types will be covered (I welcome a quote stating otherwise from the Workshop), only that each frame will have an offensive type buff and then one chosen from defensive/utility. Effectively this means you have (under our assumption that each buff type has three potential values) that our first buff (the offensive one) pulls from a pool of 3, and our second buff pulls from a group of 6 (3 in utility and 3 in defense, but we pull from the combined pool).
So all of our frames could have just a defensive buff as their second one for example.

If we assume no replacement, that means our first frame slot has 3 x 6 options, our second frame slot has 2 x 5 options, and our third frame slot has 1 x 4 options.
If we assume we can have repeated buff values, then all of our frame slots have 3 x 6 options.

Your example isn't a very good representation of the issue. You're only considering the pair of frame and 1 buff, with each of the buff values and types being fixed.

Let's consider the following set where we have O1, O2, and O3 as our buffs, and 3 frames, B, E, and G. Furthermore, frames and buffs are not replaced
So one of the permutations could be BO1-EO2-G03. Another permutation is EO2-GO3-BO1. But wait, that's the same thing. So we need a combination, not a permutation.

 

We have 3 buff types yes. However, we know the first will be an offensive type, and that the second will be defense/utility type. As for assuming a new frame will be added in, DE has stated that Yareli will be added in U30.5, the same update that bring the Helminth expansion.

 

Hold your breath.  Please.  Do so until you turn blue.  Once you lose consciousness take about 8 hours and come back.  I, for the record, am asking you to take a nap.  It improves cognitive functions.  

 

THE QUOTE ON THE FRONT PAGE IS:

Every week, your Helminth will have an Affinity toward 3 Random Warframes. You can interact with Helminth with these Warframes to gain select Weekly Buffs (one Offensive and one Utility/Defense)! For example:

 

This is represented in my math by O-S-D (offense, support, defense).  IT IS STATED IN THE FIRST POST.  I thus did not believe you'd follow through with the insanity of assuming otherwise....but here we stand.  GO TO SLEEP.  YOU NEED REST, OR YOU NEED A CLEARER HEAD.

 

_________________________

 

 

The matrix of 3 lines, consisting of 27 options, is the potential PERMUTATIONS of a fixed 3 buff type with 3 buff options.  See above.  If you did not have 3 fixed buff types the opportunities shift.  You would be looking at COMBINATIONS of warframes, and 3*3*3*3 different options for the buffs.  That's each of the 3 frames having 3 options with 3 different levels for 3 buffs.  Note that this is not what was explained in the FIRST POST, and thus is not how things were calculated.  For the record, that only has (46+45+44)*3*3*3*3 = 135*81 = 10935 different arrangements.  

 

 

_______________________

 

Matrix math.  Sweet jebus I have to explain this.  You have what I already showed with the B-E-G matrix.  Now, create a matrix of those matrixes, where the 1-1-1 is changed based upon the 27 potential iterations of the buff levels.  That's basically taking a matrix of 3 dimensions (3 frame choices), and iterating it within a matrix of 3 dimensions (3 potential buff levels).  This is why the number gets dizzyingly high....and why your squishy brain has a problem processing it.  For the record, my squishy brain did to, hence the wobbling back and forth on that extra 3 multiplier.

 

-Edit-

I'm going to assume you don't get this....because based upon the other bits you don't understand the underlying structure.  Copy that B-E-G matrix.  Paste it.  Now, you have a second matrix where each trio of option is 1-1-2 instead of 1-1-1.  Note that this means you're going to have 27 B-E-G matrices....or (3*2*1)*3*3*3.  Holy crap....the numbers align.  

Now, why not do this?  I have respect for my time, and assumed that you can do rote copy paste operations.  Based upon the response, and your O1-O2-O3 comment this may be a dramatic over assumption of you ability.  That said, I cannot be bothered to teach you something so insanely basic.  Before you start claiming other people don't get a thing, maybe you should make sure you do.  Please.  

-Edit end- 

_______________

 

 

How do I know there will be multiple levels of buffs for each type?  Well, I f***ing read.  THE FIRST BLOODY POST.

 

"....

These will be drawn randomly per player. Tenno can check their Helminth during the Weekly reset to see what Invigorations are available for the week. Once you infuse the Invigoration, it lasts the week before the power of the Helminth wears off. 

To give players some control over what will be very powerful buffs, the Helminth takes note of your interactions - for every 10 Invigorations you do, you’ll be able to Select what Warframe receives the next buff! 

