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Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide


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2 minutes ago, ReasonX said:

On Lv9999 missions, we need more damage, but we died before the mod heats up.

On eidolon hunt, the new mods never heats up.

On daily missions, we dont need more damage, and have no interest to invest the new mods.

ALL OF the new mods are lv.10 mods, which needs lots of endos to upgrade, and they dont deserve their price.

Killing trigger is silly, it force you to use the same weapon and keeps shooting, and it will be very boring in long term missions.

It runs to the opposite side of DE's goal: let every weapon useful, let the game interesting.

 

I suggested Berserk fury be triggered by “On Kill” instead of “Melee Kill” that way you can fluidly move between each different weapon without having to tunnel-vision using only the one type (and thus dividing your Arsenal XD)

maybe the conditional mods can activated on any kill (melee, parazon, etc)???

 

still doesn’t do anything for eidolon hunters or during hectic missions like disruption where you have the scramble to find a specific damage sponge who can nullify all your advantages. 

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IMO the best bonus of building kitguns was the arcane slot...now every weapon has a BETTER arcane. Even if you can double up on the arcanes why would anyone build a kitgun besides for mastery? Kitguns with their rivens are considered trash on the market because low disposition and weak stats. With an arcane slot and customizable stats Kitguns should be some of the most powerful weapons in the game. However, they will most likely get overshadowed by AOE primary/secondary kuva/sister weapons yet again. I was hoping for at least a small touch to kitguns to mix up the melee meta but instead this might make them useless. 

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I'm quite dissapointed at the moment, and i'll try my best to give some constructive criticism.

1: Your goal should be to make all the weapons as FUN as the kuva nukor, not to nerf it. You did it before with the kuva bramma, so you are sistematically nerfing the "FUN" weapons.

2: The melee nerf is a bad solution to a bad weapon design, because in the end, the melee "powercreep" was a solution the players came up with due to a bad "enemy" design in the high levels.

3: Invigorations OH MAN!, don't you know your playerbase? invigorations = you either have this frame with this buff or you are out of the party.

 

Still i appreciate the effort, and the goodwill you guys have. keep up the good work

PS: R.I.P. Kuva nukor, you were a good weapon, you'll be missed.

 

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3 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Good lord that's a lot of powercreep. This is just going to make the game an even easier AoE-fest.

its easier if you're already winning. Its not even fulfilling the original intention of buffing guns to be on par with melee. Its just melee nerfs buried in superficial additions to the game

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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

[...]

The boost to guns looks promising, I'm sure we'll find issues in playtesting, but good job so far. Though having different versions of mods/Arcanes for each type of gun - despite identical effects - does have an unpleasant aftertaste. One concern is "on kill" trigger and kills from status effects - this NEEDS to work under all circumstances.

Berserker and Bloodrush are fair nerfs, Condition Overload not quite. In this incarnation, CO is no longer useful without a status spreading gun. Would have been better to diminish the high end while leaving the low end intact.

Glaive changes are looking bad. 1.2 seconds sounds like it will feel terrible, and quick throws are getting nerfed by 40%? Glaives deserved nerfs, but you didn't nerf in the right place (heavy attacks still get 2x crit from mods).

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2 hours ago, Aldain said:

...Here we go with the power creep.

So many of those mods/arcanes stack too many times, seriously...30% times 12 on that arcane is just insane...also it will flat out make the Kuva Bramma and other such AoE weapons even more insane, even if you put them behind Steel Path they're obscene.

The Galvanized mods also aren't sidegrades, they're flat out better after ramp up, which is the exact problem you just tried to fix with Condition Overload, especially the Status Chance ones.

Edit: Also while this is all well and good for Steel Path, it just reinforces that the baseline content of the game is intended to be an effortless AoE fest.

DE, I love you guys, but this doesn't solve the Arsenal divide, it just reinforces aspects of it.

The way I see it with the Galvanized mods is that it does give power creep but with them and the Arcanes. It relies on solid gameplay. At least there's some skill gating here a bit.

