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Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide


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The gun changes are pure powercreep since SP and endurance runs are the only places the discrepancies between most guns and melee are actually relevant. At this rate I'm wondering how long it'll be until the SP level and stat increase will be merged into the starchart.

The only saving grace on it all is that powercreep is already at a point where we can't physically get stronger in 99% of the game due to limitations on traversal speed and enemy spawn rates and one shots still being one shots. But this is still continuing to put the game's design into an even deeper hole that it'll never fully recover from.

 

Also the invigorations system is a hot mess just for being a fresh new layer of unnecessary powercreep but also opens the door to other issues. Like player satisfaction (for those feeling forced to use a buffed frame) and potential elitism.

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Ok so let me tackle these things in terms of what's personally bugging me. 

Why are we nerfing Blood Rush? Red crits are not what's letting people annihilate steel path, it's Condition Overload and Anti-Faction mods. The nerf to Condition Overload and Berserker was fine. So why not just leave Blood Rush alone so people can see big crits even if it's inefficient for damage?

Second, these changes for the Parazon are headed in the right direction however I think an idea floating around the community would've been a bit better, cooler, and would let the Parazon be useful at all levels. I think the base health percentage being 40% is fine, but, I think every kill should increase the health threshold. Once you kill enough enemies you can use the Parazon to instantly kill a single enemy, and have increased chances to drop energy orbs/health orbs/ammo. I feel like this would make the use of the Parazon more strategic, and also not overburdening since it DOES slow down gameplay. For every enemy you cinematically kill with the Parazon you could have killed 10-20 others in the same amount of time.

As for Impact... honestly I'm as stuck as what to do with it as yall are. Both it and Puncture kind of need some revisits. 

As for the logins, I appreciate it, but could we get 2 Forma per Kuva Weapon we've mastered? 
Since the game tracks mastery that means it knows which Kuva weapons we've spent 5 forma on. I think it would only be fair to reimburse players 2/5ths of the Forma invested if you're going to give us this forma anyways. Enough so we can forma some of the new weapons coming in the next patch, but not enough to let us slap all 5 into all of the Granum weapons on launch day. 

Now, with all that being said. The new mods for guns look good (as long as I can put Galvanized Scope on Shotguns), along with the arcanes. We're moving in the right direction on this one. A mostly solid set of changes. 
 

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2 hours ago, Aldain said:

...Here we go with the power creep.

So many of those mods/arcanes stack too many times, seriously...30% times 12 on that arcane is just insane...also it will flat out make the Kuva Bramma and other such AoE weapons even more insane, even if you put them behind Steel Path they're obscene.

The Galvanized mods also aren't sidegrades, they're flat out better after ramp up, which is the exact problem you just tried to fix with Condition Overload, especially the Status Chance ones.

Edit: Also while this is all well and good for Steel Path, it just reinforces that the baseline content of the game is intended to be an effortless AoE fest.

DE, I love you guys, but this doesn't solve the Arsenal divide, it just reinforces aspects of it.

its x2-x5 for 12secs not x12

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55 minutes ago, -CCC-Insp3ctorJon3s said:

To be honest, melee nerfs are lower than expected, wtf is that "speed nerf"? its basically nothing, there are even only very few cases where you use berserker and fury at the same time . And if, Wisp/Valk/Volt still exist and arcane strike ... "lets nerf nukor" seems nice and (imo needed) but "lets give it access to arcanes and insane looking new mods" .
DE a few months ago: "oh no glaives are kinda bad, noone plays them" -> buffing glaives -> people start using them
DE now: "oh no glaives are now popular, nerf it or something"

you are mistaken, they dont buff nothing, they only nerf things to balance... to make all weapons the same.

why to make a forgotten weapon more appealing when they can nerf the more used, DE reasoning

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I'm having mixed feelings about this. the addittions definitely sound like fun to me, but I think they don't address any of the issues DE was trying to solve with them. They are just adding even more powercreep, and instead of diversifying the meta they just shifted it around. Weak weapons will stay weak, and powerful weapons will feel even more broken. And now, instead of stomping enemies with melee, we will stomp them with guns (which is objectively worse, since we have a lot of guns with aoe damage).

I'm positive I'm going to have a lot of fun with the update, but I honestly can't understand DE's decision process behind it.

