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Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide


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vor 3 Minuten schrieb GREF_TM:

  

Yeah, the good ol' OP plasma sword.

Except pretty much every mission that is worth farming in warframe is 120 and below. When the update drops, wanna farm new frame? Probably drops from somwhere between lvl40 and lvl80. How about new weapons and ephemeras from liches? lvl65-lvl110. See the pattern?

The only reason to go steel path when the update drops would be to farm arcanes, and even that is forced - apparently, DE thought that just buffing stuff isn't gonna cut it, and we need to farm these "buffs" too before we can taste them.

Plasma Sword is an extreme example, but I am sure I can get it to work in Steel Path somehow.

For Steel Path, you could play it for the exact same reason as I do: It is more fun with a little challenge...
If you don't want to play Steel Path, all this does not even concern you, you can just go on playing however you want, because normal lvl 60 mobs die fast from everything.

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Wow... I always offer you the courtesy of hope that something will improve, that the new accounts you made will get you some insight, but apparently, all for naught... These changes only prove you have no idea what to do. The mods and the arcanes look pretty neat at the first glance, but all they do is they will only buff the already strong weapons. My Trumna will love the arcane merciless.

But some weak weapons? How can weapon benefit from an on-kill effect, if it can't score a kill in the first place. That is one issue. Also, many players don't want to bother themselves with keeping up some random buffs. Some players like stability. With this, the game will deteoriate into a chase for buffs and for kills. And oopsie, enemies won't spawn for a moment (which ain't player's fault btw), all buffs are lost, gotta begin anew. And this is not good. The upkeep of buffs playstyle is possible, yes, but not everyone likes it.

 

Also, the grind issue. I fully understand that Warframe is a grind game. But what we want to grind for is something new, some new interesting rewards. New weapons and New, original mods. We certainly don't want to farm for new mods, that are supposed to cross the divide that is there the whole game. This is like saying: You will be using melee the whole time and maybe, just maybe, if you go into SP, you can also start using guns now. If you slash your way through all the enemies first.

The divide was supposed to be fixed for everyone, not just some players. The galvanized mods were never supposed to exist. They were supposed to be upgrades of the old mods. Or you know, how about buffing all games. Just sit within a paper for a few hours, and raise some numbers up. TL; DR: You are forcing us to farm for something that should be accessible to everyone automatically... For NO, REAL, REASON. As if there wasn't enough farm already with the new lich guns.

 

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The Kuva Nukor is disproportionately strong, it needed toning down. Be interested to see how the proposed change plays out.

I get it, I don't particularly like change either, but wow there is a lot of catastrophising here for changes that haven't even gone live yet.

Weeping Wounds remains as it is and Blood Rush/CO are still more powerful than any other crit/dmg melee mod even with these proposed changes. As for attack speed, Quickening can still be stacked with Fury (presumably), there's still Arcane Strike, not to mention rivens. I don't think we're going to lose out. Chill.

It's nice to see some meaningful rewards besides kuva and umbra forma being put in to Steel Path.

 

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vor 9 Minuten schrieb LSG501:

Ignoring the fact I can't watch the video's due to 'age restrictions' (why...), and I don't want to give youtube my bank details or id just to say I'm old enough, everything written there honestly feels like it's going to take away the last remaining things I found 'fun' in the game, I enjoyed melee far more than the 'guns' ... 

In all honesty I'm pretty sure this will bring about more issues than it will solve.

 

The recent changes (and this might sound hyperbolic) and direction of the game has pretty much killed my interest in the game (actually most of my clan aren't playing either), I haven't even bothered to farm for the latest prime stuff (back to inaros iirc and I like inaros)..... with this I'm not even sure I'll bother reinstalling the game when I do my windows reinstall. 

In all honesty DE needs to make their minds up on what this game is and stick to it, they can't 'rely' on the beta tag and then keep needing to 'fix' issues that they create because of lack of future planning or just lack of understanding of how the game plays (big issue is the main dev's don't play the WHOLE game enough imo)

And you think throwing a tantrum and threatening DE will fix their direction?

Which area of the game do you think is unplayable with melee now or will feel far worse? I can guarantee you that in 90% of the game, you won't even feel the changes.

And where were you able to test the changes already? I would like to test as well. And you must have tested, otherwise how will you know how it plays out?

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Uh .... that 「Galvanized Shot」.....

+40% damage / status .... stacks up to 3 .... 

If ppl got unlucky, it's capped to +120% damage? .-.

