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Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide


[DE]Rebecca

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17 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

First time? 

It's sad that older players need to explain to new or returning players that their time isn't respected in-game whatsoever. ;(

It's become so predictable and apparent over the last few years that changes are made that just undermine previous mechanics and past investments.

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Why did you even nerf condition overload, if you also nerfed Blood Rush?.... IF YOU DID'T WANT THE CRIT META TO REMAIN SO OVERWHELMING, then why did you nerf the ONE MOD which made status builds viable & rewarding? 

 I'm sure you guys understand simple math so you already know that if you want to balance something out, you don't remove weight from BOTH SIDES. In this particular case, you're removing even more weight from the side that you're trying to bring back up.... So you're tilting the balance even more in favor of crit, even after nerfing blood rush. 

Why don't you guys wait and see how the ranged changes affect the game first, before you try to approach "balancing melee"?

Seriously DE, wth is up with this workshop?
- Redundant helminth abilities
- Un-inspiring Helminth Lottery
- contradicting "balance nerfs" for melee, when you just needed to make gunplay more rewarding.
- Parazon changes that are admittedly *very nice*, but still won't do anything for enemies below lvl 60. Because enemies below lvl 60, are still going to die too fast for the parazon finishers to get used (so it's only good for Steel Path, arbitrations, or sorties).

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Let's ignore the promised "minor" melee nerfs

Let's talk about "on kill"
First everything in game which is triggered by that is not used (e.g. Deimos arcana)
Second you need the effect to kill but you can't kill without the effect
Third its no reliable, because everytime you lose the buffs you will have a wet noodle

Overall huge nerfs, no buffs, new grind content

Imo disappointed by wrong promises but well whatever but at least change that God damn "on kill" to "on hit"

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8 minutes ago, Voltage said:

It's sad that older players need to explain to new or returning players that their time isn't respected in-game whatsoever. ;(

It's become so predictable and apparent over the last few years that changes are made that just undermine previous mechanics and past investments.

It is a sad state of affairs indeed. 

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Let me quickly reword Galvanised Chamber.

"On kill, guarentee double damage for 20 seconds. Upon four kills, guarantee triple damage for 20 seconds"

 

Triple damage, or 300% damage, is not bad no matter what way you slice it.

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Deimos arcanes aren't used because their effects are stationary aoes with weak effects, not because they're only on kill effects.

You can, in fact, kill things with guns as is. Even with the galvanized mods you will be able to kill enemies. And if you're fighting endurance level enemies that you ""can't"" kill with them then it isn't like the buffs would be helping much. Plus the game shouldn't be balanced around that content to begin with.

If you can't maintain one kill every 6-24 seconds then the problem is your build or you're using a weapon that has no right to be in the content you're playing. Not everything should be SP viable.

 

And if they made the effects "on-hit" then they would either stack as slowly as Hata-Satya (+1.2% CC per hit) or have the conditional removed all together. At which point they either become pointless or replace all similar mods without exception.

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really not a fan of quite a few of these changes

galvanized mods:

  • nice overall addition
  • where is the shotgun crit mod upgrade

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

the new "arcanes"
merciless:

  • not a good idea, blatantly favors weapons such as bramma further pushes warframes already excessive AoE meta

deadhead:

  • not a bad idea per-say but wont address warframes blatant bias towards AoE weapons which the above reinforces

dexterity:

  • the only one i genuinely do like as it pushes diversity of play rather than just cranking a single weapon in your loadout into stupidity

if you want an option that doesn't blatantly favor high damage explosive weapons then it needs to be a low flat damage modifier instead of percentage, but even then, that would still favor AoE weapons because you aren't selectively addressing the issue where AoE on a weapon is by default extremely powerful effect

outside of dexterity i don't think these would make a good addition to the game

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
melee changes:
berzerker:
fair enough, cant complain all that much outside of one pretty heavy issue that really needs to be looked into

  • some weapons are so slow that they borderline required both berzerker and fury to be usable, meanwhile most builds that aren't those weapons will only ever use one or the other already

blood rush:

