Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide

[(PSN)MC3609]

That's messy adjustments.

[CaptainFoxLP]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Aldain:

...Here we go with the power creep.

So many of those mods/arcanes stack too many times, seriously...30% times 12 on that arcane is just insane...also it will flat out make the Kuva Bramma and other such AoE weapons even more insane, even if you put them behind Steel Path they're obscene.

The Galvanized mods also aren't sidegrades, they're flat out better after ramp up, which is the exact problem you just tried to fix with Condition Overload, especially the Status Chance ones.

Edit: Also while this is all well and good for Steel Path, it just reinforces that the baseline content of the game is intended to be an effortless AoE fest.

DE, I love you guys, but this doesn't solve the Arsenal divide, it just reinforces aspects of it.

You do realize the problem was that there was no need to use primaries because meele was way too strong? imo these are good additions and for primaries to get used they need to stack that high. Only thing I don't like is that with no stance mods on Guns these are gonna be a pain to forma to get to a good Build.

[EnwoQ]

Just imagine combo counter is not with hits but with kills...
That is the future

Change everything to "on kill" and game will be empty lol

[Bakahung]

I can already feel the "discussions" coming 😥

As always , there seems to be some good change and some questionable ones ( In not just this subject , but all three ) .

But without actually playing them and testing things out , it's really hard to determine the effect of those change . So I'll wait till then to give my feedback.

But anyways , thanks for your effort to make this game better.

 

P.s.

I think a test server can be a good thing to do now ?

[EnwoQ]

If they don't change the "on kill"

Then I suggest to add friendly fire to warframe because we will need it in the future for public games

Edit BTW why not leave berserk as it is and make it not stackable with fury, and 2 stacks at max 60% attackspeed, then its still good (but not much better than primed fury) with its intented change you can just delete the mod entirely from the game

[seargantkailone]

Hmmm, I'm definitely intrigued by some of those new primary/secondary mods, but I'm not so sure I'm a fan of the melee nerfs.  Here's why:

1. As a lot of people have already said, AOE weapons like the Kuva Bramma will become the new super OP meta, simply due to the ease of maintaining stacks from the new mods.
2. MESA (whose Regulators can already pull over 2 million DPS).
   1. Galvanized Diffusion will provide a 200% multishot booster (1.67x higher than Barrel Diffusion).  Even if the two mods can't be stacked (which I would imagine they can't be), this provides Mesa with a DPS of almost 4 million, and that's even before you find a way to proc Viral stacks or slap any arcanes on her.
3. This doesn't even take into account all of the other frames that aren't impacted by these new mods that are also able to deal an insane amount of DPS (Xaku, Gara, whatever nuke frame you care to name...).
4. Conversely, the nerf to Condition Overload alone will reduce the current damage potential of melee weapons (which is around 2 million DPS with Viral procs, and is still less than Mesa's DPS without Viral procs) by a whopping 80%...

Instead, why not just add in higher-level content where the current melee damage and the buffed primary/secondary damage would actually be useful?  That way, things would truly be on a more level playing field and players would be able to play with big chungus numbers...

[EnwoQ]

With those updates gameplay will be like "need to kill every 6 sec an enemy"
Sounds like fun
With running through empty rooms, cc/knockdown, reload, other players, lags
Killing bosses/acolytes be like every 3 sec have to kill/attack something else

Edit You play rhino with Kuva Karak, I play mirage with Kuva Bramma, good luck maintaining your buffs

Not meta? Go afk

Edit 2 future disruption will be fun NOT

[DrinkingRock]

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

Ah yes, because you're assuming stat magnitude has any affect on player usage. Go look at subsumed Eclipse or a Rubico/Kronen/Nukor Riven. Low multipliers are still multipliers which still widen the gap. Creating Arcane disposition only makes players feel bad about their inventory and doesn't actually balance anything. This has been proven with Rivens for years now.

I was spitballing an idea in the brief period of time I had to think about it, pump the brakes on the sass.

It's quite clear from the mountain of replies to this thread already that just about everyone has their own ideas on what is and isn't good about this, what's bad or good for the meta, etc.. Many weapons could use a few more multipliers, and I imagine it won't take long for the new meta to pop up and be established/nerfed. As it stands, it's best to wait it out and provide good faith feedback as the devs work this out. There are much better ways to say you disagree than flaming the guy who shares a glyph with you.

[Leqesai]

27 minutes ago, Shemarria said:

Yeah... a LOT of (justified) negativity,  DE.
You were told time and again (except by Potato-man and who cares what he thinks anymore) "NO MORE NERFS" 
this goes double for the melee.  I know you've already decided to ram these ill advised changes down our throats because of one or two people squealing about 'Melee is new meta!  Waaaaaaa!'
Yes.
Melee was the new meta.  You MADE it so and it was good.  The Tenno are NINJA's; masters of BLADE and gun.
The Steel Path is overseen by a SAMURAI -ahem- Dax, a master of the SWORD.

