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Helminth Grows a New Appetite: 30.5 Update!


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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Adding 5 more Ranks and 5 new ‘Helminth’ Abilities

I really hope people who are already on rank 10 don't have to start again from rank 10. Because speaking on behalf of old players, even after it was rank 10 we've already fed multiple warframes to the helminth with no xp gained since we were alr at max rank, the xp we could have got should be added I recon. 

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I have doubts that invigorations will lead to a world where people "require" them like so many people seem to think will happen, what content in this game has that much organization? Maybe if raids actually make a comeback, or there was a reason to actually care about eidolons again, but until then, that seems unlikely.

That said, I still think they're a terrible idea. Why give up permanent resources for a temporary random buff, even if it's something that's nearly perfect, I'll just have a horrible feelsbad when the week long buff is over, not to mention often it encouraging me to rework my build... for a week? I'm not going to forma something differently for a week's worth of use, invigorations just seem like a terrible, non-progression making tease.

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i'm kinda dissapointed with this updates the new ranks are a good idea but why this weekly invigorations thinks when i heard change to the helminth system, i was yes maybe now we can infused two skill on one warframe or we can have 2 subsuming ability by warframe and you can choose wich one you want, i really would love to have the cloud of wukong or the clones, i can imagine a mirage prime doing a doppleganger and then using his mirage clone all together and even finish it with the hall of mirrors of gara who suit better mirage than gara i think especially because i love mirage but i dont like his abilities exept for the first one, my goal is not to make the better warframe, i know some meta exist already but i love the idea to do anything with every warframe, beside there is a bonus to this 

you do invigorations to push us to play other warframe, but make more ability repleacable can push us in this way more than the invigoration system , like you love equinox for its design,  but you just use one of his abilities, the other you cant or want use it, and for you nezha prime as more interrest in survivability , put the ability of nezha you love in equinox and you've got a pretty reliable warframe 

but beside this the update is wonderfull, great work but please considere this option i just want the helminth system to be better

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OMFG finally some of the good stuff, whoever came up with these needs a raise! both the invigorations and the QOL additions to helminth. 
I just hope the stats don't just suck right off the bat on these (eg. GOLDEN INSTINCT limited to something dumb like a 25m radius- low range only viable if ability can be channeled with trigger when in range, else its not better than any basic limbo/xaku box breaker builds, also sabotage cache locker not included 😢, or PARASITIC ARMOR  with 2:1 shield for armor conversion- needs to be better than Defy which also gives invuln time to see any use, HIDEOUS RESISTANCE with 2-3 sec duration -needs to be better than Spellbind (16 sec), btw Hearty Nourishment is still broken to this day for some reason🤣, etc.)

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Really need to have a script to calculate the accumulated rank that existing rank 10 players had by subsuming.
When I first reached rank 10, I only subsumed less than 20 frames, but now I am have all of them. There is just no where else I can redo it and gain it again.

I can understand that early investment into the game could be some sort of the 'Sunk Cost', but I can TOTOALLY NOT accept any situation (in a game) that the more I invest earlier, the harder it becomes when new rank comes out: when rank 10-15 released, newer player might get smoother experience from rank 0-10 than any older players(that's normal), but it shouldn't be that from rank 10- rank 15, older players have more disadvantages.

Edited by RingoDesu
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What is the opposite of customization and individualization of a warframe, through helminth, as the post advertises?

Asking you to play random frames for temporary bonuses. The opposite of custom what be random, right? Are you adding customization by having people play random frames?

Conceptually, that's nonsense and also sad to see arbitration mode being copy-pasted on top. Yes, it already didn't work last time.

 

I brought the "dictated frame" into arbitration a total of exactly zero times, because I like what I like and I want to do what I enjoy. Isn't that what the whole post says the helminth system was made for? Deep customization? What? Huh?

 

"GOLDEN INSTINCT" I imagine some people might actually use though at this point, professional farmers already memorize every corner of the maps and possible spawnpoints, blowing up containers with limbo and animal instinct.

