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Helminth Grows a New Appetite: 30.5 Update!


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53 minutes ago, (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

I'm gonna give DE the benefit of the doubt and assume they can't run code that can remember how many frames we've subsumed after we hit max helminth level.

We have a flower garden marking each frame we've subsumed, each one also puts an item in our inventory marking we've unlocked that subsume, we only get 33 Subsume slots before max level and the current max Helminth level is literally "Unlimited Subsume Slots".
Bearing in mind that Yareli will be Frame #47 so there is a minimum well of untapped XP.

I'll grant that there's nothing to say whether it tracked how much XP of the first 10 levels was devoted to the 33 subsume slots it gave us, but at the very least if you have more than that it shouldn't be hard to code a "if subsume.count() > 33: helminth.xp += subsume_xp * (subsume.count() - 33)" style script.
Yes, the syntax I've put there is simplified I'm sure, but everything logically necessary for something like it to work is already there.

Edited by Archwizard
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I love the random buff idea!

As a player who enjoys the majority of Warframes and exclusively plays arbitration with the buffed Warframe, I am going to enjoy this system so much. This system is clearly intended for players like me.

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9 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

We have a flower garden marking each frame we've subsumed, each one also puts an item in our inventory marking we've unlocked that subsume, we only get 33 Subsume slots before max level and the current max Helminth level is literally "Unlimited Subsume Slots".
Bearing in mind that Yareli will be Frame #47 so there is a minimum well of untapped XP.

I'll grant that there's nothing to say whether it tracked how much XP of the first 10 levels was devoted to the 33 subsume slots it gave us, but at the very least if you have more than that it shouldn't be hard to code a "if subsume.count() > 33: helminth.xp += subsume_xp * (subsume.count() - 33)" style script.
Yes, the syntax I've put there is simplified I'm sure, but everything logically necessary for something like it to work is already there.

This is what I thought of at first as well, but it'd have to many variables. How much of your XP came from feeding? How much from infusing? These thoughts are what lead me to a more uniform and controlled idea of XP needed for level 13 minus XP needed for level 10 divided by number of frames in the game as of now and then myltiplying that by frames already subsumed. It just means there's less variables and it's consistent. As long as that amount is worth more than the excess of only subsuming to 10, we're good. 

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7 minutes ago, (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

This is what I thought of at first as well, but it'd have to many variables. How much of your XP came from feeding? How much from infusing?

Right. Which is why I said we should use the 33 slots you have before Max Rank as a benchmark. If you have subsumed 34 frames, then that is at minimum 1 frame whose XP could only have been received after Rank 10. Guaranteed.

Could you have used fewer of your subsume slots before then? Sure. Maybe you only subsumed 10 frames before you got to Rank 10 and up to 23 of your subsumes now will go uncounted. You might not get XP for every frame you ever subsumed, but if we only count after 33, the people who have overcapped by now would at least get something.

Edited by Archwizard
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This workshop in its entirety is disappointing.

1. Did you do all the helminth stuff already? well sucks to be me because you won't give me the XP i would have gained now!

2. RANDOM buffs? what? even the thought of people asking for invigorated frames is oh such a bad idea!

MORE RANDOMNESS is NOT GOOD, i would even say you have to rework ur entire random generator because of how outdated it already is and you wanna make the game even MORE RANDOM??!??!!?!?!??! this raises some serious questions as to what you want to make the game!

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38 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

You might not get XP for every frame you ever subsumed, but if we only count after 33, the people who have overcapped by now would at least get something.

That's why I'm saying X amount times the number of frames you've subsumed. 

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15 hours ago, EliBug54 said:

> What if I get Strength or Range on my Nova?

You don't have to choose to invigorate.

Yes, but that's now essentially a dead invigoration, and I effectively only got two that week.

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2 minutes ago, MasterControl said:

Yes, but that's now essentially a dead invigoration, and I effectively only got two that week.

Facts. A waste of an invigoration shouldn't be a thing, AND you'd HAVE TO do the invigoration to get one step closer to your 10th freebee.

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Again, late to the party and can't imagine I'm the first on anything, so I'll keep it short.

