Helminth Grows a New Appetite: 30.5 Update!

[ZenHare]

7 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

  Exactly

 

 

Isn't it a weird idea to let people play things they enjoy and have fun doing so? I wonder if anyone had brought this idea to DE.

[Radu10]

Just now, ZenHare said:

Isn't it a weird idea to let people play things they enjoy and have fun doing so? I wonder if anyone had brought this idea to DE.

I also want those frames being useful and meta with all the others with they pro and cons, but I am sorry DE this is the wrong approach to the issue!
Only serious way is a well thought rework...

Speaking of invigorations turn them into a stable passive way to boost frames even more, with a point system like intrinsics, maybe make each frame "upgradable" and each with unique upgrade choices and u can select and interchange 3 specific buffs (like runes work in Doom Eternal for example), is up to players unlock each different one, unlock the 3 slots and eventually spending time with their helminth friend, give more variety to building thanks to them, and together with frame reworks make them actually usable.

There are so potentially good ideas, if you DE staff would look at all the comments, and focus mostly on those made by players who actually care about game experience in its entirety.

My suggestion is to go back to the drawing table. Being so close to warframe rivens, will surely harm the game more than everything.

[(XBOX)KawaiiAsa]

10 minutes ago, Radu10 said:

Speaking of invigorations turn them into a stable passive way to boost frames even more, with a point system like intrinsics, maybe make each frame "upgradable" and each with unique upgrade choices and u can select and interchange 3 specific buffs (like runes work in Doom Eternal for example), is up to players unlock each different one, unlock the 3 slots and eventually spending time with their helminth friend, give more variety to building thanks to them, and together with frame reworks make them actually usable.

but what would these upgrades be? because if they are just 'extensions' to an ability, like giving it an extra effect, then I'd rather these upgrades just be augment mods instead and I think most others would. And if they are permanent stat increases (eg: +10% ability strength, +100 health), then recruiting for specific things would get even worse since people would just say "well they are permanent, so there's no reason for someone to not have them" and cause it to be even harder to join a squad to do missions with.
Additionally if these are stat increases, then they would have to be unique for each warframe and with the current meta in mind, and thus be constantly updated and changed to suit the builds currently being used with each frame, since people who use a speed nova build may not exactly enjoy having +strength buffs filling up the buff options or being forced to have + strength since slow nova's are the most popular build. This could make people feel like they are being forced to play their favourite frame in a way they don't enjoy and thus stop using them, or completely discourage certain builds like Speed Nova, due to this buff system most likely not offering stat decreases.

[Radu10]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)KawaiiAsa said:

but what would these upgrades be? because if they are just 'extensions' to an ability, like giving it an extra effect, then I'd rather these upgrades just be augment mods instead and I think most others would. And if they are permanent stat increases (eg: +10% ability strength, +100 health), then recruiting for specific things would get even worse since people would just say "well they are permanent, so there's no reason for someone to not have them" and cause it to be even harder to join a squad to do missions with.
Additionally if these are stat increases, then they would have to be unique for each warframe and with the current meta in mind, and thus be constantly updated and changed to suit the builds currently being used with each frame, since people who use a speed nova build may not exactly enjoy having +strength buffs filling up the buff options or being forced to have + strength since slow nova's are the most popular build. This could make people feel like they are being forced to play their favourite frame in a way they don't enjoy and thus stop using them, or completely discourage certain builds like Speed Nova, due to this buff system most likely not offering stat decreases.

Frames themselves like I stated needs a rework to begin with (one frame reworked every 3 months for example), those upgrades even increasing stats by a 10% would be better than a 200% buff, I would also add defensive upgrades and utility:
like higher "vacuum stat", more energy/health gain from one orb, more ammo drops, more movement/parkour speed, convert part of shields in more health or other way around, higher enemy/loot radar, adding new specific map icons for rare caches/kuria/containers (even be able see lockers would be great.

If DE would decide going that way I am sure we would see even better ideas and suggestions, nobody here wants break the game even more than already is, DE's doing it this time!

[Lancars]

@LutesqueBuzz: You're mocking me, aren't you?