.....
Are Invigoration options only chosen based on Warframes you own?

No, much like Arbitration Warframe Buffs, the Invigorations options are pulled from the entire roster

..."

 

Pay attention to the underlined, italicized, bolded section above.  The selection of the frames is going to be done by DE every week, and the buff will be randomized per player.  This means that there is a static buff selection (O-S-D), there is a dynamic warframe selection (permutation), and there are multiple levels of buffs which will be unique.

 

 

 

_______________________________

 

I'm done now.  You can have the last words, but I'd recommend using them carefully.  To this point you failed to read the first post.  You failed to articulate the differences ad assumptions which would allow for a combination rather than permutation mathematical model.  You failed to demonstrate why my models fail...despite claiming that they are inaccurate, while not presenting a single one of your own.  Hell, at this point I really don't even understand why you want to fight.  I don't really believe that you have a point here anymore, but you're welcome to try and articulate it.  

Again, read please.  It'd look pretty silly if someone else could refute your points by simply copying and pasting the very first post...

Edited by master_of_destiny
Added definition to why the matrix math already covers the previous comment
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41 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

The statement is a bit ambigous. I don't see DE mentioning that your excess XP when subsuming frames before the update will be applied after the update. We'll see when the update goes live.

A side note, your "hostile" attitude towards other arguing with you only makes your credibility questionable.

 

Funny.  It's almost like when I asked nicely for a citation the response was a flood of people screaming at the top of their lungs that I was wrong....because.

 

My hostility is borne from a frustration that people cannot read.  If the commentary was "please explain how our currently subsumed warframes will be accounted for in the new level calculation." I'd gladly have said nothing, and eagerly awaited an answer.  Instead you have an entire army of people whining that it's the end of the world that they might be slightly inconvenienced...in multiple threads.

If DE looks at us collectively and sees that people lose their s*** over literally nothing then there's no reason to pay attention to the forums.  If their moderation is rightly off for the weekend, and they slapped this into our laps at the end of Friday, then Monday and Tuesday will simply be DE trying to make sense of the threads.  This was meant as a simple question, and the response was a tidal welling of butt hurt.  You suggesting that it damages my credibility after a half dozen people screaming at me that I just don't understand...without any reason, is pretty much demonstrating that you're not aware of the start of this.  That said, you're more than willing to pile on.  Why exactly does your opinion matter if you cannot even be bothered to understand?

 

 

-Edit-

Do let me be clear, because apparently people now require that more than anything else.  I agree that DE was ambiguous in their definitions.  I would conjecture that is because they don't even have this crap nailed down on their side...because they always seem to release quarter baked.  That said, maybe the play here is to calm down, and ask for citation or clarification.  Maybe instead of starting off by screaming that the world is going to end you should calm down...because DE does this crap every time.  

You hopefully get it, but I won't assume.  DE cites a terrible change.  The community gets absolutely up in arms.  They walk back the most heinous crap, and only that.  What we are left with is still bad....but they "listened to feedback" so we cannot be too angry....right?  I mean, it only took like 7 years for something like 24 hour construction timers to be 23 hours.  And 3 nav beacons for Mesa to only require one.  And the Ghoul Saw is coming out "soon," right?  I won't even suggest the universal vacuum debate....too late. 

 

Ahh.....never mind.  Let's just watch as this things burns to the ground, so the polite amongst us can remain polite.  How very...prudent to maintain that stoicism in the face unbridled rage.

-Edit end-

Edited by master_of_destiny
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Please do not add the Invigorations.  As much fun as it might be to have a bonus of like 900% power strength in an Aribtration, we really, really do not need more power creep.  Especially randomized power creep.

 

 

Also, kinda shame we could never use Expedite Suffering and Sickening Pulse together.  There's potential for some interesting play/synergy between those two.

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On 2021-06-18 at 5:48 PM, Gensoukyou1337 said:

Doesn't Spellbind also give you immunity to Status effects on hold-casting? Unless I'm not remembering things right, that is.

I can see many Rhino mains using this instead of Rhino's Charge with the Augment. Depending on the numbers, that is.

yes, on Titania at least if you hold Spellbind she gets the Immunity whereas tap grants her team it instead. Think the Subsumed version is identical...