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The changes and additions seem surprisingly good but there are 2 things that feel rather unfinished/bad

1) berserker 10 second duration and primary/secondary merciless 6 second duration

if those values are the cap, then thats way too low, they should be at leasy 15 secs and ~10 secs respectively minimum, if the cap is equivalent to the stacks (so 20 secs for berserker and 36 secs for merciless) then they seem good and not a pain to maintain

2) Primary/Secondary dexterity

it offers a nice duration, however its just worse compared to the other options, not only you get less bonuses but you also have to use something that isnt the weapon, a bonus damage to lifted enemies would be very nice 

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2 hours ago, smashedwookie said:

steelpath isnt the only way to do high level content

It’s the only way to get the those “gun buffs” they kept promising in exchange for those very real melee nerfs though. So... if you are cool with being nerfed in exchange for NOTHING then you are welcome to take the L. 

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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Beserker Fury, cannot stack with Fury.
On Melee Kill:
+35% Attack Speed (Max 70%)  for 10s. Stacks up to 2x. 

 

This is important because:

- It decouples it from Critical Chance.
- Adds a more defined ramp up using ‘On Kill’ instead of On Crit (which frequently meant 0 to ‘Max’ in one swing hitting 3 enemies).
- Renamed to Berserker Fury to communicate that it can no longer be equipped with Fury / Primed Fury. 

I'm okay with Berserker getting nerfed, and these numbers seem okay. But there is, I think, an issue with the bolded portion. 

Right now, part of the reason Berserker is SO strong, is that unlike most mods, it doesn't stack additively with other Attack Speed mods. It's multiplicative. This post doesn't suggest that this is being changed. If it still stacks multiplicatively, but can no longer be stacked with Fury (which is NEVER used anyway, Gladiator Vice and Quickening are purely better) / Primed Fury, all that's really happened is Fury and Primed Fury have been unnecessarily nerfed. Because players will just stack Berserker with Quickening if they want max speed. Plus, Berserker + Warcry or Arcane Strike will still be sending attack speeds into the stratosphere.

The real nerf to Berserker needs to be changing it to an additive bonus. It'll stop being "must include" with that change. It would still be good at 75% max after ramping up, but there will be give/take vs something like Primed Fury. 

That's my suggestion. Change its proc to "On Kill", change its bonus to additive with other Attack Speed buffs, but leave it named Berserker (don't make it count as a Fury Variant).

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I mean in game it changes absolutely nothing. IMO it’s wasted dev time, all of it. Melee is still meta, no one will play SP for “conditional solo nerf yourself to buff yourself mods”, and “Invigoration system” or random “Warframe rivens” will be unhealthily in the long run, in term of new quests / new frames and parazon rework is completely useless outside of solo play.

Edited by (XBOX)YoungGunn82
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I really wish when enemies with a parazon option die they get stunned or go down on 1 knee or something, staying alive for 3-5 seconds. it would let us kill without having to worry and let us parazon enemies to get our bonuses.

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Of course not, some people like the changes.

I'm not so sure about weapon arcanes, I personally don't like arcanes but I'm fine with them being in the game if I can get them in steel path rather than doing eidolon hunts. I'm expecting them to also get nerfed.

 

Invigorations are plain bad, I'm only playing the frames I want to play.

 

Shotguns also got the short end of the stick, again.

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I really don't get it.

You can only get improved gun stats, after you get a kill?

Eh? Uhh, erhm... the problem is exactly that - you can't get kills because they are underperforming, right? So every single primary and secondary is exactly as weak as before, until after the fight. Whose idea was this?

I am not seeing one single buff for guns, not one single mod. I thought we had already said AOE vs singleshot was a giant issue that needed some love, doesn't this just make it 400% worse?

Then you have to bring your - unchanged, still weak, guns, and go farm steel path?

If you can play through steel path, without the "after the fight bonuses", what do you need the new mods and arcanes for?

And if you can't beat steel path without them, why are they locked behind steel path?

 

I was defnitely expecting to see some solutions to damage types, singleshot vs AOE and underperfoming weapons across the board, so people could use whatever weapon they enjoy.