In all seriousness though, I really like how you explained it perfectly. "Selling Medicine by Poisoning The Water Supply" I'm keeping that.

[DroopingPuppy]

8 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

False dichotomy.

I can debunk doomsaying regardless of whether or not I think the system is overall a good idea.

 

And you will fail. New ones always has some suspicious, and it is natural for have some doomsaying. You cannot against the hail of reality.

[(PSN)MyzTheStranger]

Invigorations are a joke right? Because that would make Warframe a total joke. Make the strong frames stronger and everyone who isn't lucky enough to get an op buff for an op frame just left in the dirt. Rip all leaderboards, builds no longer matter, and any sort of competitive side left in Warframe just gone forever. I sincerely hope this is thrown out permanently.

[(XBOX)Vamma Takayn]

On 2021-06-18 at 9:43 AM, arkadikos213 said:

hmm... How about buffing expedite suffering? Only i remember that ability?

 

The expansion looks great looking towards this.

Expedited suffering has always sucked and been partially useful of Garuda. And it's for the simple reason that expedited suffering deals 0 for really all status procs except slash, toxin, and heat.

For example: https://youtu.be/SSRBvhMik2g

[(NSW)Lolo]

INVIGORATIONS wont motivate people to use those unpopular frame, rework does. 
after last year 6 frames skill "rework", where is the next step ?

[Arthegall]

DE said a while ago that they were looking to freshen up older frames and did a workshop with small updates to atlas, ash, necros and a few others. We haven’t seen anything on that since. Instead we see this “invigoration” system. Truly difficult for me to not think DE just said “hey you know it's going to take a lot of man hours to make old frames fun and up to date. How about we just have this invigoration system instead. People will potentially play these older frames and maybe spend money on their cosmetics and we don’t have to do all that work of making older frames fun and updated" 

[(PSN)RuTweN]

1 hour ago, Arthegall said:

DE said a while ago that they were looking to freshen up older frames and did a workshop with small updates to atlas, ash, necros and a few others. We haven’t seen anything on that since. Instead we see this “invigoration” system. Truly difficult for me to not think DE just said “hey you know it's going to take a lot of man hours to make old frames fun and up to date. How about we just have this invigoration system instead. People will potentially play these older frames and maybe spend money on their cosmetics and we don’t have to do all that work of making older frames fun and updated" 

More like “ it will make a lot of money”….people will buy wf slots and whale s the frames just to be able invigorate to reach the 10th invigoration faster.

You can’t believe that the same people that designed the base game are so dumb to not realize that numbers are not able to save badly designed abilities or that it will become a mandatory feature once implemented

If this thing sees the light of day i won’t be surprised to get a feature to reroll the invigoration for 50p marking the end of warframe as we know it

[BlackAce]

On 2021-06-18 at 8:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap. 

So that means those that already subsumed all of the currently available Warframes will take significantly more time to get our Helminth to rank 15 since those XP pool aren't available to us anymore.

It's just a joke right?

[(NSW)AlbaDicentra]

All the players talking about how people are going to require certain buffs from invigoration sound privileged as heck, over on Switch getting a squad together ain’t that easy let alone making demands for buffs, have fun playing solo. I really don’t see that being an issue, I think invigoration are a terrible idea but I don’t think players are going to start demanding certain buffs, at least not at the rate people are saying it will be.

[FepoCg]

Honestly I don't mind about the random weekly buff you would get for warframes, you didn't had that before so now if in one week I don't see my favorite frame I will just move on, that being said, what really bothers me is why they are punishing early adopters of the system, already subsumed all the warframes you were able to, so now I would just have to add and remove random habilities to level up? and wasting tons resources?  WHY?  JUST   WHY???

I really hope is just a mean joke, I do love the game, I really do but is getting really hard to even try to defend DE, it seems with each update they just like to punish the people that actually play the game, making things too easy at times or breaking the game in others with lots of nerfs, like giving people the chance to BUY Railjack and not doing the quest lol, or literally butchering melee. 