Edited by General-Pacman
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I've gotta admit, I find this really disappointing. Not the nerfs. I think those are pretty justified, and small enough to be reasonable. The problem is the new gun mods and arcanes. I haven't done much with steel path. I found the rewards kind of underwhelming, the focus on melee boring, and the sponginess of enemies frustrating. Now, to get the much needed buff to my guns, I have to engage more with steel path, except this time, my guns will be just as bad to start out, and my melee will be worse. Not to mention the grind. 21 arcanes per weapon type, and a new slot unlocker for every weapon i like? I'm not sure I want to bother.

I feel like all of this is because of a fundamental misunderstanding. Melee wasn't just better than guns in SP, guns simply weren't viable for anything but status application. Light mobs are too spongy, and VIP mobs aren't really any more engaging or dangerous. They have comparable amounts of health, and abilities that are all knockdowns, damage auras, slows, nothing scary, just irritating. There needs to be ground level reworks done on enemy numbers and variety, and ESPECIALLY how our weapons work on them, but I don't think it's ever going to happen, which makes me a little sad.

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The arcanes are missing something incredibly important: the reason people weren't using their primary/secondary to begin with is because they don't kill fast enough, so you're nerfing melee without understanding why melee was dominant to begin with.  It's going to be really difficult to proc your "On Headshot Kill" or "On Headshot" arcanes using something like the Acrid or Baza which have low base damage.

Weapons that are already weak (two such examples listed above) in the base damage department will also not be able to take advantage of the new mods.

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So, I guess I'll start with the primary/secondary parts.

They all seem pretty good.

The arcane slots being added to the weapons with the one going into them are very welcoming.{please just unlock them and don't make us pay to unlock them, please please please.). But for sanity sake, just make the drop from steel path eximus units instead, or make it so we can buy them from Teshin with steel essence, or both like you guys did with the Necramech mods from the latest event, both would be preferred,

The galvanized mods seem pretty good idea with a few things that would be nice. Galvanized mods would feel better if all the "on kill" and "on headshot" was changed was replaced with "on hit" or "while aiming" instead, the secondary effect seems just fine. Maybe adding another galvanized mod that's %120 damage on hit, then $30 crit chance on kill stacking 4 time for all classes(primary, shotgun, secondary)

The Melee part is a little more bleak, as it seems the the changes discussed aren't really helping the imbalance.

ATTACK SPEED ISN'T THE PROBLEM. I could care less about fancy animations, i don't even use anything past spamming E(via a manually recorded macro where i press E as much as i could in 1 sec) If you insist in nerfing berserker maybe just make it use the base attack speed of the weapon and keep the on crit part. All the big swords and hammer really need fury to feel good unless you have a riven with attack speed{which we should need to one to make it feel good).

Melee is just fine as is, the primary's need help is all. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE leave melee alone.

Also, why do anything with the Nukor, it was just fine as is, no complaints, it was one the few secondary's that could do anything in the steel path. just don't touch it.

 

 

Edited by TheRealsemaJ
Correcting wording
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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

PRIMARY:

The first Primary Arcane is designed with Primary weapons that perform well as AOE or high rate-of-fire weapons. This Arcane will reward kills with the following stats at Max rank:


PRIMARY MERCILESS

On Kill:
+30% Damage for 6s. Stacks up to 12x.
+30% Reload Speed
+100% Ammo Max

The more you kill, the more damage you can build up. Groovy!

This + Bramma would be so fun.

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Adding more mods, and arcanes is not a buff. It's adding more mods and arcanes. They didn't just nerf mods, they also nerfed core functionality of a weapon, and base damage and core functionality of a weapons class. I stand by what I said. You shouldn't be nerfing things without giving balancing buffs. That's not a balance pass. That's a nerf pass which lets be real is what this is.

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb Cephisso:

I've gotta admit, I find this really disappointing. Not the nerfs. I think those are pretty justified, and small enough to be reasonable. The problem is the new gun mods and arcanes. I haven't done much with steel path. I found the rewards kind of underwhelming, the focus on melee boring, and the sponginess of enemies frustrating. Now, to get the much needed buff to my guns, I have to engage more with steel path, except this time, my guns will be just as bad to start out, and my melee will be worse. Not to mention the grind. 21 arcanes per weapon type, and a new slot unlocker for every weapon i like? I'm not sure I want to bother.

I feel like all of this is because of a fundamental misunderstanding. Melee wasn't just better than guns in SP, guns simply weren't viable for anything but status application. Light mobs are too spongy, and VIP mobs aren't really any more engaging or dangerous. They have comparable amounts of health, and abilities that are all knockdowns, damage auras, slows, nothing scary, just irritating. There needs to be ground level reworks done on enemy numbers and variety, and ESPECIALLY how our weapons work on them, but I don't think it's ever going to happen, which makes me a little sad.