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Make Parasitic Armor a passive, or toggle that doesn't disable energy regen and its good. I had thought of a mod suggestion to make that is on a similar wave, "Tolerance Shields" Allows N% damage to bypass shields till 50% health, 0.1 seconds shield gate, and now shield goes back to absorbing full damage before being depleted and working normally. Its thought as a defensive option, mostly favoring frames/builds that can heal and synergize with Rage/Adrenaline.

The other abilities also look ok, depending on implementation/delivery.

INVIGORATIONS, no good. Random stuff, on top of Random stuff, on top of Time Gate. Ugh, no please, and this doesn't really add anything noteworthy either.

Here are 2 ideas somewhat related instead:

Make disruption random buffs and debuffs permanent on the match, according to success and failure. Just lower the effect of each so they can stack and one or two failures aren't crippling. Expand on the game mode instead of adding a completely new node taht long term dilutes player focus.

Make helminth infuse, retract Augments on frames. Instead of flavor of the week, let us further customize and optimize what we like. Its fine to make it a resource drain, like increasing cost on each augment a frame has infused, first aug x1 cost, another on top of that one x2, another on top that one x3. And release way more augments, even for skills that already have some. Just throwing the idea.

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2 minutes ago, Antris said:

Make Parasitic Armor a passive, or toggle that doesn't disable energy regen and its good. I had thought of a mod suggestion to make that is on a similar wave, "Tolerance Shields" Allows N% damage to bypass shields till 50% health, 0.1 seconds shield gate, and now shield goes back to absorbing full damage before being depleted and working normally. Its thought as a defensive option, mostly favoring frames/builds that can heal and synergize with Rage/Adrenaline.

The other abilities also look ok, depending on implementation/delivery.

INVIGORATIONS, no good. Random stuff, on top of Random stuff, on top of Time Gate. Ugh, no please, and this doesn't really add anything noteworthy either.

Here are 2 ideas somewhat related instead:

Make disruption random buffs and debuffs permanent on the match, according to success and failure. Just lower the effect of each so they can stack and one or two failures aren't crippling. Expand on the game mode instead of adding a completely new node taht long term dilutes player focus.

Make helminth infuse, retract Augments on frames. Instead of flavor of the week, let us further customize and optimize what we like. Its fine to make it a resource drain, like increasing cost on each augment a frame has infused, first aug x1 cost, another on top of that one x2, another on top that one x3. And release way more augments, even for skills that already have some. Just throwing the idea.

I thought that was the original Helminth- no more Augments but a RPG/ MMO like talent system where we picked one of three possible Augments per ability depending on Helminth level. So at cap all Abilities could have an Augment say.

That would remove Augs from Mod loadouts and it would be permanent for that setup; kiiinda like Diablo 3's Armoury in current version - gear, skills and Kanai Cube Passives are saved in a loadout slot. But what we got is the current system

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On 2021-06-18 at 3:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

This is not even remotely okay. I subsumed every warframe except Xaku, Grendel and Chroma (iirc). Subsuming is the main source of exp for the helminth.  Now I'm supposed to grind an ungodly amount of resources to drop into this, just to get access to to rank 15, because I had the audactiy of wanting to play around with your game and doing the grind. Warframe has never disrespected our time spent this much, and I'm counting the original Hema research farm I did with my moon rank clan. I'm deeply dissapointed, but allow me to present a solution.

It is incredibly easy to track which frames a person has subsumed, since this is known account information. A script to set the player helminth exp to the cumulative exp for all warframes subsumed or the current exp, whichever is higher, would do the trick. Yes, you might lose all exp for abilities you infused, but it's still way better than nothing.

I want to like these workshops. I think the melee nerfs are fair enough, and the primary and secondary stuff looks fun. I still won't use the parazon (beyond hacking), even if pablo takes half a minute to kill an enemy, but that really doesn't change my gameplay experience so w/e. I've always loved the idea behind the helminth system, and I'm hyped for invigoration, but honestly, if I have to spent another month slowly grinding resources for exp after spending three months to get almost all the frames in there, why should I bother?

I love this game, and I will probably always come back to it, I just really wish you wouldn't try to make us feel like we're wasting our time.

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This whole issue of helminth level is kinda a slap in the face to players that went through and subsumed every frame. now that xp is not available to us and the only way left to me is to feed the helminth resources. if I was able to earn the xp that I would have earned had I had level 15 available. As for the argument of the Mechs not automatic leveling to 40 affinity isn't a lost endeavor players earn affinity for everything they do so getting level 40 really wasn't a huge deal. This just has bad feels right now. but I guess 1 day we will max the level out with normal play

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1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

Hold your breath.  Please.  Do so until you turn blue.  Once you lose consciousness take about 8 hours and come back.  I, for the record, am asking you to take a nap.  It improves cognitive functions.  