I am not sure it adds anything to the gameplay. Maybe for new players? Of course gated behind 15 levels of helminth they will have beat the game by then, so I am just not feeling any of it.

 

With guns, liches, parazon and railjack being in the works now, I did not expect to see a helminth grind that adds more armor or restores energy to other frames. Not the approach I would have gone with.

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The invigoration system is flat out a bad idea. You have always been consistent on not wanting to add warframe rivens (something I 100% agree with), and now you are adding a system that basically gives us temporary warframe rivens.

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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

INTRODUCING: INVIGORATIONS

Unlike the popular opinión i like the idea of invigorations, it'll let me use my non properly nodded frames sitting in dust. 

But here's the thing, 1 week is too much, suppose I get saryn 100% ability strength then it'll make her overpowered for an entire week, or if valkyr +1000 armour will make her tanky af for entire week and while it may not seem like it, a week is a bit long for such powerful buffs, yes, the buffs will make the frames more interesting to play but the time period is too long, let the invigorations shuffle for 3 frames last a week, but buff should wear out in idk maybe 2-3 days. 

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29 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

You then have 46*45*44 frame choices, or 91080 different frame groups.  Remember that this is dependent upon the buffs...so today you've got 2459160 potential frame-buff possible combinations.  Oh joy.

You want combination, not permutations. 47 frames (including Yareli as she'll be released with this) means nCr = 16,215 combinations, as opposed to nPr(47,3) = 97,290 permutations.

29 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Let' assume that the different buff types only have 3 permutations each....which means that on any given week, assuming that prime and non-prime frames get the buff, you have 3*3*3 or 27 potential buff combinations.

Dev video only showed 2 buffs per frame. Where are you getting 3 buffs per frame?

I don't like the idea of Invigorations either, but keep your speculations a bit more accurate.

Edited by (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom
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Nice, looking forward to Invigorations. It'll be a nice RNG wrench into the meta, rewarding players with diverse arsenals. I'm in favour of everything that dislodges any established "meta", even seasonal shake-ups.

2 hours ago, 16Bitman said:

Instead of pushing us to play Warframes we don't like, players will instead demand +200% power strength buffs for certain activities.

Farming Harrow? Better have a 300% Power Strength +200% Helminth Power Strength Wisp on you or you're not invited!

The top frames will be just as strong as before. Think of it as a chance for almost-usable frames to finally see periodic use.

2 hours ago, Andy. said:

And if we are looking forward to future events, this will cause alot of trouble because the best starts might only be possible one week and the not anymore...

Fair point, but easy fix: Make Invigorations not work in operations.

2 hours ago, (PSN)TONI__RIBEIRO said:

Not good sorry.

Just make the frames good instead.

Also fair point, but I think we all know by now that they lack the resource to apparently do this. I think some players will interact with this system and others won't.

 

People seem to be frothing at the thought of the insane buffs, but get rekt by the RNG. This is gonna come down to a demographic issue. Let's see how it plays out, but it should be healthy for the game overall.

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3 hours ago, 16Bitman said:

Is there a system to track our current Helminth experience points, or will we all have to "start" at Rank 10?

The best way to rank Helminth was subsuming Warframes, but that is no longer an option for me.

 

Edit:

"INVIGORATIONS"

Are pretty horrible.

Instead of pushing us to play Warframes we don't like, players will instead demand +200% power strength buffs for certain activities.

Farming Harrow? Better have a 300% Power Strength +200% Helminth Power Strength Wisp on you or you're not invited!

 

We will also have to really carefully use our 10+ buff of choice for events, if you use it on the wrong Warframe, you will be at a severe disadvantage to make it big on the leaderboards.

 

This system just leads to severe power creep or player exclusion you can't fix by farming the right gear, I don't think it should be added at all.

 

Edit 2:

Short ability review:
 

If you're interested in armor, you already won't be interested in your shields, so I currently don't see a downside to this ability.

Also kind of boring, if you want more armor, you already have "Defy", "Elemental Ward" and "Warcry", if this isn't better than the best one, why would I bother infusing it?

