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Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide


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3 hours ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

With the exception of the condition overload-style galvanized mods, everything activates on kill... given that melee's combo counter can ramp-up even without getting kills, I feel guns will likely lag behind melee. Hoping we'll see one or two mods that allow guns to ramp-up even in scenarios where a kill can't be secured (either because your friendly neighborhood nuke is stealing most of your kills or because you're fighting something like, say, a condrix). The deimos soma-specific mod is a good example of what I mean.

Inb4 they read this and make it so melee combo counter only increases on kill instead of on hit. :devil:

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1 minute ago, (PSN)OmegaSlayer said:

Age verification for Warframe videos on youtube...really?

Only Steel Panther have those restrictions...

I won't ever put my ID on google to watch a videogame clip

Please reconsider this thing

You are asking the wrong people Tenno... that would be between YouTube and your country of origin and their decisions on what constitutes mature content. 

You are going to have to use a VPN or something to watch from a country that doesn't have new age verification restriction for YouTube, or put up with their silly restrictions, but from what I understand, this is something far beyond DE's power. 

 

Read that thread, which goes over this very well. This is out of the dev's hands... you will have to use a workaround or something... 

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I'm not a fan of these new mods and arcanes as they don't solve the divide between melee and guns, all they do is add more grind to making a secondary/primary as strong as a melee weapons.

It takes 1 or 2 forma for most Melee weapons and then they are good to go for the entire game.
Secondaries and Primaries already require 3-4 in most cases, now they'll go up to 5-6 to fit the galvanize mods.
Then additional grind to unlock the arcane slot and then even more grind to even get the arcanes.

This means melee will still be the go to choice of weapon as you'll need to do hours or days of grind to make a SINGLE primary/secondary compare to the damage of a melee.

All Secondaries and Primaries NEED state rebalancing as well as rebalancing of existing mods for them, especially certain categories like shotguns.
For comparison:
A weak MR 1 melee weapon can easily carry you through the star chart and sorties with the right mods.
There are NO MR 1 guns that can do the same.

You can keep the new mods/arcanes but they should have been ADDITIONAL content, not the whole "rebalance".

Here are some stat changes that would help all primary/secondaries:
- 0.5 or 1.0 base punch through on all bullets/projectiles that DON'T explode on impact. This will help so we can shoot through dead corpses that haven't fallen down yet and are blocking living enemies behind them.
- half (roughly) the base reload speed on most if not all secondaries and primaries. One of the biggest issues with guns is the need to reload, which prevents us from using them for a few seconds. Some of the most used primaries/secondaries have either NO reload (ammo straight from the reserve) or quick reload (below 2 seconds)

Any other base stat changes need to be done on the weapon per weapon basis.

 

As for the melee nerfs, I don't really have an issue with them as they don't look like they'll reduce our damage too much.

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So...
...I know I might be a minority of the player base, but I play a lot in spoiler mode with Excalibur Umbra and as far as I know his special passive specter mode currently can't benefit from conditional triggered buffs from mods like Adaptation or Argon Scope or any Warframe arcanes except the untriggered status effect resist arcanes that work like mods. 

If conditional triggered buffs is the way weapons are going for endgame viability, do you think we could pretty please get a look at this so they can be used with Umbra (and in the process maybe allow him to use the other mods and arcanes too with his specter mode)?

Edited by Bricks
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Ever since Deimos Arcana came out, I haven't been willing to grind for the special Residual and Theorem arcanes. I heard that they didn't work. Were they fixed? If DE is adding new arcanes, will they also be none-functional?

 

Also... When will the Ghoul Saw come? I must ride my new saw like the wind!

cat spinning GIF

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This entire ""fix"" is a completely wrong, except for the requiem stuff, parazon rework, and new helminth abilities (I do not know how good they will be on launch, but people will figure them out.) 

First off, the melee nerfs seem to be quite heavy handed especially with the glaives.  However, they do not seem to be too bad as to be considered "nerfed to the ground" territory, but still hurts given the mods affected were mandatory in many builds, especially blood rush and berserker.  Also, Berserker would've done better with its previous trigger ("on critical hit"), not an "on kill" trigger.