I think you're the one who needs that rest. You're incredibly insulting for no good reason. The writing by DE is ambiguous, but clearly leans towards no rank up, not no free rank up. It was also originally in response to people asking about already subsumed warframes, not people who just wanted to be rank 15 instantly when they stopped interacting with helminth at rank 10.

People are asking because subsuming is a one-time occurrence per warframe. The way they have written their answer implies that "new" subsume action will continue to provide exp. This in turn implies that "old" subsume actions will not count. This is where issue is taken. Until this is clearly addressed by someone from DE, let us express our worries, and be civil about it. That's literally what dev workshops are for, to give the community a heads-up on plans, and get some early feedback on what we perceive as problematic.

You telling people that they're idiots, can't read, and should choke themselves into unconsciousness, to pick a few examples, isn't helping anybody, nor is it clarifying anything.

In order to help you calm down a bit, may I suggest yoga or meditation? Alternatively, unplugging your router might help limit your exposure too. As will it ours.

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En 18/6/2021 a las 6:56, [DE]Rebecca dijo:

- Adding a new system: INVIGORATIONS!

plz, no more random buffs, everything was fine but this is not.

The new helmith skills are nice, the idea is nice, but invigorations is a really bad idea in my opinion.

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2 hours ago, Lancars said:

I don't want invigorations. But I know you're gonna cripple something in the game to make me use it.

Selling Medicine by Poisoning The Water Supply... That's the Warframe Design Philosophy 😝 !!!

2 hours ago, Lancars said:

 

Just cause the content locusts consume and demand more doesn't mean you need to keep creating all these stupid grinds to fix what you assume is a problem. You're always going to have problems with things. Some made worse with crap band-aids.

Sadly it's not the simple.... It's likely that the Content Locusts are DE's cash cows so they keep designing everything around them because That's where the money is.... And that wouldn't be a bad thing if they weren't Content Locusts....

2 hours ago, Lancars said:

 

I'm honestly getting tired of the constant overhauls and changes at times that make me feel like my investments in the content is going to be pointless. I know I'm overthinking it but with system after system, overhaul after overhaul can I really trust my time is going to be valued?

 Nope.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

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I've been reading through the thread, and off & on I saw a couple of things that sounded similar to what I've been thinking about all of this. I'll go into detail here & there. That being said, I also have a few questions of my own regarding some of it.

 

First things first, I'd like to suggest a couple of things for these new abilities! If they are open to feedback & changes. After all, the Helminth deals with abilities and resources, no reason why it can't become better than it was before.

On 2021-06-18 at 6:56 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

PARASITIC ARMOR (11)

Sacrifice Shields to reinforce Armor for a period of time

I think that can help out some Warframes who have more shields, but would benefit from more Armor such as Frost or Frost Prime. I'm looking forward to seeing the stats on the ability and how long it lasts in practice when the time comes. It actually reminds me of Chroma's Vex Armor a little bit :)

  • As someone else before me suggested, can there be an additional hold-to-cast function to perform the reverse? Sacrificing Armor to give you more shields / Overshields? It could be an interesting alternative.

 

On 2021-06-18 at 6:56 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

HIDEOUS RESISTANCE (12)

Grant yourself immunity to Status effects.

I am curious about this one as well; Is there more to the ability behind-the-scenes than what's in the description here? Not that I'm complaining of course, but Titania's Spellbind is quite similar-sounding at the moment. One thought I had was if this has a very long duration to make up for the lack of other functionality, since it only gives the user Status immunity; Compared to Spellbind which affects other things when tapping.
 

  • An interesting twist (Or Helminth ability augment if the Entrati sold them!) could be to flip status effects around!

    Rather than giving you immunity, what if you benefited from a status proc? If you're on fire, you can spread the fire proc to other enemies on contact (While the flames increase your own armor briefly), or heal from Toxin damage, or magnetic causing you to regenerate shields at a faster speed or reduced delay! This would really set it apart from all other status immunity-esque abilities.
     
    • Although this ^ change became the new functionality of the ability, I suppose you could call it Hideous Acceptance :)

 

On 2021-06-18 at 6:56 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

VORACIOUS METASTASIS (13)

Consume Energy to heal yourself and grant matching Energy to each ally.