 

So is this just the self cast effect of "Spellbind" ? I can see a use for this it it has a much longer duration and shorter cast speed, but I personally don't think this adds anything to the game we didn't have before.

Edit: There's also Firewalker which adds a variety of benefits in addition to status immunity + status cleanse.
 

This looks entirely new, it depends on cast speed and/or cost, but an ability to instantly restore energy for others for every Warframe sounds good so far.
 

The usefulness of this ablity depends on how many stacks you get on cast, is it multiplicative or static? I think I'd rather just inflict more status with whatever caused it in the first place, but it might be good to have in a team setting.
 

This sounds good, but I don't think I'd ditch greedy pull for this.

Don't make it too short lived either please.

What others have already said, but I'll reiterate.

Add Rare Crates, Reinforced Crates and Sabotage Caches to this ability, make it clear if the ability has nothing to detect.

Dont we have Spellbind as a subsumable ability? That means the immunity to status effects is pointless as we can just imbue Spellbind and get the immunity as well as an additional CC.

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9 minutes ago, (PSN)FakeLeader2345 said:

Dont we have Spellbind as a subsumable ability? That means the immunity to status effects is pointless as we can just imbue Spellbind and get the immunity as well as an additional CC

Not everyone may have Titania unlocked right away. 

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2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Do we really need this by #15 in Helminth, though? I'm pretty sure we can all slot Loot Radar and notice map icons (and boxes not disappearing).

 

Add more to this: Rare Crates (finally we could know), Caches (sabotage etc), other Lore pieces like the Plains fish/Vallis memories as this fits with Kuria.

Say that to openworlds treasures, such as somachords, fishes in PoE.

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I spent a lot more time saying "what to do next?" before Nightwave, it eventually sends me on missions I need drops from while rewarding me on top of it so I like that system a lot. I assume the random nature of which Warframe is being Invigorated is to incentivize use of more of our arsenals, similar to the buff to random frames in Arbitrations. Since I normally play the same few frames (dictated mostly by mission type) I like the idea.

However, I feel like getting to choose our favorite Warframe every 10 weeks (2.5 months) is a really long wait, Baro's bi-weekly visit already feels like a long time to me.

The impression I get is that the number of players that are doing the elite level optimizations of several tridolon runs a night or hours of steel path endless are a small percentage of the community, but equally that the meta they use is considered gospel and all other opinions are heresy. If they end up hating the system or feeling like it's required for highest level play I would expect a lot of push back from the randomness.

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3 hours ago, SephirothWS said:

Remove the randomness from INVIGORATIONS and the system would be perfect.

No. No it would not.

The last thing we need is to give a constant Helminth buff to Saryn, Mesa, or any other nuke frame. It's bad enough they can have an entire week to be more broken than they already are at random with this new system.

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Arbitrations uses a similar system to invigoration that originally promoted this idea which provides a 300% power and weapon damage buff with the same intention of promoting players to try new warframes based on the random buffs rotated in. I play Arbis often and Not once have I purposely chosen the warframe for the buffs offered.  If the one rotated in happened to be the warframe I wanted to play with then sure. Often I play the warframe I want to play regardless of the 300% buff offered I could benefit from if I decided to play with the frame in rotation.

 

With this I wonder if the arbi buff will stack with the helminth buff??

Edited by EdDiesel
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invigorations rotation is pure madness for someone who enjoys to play 1-3 frames to tell us to wait 10 weeks to chose one of 3 you are being unconsiderate DE also this system gives of (classic wow "world buffs" vibe) ppl that wont have invigorated buffs will be excluded from groups that will demand having them active on specific frames  (eidolons especially and such), just don't do it. Just give us agument slot instead with this system, and start slow and steady reworking older warframes.

Edited by moonfallen
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Give Nyx or Frost a 300% power strenght and 300 extra energy invigoration.

They are still not good warframes you should use over any other warframe due to their poorly aged kit with no valuable use cases.

Warframes do not need RNG based weekly buffs, they need tweaks and/or reworks.

Please do not release invigorations into the game, ever. They sound like a planetary sized bandaid that nobody asked for for a problem that you have succesfully fixed in the past with frames like Nekros, Zephyr, and every other warframe you have reworked into a useful and fun warframe to use.