The worst part is the """buffs""" to guns, if you can even call it that.

DE just gave us new mods that we have to grind our butts into dust for, not an actual buff to primaries and secondaries.  Furthermore, the galvanized mods would work reliably on the normal star chart (with some exceptions), but start to falter on steel path missions due to the sheer tankiness of enemies on that mode.  So it is barely even a buff when you factor in steel path enemies and are useless on normal star chart missions.

Quote

Generally speaking, we feel that gun stats are in a good place, but it's the Mods that are lacking. Inversely, some Melee Mods are too strong. We intend to address these issues in two ways: firstly, careful nerfs to a handful of Melee Mods; secondly, by offering greater strength for the rest of your Arsenal with Primary and Secondary Arcanes and new Galvanized Mods.  

 

The arcanes are nice, but I do not like the fact that they are gated behind an arcane unlocker as well as a mode that pigeonholes you into using meta frames and weapons.  In addition, while some of the stats on guns need to be looked at, DE fails to understand why melee weapons are good right now.  Simply put, the galvanized mods do not offer the same power that scaling melee mods do.  This problem could have solved with at least a combo counter for guns, heck, they could've made the combo counter universal across melee and guns and could even carry over to archwing and necramechs.

 

While I understand that such an idea in the previous paragraph is quite OP, it is a far better solution than the one presented in this workshop.  Sure, the galvanized mods are nice, but they do not solve the great power divide between melee and guns.

 

TL;DR: This entire thing could've been solved by a combo counter for guns or a universal combo counter shared between guns and melee as well as gun variants of BR, CO, and WW.  However, they decided to take the laziest approach to the issue by nerfing melee and barely buffing guns.

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10 hours ago, (PSN)Spider_Enigma said:

oh, my mistake, you are correct, but people think guns cant kill to trigger it anyways lol

You must be a player that only up to level 100 for enemies. I guarantee you won’t be getting those new arcanes to proc once you’re in a mission for 4+ hours. Let me know how your guns hold up then.

Edited by (PSN)Slyagra69
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2 hours ago, Sykoreon said:

Nerf on melee looks good but I believe the Galvanized mods and the arcanes are a tad too strong. Would prefer if they were "On hit" with double the duration but the actual dmg of the stacks halved or something similar

Overall looking forward to the patch

I think they should be on hit as well. And for the damage if they are the usual type of damage mods they are not increasing total damage by x%, they are adding x% of umodded base damage.

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I like the changes. Haters gonna hate as usual. For so many years we've seen this game evolve and change drastically at some points. Every time people overreact and flaming posts are showing all over the place. But as usual when things settle in, we will be left with better product overall.

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Goodbye my glaive, I knew thee well, but now it seems DE has cast their spell.
No more will I watch a crowd cower in fear as I pull back my hand, only feeling regret as I die, falling face first into sand.

Goodbye my glaive, for I coveted thee, how often you would come to my aid.
Now I must resort to my Nikana, until DE comes to reap her with sickle and spade.

Goodbye my glaive, though you had nearly no peers.
It's with heavy heart that I set you aside, while DE collectively says aloud "Hold our beers.".

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Yeah, because why directly buffing underwhelming stuff without butchering melee, when we can nerf all these old good things you invested into and introduce a bunch of new mods, arcanes and arcane slot unlockers that you'll have to farm? "Here are your buffs. Now go farm them!"

 

Meanwhile, shotguns didn't even get a good crit mod to replace weak-arse blunderbuss. AGAIN.

Edited by GREF_TM
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13 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

We're getting +360% Primary/Secondary damage without spending any mod slots and can trade +90%/+120% multishot for +80-200%. We're getting F A T buffs. Shoot weaker enemies first or something idk.

"I dont know" isnt a good point.

In low level content, the arcanes are unneeded. Weapons can already work, so more damage is just overkill.

On high level content, like Steel Path, where you need the arcanes, you will take more time to get kills, making arcanes less useful. Unless you are using stale meta weapons, you wont get kills easily. Guns WONT reach melee level on SP with just these on kill mods/arcanes, melee already does that WITHOUT on kill.