  • we all knew it was coming, though this is way too hard, realistically for a fair nerf to bloodrush would be to make it 220% crit chance + 20% per combo mult as this would give more diversity of play for a bloodrush user, so they may... just maybe heavy attack without losing all their crit bonus

lack of maiming strike:

  • this mod got utterly brutalized by the melee update so much so that its basically one of the best negatives you can roll on a riven
  • please for the love of god change this to 220% x2 on slide attack with a 14 capacity cost
  • this along with above blood rush suggestion also unifies all the crit mods to be along the same 220% + extra effect

condition overload:

  • so is it going back to the old multiplicative modifier or are you just murdering the mod?

lack of new equal variants:

  • self explanatory.... why? you nerf melee's modifiers pretty hard and decide to give guns pretty disgusting new effects and melee gets.... what? chances are you'll just be flipping the meta from people only using melee to people only using guns, giving guns both the galvanized power creep and new excessively overtuned arcanes while also nerfing melee modifiers?

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
existing mod issues:

stat sticks:

  • please for the love of god make powers such as landslide, whipclaw and shattered lash separately modable

shadow debt mods:

  • shadow debt mods not being useable on exalted weapons has really crippled exalted weapon viability and for what purpose?
  • why cant you just make shadow debt mods a unified "use all your arsenal style play" EG changing modifiers like argon scope to "% gun crit chance based on melee combo" or alternatively adding new mods with such effects

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
continuation of shotgun issues

  • where are the shotgun status chance fixing, some weapons got utterly destroyed by the status chance change due to not being adequately compensated with the removal of the 100% status chance power spike example: tigris prime, realistically should have a minimum of 25%-30% status chance to be even remotely comparable to its old power, in which it JUSTIFIED its need for its 100% status chance power spike, as a weapon it was a single target high burst but terrible sustained damage weapon, its role was to remove a single enemy from existence in its current state its just bad, and most of the pure status shotguns are in much the same state where they were fairly unjustifiably nerfed by the status update


the weapon balance is not just a simple "the gun damage is fine its just the mods" particularly when your answer to a weapon class being too strong is to nerf it quite a bit then giga buff the other options in a fairly careless way that blatantly benefits already strong weapons, these are the sort of changes you should let the community test and give feedback for on a test server instead of just randomly trying to push them through

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Sounds like op's builds are a load of bum.

I'm fine with having to work to get the new things. You'll pick them up while hunting steel essence anyway, which is fine.

When I first heard about the arcanes was worried they'd be locked behind some boss like the eidolon arcanes used to be.

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17 minutes ago, EnwoQ said:

Second you need the effect to kill but you can't kill without the effect
Third its no reliable, because everytime you lose the buffs you will have a wet noodle

Right, because starting at 80% Multishot instead of always having 90% Multishot makes your gun a wet noodle.

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Just realize that already powerful guns (aoe) benefit greatly from those changes (kill a lot) , but single target guns without "on hit" but "on kill" are still useless because you can't kill that fast.
Further in mission with a boss those guns with "on kill" are still useless

Maybe "on hit" is too easy however "on kill" needs trash minions, also the duration is too short for any real gameplay it's just a bandaid for clearing trash enemys.

Edit: Moreover imagine public games, it's either go afk or get kills, I see more nerfs incoming

Edit 2 seems like many people here don't realize that you don't needs those buffs if you can already kill enemys fast enough, meaning guns get more op where it was already op but where you needed it it is useless

Also don't forget you don't get a 9th slot for galvanised, meaning in the end its a increase from 60% ms to 90%ms

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You nerfed 3 staple melee mods and introduced mods that aren't too terribly bad for guns, but stuck them in a place as a reward where they would have been the most useful, how does that make any sense? It also doesn't make sense that they're strictly worse than normal mods until you kill something, which is typically a bullet sponge if you're wanting a bit more of a bite out of your base mods. It's cute that you think we're gonna be juggling between incompatible worse mods; there's literally zero point apart from a little extra damage dealt here and there on statistics because melee is still king when paired with slash.