That sounds pretty useful, depending on the situation. Will that energy increase also work while those allies are using a channeled ability, or at least slow down the rate of their energy drain? I think that would help.

  • That said, how would this affect Necramechs and Operators, since they use energy as well?

 

On 2021-06-18 at 6:56 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

SICKENING PULSE (14)

Emit a pulse that adds stacks to Status Effects already afflicting enemies, except Bleed or Toxin effects which are duplicated with fresh timers.

It'll be an interesting idea depending on what status procs you're using; Come to think of it, with the changes to Impact in the other thread, will this lead to Parazon finishers reaching the threshold sooner with less Impact procs?

  • I think it'll be interesting to see a list of how each type of status proc is interacted with using this ability :)

 

On 2021-06-18 at 6:56 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

GOLDEN INSTINCT (15)

Send out a short-lived Void Spark that is drawn toward the nearest Medallion, Ayatan Sculpture, unscanned Kuria or unscanned Fragment.

This one really stood out to me; It'll definitely help anyone having trouble finding those things. However, the first thought I had was: Can this be used to find Rare and Reinforced containers? If so, I would like to propose a good way to separate what it looks for:

  • Additional functionality; Hold-to-Cast to check the entire map, if no such crate exists, then the ability menu ideally shouldn't say something like "Invalid Target", etc.; But rather "Target not Spawned". That will give more clarity by telling you upfront if the crate you're looking for actually exists or not, so you won't spend the entire mission just searching for nothing.
     
    • If the crate does exist somewhere, then it'll send out the Void spark as normal and use up some energy.
       
  • That being said, there is one other thing I wanted to bring up;

    I actually suggested something a little similar to this almost a year ago:
    Spoiler

    The original thread this similar idea came from

    This came from the Misc. section of that thread, which goes over several other ideas; Not that they're relevant here.

     

    Radar widget for Simaris Scanner: This can alter the enemy icons shown by your radar mods by highlighting the minimap arrows noticeably for enemies that have not been fully scanned yet! This way you don't need to directly open and close the scanner to see the red highlight on an enemy. Since you can use the scanner during Archwing, this widget will also work there for all those fast enemy fighter craft.

    • Maybe this widget can also help with locating Somachord / Cephalon fragments in Open world environments? Theoretically by showing you a Sanctuary Target (Double-helix) like-trail just like if you were going after a Simaris Bounty Target! It would help with finding them in such a huge place.

     

    Golden Instinct certainly is different than altering the icons on the minimap, but the similarity I noticed was in regards to that hypothetical Widget showing you a small trail towards a scannable fragment or Somachord Tone.

    I'm looking forward to trying out that ability though; & I can't stress it enough, if it's alright to ask please add in some indication for Rare and Reinforced crates. It wouldn't need to tell you which one if that is a fair compromise, but at least letting you know that the object exists within your mission will be a great feeling, I think.

     


     
  • Alternatively I thought about having it be a gear item, where you could designate a personal target for it to search for ( Including unknown object Codex entries, which would be a "?" ), but to balance it you couldn't change targets mid-mission. Food for thought I suppose.

 

 

On 2021-06-18 at 6:56 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

INTRODUCING: INVIGORATIONS

 

Son has been busy developing new bio-technologies for Helminth. Visit SON in the Necralisk on DEIMOS to obtain the New Segment required to upgrade your Helminth to perform a new operation: Invigorations! 


Our main objective with this system expansion is really simple: give players a way to engage with Warframes they may not have used in a while!


Here’s how it will work:
 

Every week, your Helminth will have an Affinity toward 3 Random Warframes. You can interact with Helminth with these Warframes to gain select Weekly Buffs (one Offensive and one Utility/Defense)! For example:

 

Zephyr: 200% Power Strength and Immune To Status
Atlas: 200% Primary Critical Chance and +1000 Armor
Excalibur: 250% Melee Damage and 75% power Efficiency

 

These will be drawn randomly per player. Tenno can check their Helminth during the Weekly reset to see what Invigorations are available for the week. Once you infuse the Invigoration, it lasts the week before the power of the Helminth wears off. 

To give players some control over what will be very powerful buffs, the Helminth takes note of your interactions - for every 10 Invigorations you do, you’ll be able to Select what Warframe receives the next buff! 