Assuming pistol have IPS + 2 ele on weapon, proc'ed, so, 200% x3 = 600%?? .-.

Can those be used on Exalted? Peacemaker / Dex Pixia?

Can normal pistol trigger the effect, then use it on Exalted? Or the buff only affected the weapon that give the buff? .-.

Edited by randomCasualPlayer
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the main problem of primaries is not their damage output, it's because the average warframe player has an aim of ~25% and you have to kill big numbers of enemies. the in field ratio of hitting bullets and enemy hp pool just doesn't match. that's why the most ppl go for melee OR aoe weapons like the bramma. they not only hit easy, they hit multiple enemies.

someone pointed that out already, but to be clear: on a mathematical basis this is a melee dps nerf of ~50%. it won't affect the top tier melees with high speed and ~30cc/30stc, because now they kill enemies with 3 slash procs instead of just 1. but all the weapons with worse stats will now fall off in damage output even stronger. so people will rely on the meta weapons even more...

...and yeah you won't see that many satisfying red crits anymore: lifehack - change all crits to red crits in the UI options and just pretend that this nerf never happend :D

the nukor nerf is basically killing it (because - again - now you have to aim) and will make most people switch over to the cedo/epitath. so yeah now you got 2 OP primers instead of 3.

IF the arcanes make primaries and secondaries actually stronger, people will find the second major issue warframe has: the enemy KI is just really bad. it's way to easy to kill them. no matter what level they are. and this won't change for two reasons:

1. DE doesn't have the human ressources to program a good AI

2. enemies in that number with good AI would make warframe a pretty challenging game. now you will have to ask yourself if that widens or narrows the pool of potential new players streaming into warframe. DE knows the answer for sure. everytime they released more challenging content like the original eidolons the same thing happened - only a minor part of the player base played it. resulting in elitism and toxicity. and that's on us not on them.

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Is this supposed balance a joke? I mean really?
The unbalance wasn't from the mods the mods have been around for a long time. The problem is that the mods are % based and base of melee weapons had an insane buff.
Look the changes made on the melee weapons again. Go to a random melee weapon and look patch notes Update 26.0.

For the sake of examples, lets look into Orthos Prime:
Damage increased from 65 to 234
Status Chance increased from 15% to 36%
Critical Chance increased from 10% to 24%
Critical Damage increased from 2x to 2.2x

Imagine if we only increased a rifle damage by the same %. It would be madness, but melee with all the combo build up and whatnot is fine?
Seriously, is there no one that can do some basic math?

Edited by Lminith
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11 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

this does not even concern you

When something gets undeservedly "fixed" into the ground instead of being properly balanced, it does concern me regardless of a level range it affects.

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vor 12 Minuten schrieb Nyarllathoteph:

But some weak weapons? How can weapon benefit from an on-kill effect, if it can't score a kill in the first place.

I can show you how to get kills with every single weapon in the game in every single difficulty, just message me ingame.

Keywords here are: Armor Reduction (Nyx, Ember, many Warframe augments like Ash, Banshee and so on) or Shield Reduction (Hildryn, Nyx and the like, everything magnetic helps), whereas Infested are always easy to kill, Slash Procs, the right elements, or probably even the counter-faction mods that noone uses, because the game is so easy, but which are incredibly strong in the right weapon.

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3 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

If you go solo: your first kill takes longer, if you cannot kill, then I don't know what to say... wait, I do: Learn 2 remove shields or armor, I guess
So, you are mad, because you cannot run through the levels like a madman and kill anything on sight with ease? This is suppossed to happen, this is basically their design goal.

If you go with a group: Focus fire one enemy, then roll from there.

 

People, if you did not play steel path yet or are MR5, please do not take part in discussions like this. Nothing will change for you, I promise.

i see you are conveniently ignoring the points ive made about the real arsenal divide. let me reiterate:
any weapons that are not top tier get pushed further and further down every time DE tries to "fix" the problem because their solutions never address the actual problem, the weapons that are falling off simply dont have the base power to utilize the new solutions.

lemme put it like this. say you have five chefs. the first four are new chefs, and the fifth one has been a chef for a few years and knows a few things.
and you give all five chefs the same offer: the chef that can make the best dish of X quality gets free lessons, and this is in attempt to fix the amount of chefs that are not top tier.
now, the quality required for this, is way higher than the four new chefs are capable of. but the veteran chef is capable of making it without breaking a sweat.
the four chefs that need the free lessons to get better, simply dont have the skill to get the lessons, which they need to get better. so they are left in the dust.
while the veteran chef, is able to get the free lessons, despite being the person thats not the target audience.

this same scenario applies to warframe weapons.
you release a bunch of bunch of mods and arcanes that require kills to trigger in attempt to fix the amount of bad primary weapons
the mods require you to kill endgame enemies
the non meta primary weapons cannot kill endgame enemies fast enough to keep up the on kill buffs
the meta primary weapons can.
the weapons that need the buffs dont get it, while the ones that dont need them do. creating a further power imbalance.