 

Heavy Attack speed will still be overpowered as sin and never really needed Berserker to begin with; it was just convenient. 

Baruuk is still overpowered as sin and laughs at these changes

Condition Overload was already considered a Primed Pressure Point replacement by many players so why instead of nerfing that didn't you guys just make the two incompatible like you erroneously did for the corrupted fire crit rate mods for rifles and pistols after nerfing those?

Arcanes for the guns sounded cool until I read 15 steel essence a pop for an unlockable. Hooo boy there's problems with this. Kitguns, Warframes, Zaws, and Operators all get their arcanes for free after gilding. Having to spend this much grind for so many weapons in the game is far from realistic. Arcane unlocks aren't a cash shop item huh? The resource booster is right there in the shop after I take a vacation from my full time job to work the full time job of "buffing my guns" so I beg to differ. Buffing acolyte spawns ain't gonna be enough here, DE. The only weapons worth buying an arcane unlocker for are the Bramma and the Nukor (even after its "nerf" here), so good job making the problem stand out more.

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4 minutes ago, Awazx said:

1) The new mods will be useless, and will have a marginal % use.

+200% multishot is literally triple damage for free.

14 minutes ago, Awazx said:

2) The new arcanes for weapons will have very specific and narrow niches, which will make them almost irrelevant.

There's literally only two of them and it costs nothing except the macguffin to enable them to have them in the build.

 

21 minutes ago, Awazx said:

3) People will continue to use the same weapons as always. DE's attempt to use the forgotten weapons in the arsenal will fail.

This one's accurate because DE continues to use a multiplication-based progression system, which causes issues because it magnifies the impact of even small changes. Simply put, every time you add in a new multiplier, or make an existing multiplier larger, the disparity between 'weak' and 'strong' weapons becomes larger. This is also why Rivens simply do not work in terms of their role of bringing up weak weapons - weaker weapons simply do not get the benefit of mods, so even if better weapons get smaller multipliers, unless the margins are small the better weapon will nevertheless get more benefit out of a riven mod.

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You're right about 3 and 4, but I really can't understand how so many of you think the Galvanized mods and primary Arcanes aren't going to be immediate BiS.

22 minutes ago, Awazx said:

1) 1) New mods will be useless and will have a marginal % usage.
2) The new arcanes for weapons will have very specific and narrow niches, which will make them almost irrelevant.

  1. The new mods will be BiS and mandatory. Split Chamber gives you 90% Multishot, Galvanized Chamber will give you 80-200% Multishot. It's flat out better. Same with all the others.
  2. The new Arcanes are extra damage in a new slot that doesn't currently exist, so we're getting more while giving up nothing. All three are +360% Damage when fully ramped up, so you'll use whichever is most convenient or has preferred extra bonuses. The choice between the three might have niches, but they'll all be mandatory.
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5 minutes ago, EnwoQ said:

Just realize that already powerful guns (aoe) benefit greatly from those changes (kill a lot) , but single target guns without "on hit" but "on kill" are still useless because you can't kill that fast.
Further in mission with a boss those guns with "on kill" are still useless

Maybe "on hit" is too easy however "on kill" needs trash minions, also the duration is too short for any real gameplay it's just a bandaid for clearing trash enemys.

Edit: Moreover imagine public games, it's either go afk or get kills, I see more nerfs incoming

Oh absolutely. But that's due to core design failures of Warframe due to a botched transition from a stealth-action hybrid into a horde shooter due to a lack of properly transitioning foundational mechanics like damage and the progression system to fit the needs of the new gameplay style.

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seriously? this is you fix? instead of going through them system and mods and tweak them to fix what they do, and barely touch melee like you said, you just going to rip apart what makes melee fun and then just throw stuff at the wall for guns until something sticks.