I have 5489 hours of gameplay and MR30 in less than 2 YEARS,  that means that none stop I been playing this for two years since I found it on steam, I always try to defend DE when people attacks them but enough is enough, 56+ pages of feedback about the arsenal thing and they didn't address any of the problems, I don't even understand why we have a forum if they just ignore the feedback.

[Mixnek]

Will we be getting a Public test cluster before release? 

 

[jnuh]

can we please just have the ability to put 2 abilities onto 1 frame, instead of 1? personally, i don't really care about ranks 11-15 or the invigorations.

[toudy49]

Le 18/06/2021 à 21:10, --RV--Hyenah a dit :

Give Nyx or Frost a 300% power strenght and 300 extra energy invigoration.

They are still not good warframes you should use over any other warframe due to their poorly aged kit with no valuable use cases.

Warframes do not need RNG based weekly buffs, they need tweaks and/or reworks.

Please do not release invigorations into the game, ever. They sound like a planetary sized bandaid that nobody asked for for a problem that you have succesfully fixed in the past with frames like Nekros, Zephyr, and every other warframe you have reworked into a useful and fun warframe to use.

frost with 300%PS destroy armor   (soo imagine if you can do a280range with mod and don't have to use blind rage, ect ... to achieve it) , as do a 400%ps hildryn (and 400% is achievable with less than 100% added at what moding do) ...

trinity  with 400%ps to giver her EV kill on use ...

nyx  's 4 under that buff is no one can kill me ...

 

some aged kit where carefully designed to not be a kill switch ... and just a 100% strengh gain will ruin balance , but sure it's outadated by more recent more powerfull and fun frame....

on other hand it's useless on some frame who are not here to do a single damage (i see you loki) XD

 

 

any buff on abillity should effectivly be ban even efficiency ...

[ShogunGunshow]

9 hours ago, (NSW)Lolo said:

INVIGORATIONS wont motivate people to use those unpopular frame, rework does. 
after last year 6 frames skill "rework", where is the next step ?

They put in Helminth at least in part to stop doing reworks. Your frame sucks? Give it something good!

Of course, what really ends up happening is that people choose good frames to begin with, and then make them even better. 

[Kilo24]

I think the Invigorations system is not going to achieve its goal of encouraging interest in underused frames.  Spending resources to temporarily buff frames you're not interested in in the first place is a hard sell, and these boosts will likely benefit fully ranked/forma-ed frames more strongly than underplayed ones.  Powers need a high rank warframe to be useful, and while the weapon buffs are less warframe-dependent they also don't do all that much to sell the player on the warframe itself instead of the buff.

Moreover, the sheer power of the buffs being thrown around is not trivial.  It's like a riven mod for warframes that - instead of doing the work of perhaps 2 or 3 mods and costing ~1.5 times as a normal mod does in capacity - does around 7-8 without any capacity or slot cost, is randomly acquired, and vanishes after a week.  It's even a big enough boost that it might turn the warframe du jour into an interchangeable buff vessel, with a helminth ability and warframe-agnostic build slapped on it to take advantage of the buff.  The sheer power being thrown around here overwhelms much of the other systems in the game, and does so based on luck and a limited duration.  It will turn the meta of any mode it's part of into a matter of luck and grinding out 10th-infusion choices, and in doing so would significantly reduce the appeal of attaining what would be a meta build without this system. 

Now, what might be an interesting alternative is some system that targets experimenting and leveling up underused frames specifically, and has little effect on the power level of frames that the player has already heavily invested in.  If infusion instead applied a temporary removal of the mod capacity limits on the infused frame, that would let a player freely experiment with the frame without expending forma but not be a major benefit to a frame that you've already maxed out.  There could also be other benefits to encourage leveling, like that frame earning double affinity, or having the first forma you apply to it be free, or making any further helminth ability switches free.  You could also receive a significant boost in a mode that's already designed for such boosts: say, arbitrations would always give their +power benefits to an infused frame, and/or void fissures would always give the reactant buff to the frame in addition to a random weapon.  That would encourage players to try underused frames, but have a limited effect on others.