 

On 2021-06-18 at 4:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Sacrifice Shields to reinforce Armor for a period of time

Nothing benefits from saccing shields, so the question here will be how it compares with Cold Vex Armor.

 

On 2021-06-18 at 4:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Grant yourself immunity to Status effects.

Also, Spellbind and Firewalker exist in helminth.
(Quiver as well, but that's (costs an aug slot and is) much more restrictive to use.)

 

On 2021-06-18 at 4:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Consume Energy to heal yourself and grant matching Energy to each ally.

No effect for Hildryn and Lavos.
Beyond that?
New source of self-healing. Ally energy an interesting-if-probably-not-gamechanging bonus.
That said, might have Garuda replace an EV Trin in stationary farm. Less energy, but no targetting requirement.

 

On 2021-06-18 at 4:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Emit a pulse that adds stacks to Status Effects already afflicting enemies, except Bleed or Toxin effects which are duplicated with fresh timers.

The only status effects that are relevant are:
Slash (MOAR is good).
Vir (1 is crucial, diminishing returns on subsequent, caps at 10), and if you're using this, you've already got how to apply lots of it in a hurry.
Gas (MOAR is good, but caps at 10).
Rad (Only the first stack matters).

If 'Duplicates' means x2, Slash is even more godkiller now (subject to energy) for anything not status immune. Which, need I say it? is a bad thing.
If that's not what it means, I don't grok the statement.

tl;dr - useless ability.

 

On 2021-06-18 at 4:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Send out a short-lived Void Spark that is drawn toward the nearest Medallion, Ayatan Sculpture, unscanned Kuria or unscanned Fragment.

... Huh.
Now this is interesting.
And possibly abuseable.

 

On 2021-06-18 at 4:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

INTRODUCING: INVIGORATIONS

The reward dictates the choices.
The vast majority of the time, if I'm not playing frames, it's because they A) aren't the right answer to (the gamemode that offers) the reward I'm looking for, or B) they are, but another frame is better or more comfortable to use.

Invigorations do nothing for the former, and probably not much for the latter.

 

On 2021-06-18 at 4:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

No.

Okay, but am I credited for having subsumed every single existing frame already?
Because, sure, I have a lot of resources, but I don't think I have 'feed Helmith from R10 to R15' resources.

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2 hours ago, (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

He says it bc this will result in mega toxicity from the player base and the fact your performance in the game relative to others will now be determined by a double layer RNG system. It will also decide if you are included in activities just as not having 200 hydro caps does.

That, and the same mechanic already kinda exists in arbitrations for free. That never made me or any of my squad/clanmates change the choice of frame or weapons to bring.

The weird buffs dont make sense and wont help anything.

Every frame should be on an equal usability/power level to begin with.

What needs to happen is stop making new frames for the sake of it, with some weird 1-trick-gimmick to make a "water frame" while other frames are left in the dust in their sorry state because they didnt age well in the changes over the years. Yareli and hydroid are the ultimate sad example of this. A 300% strenght buff isnt going to make everyone play hydroid for a week, while other frames might completely break game modes by getting a senseless powerbuff like this.

All i see coming are more exploits and nothing fixed in the end.

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On 2021-06-18 at 3:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

I have missed this the first time I read the workshop.. I just want to echo, what most people have already said.
It is mostly punishing the loyal players, who actually interacted with Helminth, and you shouldn't punish loyal players for playing.

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I’ll be honest. I hope you don’t tie the ranks to the new segment because I will never use the invigorations and will genuinely look for a way to turn it off that UI. So much for making helminth better but eh it’s whatever I guess

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1 hour ago, (NSW)IronElemental said:

What needs to happen is stop making new frames for the sake of it, with some weird 1-trick-gimmick to make a "water frame" while other frames are left in the dust in their sorry state because they didnt age well in the changes over the years. Yareli and hydroid are the ultimate sad example of this. A 300% strenght buff isnt going to make everyone play hydroid for a week, while other frames might completely break game modes by getting a senseless powerbuff like this.

Obviously... DE will do anything that can to work around an issue rather than solve it. Guns are a problem.? Rather than go through and change guns, we'll just add mods. 