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Alright, this one looks better than the Parazon workshop. First, the abilities:
 

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

PARASITIC ARMOR (11)

Sacrifice Shields to reinforce Armor for a period of time

Honestly sounds alright depending on the numbers, but may need someone to revise its usability versus Defy and versus how much damage enemies actually deal, armor notwithstanding.

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

HIDEOUS RESISTANCE (12)

Grant yourself immunity to Status effects.

Hello there, Spellbind 2. Are you better than the original? And why are you much better than Grendel's latest augment?

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

VORACIOUS METASTASIS (13)

Consume Energy to heal yourself and grant matching Energy to each ally.

Gonna need numbers, but this at least sounds like a good enough gimmick. How does it interact with Lavos and Hildryn?

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

SICKENING PULSE (14)

Emit a pulse that adds stacks to Status Effects already afflicting enemies, except Bleed or Toxin effects which are duplicated with fresh timers.

Better cost 25 energy, have decent numbers and a great cast speed, cause otherwise the original source of the status effects will do the same thing more practically and without an energy cost.

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

GOLDEN INSTINCT (15)

Send out a short-lived Void Spark that is drawn toward the nearest Medallion, Ayatan Sculpture, unscanned Kuria or unscanned Fragment.

As someone else in the thread has mentioned, adding rare crates and caches and clera indication of nothing it detects being in range would make this an actually good tool. And, once again, numbers. Please give it decent duration and range. And just make it look like Iso Vaults' generator trail so it's very visible even in the middle of the particle party that is Warframe.

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

INTRODUCING: INVIGORATIONS

Now that... I don't really have much of an idea of how it'll play out, other than randomly making endurance farmers and people who like playing with Void fissure buffs on their Warframes very happy with more numbers. All I can say at the moment is that I hope this is actively looked into by the dev team for a couple months, instead of being left as-is after a few weeks like the rest of the Helminth system.

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For the record folks, it isn't a 10 week wait to choose your frame to invigorate. You get to choose after 10 invigorations, but you get three warframes to invigorate each week. So if you have every frame, it's once every 3-4 weeks.

*EDIT* Unless the video they posted says otherwise, because I'm judging by the original post. I haven't watched the vid.

Edited by Perisie
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5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Every week, your Helminth will have an Affinity toward 3 Random Warframes. You can interact with Helminth with these Warframes to gain select Weekly Buffs (one Offensive and one Utility/Defense)! For example:

Zephyr: 200% Power Strength and Immune To Status
Atlas: 200% Primary Critical Chance and +1000 Armor
Excalibur: 250% Melee Damage and 75% power Efficiency

These will be drawn randomly per player. Tenno can check their Helminth during the Weekly reset to see what Invigorations are available for the week. Once you infuse the Invigoration, it lasts the week before the power of the Helminth wears off. 

To give players some control over what will be very powerful buffs, the Helminth takes note of your interactions - for every 10 Invigorations you do, you’ll be able to Select what Warframe receives the next buff! 

As of now, the Segment will cost 30,000 Entrati Standing and will be available once you hit the rank of Family. Get your Family tokens ready, Tenno! 

The rest seemed fine overall, so going to ignore that for now.
But this part just seems like it ain't it.
It just looks like a workaround to get people to play bad frames instead of just taking the time to rework and buff them.
And it will fail, because it's just flat numbers again. Arguably if this is actually implemented it will make balancing down the road even harder.

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Helminth Abilities tend to be outshined by warframe abilities because if powerful synergies. A lot of the infested abilities would be better as passives rather than actively cast abilities. 

Allowing an infested passive and warframe ability to be infused at once would open up a huuuge amount of customization. It would also keep the two lists from competing with eachother.

Examples:

Expedite Suffering: Passively allows melee slams to create a cone AoE that applies it.

Marked for Death: On Ability Cast - next damage instance affects enemies around affected enemy.

Infested Mobility: Passive mobility and parkour bonus.

Empower: Passive boost to power strength.