 

Now this is something I saw mentioned by many Tenno here. I can understand some of the frustration towards it, but I think it is good to try new things with the Helminth system. However, there's a small reason why I mentioned about functionality earlier.

As the system is currently, it technically is a "way" for people to engage with other Warframes. However, there is something else to consider regarding numbers; Increasing the %stats on a Warframe will not change how it's abilities function. It may still feel quite similar to engage with, and therefore someone might choose to Invigorate the Frame to add another 10% towards your chosen Invigoration in 3-4 weeks (Considering it wasn't clarified if you can use all 3 presented choices per week, or if you can only choose 1), and not actually use the Frame that week.

  • As I said, I do think it's good to try new things, but when it comes to new functionality vs additional buffs, Quality vs Quantity, I think a more engaging system may lean towards the former.

    I did want to expand on what I originally thought of in the Revised Dev Workshop thread from a few days ago. As a reference, here's what I initially thought the Helminth Expansion could entail:
    Spoiler

    ( Copied from my post on there! )

     

    1. Perhaps would it allow you to infuse two different abilities into your Warframe, instead of just one? That would be a good idea hypothetically, as not only would it save people from having to farm a third copy of all their Frames, but it increases your combat-customization as well. If there are two different abilities you'd like to use, you can have both of them.
       
      • This may also reduce any need to think of a second Subsume ability for the entire list of Frames; Thus eliminating any need for balancing more of those nonexistent additional subsume abilities.
         
        • That being said, more Helminth-original abilities would always be welcome I think! I recall Super Jump being mentioned before, so maybe that could be infused alongside another Frame's subsume ability? Of course ideally, having two different Warframe abilities (Such as Oberon's Smite alongside Protea's Dispensary) infused at the same time would be amazing.
           
    2. The next-best idea I can think of would be to allow the Helminth (Probably at a new Max-rank) to infuse the power of a Warframe's ability augment into their abilities. A compromise to this would be to sacrifice a copy of that augment mod for every frame you have that ability on.
       
      • Although perhaps that could then be saved per Warframe, so you don't need to sacrifice two of the same augment if you were to take off the ability and put it back on. Such as regenerative Molt; If you infuse Molt onto a frame, and sacrifice the augment mod, but later take off Molt for something else, the Helminth could remember that your specific Warframe previously had Regenerative Molt, and give you the option to take an augmented-version, or just the regular Molt when you re-infuse that ability to said Frame.
         
    3. One last thought I had involved Warframe passives being subsumed, but that would likely be a bit much. It may be easier and better to look into one of the above routes instead, since the Helminth is already made for abilities rather than passives.
       
      • Although Titania's passive is one of my favorites, as far as that goes :)

     


     
  • Out of all those, the main point that makes the most sense to me is #2. As for why that is, it goes back to when the Helminth first came out; It deals with abilities in return for resources, basically. Expanding that with Warframe augmentation will certainly deepen the customization of a player's Frame! If this can be explored, I want to venture out with this:

    As stated in my original point, in order for the Helminth to augment an ability without using a mod slot on that Warframe, you'll first have to sacrifice that augment. Probably a fully-ranked mod, to be safe. Then, the Helminth permanently stores the knowledge of that mod's functions / additions within itself.

 

How would this work in practice?

  • Let's say you have Chroma subsumed and access to his Elemental Ward, and Everlasting Ward was already sacrificed. If you have another Frame besides him or Chroma Prime walk up to receive that ability, they sit in the chair and upon selection you're now greeted with a choice: Would you like to have Elemental Ward augmented before infusing?

    If not, you just proceed with the regular process. If you opt-in for the augmented version, then the Helminth's secretion requirements ( To balance this out some ) increase to 100% of all three relevant categories (Whichever secretions the ability normally requires). You can still apply this augmented-version to all Configs in one go, and have it be removed as needed. In order to do this again, you'll still need 100% of all relevant secretions.
     
    • If you then try to use another copy of the Everlasting Ward mod on a Config where the augmented Ward already exists, then an on-screen message will tell you that it's already augmented, or alternatively the mod just can't be placed there (That's probably simpler).
       
  • Same thing goes for all the other abilities in the Helminth's repertoire, if you have an augment sacrificed, you'll be asked if you want that put in beforehand. For those subsumed abilities with multiple augments (Like Ivara's Quiver), perhaps you can simply choose which augment you'd like to use during the Infusion? Unless I'm mistaken, I don't know if you can use two different augments on the same ability, so this should be taken into account as well.
     