Exactly. There was no primary/secondary buff at all. They just tossed around some really bad mods that dont benefit to anything because you simply cant kill any enemies in Steel Path with primary/secondary weapons except some over the top weapons like Kuva Bramma etc. So all the weapons that were bad before this update, will also stay bad after the update. This whole update is pointless and just there to nerf melee.

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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are going to start with the biggest change: You can now add Arcane Slots (name not final) to your Primary and Secondary weapons, and fill the Slots with new Arcanes that enhance and reward diverse gameplay. 

Because the Gunplay falloff is more of a late-game problem, these new Upgrades will be earned through late-game content systems -- namely, the Steel Path. You’ll be able to get the Arcane Slot Unlockers from Steel Path Honors, whereas the Arcanes themselves drop from Acolytes in the Steel Path!

These "Arcane Slot Unlockers" make no sense for me ... why make a different system for Primary/Secondary than the Warframe/Operator/Zaw?

Also this even counteracts the new planned Helminth INVIGORATIONS changes (random weapon buff) , because it'll be really bad for weapon diversity ... you already have to put a catalist and exilus unlock into a weapon (plus forma and riven), now an arcane unlocker too ... noone will use multiple weapons just for fun because the time to upgrade a single weapon will just increase again.

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All new Arcanes and mods have "on kill" condition. They will be useless in boss fights or 1v1 on high priority targets. None of these nerfs or buffs address the initial problem of primaries and secondaries being severely underpowered.

I want to see my gun do something useful, not just soak all its ammo in a lvl120 nox.

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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Weapon Changes 

 

 

Glaives

 

In late 2020, we reworked the Glaive melee class to be more powerful and comfortable to use. Overall, we feel these changes had their intended effect as weapons like the Glaive Prime skyrocketed from obscurity to the top of the pile with their newfound ability to inflict huge damage using heavy attacks.

 

However, these changes also introduced a common issue: players with high melee attack speed would sometimes accidentally throw their Glaives when trying to perform simple melee strikes, and the “catch and release” mechanic sometimes resulted in multiple unintended throws. In reviewing our Melee system, we felt it was a good opportunity to address this concern, while also doing a balancing pass to reflect the power in this newly reworked melee class.

 

That said, our two changes to Glaives go hand in hand: 

 

First, the heavy attack wind-up speed is being increased from 0.6 seconds to 1.2 seconds. With more time on the wind-up, it is much harder to accidentally throw when you are trying to swing.

 

With this increased wind-up speed, players are also more capable of performing quick throws. Right now the damage on quick throws is very close to fully charged, so in order to encourage more meaningful choice, our second change is to reduce quick throw damage to approximately 50% of the maximum charge. Exact number changes are as follows:

 

 

 

Primary and Secondary Weapon Arcanes


We are going to start with the biggest change: You can now add Arcane Slots (name not final) to your Primary and Secondary weapons, and fill the Slots with new Arcanes that enhance and reward diverse gameplay. 

 

Our entire approach to making Guns a comparable choice in your Arsenal orbits around the notion that Gunplay is fundamentally more varied than Melee: there are pinpoint accuracy guns, AOE guns, and high fire rate Guns (and everything in between). There’s reload times, magazine sizes, and more. We want to make these varied options better at what they do by rewarding you for using them well - thus, Arcanes! 


Because the Gunplay falloff is more of a late-game problem, these new Upgrades will be earned through late-game content systems -- namely, the Steel Path. You’ll be able to get the Arcane Slot Unlockers from Steel Path Honors, whereas the Arcanes themselves drop from Acolytes in the Steel Path! The spawn frequency of Acolytes is also being increased, meaning you’ll get more Steel Essence, as well as more chances for the Arcane you want. All Acolytes will drop them!  

 

There are 6 Arcanes (3 Primary, 3 Secondary) that you’ll be able to rank up and put to put into the new Slots:
 

Okay so this is just a big Nerf to Glaives... Their normal combo attacks are already janky and a pain to use so it encourages throwing them over ever using them as a real Melee Weapon. For me this is fine because I prefer to focus on throwing but for people that want to fight blade to blade not so much. But now It's going to take me Longer to charge my throw because you couldn't have just made the Heavy attack the throw and the Light attack the combo? 0.6 to 1.2 isn't an increase in speed it's a decrease and doesn't seem to address the problem that fast attack speed well trigger accidental quick throws and just hurts players that focus on Heavy throw builds.