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We don't need to buff which is already viable or where it was already viable
Imo "on hit" would be an obvious buff, however "on kill" is a condition which can't be fulfilled if you can't kill fast enough

Isn't the buff supposed to help with killing (don't need help with what I can already kill)

Edit BTW now many melee viable, in the future meta weapons
seems DE don't really want us to use all weapons but only a few

I personally see nothing changed except that we have a new grind and lots of weapons become trash (if nothing is changed till update)

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12 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

PRIMARY:

The first Primary Arcane is designed with Primary weapons that perform well as AOE or high rate-of-fire weapons. This Arcane will reward kills with the following stats at Max rank:


PRIMARY MERCILESS

On Kill:
+30% Damage for 6s. Stacks up to 12x.
+30% Reload Speed
+100% Ammo Max

The more you kill, the more damage you can build up. Groovy!
 


The second Primary Arcane is designed with high precision weapons in mind. Make your Headshots count for greater performance (excluding AOE headshots)!:

PRIMARY DEADHEAD

On Headshot Kill:
120% Damage for 24s. Stacks up to 3x.
+30% to Headshot Multiplier.
-50% Weapon Recoil

 

The final Primary Arcane is designed with using your full loadout in mind, enter Melee synergy:

PRIMARY DEXTERITY

On Melee Kill: +60% Damage for 20s. Stacks up to 6x.


 

SECONDARY: 

Secondary Weapons will receive the same options as Primary Weapons for their Arcanes, but with their own version. In practice, you’d be able to equip yourself with a Precision Secondary like the Knell, a high-fire rate Primary like the Grakata, and select the Arcane that will reward each play style best!

The stats are the same for the Secondary versions of the New Arcanes:


SECONDARY MERCILESS

On Kill:

+30% Damage for 6s. Stacks up to 12x.

+30% Reload Speed

+100% Ammo Max

 

SECONDARY DEADHEAD

On Headshot Kill:

120% Damage for 24s. Stacks up to 3x. 

+30% to Headshot Multiplier.

-50% Weapon Recoil

 

SECONDARY DEXTERITY

On Melee Kill: +60% Damage for 20s. Stacks up to 6x.

I think there's a need to separate the stacks because if every single weapon gets the same amount, AoE and high base damage weapon might outperform those with medium - low base damage. Kuva Tonkor, Kuva Bramma, Lenz, Zarr and anything with high base damage and other stats are the biggest offender in my view.

Taking notes from War Robots, I think we can put separate amount of bonus to make weapons on lower power spectrum getting more bonus while those that strong enough get smaller bonus

Let's say anything with 100+ base damage (Kuva Bramma, etc) and we take Primary Merciless as example

Option 1

On Kill :
+15% damage for 6s. Stacks up to 12x

Option 2
+30% damage for 6s. Stacks up to 6x

The rest of the bonus will be left as is so weapons with lower base damage get more bonus while weapons with higher base damage still getting the bonus but not outperforming the other weapons that has lower damage or no AoE effect

And for melee weapons, I think their stats can be looked again considering their base damage beating most of ranged weapons with little to no downside and powerful mods that are thankfully getting some toning down

I hope this can be put into consideration before release. Take the delay if it's necessary, it's far better than trying to change things midway

Regards

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25 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Triple damage, or 300% damage, is not bad no matter what way you slice it.

Well...unless we're talking power creep...then it's kind of terrible.

Seriously between that arcane and a few of the Galvanized mods I fully expect the Kuva Bramma to show up as the best weapon in the game...again.

You could plop Hunter Munitions on it with Viral+Heat+Bonus Radiation and you've got a self-priming AoE weapon, add in Galvanized Chamber for 200% multishot and Galvanized Aptitude for an Extra 80% damage on top of causing three of the better procs (and blast) and the 300% from Primary Merciless with added Reload Speed and Ammo Maximum with Vigilante Supplies and the usual Crit/Damage mods and I can't see a single thing that can survive that mess.

Of course being a Kuva weapon it can also FIT all of that once forma'd five times too, so honestly this workshop is just "the strong get stronger" while the weak get more forgotten.

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