  • The amount of time to subsume an entire Frame takes a day, so considering that, to further balance out this Augmentation system perhaps an augment mod can take anywhere from 1-3 hours to be fully digested? That'll give people time to do other things for a bit, similar to crafting items in the Foundry.

 

What about other augments not in the Helminth's list of abilities, like Frost's Snow Globe augment?

  • To be honest, I'm not 100% sure if abilities outside of the list should be included for this. But if they were, since those are abilities the Helminth did not learn, their augments could take double the time compared to an ability in the list.
     
    • Hypothetically at that point, there could be an option for Frost (As an example) to sit in the chair an select "Other augments". This may open up a choice of the sacrificed augments, and letting you choose which one you want to use. To balance this out, perhaps you can only pick one off-the-books (For lack of a better term) augment at a time, per config. So you'd still have to use up a mod slot if you wanted to run an infused Chilling Globe and another off-the-books ability augment like his Icy Avalanche.

 

If someone has all the augments sacrificed, and Helminth is max rank, what then?

  • Probably the most important question for something like this. I suppose they'd have to just set their own goals and think of what they want from the huge list of augments themselves, until a future Warframe is introduced like Yareli. However, that does bring me to one last point: Helminth ability augment mods.
     
  • There are two ways to think about it, both of them being great avenues to explore;
     
    1. New augments for the existing Helminth abilities (Like the one I proposed above for Hideous Resistance),
       
    2. & new ability augments made by / from the Helminth for your existing abilities! Of course these would take much longer to work on, I imagine.
       
  • I've had some ideas of augments for the current Helminth abilities, so I'll just list those here;
     
    • Empower augment:  Embolden

      Increases the ability range of your next cast. This will no longer affect ability strength.
       
    • Infested Mobility augment:  Infested Vigor

      Adds a hold-to-cast option to temporarily increase your fire rate for all projectile-based weapons.
       
      • This covers Primaries (Including shotguns and Arm cannons), Secondaries, and Archguns that shoot bullets, etc.; Beam-based weapons may create more ticks of damage at a time, perhaps.
         
    • Master's Summons augment:  Master's Protection

      Adds a hold-to-cast option to give your companion(s) a brief period of damage immunity (This is a WIP, off the top of my head to be honest). To balance it, perhaps it could cost 150% as much energy as the normal cast would?

      It would apply to your Sentinel and / or other companions no matter where they are, so you won't need to summon them to you beforehand.
       
      • Companion survivability is an important topic, although it may not be as relevant on this thread to be fair.
         
  • I think Son would be the best place for all these hypothetical Helminth augments! Plus, it can give people another reason to try these abilities on their builds :)

 

I'm not sure what new Helminth augments could be made for Warframe-specific abilities, but that's a bridge to be crossed at a later time.


All that being said, I do have some final questions here;

On 2021-06-18 at 6:56 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Are Invigoration options only chosen based on Warframes you own?

No, much like Arbitration Warframe Buffs, the Invigorations options are pulled from the entire roster.

Firstly, how exactly is the entire roster being addressed with Invigorations? Are Prime Warframes and Excalibur Umbra going to be rolled separately (Like if you got Excalibur, Excalibur Prime, and then Umbra at the same time rolled), or can you use alternate-versions of a Warframe as well?

  • If you had Mirage rolled, could you invigorate both her & Mirage Prime, or just whoever you choose first?
     
  • And can a Warframe be re-invigorated, if you decide to opt-out after trying it the first time? If so, I think it would make sense for only the first invigoration of said Frame to count, so you can't just use a Prime and non-Prime to get two different Invigorations per rolled slot. Otherwise that could be 6 Invigorations per week.
     
    • If I had to choose between Invigorations or the idea of Helminth augmenting our abilities (Especially some Helminth-original augments!), I think I'd choose the augment option. But tweaking the Invigorations idea should be considered, if it's implemented after all.

 

On 2021-06-18 at 6:56 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Helminth Workshop FAQ: 

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

I've also seen a lot of the discussion revolving around this as well. In the hypothetical event people won't receive back-logged affinity (Not sure how to word it) for the Helminth, would it be a fair idea to have Ordis give you an inbox message containing all the estimated resources you've used in Subsuming your Frames?

  • In theory, that would be a way to compensate people who Subsumed 1 Frame or more than one Frame, and even all of them before Yareli. I think each Subsume needs different types of resources / amounts though, so it'll take some figuring-out to do it.
     