The Primary and Secondary Arcanes... Good Idea HOWEVER, those unlockers better not be something that costs like 100 Steel Essence or a random reward.
ALSO these Arcanes SHOULD NOT be Separated by Primary and Secondary... they are the same 3 Arcanes for both... it make sense Current Arcanes have a separation because you equip them on the Warframe so how else would you choose it functioning for Primary or Secondary... But these are going into the Weapon ... there is no reason to have to farm 42 Arcanes just so you can have 2 maxed arcanes of the same nature for big guns and small ones. If you insist on this being the case than I REALLY hope you buy these and they aren't random... and if you do buy them I really hope like the unlockers they aren't super expensive because 21 x 6 = 126 ... if each of them are even 50 Steel Essence that's  6,300 ... I love this game but I'm not going to smash my face into Steel Path long enough to get that much Steel Sponduli to buy all that Plus the unlockers for more than one gun

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Lets try following the logic here.

OP melee builds are making Steel Path a total joke.  Does DE decide to focus on rebalancing or reworking Steel path in order to make more builds viable?  No... they just nerf melee for everyone everywhere.

And then to promote using primary/secondary weapons more in Steel Path they add all  these new mods and arcanes... which  they then lock behind grinding steel path.  So in order to  grind Steel Path all you need to do first is grind Steel Path.

 

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30 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Because that's how Pressure Point and all other damage buffs except CO work? It makes logical sense too. Combo Counter is one multiplier, damage mods are another.

Heavy attack go like this currently: (1 + PPP) x Combo Counter + CO
All I'm asking for is CO to go in the logical place of (1 + PPP + CO) x Combo Counter.
 

Ah I see where you're coming from now.

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Look how they massacred my Blood Rush, feels so frustating. I spent a lot of time and resources farming, testing and building  melee weapons. Cerata is my favorite one(Red crits with heavy attack at 2x combo). I think it will be impossible to do this anymore(without arcane avenger). 

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Honestly, I like that you guys chose to be sensible with the melee nerfs. A very welcome change to how you used to rush to overzealous nerfs. I'm fine with the melee mod changes.

While I appreciate the ideas to bring up guns I despise that it is done via new items that will probably take forever to get. It means for a while that you wont get any large scale feedback based on people being able to test these items. I also promise you that aoe guns with Galvanized Chamber will be the meta almost anywhere where you don't need to rely on multiplying damage (so, basically anywhere that isn't SP endurance).

Helminth system expansion: some of the new abilities seem interesting. Invigorations seems "meh" and falls under the same category as arbitration buffs for me which rarely influence what frame i play either. Doesn't hurt anyone though.

Parazon changes seem "whatever" to me mostly unless paired up with a high impact melee weapon. Otherwise I kill them faster with my gun or ability. Long SP endurance would have been where this might have been useful, but you made sure it wont be, sooo yeah... Sidenote: the finisher animation could be faster in general.

I don't care about the Nukor nerf. Zakti, Epitaph and whatever else exist if I need a primer.

Edited by (PSN)Deeceem
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vor 1 Minute schrieb (PSN)Deeceem:

Honestly, I like that you guys chose to be sensible with the melee nerfs. A very welcome change to how you used to rush to overzealous nerfs. I'm fine with the melee mod changes.

While I appreciate the ideas to bring up guns I despise that it is done via new items that will probably take forever to get. It means for a while that you wont get any large scale feedback based on people being able to test these items. I also promise you that aoe guns with Galvanized Chamber will be the meta.

Helminth system expansion: some of the new abilities seem interesting. Invigorations seems "meh" and falls under the same caregory as arbitration buffs for me which rarely influence what frame i play either. Doesn't hurt anyone though.

Parazon changes seem "whatever" to me mostly unless paired up with a high impact melee weapon. Otherwise I kill them faster with my gun or abilitie. Long SP endurance would have been where this might have been useful, but you made sure it wont be, sooo yeah... Sidenote: the finisher animation could be faster in general.

Thank you 🙏 

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even after nerfing melee i asking myself why would i bother with all this crap mods

like why would i trying to stack multishot with galvanized chamber on by tiberon when i can press melee button and kill pack of enemies with ease?

because you know even with 120 extra multishot from galvanized chamber my tiberon won't be able kill more then one enemy per click ( or even multiple clicks lol) unless there will be two enemies staying  in line close to each other

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