Copy-pasting the "on kill" arcanes without dealing with any of the issues.... ouch.

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So....You've added a ton of potential screen clutter because everything is going to be on a timer.  That's a bold...and infuriating choice.

I think that the decision to nerf things numerically is pretty backwards.  Instead of addressing things reasonably you've decided to let the edge cases control the primary cases.  That's really disappointing on the melee side.  Maybe instead of a single "but it breaks our animations" statement you could put in the effort to fix more.  A rolling berserk speed bonus still requires upkeep...but instead of that you decided to just do the minimum numerical decrease and have activation only on kills.  Great...this means if we have things going, and lose it, the sponge enemies will simply prevent us from being able to get it back.

Most frustratingly, steel path.  It was supposed to be a challenge mode.  Now it's required for umbral forma.  It's required for stance forma.  It's required for access to mods.  It's definitely not going to get reward upgrades....so that level 105 mission will still reward at best a lith relic.  That isn't a problem though.  That's just the opportunity to get bad rewards, but slightly higher standing.  Ohhh....and now the acolytes can spawn even more often.  That'd be great, if they didn't kill the pacing of every mission and force you to fight another bullet sponge....but this time with infinite energy and apparently more armor than most enemy space ships.

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Why does everything has to be tied to steel path? Trying to balance the game around it is futile, because the steel path itself is flawed as a gamemode.


Remove steel path mode
rework armor and armor scaling
address the enemy AI

Balance around the base game with better enemy AI, make them immune to warframe powers if needed, so they can survive longer. Cripple AOE frames if you want, no need for braindead 250% armor, health and shield multipliers.

Catchmoon didn't outperform in the first place. Overused, maybe. Could as well restore the original falloff.

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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

The “Arcane Unlockers” themselves are an item you’ll need to install on the weapons you want to take further, and you can find the Unlockers in the Steel Path Honors

PLEASE NO

If your goal is to increase diversity for the love of god don't do this. You will force players to use the same weapons because grinding an Arcane Unlocker will feel like a chore. Make the slot free instead

 

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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Kuva Nukor

 

We are indeed touching 1 non-Melee item in the series of Nerfs, and likely to no one’s surprise it’s the Kuva Nukor. It’s a dominant Secondary with incredible power, which is warranted given its acquisition. It’ll keep all of its signature behaviour, but the general output is being notched down slightly with the following change:
- Chains targets reduced to 2 from 4

DE: Guns are too weak.

Also DE: Let's nerf the only gun that's not too weak.

👍

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I'm not nearly as enthusiastic... Some good changes here and there, like Impact, but also a ton of bad ones that push even further in the wrong direction DE's been going in regards to balance. My Kuva Brakk, for example, could go from ~283k DPS to up to 774k DPS with one of the new Arcanes and Galvanized Diffusion. Without a Riven! If DE's goal is to reduce the "arsenal divide" then they're only going to be making it worse. Meta weapons are going to have a field day with the chunky base stats they already enjoy while "bad" weapons are going to get significantly worse in comparison.

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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide

Tenno,

When choosing weapons for a mission, the Tenno have a lot to consider...

  • Which weapons are strong enough for me to fight at this level?

  • Which weapons are best against this faction?

  • Which weapons are the most efficient and easy to use?

  • Which weapons do I have the most fun with?

  • Which Mods make these weapons perform best?

 

The average player will ask themselves at least one of these questions (usually more) before making a selection. Not all weapons are built equal, but ideally there are several answers to each query, so that Tenno can make their own choices from a variety of options and keep things fresh. If one category of weapons outclasses all the others, or makes them feel redundant, then we as developers want to step in to make sure choice exists for the sake of fun.
 

Enter melee weapons, and equally importantly, the Mods you can use on them. Tenno have spent years sharpening their blades, but as a result, we’ve seen Primary and Secondary weapons collecting rust. And the longer we avoid addressing it, the worse this divide will become. 


We are changing Melee and Primary in for the singular purpose of making the combat experience more balanced, especially at high level play (Steel Path, etc). 