    • Unless the grand total of all those resources was based off the number of subsumed Warframes, similar to the Railjack early adopters bundles. It's just some food for thought though.

 

That's all I can think of for now regarding the Helminth Expansion; I do have some thoughts on the other threads, but that isn't relevant here. Thanks for hearing me out :)

Edited by (NSW)Gamer-Steve
Accidentally posted earlier than intended! Still working on all this! Edit #2: Finally finished the post. Does anyone have an thoughts on it? The Helminth ability augments were an interesting thought for me :)
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On 2021-06-18 at 9:56 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Helminth Workshop FAQ: 

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

 

 

This is bad.  Why are you punishing people for having subsumed warframes already?  If you want to not give us XP for infusing abilities/feeding Helminth, fine, but subsuming warframes cannot be done again.  Not applying retroactive XP for subsuming warframes is punishing early adopters.

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2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Instead you have an entire army of people whining that it's the end of the world that they might be slightly inconvenienced...in multiple threads.

Then.. don't reply. Simple as that, if that person you are arguing with seems like a waste of time to you then you lift up your feet and move on.

Most of us know the saying "Arguing with a genius is hard, but arguing with an idiot is impossible".

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On 2021-06-18 at 9:56 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

I'm glad early adopters and the oldies get backstabbed AGAIN. New people and people who didn't do all their subsumes already will breeze right through this new stuff. All the old players? Naw. We get to wait months or spend an ungodly amount of resources to get to try the new stuff. Brilliant. 

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6 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Oh I'm pretty sure a decent chunk will.... Especially if DE Rig's Nightwave Acts to make people consider using this Ability 😈.... You know... Like they did with Railjack 😱 !!!

Just like how they're forcing SP down our throats instead of making it actually enjoyable. 

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On 2021-06-18 at 11:40 AM, 16Bitman said:

Instead of pushing us to play Warframes we don't like, players will instead demand +200% power strength buffs for certain activities.

Farming Harrow? Better have a 300% Power Strength +200% Helminth Power Strength Wisp on you or you're not invited!

 

We will also have to really carefully use our 10+ buff of choice for events, if you use it on the wrong Warframe, you will be at a severe disadvantage to make it big on the leaderboards.

I literally thought this exact thing. Imagine this...

"Hosting Scarlet Spear ground squad. Must have +200% ability strength on your Mesa."

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How to make this better 

A) Run a line of code on update drop that gives players a flat amount of XP to Helminth based on how many frames have already been subsumed. I'm gonna give DE the benefit of the doubt and assume they can't run code that can remember how many frames we've subsumed after we hit max helminth level. If a player has subsumed all of the frames thus far, they should get 3 levels at least. They'll STILL be at a disadvantage because they won't be getting full subsume XP while others will, but at least they get something for early adopting. If y'all don't do something like this then it is obvious the decision of no retroactive credit was intentionally made with the result being spitting on old players who PLAYED your content. If you were simply stuck and unable to do anything because code wouldn't allow it (which is understandable to a degree) and couldn't think of a solution, you have us, the community (not JUST the design council), here to give you solutions. I hope you didn't just knowingly and intentionally stab your old players. 

B) Do NOT do Invigorations based on ANY RNG. My performance in the game relative to others should NOT be determined by a double layer RNG system. It will also decide if I'm included in activities just as not having 200 hydro caps does. Imagine this... "Hosting new event. Must have X frame with +200% Ability strength." I dunno if you just believe your community is full of Angels who would rather be a good samaritan than be efficient or go for the high score, but that isn't the case. I speak from years of experience. The idea of invigorations is neat but it can't be RNG. Even without RNG, inclusion issues will just increase further. Have you not learned from watching recruit chat during night cycles? The amount of players excluded because they don't gave 200 caps is absurd. This will make that problem be ingrained throughout the game. 

Edited by (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1
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23 hours ago, SolarDwagon said:

I see a huge problem in engagement for veteran players here-Anyone who has capped out subsumes will be at a huge disadvantage for getting to higher ranks.

Not necessarily. You get Helminth XP every time you feed it too, so veterans can just put cheap dummy infusions on their frames and get some free ranks far more quickly than players who choose to just wait a day between each subsume.
Plus this is coming out with a new frame and it explicitly says you'll get XP for each frame you affect with an Invigoration, which is a system veterans can take advantage of more easily than new players.

Edited by Archwizard
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