Sword = melee.

 

Thinks this over. REAL hard.
Remove these boneheaded NOT minor nerfs.
I feel sorry for the poor coders who had to do long hours to create the code to make these unwanted changes.

Hard disagree. The melee nerfs are needed for sure.

 

Good job DE. These are solid changes. Melee is stupid powerful right now and it trivializes most of the content.

[EnwoQ]

Guys this will be only the start, because lots of other things perform at the level of kuva nukor atm, which will bring even more nerfs, at least dozen of weapon nerfs and 8 warframe nerfs incoming soon

[Solireus]

Nerf on melee looks good but I believe the Galvanized mods and the arcanes are a tad too strong. Would prefer if they were "On hit" with double the duration but the actual dmg of the stacks halved or something similar

Overall looking forward to the patch

[nooneyouknow13]

11 hours ago, xcrimsonlegendx said:

So what exactly is a "quick throw" with a glaive? I've never heard this term and the glaive rework workshop doesn't mention it.

Am I to understand that you have to hold the button to swap to your melee exclusively to get full damage now?

A quick throw is any throw you don't hold to full charge.

[AJAL8000]

13 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Hard disagree. The melee nerfs are needed for sure.

 

Good job DE. These are solid changes. Melee is stupid powerful right noe and it trivializes most of the content.

Hard disagree. The primaries and secundaries weapons nerfs are needed for sure.

These are inconsistent changes. primaries and secundaries weapons will be stupid powerful and it trivializes most of the content.

[seargantkailone]

37 minutes ago, Shemarria said:

Yeah... a LOT of (justified) negativity,  DE.
You were told time and again (except by Potato-man and who cares what he thinks anymore) "NO MORE NERFS" 
this goes double for the melee.  I know you've already decided to ram these ill advised changes down our throats because of one or two people squealing about 'Melee is new meta!  Waaaaaaa!'
Yes.
Melee was the new meta.  You MADE it so and it was good.  The Tenno are NINJA's; masters of BLADE and gun.
The Steel Path is overseen by a SAMURAI -ahem- Dax, a master of the SWORD.

Sword = melee.

 

Thinks this over. REAL hard.
Remove these boneheaded NOT minor nerfs.
I feel sorry for the poor coders who had to do long hours to create the code to make these unwanted changes.

Exactly.  These nerfs will reduce melee damage by more than 80%...

[EnwoQ]

Nerfs are meh but those "on kill" condition does nothing but finally add PvP to the game

BTW nerf for all dps, nuker or scaling warframe abilities the following update otherwise people can't trigger their "on kill"

Edit: it's more like a joke now, because nothing will change same with the railjack megathread

[nooneyouknow13]

26 minutes ago, seargantkailone said:

MESA (whose Regulators can already pull over 2 million DPS).

1. Galvanized Diffusion will provide a 200% multishot booster (1.67x higher than Barrel Diffusion).  Even if the two mods can't be stacked (which I would imagine they can't be), this provides Mesa with a DPS of almost 4 million, and that's even before you find a way to proc Viral stacks or slap any arcanes on her.

Psst, Lethal Torrent exists. Going from a multishot value of 3.6 from 2.8 is only a ~28.6% DPS increase, and in this case it requires ramping from a much smaller baseline. As much as I loath Mesa's existence, this doesn't actually make her that much more powerful by itself. And it's called Galvinized Diffusion because it won't be able to slotted with Barrel Diffusion, barring any issues that will need hotfixed.

[seargantkailone]

2 minutes ago, nooneyouknow13 said:

Psst, Lethal Torrent exists. Going from a multishot value of 3.6 from 2.8 is only a ~28.6% DPS increase, and in this case it requires ramping from a much smaller baseline. As much as I loath Mesa's existence, this doesn't actually make her that much more powerful by itself. And it's called Galvinized Diffusion because it won't be able to slotted with Barrel Diffusion, barring any issues that will need hotfixed.

Yeah, my bad about Lethal Torrent, my last two brain cells failed me...  Still, the fact of the matter remains that they are providing a pretty significant damage boost to Mesa (on the order of 500k pre-Viral) while reducing melee damage (which is still less than Mesa's, even with Viral) by more than 80%.  From my point of view, the melee nerfs are completely pointless as long as Warframes are capable of dishing out so much damage.  They say they are trying to get players to diversify their playstyles, but they are almost completely elminating the melee playstyle (which requires more skill than simply tapping a delete button)...

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Joezone619 said:

It was previously stated on a devstream that "we are not going to be changing the stats of every gun in the game." -Reb. I do not see any possible way to rebalance the arsenal without doing so. Melee has had this done for them a while ago, and this is why melee is so strong as compared to guns now, so to refuse to do the same to guns leaves the tables lop-sided at best.

Essentially what I'm saying here is, you need to go in, and change every gun's stats, in order to properly balance them to melee stats.