The list goes on. Part of why these abilities do not compete well with warframe powers and would be better off as passives that compliment them is because Warframe abilities have augments and can interact with other abulities in a warframe’s kit. I’m not saying these powers don’t, but I am saying that often another warframe power does it better.

Like the new Status immunity Helminth. Why not Spellbind held cast? It’d redundant. Buuuuut a passive status immunity alongside another ability? Spellbind still has the energy generating augment and is cc. That would be interesting. Can have both at once! Never hold cast Spellbind and instead use it for cc, energy and support.

Neat right?

Like any situation you’d want rebuild shields, Pillage often does the job better. Any time you’d want Empower, Rhino gives damage multiplication. This super limits the use cases of helminth’s uniques and is why I feel they would be great, generalized, passives to go alongside powers.

 

Also invigorations are not a good idea. That’s not the kind of power creep I want. I’d rather be able to pick rather than improvise. Random modifiers are better as mission modifiers. If I’m making a loadout I want control.

Edited by Azimbee
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The new Helminth abilities look alright - will depend on numbers, but they're somewhat interesting and encourage experimentation, which is always nice.

The Invigorations are... meh? I like the concept of encouraging more variety by giving you a reason to play other frames than your favourites, but this is a double layer of RNG - random buff on a random frame. I understand why you don't want a reliable buff - that'd be a straight power-creep - but it feels like there are better ways to encourage play variety.

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A big helminth fan, i use it alot and try to think of ways to make unuseable frames useable, but this? 

I am sorry, but.. no.. most of this.. needs to go back to the drawing board.


 

Quote

 

HIDEOUS RESISTANCE (12)

Grant yourself immunity to Status effects

 

Yeah hi, this is spellbind with another name?

Why am i not using Spellbind? ohh i dont have Titania subsumed? i guess i dont need to farm her then.. NOT.
 

Quote

 

VORACIOUS METASTASIS (13)

Consume Energy to heal yourself and grant matching Energy to each ally.

 

Yeah hi, this is Dispensory (Which also gives ammo) but i guess immediate? still no. Dispensory has more benefits.


 

Quote

 

SICKENING PULSE (14)

Emit a pulse that adds stacks to Status Effects already afflicting enemies, except Bleed or Toxin effects which are duplicated with fresh timers.

 

 

Why am i not applying more status with the same source that put it there in the first place? altough i guess it COULD be fun to instead of wasting a whole magazine to apply 200 fire proc's to every enemy in 1.2 seconds with phantasma by pressing and holding one button for that long? yeah actually no... *Kisses the gun dont nerf it, prime it tho plz*
 

Quote

 

GOLDEN INSTINCT (15)

Send out a short-lived Void Spark that is drawn toward the nearest Medallion, Ayatan Sculpture, unscanned Kuria or unscanned Fragment.

 

 

AFK NEKROS MAINS, REJOICE, your new mandatory subsume has been added. This.. could have been a gear item.. or an ability on a new frame.. 

Enter a mission, press and ping, ohh nothing comes up? lets leave the mission and restart.
 

Quote

 

PARASITIC ARMOR (11)

Sacrifice Shields to reinforce Armor for a period of time

 

"Quick, lets think of a way to make less ppl use shield gating, bad ideas only!" 

Also yeah hi, arcane guardian here...

 

**********************

 

INTRODUCING: INVIGORATIONS

*Screams of horror and agony*

No. Nonononono.. NO! i said NO!No. Nonononono.. NO! i said NO!No. Nonononono.. NO! i said NO!

*Screams of horror and agony*

Weekly R-N-G...? arbitration buffs? oh dear lords, NO. *REEEEEE*

 

Sorry, but.. this? behind rank 5 Entrati?

Thank the void we seemingly have to activly CHOOSE to infuse these however or every speedwa would cry out that week.

Alto yeeey a system that only will see its major use every 10 weeks yeeeeeeeey... urgh..

 

Me to helminth:

Sorry dear.. i had hopes but.. i think.. its for the best.. *Tosses segment into the air and shoots it to bits then stomps on it*

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