 

Generally speaking, we feel that gun stats are in a good place, but it's the Mods that are lacking. Inversely, some Melee Mods are too strong. We intend to address these issues in two ways: firstly, careful nerfs to a handful of Melee Mods; secondly, by offering greater strength for the rest of your Arsenal with Primary and Secondary Arcanes and new Galvanized Mods.  

 

Our goal is to encourage you to use your entire Arsenal in-mission. Switching between Primary, Secondary, and Melee weapons should feel like valid and strategic options, in contrast to the uncontested Melee dominance that exists in the current meta. We want Melee to be fun and powerful as you rip and tear your way through the solar system but we want players to have that same level of fun and power with Primary and Secondary weapons should that be their preference. 

 

The option to choose is key here -- one that is lessened by the current divide between Melee and everything else. Our approach to lessen this divide will be through changes to existing Mods, the addition of new Mods, as well as introducing new Primary and Secondary Weapon Upgrades.
 

TABLE OF CONTENTS 

  • Melee Mod Nerfs

  • Weapon Changes

  • Primary and Secondary Weapon Arcanes

  • Galvanized Mods

  • Login Items

 

If you’d rather watch a video going over this Workshop and the Sisters of Parvos Update at large, check this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4wt-4Bx3Cg

 


 

 


Melee Mod Nerfs

 

We have 5 categories of changes coming:

Berserker
Bloodrush
Condition Overload
Glaives
Kuva Nukor


 

Berserker:

Attack Speed increases for Melee are part of what makes it so dominant. This is especially true when the conditions to reach animation-breaking Attack Speed are as simple as current Berserker: ‘on Critical Hit’. Infinite Attack-Speed Uptime is possible with a single Mod, and the result is animation noise with no distinction between hits, coupled with massive Damage output. 

 

We still want to support the ability to increase your Melee Attack Speed and Damage Output, just not to the levels you currently can.

Berserker is changing from:

+30% Attack Speed (Max 75%) for 24s on Critical Hit
 

To:

Beserker Fury, cannot stack with Fury.
On Melee Kill:
+35% Attack Speed (Max 70%)  for 10s. Stacks up to 2x. 

 

This is important because:

- It decouples it from Critical Chance.
- Adds a more defined ramp up using ‘On Kill’ instead of On Crit (which frequently meant 0 to ‘Max’ in one swing hitting 3 enemies).
- Renamed to Berserker Fury to communicate that it can no longer be equipped with Fury / Primed Fury. 


 

Blood Rush:

 

Blood Rush’s maximum value is being lowered.This changes the achievability of consistent Red Crits from just one Mod (on most Melee weapons, some High-Critical exceptions), and now additional help will be needed via Mods, Arcanes, or Warframe abilities to achieve consistent Red Crits. 

 

One Mod alone generally delivering the best tier of Criticals felt too powerful.

Blood Rush is changing from:
+60% Critical Chance stacks with Combo Multiplier

To

+40% Critical Chance stacks with Combo Multiplier

 

Condition Overload

Condition Overload’s maximum value is being lowered. It’s been some time since we originally changed this Mod, and in this time we’ve decided we’re still not happy with the way this goes up against other Damage Mods (namely Primed Pressure Point). We’ve reduced this to 80% to make it almost as good as Primed Pressure Point, and 3 Status Types back to where it was originally. It remains true that even though the maximum potential damage is lower now, we think it is still an extremely powerful Mod in its latest iteration.

 

There should now be a more meaningful choice: do you want front loaded damage or a build up from multiple Status Types?


Condition Overload is changing from:
+120% Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target.

To

+80% Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target. 



 

Weapon Changes 

 

Glaives

 

In late 2020, we reworked the Glaive melee class to be more powerful and comfortable to use. Overall, we feel these changes had their intended effect as weapons like the Glaive Prime skyrocketed from obscurity to the top of the pile with their newfound ability to inflict huge damage using heavy attacks.

 

However, these changes also introduced a common issue: players with high melee attack speed would sometimes accidentally throw their Glaives when trying to perform simple melee strikes, and the “catch and release” mechanic sometimes resulted in multiple unintended throws. In reviewing our Melee system, we felt it was a good opportunity to address this concern, while also doing a balancing pass to reflect the power in this newly reworked melee class.