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Really not a fan of on kill effects. It would take too long to even be able to the get the effect on higher level missions and steel path. i feel like it should be a on hit/crit instead. Also..adding these arcanes to steel path, wasn't steel path meant to be an "optional" mode.

Adding more late game grind does not seem beneficial to most players. Weaker players may not be able to get it. if u think that guns need these mods to make them better, wouldnt they be one of those mandatory mods, and locking them behind late game grind seems confusing.

I think not being able to stack berserker and fury is good, but again, making it an on kill effect really disrupts the flow. Why not make a berserker for guns, like on crit increase fire rate.

Same thing can be said about condition overload, why not a weaker version for guns, like on status 20% more dmg etc....

If u think that the stats of guns are in a good place now, i think you may not be paying attention. I personally don't think melee is that overpowered esp in steel path, but some of the nerfs are expected. Although the guns do need a buff, esp in stats.

 

Also, RIP Glaives.

Edit: Didnt notice, CO was nerfed to 3 status only, wtf. RIP CO too i guess

Edited by Palanium
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15 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

With Condition Overload being nerfed (lower the value per status is fine, but please don't cap it at 3 as you've said in this workshop), can you fix some of its bugs?

There are 2 major ones to my knowledge:

  1. It doesn't work on Glaive throws, Quassus/Arum Spinosa's projectiles, and Desert Wind's waves.
     
  2. Condition Overload doesn't interact properly with heavy attacks. Its damage bonus is not affected by the combo multiplier on heavy attacks.
    It should go like this: base damage x (1 + Pressure Point + CO) x Combo Counter
    Currently, it goes like this: base damage x [ (1 + Pressure Point) x Combo Counter + CO bonus]


With Blood Rush also being nerfed, can it and other Acolyte mods finally be allowed on Exalted melees?

Yes please! We really need this, because even with all these changes, it's still highly likely that people will prefer a normal more powerful melee weapon than exalted weapons. It's why I dont use Wukong anymore, his stick is garbage and you have to Jump through hoops to get it to work slightly. These nerfs are a good opportunity to let us use them on exalted weapons, otherwise...the 4 ends up being a subsumed ability. In my case.

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How bout instead of breaking a bunch of mods then adding new ones, fixing the mods already in game? Theres a whole lot of mods completely unusable in almost any build like Thunderbolt, or any of the rubbish IPS ones, etc. Even the things like ammo drum etc are currently well underperforming. Surely to change up the meta it'd be better to break the cookie-cutter builds we use by updating the many "trap" mods that are a waste of endo rather than simply add more power

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please remove the "on kill" trigger for all new gun mods. as melee bloodrush can reach its full potential even if i dont kill a single enemy. but guns need to kill. i'd suppose something with "on (maybe also consecutive) hit" as this will reward having skill, like this soma mod you introduced with deimos vendor stuff. also i was hoping for some sniper combo interactions, but meh.

i member u saing "small nerfs" - CO caps out at 3 status effects. small. srsly....?this is a huuuge nerf which will make melee inefficient af as it was just after the major rework when you killed meme strike meta. melee in its current state feels just awesome, now you take away this awesomeness. i ever liked warframe for being a funny fluid melee focused game with cool movement, and now this.. but im curious how the guns will play then.

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People who played with bad but fun melee weapons will now be bad melee weapons. COOL!
Now we will have to play with the weapons that are META, what fun! (IT'S IRONY)

Primary and secondary weapons that are bad NOW will be even WORSE, and weapons that are meta will now be even BETTER. COOL! (IT'S IRONY)
So this is the year where the little variety of weapons goes to bin and only the META remains, yes or yes.

So ... Will Mesa get a nerf with the new mods? It would be just like so many other warframes got nerfed by melee mods.

I will never tire of saying it, I prefer a year or half a year without new content and in exchange for the weapons to be reviewed one by one so that they can adjust to these times.

You will never learn that these "patches" never fix problems.

It saddens me a lot to see that instead of giving variety to the players, you always take away the little variety that exists in this game, in the end all the players are clones with the same weapons and then on top of that you arrive with the "balance" without thinking about the weapons less favored and no matter what happens to them, just to "fix" broken weapons.

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