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So let me get this straight you keep track of dozens of usage stats and game interactions ,but can't figure out what helminth level someone is after hitting rank 10. So 13 Warframe's were subsumed for nothing. Way to stab those that use content when it comes out in the back. How about focusing more on keeping existing players and a little less on the "New player experience". Because if you don't know this already most new players are suggested to this game by current players. If we current players aren't happy we are less likely to recommend your game.

The Invigoration system could be good if you get rid of the RNG aspect and replace it with only allowing invigoration of currently subsumed warframes. Than the buff given could be what is random. Otherwise scrap the whole system ,and just stop nerfing warframes. If you want the players to dust off old frames rework them to be stronger or if they've already been nerfed in the past undo the nerf.

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On 2021-06-18 at 10:56 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

What a slap to the face for the players that already subsumed all the frames...  like ok the xp from feeding not getting into the update, but the xp from the frames after the rank 10 cap going into nothing just like when the relics were introduced lots of players just lost a good portion of their keys that didn't go converted and received 5 relics after a hotfix as a "Sorry we #*!% up, take this 5 relics".
Well not surprising at all that DE is punishing players for playing their game 

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Dear DE.

Invigorations are a system designed to encourage us to play less popular Warframes right?

Instead of giving us a random timed buff to these frames, why not just buff the frames?

There are plenty of frames in the arsenal that could do with a rework to bring them up to date with the powercreep meta you seem to be determined to make a core mechanic of Warframe.

Apart from that, the idea of random buffs to frames fills me with dread. A +200% range or strength Saryn on your team in ESO, what joy! I'll just stand in this corner and do  nothing shall I? And I can't wait to encounter a troll Limbo who's been buffed into the stratosphere, I can't wait to be passed over on an Eidolon hunt because my perfectly capable 6 forma frame built and modded for that exact purpose just happens not to have some completely random RNG controlled buff applied to it.

If RNG is going to be king why did I even bother wasting my time min/maxing that thing?

I love being denied access to content I play on a regular basis because of RNG!

And, I'm not even going to be rewarded for the time and effort that I've put into the game to subsume every single frame in the game in the first place. Nice DE, very nice.

That's every frame, every last one, I even did the God awful RNG laced toxic poison that is the Sevagoth grind twice, and I will never touch void storms again because of that.

As it stands, this entire update is awful, and this thread is full of valid reasons why it is awful. It's on every single page.

Please rethink this update, it will add nothing to the game that isn't already there, the new Helminth abilities are nothing special, most of them already have better subsumed options, and Invigorations should never have left the table.

Is RNG really all you can do? Is it the only balancing mechanic that the staff of Digital Extremes can think of? Is Warframe really that broken that you can't implement something more worthwhile to the player other than "chance"?

Edited by Fl_3
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Instead of waiting 3 or 4 weeks to get our favourite Warframe buffed, one of the three Invigorations, or a fourth one, should be reserved for our most played Warframe.
 

This will give the players who like to “main” a certain frame (Nekros in my case) something to excite them. 

Players tend to stick to a frame because the frame appeals to them in terms of looks or playing mechanics.

No one is going to change up their favourite Warframe just because random frames got some buff this week.

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21 minutes ago, wtflag said:

Instead of waiting 3 or 4 weeks to get our favourite Warframe buffed, one of the three Invigorations, or a fourth one, should be reserved for our most played Warframe.
 

This will give the players who like to “main” a certain frame (Nekros in my case) something to excite them. 

Players tend to stick to a frame because the frame appeals to them in terms of looks or playing mechanics.

No one is going to change up their favourite Warframe just because random frames got some buff this week.

There are people who still have frames they haven't used in literal years stuck in their top spot because they used to be good and the person played them just that much.

Most cases these aren't the types that are going to be saved by a stat buff either, it's something like Ember getting trashed by mechanical changes.

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In my opinion, Invigoration should only offer buffs for consumed warframes. Doesn't make sense for Helminth to be able to buff Frost if I never let him consume it. He needs a taste knowledge of the frame in order to know how to improve it.

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*handsrubbing* shall we begin?

First of all ... why? Why that age restriction on youtube? Most of us are uploading gameplay clips to yt (be thankful, that we are actually uploading free commercial stuff for your company, while not paying us NOR DEDICATED SERVERS FOR ALMOST A DECADE!), and marking them as "not for children" anyways, yet there is no need to use an youtube account to view those clips. Change this. No one is going to register an accout just for your upload.