[Maka.Bones]

On 2021-06-22 at 2:02 PM, quxier said:

I mean Devstreams about various things in youtube that are +18 (hence adult movies).

oh lmfao... no Trinity didn't get nerfed or anything, that I'm aware of. I just meant in the sense that "energy vampire" is one of the few things which makes Trinity unique and still useful in much content. This new "heal + energy restore" ability might push her even more into the "irrelevant/outdated" space. But that might also result in the devs deciding to revamp Trinity.  

 

On 2021-06-22 at 2:02 PM, quxier said:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Pool_of_Life

Oh huh I didn't know about this. Though that's RNG based, and it's not inherent to the ability. It would take an entire mod slot just for an RNG chance at getting energy, so it's not exactly an "energy restore" ability. Meaning that protea has the only true energy restore ability in the helminth, and this new ability would be the second option. So it actually is something new in regards to the helminth, and it's also functional/usable standalone. (meaning it doesn't need some special conditions to do a thing)
 

On 2021-06-22 at 2:02 PM, quxier said:

What about user that don't min-max?

(for TLDR, read the bold)
Then they might not be using this ability in the first place (I don't min-max either). This ability would be most valued by people who like to see the "number pron" in warframe.... ppl who like to see how silly things can get... those people are inherently min-maxers by trade. 

- People who don't min-max aren't generally gonna be worried about getting more status procs, to the output that might actually make this ability useful... otherwise they would already be min-maxing, or they could just mod their weapon for more status procs. (considering mods would be a much more time efficient/cost-effective method of getting close to the same output of what this ability does) 

- A non-minmaxer wouldn't generally be worried about getting extra viral procs on saryn/ember. They might not even mess with the helminth system for the most part (if they did use it, it's probably just used on a handful of warframes) 

Not to mention that unless they're purely completitionists (or just had a lot of time to kill and loved grinding in warframe), they might not even have the helminth maxed out yet... let alone get it to lvl 13-15 (though they might try to reach 15, if that golden fart ability makes it easier to farm ayatan statues... which translates to endo/plat)

I didn't even start using the helminth system until recently, and I'm deffo not close to lvl 10 lol

[sunderthefirmament]

Pumped for Hideous Resistance!  It could be a good stopgap for Primed Sure Footed, depending on numbers (duration, cast time, cost, etc.).

[Maka.Bones]

32 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Pumped for Hideous Resistance!  It could be a good stopgap for Primed Sure Footed, depending on numbers (duration, cast time, cost, etc.).

You'd really give up an entire ability slot just to be immune to status? Not to mention that you'd also need to level the helminth to Lv12 for this. Why would you give up an ability slot, when there are other mod options which can already do this, aside from P. surefooted? (Rolling guard is the first which comes to mind). 

There are also other helminth subsumed abilities which do more than just make you immune to status:

•  Titania's spellbind which already gives status immunity to you or you allies, can also disarm enemies, and it's fairly cheap to cast (only issue might be that it doesn't have super long duration, but neither will the new ability unless you already mod for duration, or unless it's a low-cost "toggle" which I doubt).
   
• Hildryn also gives a helminth ability which either cleanses or gives status immunity (not sure about Hildryn since I don't play her)
   
• Nezha's firewalk makes you immune to status, as well as providing good map control/aoe DPS, doesn't cost much energy, has good duration, and practically no cast time. 
   
• Ivara's cloak arrow can make you & allies immune to status as well, but requires the augment (so cloak arrow would take a mod slot, and maybe you wouldn't want to use up a mod slot)

 

[sunderthefirmament]

54 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

You'd really give up an entire ability slot just to be immune to status? Not to mention that you'd also need to level the helminth to Lv12 for this. Why would you give up an ability slot, when there are other mod options which can already do this, aside from P. surefooted? (Rolling guard is the first which comes to mind). 

There are also other helminth subsumed abilities which do more than just make you immune to status:

•  Titania's spellbind which already gives status immunity to you or you allies, can also disarm enemies, and it's fairly cheap to cast (only issue might be that it doesn't have super long duration, but neither will the new ability unless you already mod for duration, or unless it's a low-cost "toggle" which I doubt).
   
• Hildryn also gives a helminth ability which either cleanses or gives status immunity (not sure about Hildryn since I don't play her)
   
• Nezha's firewalk makes you immune to status, as well as providing good map control/aoe DPS, doesn't cost much energy, has good duration, and practically no cast time. 
   