 

That said, our two changes to Glaives go hand in hand: 

 

First, the heavy attack wind-up speed is being increased from 0.6 seconds to 1.2 seconds. With more time on the wind-up, it is much harder to accidentally throw when you are trying to swing.

 

With this increased wind-up speed, players are also more capable of performing quick throws. Right now the damage on quick throws is very close to fully charged, so in order to encourage more meaningful choice, our second change is to reduce quick throw damage to approximately 50% of the maximum charge. Exact number changes are as follows:

 

Cerata

Direct Hit Damage from 366 to 201

Radial Damage from 549 to 333

Falcor

Direct Hit Damage from 460 to 250

Radial Damage from 690 to 345

Glaive

Direct Hit Damage from 210 to 116

Radial Damage from 315 to 190

Glaive Prime

Direct Hit Damage from 328 to 180

Radial Damage from 492 to 296

Halikar

Direct Hit Damage from 298 to 163

Radial Damage from 447 to 225

Halikar Wraith

Direct Hit Damage from 503 to 263

Radial Damage from 621 to 329

Kestrel

Direct Hit Damage from 168 to 92

Radial Damage from 252 to 126

Orvius

Direct Hit Damage from 390 to 215

Radial Damage from to 520 to 293

Pathocyst

Direct Hit Damage from 524 to 288

Radial Damage from 786 to 393

Xoris

Direct Hit Damage from 240 to 120

Radial Damage from 480 to 250


 

Kuva Nukor

 

We are indeed touching 1 non-Melee item in the series of Nerfs, and likely to no one’s surprise it’s the Kuva Nukor. It’s a dominant Secondary with incredible power, which is warranted given its acquisition. It’ll keep all of its signature behaviour, but the general output is being notched down slightly with the following change:
- Chains targets reduced to 2 from 4



Onward to Primary & Secondary…

With all the information about how we are lessening power in some ways, let’s move onto the way we are increasing the power available to Primary & Secondary weapon options. 

 

Primary and Secondary Weapon Arcanes


We are going to start with the biggest change: You can now add Arcane Slots (name not final) to your Primary and Secondary weapons, and fill the Slots with new Arcanes that enhance and reward diverse gameplay. 

 

Our entire approach to making Guns a comparable choice in your Arsenal orbits around the notion that Gunplay is fundamentally more varied than Melee: there are pinpoint accuracy guns, AOE guns, and high fire rate Guns (and everything in between). There’s reload times, magazine sizes, and more. We want to make these varied options better at what they do by rewarding you for using them well - thus, Arcanes! 


Because the Gunplay falloff is more of a late-game problem, these new Upgrades will be earned through late-game content systems -- namely, the Steel Path. You’ll be able to get the Arcane Slot Unlockers from Steel Path Honors, whereas the Arcanes themselves drop from Acolytes in the Steel Path! The spawn frequency of Acolytes is also being increased, meaning you’ll get more Steel Essence, as well as more chances for the Arcane you want. All Acolytes will drop them!  

 

There are 6 Arcanes (3 Primary, 3 Secondary) that you’ll be able to rank up and put to put into the new Slots:

PRIMARY:

The first Primary Arcane is designed with Primary weapons that perform well as AOE or high rate-of-fire weapons. This Arcane will reward kills with the following stats at Max rank:


PRIMARY MERCILESS

On Kill:
+30% Damage for 6s. Stacks up to 12x.
+30% Reload Speed
+100% Ammo Max

The more you kill, the more damage you can build up. Groovy!
 


The second Primary Arcane is designed with high precision weapons in mind. Make your Headshots count for greater performance (excluding AOE headshots)!:

PRIMARY DEADHEAD

On Headshot Kill:
120% Damage for 24s. Stacks up to 3x.
+30% to Headshot Multiplier.
-50% Weapon Recoil

 

The final Primary Arcane is designed with using your full loadout in mind, enter Melee synergy:

PRIMARY DEXTERITY

On Melee Kill: +60% Damage for 20s. Stacks up to 6x.