Most of the new abilities are just trash. Be honest with yourself. Who did the concept and who designed them? No one needs them, as there are many frames (one at least) which does the exact same and is way better than that. Some of them won't even profit from those (e.g. sacrificing shields to gain armor - inaros and such "hello? sup bro? forgotten me?"), others won't bother with them at all.

Golden Instinct could be so much better, instead, its a one-time-profit thing and becomes useless after finding said things. Literally wastes an ability slot for something mediocre without longevity in a mission. Add the rare crates into it, the simaris target (those floating markers are a pain to read, like your waypointer, for years!), and the stuff people already mentioned. Not going to beat the dead horse, as you won't listen anyways.

Lets get to the backstabbing part of this idea:

On 2021-06-18 at 3:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Helminth Workshop FAQ: 

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap.
 

Seriously? Are you really incapable of running a simple json SQL query to retrieve used/subsumes frames on the account and grand those literally wasted helminth XP after inserting the module? Is this really this hard for you guys? An IF-condition with an UPDATE-statement afterwards, when requirements met. If this is really the thing, hire some capable employees for this, as you have the money for it, we all know that. Most of us vets have had already subsumes most if not all frames already (me including to the worse one), and you are just literally saying "go waste your resources, force waste your resources, you have no rights to hold on them anymore".

Secondly, most of us were asking for a vote-4-kick option for years. But nah, DE and most toxic fanatics were like "ABUSE! THEY WILL ABUSE IIIIITTTT" - calm down. I got insulted and made a joke of asking for this feature, like many others probably, too. And now, I am thinking like "this is how vote-4-kick 2.0 looks like? not being invited in the first instance - a prevention is better than a cure afterwards?", I guess you are getting my sarcasm.

We are getting a way worse "option" to leave players behind, because someone of your concept/dev-team thought, lets make some RNG powercreep, because we won't make the buggers to rework all the frames, which have being not touched ever since their release. No, instead, we do a bandaid nerf/buff, like the melee and primary/secondary stuff, with a very bad ratio: nerfing melee by 200%, buffing firearms by 25-50%-ish. Totally justified! Way to go, DE. Way to go.

You know, we are the playerbase, if we are not applicable to your "new-tenno-experience" (new players joining to this game), just say it outright. At the end, we are the ones recommending your game to others, as you are not doing any kind of commercial stuff, as this is too expensive for your guts, I imagine. I've never saw an ad of you guys running in television/internet or whatever in 3 different countries. You don't want to satisfy the longtime players (us vets) and literally backstabbing into and onto our progression (subsume progression for instance) and yet doing stuff like this already ahead of its time. Soon or sooner we will leave, who else will stay? The beginners? I doubt so.

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Are dev workshops just announcements now? Not a troll question, I really want to know if any feedback is being considered before launch. It appears not because of the timing with tennocon, and the now obvious simultaneous announcement?

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3 hours ago, Daiwulf said:

In my opinion, Invigoration should only offer buffs for consumed warframes. Doesn't make sense for Helminth to be able to buff Frost if I never let him consume it. He needs a taste knowledge of the frame in order to know how to improve it.

If you skim through this thread, you'll find a bunch of people worrying about elitism surrounding Eidolons and other content. Approaching the buffing system like this would increase such elitism as you could just only subsume 3 frames, and guarantee your invigoration rolls.

As for it not making sense, we have a Valkyr Prime with exactly the same abilities, and we're probably getting a Nidus Prime next. Lore consistency is really not DE's strong point.

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On 2021-06-18 at 2:34 PM, RingoDesu said:

Really need to have a script to calculate the accumulated rank that existing rank 10 players had by subsuming.

Nah, easier to give everyone a legendary core as a "we're sorry". just watch, i bet this will happen and that it'll be announced on the next devstream if update ain't out before then.

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Hmm.. Maybe instead of 3 random warframes invigorations should offer you 1 out of 3 random sets of buffs for currently equipped one?
And maaaaaybe you should not make the buff values so ridiculous?

The idea itself seems interesting to me.

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