• Ivara's cloak arrow can make you & allies immune to status as well, but requires the augment (so cloak arrow would take a mod slot, and maybe you wouldn't want to use up a mod slot)

 

Yep!  Most of the Helminth abilities (from frames and from the mouth itself) require a significant investment in power strength.  This could be a really good ability if it doesn't.  I'm thinking about using it on my Maim (neg. strength) Equinox, as I don't want to give up my exilus for PSF when I rely on Cunning Drift to get every last bit of range I can.  I might also use it on Xaku and Ivara, though I do invest in strength in both of them.

 

Nezha's firewalker is unreliable for me due to me not actively standing in the flames most of the time.  Hildryn's pillage is fantastic, but it doesn't make you immune to status.  It's a cleanse.  Cloak arrow is great and all, but I don't often bother with its augment.  Spellbind is probably the best for my purposes, but it's a little clunky with the hold mechanic.  It's not as fast as I'd like.  I'm hoping Hideous Resistance is an instant cast, like Molt or Infested Mobility.

 

I'm not going to use Hideous Resistance on a ton of frames even if it's good.  But it's nice to have more options available.

[ZenHare]

After thinking about it, I don't think players are going to get rejected based on the frame of the week. Some of the buffs may not translate into a big difference in game. What people will get rejected over is, "Do you have your galvanized mods?" If they work like CO, there is going to be a huge gulf between weapons with those mods and without.

[Maka.Bones]

8 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Yep!  Most of the Helminth abilities (from frames and from the mouth itself) require a significant investment in power strength.  This could be a really good ability if it doesn't.  I'm thinking about using it on my Maim (neg. strength) Equinox, as I don't want to give up my exilus for PSF when I rely on Cunning Drift to get every last bit of range I can.  I might also use it on Xaku and Ivara, though I do invest in strength in both of them.

 

Nezha's firewalker is unreliable for me due to me not actively standing in the flames most of the time.  Hildryn's pillage is fantastic, but it doesn't make you immune to status.  It's a cleanse.  Cloak arrow is great and all, but I don't often bother with its augment.  Spellbind is probably the best for my purposes, but it's a little clunky with the hold mechanic.  It's not as fast as I'd like.  I'm hoping Hideous Resistance is an instant cast, like Molt or Infested Mobility.

 

I'm not going to use Hideous Resistance on a ton of frames even if it's good.  But it's nice to have more options available.

Spellbind, and arrow quiver, don't take any investment in power strength. Why would you want it on ivara though? that's pretty much a waste, same for xaku. And if you'd be willing to use prime surefooted, I wouldn't know why you wouldn't want to "bother" with Ivara's augment. 

I mean, if you really find use for it then i'm happy for you.... but I still think it's an entire waste of an ability slot. Honestly If there are people like you who think that ONLY status immunity as an ability is worth even investing 13 helminth levels into--let alone actually using up an ability slot--then DE is seriously failing in many different places. I'm not someone who just habitually talks crap about DE, so it's not like I'm saying this just because I wanna crap on them. I constantly praise them, and you could see it in some of my recent feedback so I'm honestly not saying this just to bash on them. Though I'm also not gonna just say that everything they do is amazing, if there's clearly need for improvement. So if redundant/incomplete abilities like these really seem useful to people out there, then I'm also genuinely am seeing a lot of things wrong with this situation. 

I also have a feeling that it's just gonna be something that might sound good for you now, but never actually sees practical use once you've gotten it. Unless they make it essentially last the entire mission or something, it's gonna be a lot of work to constantly need to spam something through a mish if it's only to avoid KDs. Even if it was for the orb mother fights, it's still a lot to keep track of. You might even end up finding something else that works better for you due to this inconvenience (whether it already exists or DE will introduce it in the future)

Also, status immunity doesn't make you immune to all knockdowns/staggers. You might still get kd'd/staggered from object collision or some enemy attacks. It will work against blast, and impact, that's it. I know because I play Titania a lot, and I still need P. Sure Footed on her.