While there's some truth in that, I'm going to guess in DE's view this

1.  is too labor intensive

2.  has already been done.

On that second point:  the last time ranged weapon stats were overhauled was early 2018.  Melee stats were supposed to be revised shortly thereafter with Melee 3.0 but this was delayed and delayed some more until late 2019.  While both are a long time ago now from our perspective, I'd bet to DE it feels like they just finally got that whole project off their plate.  ...and look where we're at.

And while they could get the weapon system into somewhat better shape by rebalancing weapon stats, I don't think this is really the root issue, or one of them.  Those would be things like status, damage types, armor, the construction of damage multipliers, the role of single target weapons, and a few more things I'm forgetting at the moment.    I mean, increase the Daikyu's damage 10x and give it 100% crit and x5 crit multiplier, and it's still going to be a misfit toy compared to melee or AoE weapons.

Of course, DE isn't addressing those primary issues with this workshop either. 

[HolySeraphin]

One of the guns's disadvantages is the lack of an aura/stance slot. Melee stance mods provide 10 mod capacity, which translates to around 2-3 formas depending on the mod. Guns, however, don't have a similar slot, so they end up costing more forma, and some builds are really tight due to Riven and Primed Mods.

Also, for some reason Split Chamber and Hell's Chamber cost 15 while Barrel Diffusion is 11 despite being a weaker/equivalent mod. 

I think there needs to be either an aura slot or a cost reduction for some mods. Maybe the primary and secondary arcanes could provide extra mod capacity. Not every weapon needs it to fit a full build, but I have some builds with literally 8 formas and a compromise (using a lesser mod)   

[HEICHALOT]

for berserker fury, on critical only benefit critical base melees, what about the status base? having it on kill is so much fair to all melee.

also balancing blood rush with weeping wounds is fair, now, both critical & status have equal chance of proccing

[Daskrieg]

Oh boy looks like nothing much will change gear wise.

1) the stats on guns are not fine where they are, have you even tried using the stug lately?no? didn't think so! the doo need a boost on stats plus the new mods do nothing to buff game play and even the changes made to the corrupted crit mods a few patch back were 3 steps backwards by removing the stacking with the normal crit mods.

2) not going to see much of a change for glaives since when I am playing I hardly ever see them in use.

3)why is it so hard to just say you fail to look at the current weapon usage with a proper set of observations, the reasons some of us use more melee or some of the older weapons rather than the news ones is because certain ones actually work and the rest are just well......not up to par.  the best way I can think of to do this for a good starting point is to go in and raise the damage of guns by 50 to 100% based on how  it works with as of now, adjust the crit chances and status chances each one has slightly for anything that is not above a 20% chance and just try to make it all close stat wise then allow for at least 2 to 3 months of data collection to make any other changes.

[mrrobotto67]

hace 15 minutos, Tiltskillet dijo:

And while they could get the weapon system into somewhat better shape by rebalancing weapon stats, I don't think this is really the root issue, or one of them.  Those would be things like status, damage types, armor, the construction of damage multipliers, the role of single target weapons, and a few more things I'm forgetting at the moment.    I mean, increase the Daikyu's damage 10x and give it 100% crit and x5 crit multiplier, and it's still going to be a misfit toy compared to melee or AoE weapons.

This right here is so acurate. I specially agree with damage types and multipliers, because of those multipliers some damage types are set to fail (like blast, is not only the proc being bad but also the multipliers being horrific). Before all this gun buff/melee nerf is done, DE should check (once again) their damage system.

 

Probably won't happen tho LOL.

[Tesseract7777]

3 hours ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

With the exception of the condition overload-style galvanized mods, everything activates on kill... given that melee's combo counter can ramp-up even without getting kills, I feel guns will likely lag behind melee. Hoping we'll see one or two mods that allow guns to ramp-up even in scenarios where a kill can't be secured (either because your friendly neighborhood nuke is stealing most of your kills or because you're fighting something like, say, a condrix). The deimos soma-specific mod is a good example of what I mean.

Inb4 they read this and make it so melee combo counter only increases on kill instead of on hit. 

[(PSN)OmegaSlayer]

Age verification for Warframe videos on youtube...really?

Only Steel Panther have those restrictions...

I won't ever put my ID on google to watch a videogame clip

Please reconsider this thing

[Tesseract7777]

1 minute ago, (PSN)OmegaSlayer said:

Age verification for Warframe videos on youtube...really?

Only Steel Panther have those restrictions...

I won't ever put my ID on google to watch a videogame clip

Please reconsider this thing

You are asking the wrong people Tenno... that would be between YouTube and your country of origin and their decisions on what constitutes mature content. 

You are going to have to use a VPN or something to watch from a country that doesn't have new age verification restriction for YouTube, or put up with their silly restrictions, but from what I understand, this is something far beyond DE's power. 

 

Read that thread, which goes over this very well. This is out of the dev's hands... you will have to use a workaround or something...