 

SECONDARY: 

Secondary Weapons will receive the same options as Primary Weapons for their Arcanes, but with their own version. In practice, you’d be able to equip yourself with a Precision Secondary like the Knell, a high-fire rate Primary like the Grakata, and select the Arcane that will reward each play style best!

The stats are the same for the Secondary versions of the New Arcanes:


SECONDARY MERCILESS

On Kill:

+30% Damage for 6s. Stacks up to 12x.

+30% Reload Speed

+100% Ammo Max

 

SECONDARY DEADHEAD

On Headshot Kill:

120% Damage for 24s. Stacks up to 3x. 

+30% to Headshot Multiplier.

-50% Weapon Recoil

 

SECONDARY DEXTERITY

On Melee Kill: +60% Damage for 20s. Stacks up to 6x.

 

Ultimately each Arcane stacks up to the same amount of damage, but it’s how you choose to get there that counts. Precision? Spray and Pray? Melee synergy? Your choice!
 

The “Arcane Unlockers” themselves are an item you’ll need to install on the weapons you want to take further, and you can find the Unlockers in the Steel Path Honors. 


 

Galvanized Mods

 

Our observation that Arsenal imbalance becomes obvious at higher level content means that we want your progression to this content to matter for your power level. We want to give you the tools to progress to optimal play with a new series of Mods: Galvanized Mods!

 

The general approach to these Galvanized Mods is that the unconditional upgrade is not quite as good as the non-Galvanized original, but the On Kill conditional increases them well above and beyond what is available with ‘conventional’ Mods in your Arsenal. These will be available from Teshin’s Steel Path Honors. 


 

Sisters of Parvos_Galvanized Mods_2.jpg


 

Login Items

As with many of our large-scale reworks and changes in the past, we want to honour the investment of time and resources our players have put into their Arsenal! Since these changes are both wide-sweeping and precise, we have a general login inbox planned for all players, with a few bonuses for those who meet certain conditions.


With the release of Update 30.5: Sisters of Parvos, players will receive the following upon login:
 

  1. All Players Mastery Rank 5 and above will receive 5 x Built Forma.

  2. All Players Mastery Rank 5 and above will receive a 3-Day Affinity Booster.

  3. Any Player who owns a Kuva Nukor will receive an extra 2 x Built Forma.

  4. All Players who owned ANY Lich Weapon at any point OR have a Converted Lich OR have an active Lich get 1x Requiem Ultimatum (a new item to taunt a Lich or Sister into battle)!

  5. Players who have Converted a Kuva lich OR vanquished a Kuva Lich will get OULL, which is a Requiem Wildcard Mod! 



 

In closing…

Sisters of Parvos will bring these changes on all Platforms. The delivery of these changes is rooted in our goals, and if we miss the mark we’ll be watching for what to tweak. Keep in mind what our goals and visions are when you give feedback after playing!  

 



 

So...melee nerfs, kuva nukor nerfs, glaive nerfs. No actual secondary, or primary buffs? Well that's one way to handle it I guess. A terrible way, but one way.

I mean seriously you slash the effectiveness of peoples melee builds in half, you shift the meta off of Kuva Nukor (people will just use vermasplicer primary now you didn't actual fix anything) and you aren't going to toss them a bone and improve any of the bad things?

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The gun changes are pure powercreep since SP and endurance runs are the only places the discrepancies between most guns and melee are actually relevant. At this rate I'm wondering how long it'll be until the SP level and stat increase will be merged into the starchart.

The only saving grace on it all is that powercreep is already at a point where we can't physically get stronger in 99% of the game due to limitations on traversal speed and enemy spawn rates and one shots still being one shots. But this is still continuing to put the game's design into an even deeper hole that it'll never fully recover from.

 

Also the invigorations system is a hot mess just for being a fresh new layer of unnecessary powercreep but also opens the door to other issues. Like player satisfaction (for those feeling forced to use a buffed frame) and potential elitism.

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