 

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vor 1 Minute schrieb GREF_TM:

When something gets undeservedly "fixed" into the ground instead of being properly balanced, it does concern me regardless of a level range it affects.

Nothing is being "fixed into the ground" for you, don't worry, you won't even feel it at all if you don't play Steel Path or at least Sortie, which are both ridiculously easy right now and could need a bit more challenge.

You did not even play with the new changes, so why are you complaining and based on what?

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1 minute ago, Dunkelheit said:

I can show you how to get kills with every single weapon in the game in every single difficulty, just message me ingame.

Keywords here are: Armor Reduction (Nyx, Ember, many Warframe augments like Ash, Banshee and so on) or Shield Reduction (Hildryn, Nyx and the like, everything magnetic helps), whereas Infested are always easy to kill, Slash Procs, the right elements, or probably even the counter-faction mods that noone uses, because the game is so easy, but which are incredibly strong in the right weapon.

ah yes. lemme just bring [frame that has almost no effective way to negate damage on the go along with decent armor] to [mission that requires you to have effective way to negate damage on the go with decent armor]

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6 minutes ago, Lminith said:

melee weapons had an insane buff.

4 minutes ago, Lminith said:

For the sake of examples, lets look into Orthos Prime:

This was a compensation for combo counter losing its damage multiplier and blood rush being nerfed. There wasn't an "insane buff" of any sort, it was effectively like that (if not better, considering how old CO and blood rush worked) far before melee 2.9, probably since they introduced acolytes actually.

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il y a 1 minute, GREF_TM a dit :

This was a compensation for combo counter losing its damage multiplier and blood rush being nerfed. There wasn't an "insane buff" of any sort, it was effectively like that (if not better, considering how old CO and blood rush worked) far before melee 2.9, probably since they introduced acolytes actually.

Except that was never true. There was no nerf on Blood Rush, % was lower per combo, but combo counter got higher. For instance Weeping Wounds was even buffed.

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3 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

Nothing is being "fixed into the ground" for you

"You don't need it, therefore it's not a nerf" is one of the most moronic attempts to make an argument i've seen in a long time.

1 minute ago, Dunkelheit said:

You did not even play with the new changes, so why are you complaining and based on what?

I have enough experience to know that new berserkes is a trash tier mod that will never be used again in a real build at any level range without playing around with it.

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Just accept its a giant nerf

However ffs change the "on kill" because this affect quality of gameplay from fun to stress

No one ever use the "on kill" arcana, just think about it

Also on kill with such short duration is just the death nail for public games

Primed fury is now mandatory and behind a daily login...

Edited by EnwoQ
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Maybe if you want to encourage build diversity why not remove all mandatory pure damage mods like pressurpoint, serration, all multishot and just add the values to the weapons directly? Every weapon needs them and this would free mod places für other mods, make more builds possible and make weapons in general more powerfull and fun to mod.

The Dexterity Arcanes should not be arcanes but in general a gameplaysystem, make guns scale with combocounter and give us a method to hold/increase combo count when using guns. Make the two gameplay styles feed into eachother.

Lastly the age restriction on a dev workshop is very weird when all other videos are not. I am generally against any age restrictions but to age restrict a workshop and not gameplay footage where you slice enemies in half is very concerning, it feels like you want to hide this workshop from your playerbase.

I will not give google my creditcard information or any legal document willingly.

I hope you do better in the future.

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1 minute ago, Lminith said:

Except that was never true.

What was never true? 3x combo giving you 3x damage? CO being an multiplier and stacking exponentially? Or blood rush boosting your crit multiplicatively instead of additively like now?

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"on kill" on everything how to make items useless
Thought DE were trying to buff?

Fix primed fury or remove the on kill of berserk
Fix on kill by removing it from the game, or anyone in party can trigger it, and increase duration

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15 минут назад, GREF_TM сказал:

What was never true? 3x combo giving you 3x damage? CO being an multiplier and stacking exponentially? Or blood rush boosting your crit multiplicatively instead of additively like now?

It is honestly baffling to see how many people consider "melee 2.9" as a giant buff

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14 hours ago, TomCruisesSon said:

Then nothing is lost, we just gain a different way to wipe the floor with enemies.

No something is definitely lost. These melee nerfs are completely out of line on their own, put on top of that that these gun “buffs” do literally nothing.

All this is is a melee nerf. Trying to disguise itself as “balancing guns and melee”.

 

6 hours ago, DarthVZ said:

It is honestly baffling to see how many people consider "melee 2.9" as a giant buff

Exactly. It moved the performance of all melee weapons closer together but lowered to maximum damage output by quite a margin.

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb festivneer:

i see you are conveniently ignoring the points ive made about the real arsenal divide. let me reiterate:
any weapons that are not top tier get pushed further and further down every time DE tries to "fix" the problem because their solutions never address the actual problem, the weapons that are falling off simply dont have the base power to utilize the new solutions.

lemme put it like this. say you have five chefs. the first four are new chefs, and the fifth one has been a chef for a few years and knows a few things.
and you give all five chefs the same offer: the chef that can make the best dish of X quality gets free lessons, and this is in attempt to fix the amount of chefs that are not top tier.
now, the quality required for this, is way higher than the four new chefs are capable of. but the veteran chef is capable of making it without breaking a sweat.
the four chefs that need the free lessons to get better, simply dont have the skill to get the lessons, which they need to get better. so they are left in the dust.
while the veteran chef, is able to get the free lessons, despite being the person thats not the target audience.

this same scenario applies to warframe weapons.
you release a bunch of bunch of mods and arcanes that require kills to trigger in attempt to fix the amount of bad primary weapons
the mods require you to kill endgame enemies
the non meta primary weapons cannot kill endgame enemies fast enough to keep up the on kill buffs
the meta primary weapons can.
the weapons that need the buffs dont get it, while the ones that dont need them do. creating a further power imbalance.

 

I know that you don't want to hear it and in a perfect world, it would get fixed. But DE are not going to fix everything they put into the game for 8 years now. They have limited resources and they will focus on new content to make players happy.

What do you want to have? New weapons, new content, new gamemodes, new ideas to play the game or updates to content from the stone age?

Yeah, there is power creep in the game, the newer weapons are better than the old ones. But with 500 weapons already in the game, how are you going to make them all unique with a limited number of ingredients to work with?
This is not a justification, don't get me wrong, it is just an explanation.

If I as a player had the choice between new content and updates on all old weapons, I would pick the new content in a heartbeat.

 

But I need to be honest with you. We live in a time of complaints. When I was young (and I am way too old), you could either beat a video game or you could not. Hell, most games, I did not even finish, because at one point they were too difficult to me. I tried again and again, got better and still could not do it. This already shows that I am not the most talented of all gamers. Did I run to my mom and cried her a river? No... did I write angry letters to the developers, because I "deserve all the content, because I paid for it?" No! Did I threaten the developers that I will stop playing their game if they don't abide to my will? Hell, NO!
Nowadays, people complain and complain and complain and complain in the forums and hope that they can beat the game this way. It is really pathetic.
Since we already established that I am not very talented and I am quite old, I can still assure you that I can easily start new and get EVERYTHING in the game without using the market, because the game is amazingly easy. Which makes it even more ridiculous that people are complaining in this thread, because the game will be "too hard".
To add even more, they honestly complain before even having played with the new changes! I

 

But maybe I can help you. Which old weapon do you desperately want to play and what do you think you are not able to achieve with this weapon? Because the only thing which really requires certain gear is Profit Taker and Eidolons. Everything else is doable. Might take a bit longer with one weapon than with the other, but it is doable. Use a Warframe that will help you, use mods that will help you, get a riven, because chances are, non-meta weapons will benefit from it immensely and everything is doable.
If you give me ridiculous weapon now, like the MK1-Braton and ask me to play Steal Path with it, yeah, I am not going to help you. Because if you decide to play Ninja Gaiden with a Wooden Sword without upgrades, feel free to try, but don't complain if you fail, because it is hard.

Your Warframe and your Weapon are your way to success, Tenno, use both wisely and you will succeed!

Your "chef example" is easily fixed in the market. Because in Warframe, other than your example, you have the ability to get the mods via market AND you have the ability to use melee to get the ranged mods.

Which would translate to your example: The cooks all know how to make great drinks and they can get free lessions by mixing great drinks as well.

 

But maybe I am all wrong, could happen, because you know what? I have not played with the changes yet. Maybe it is way, way worse than I imagine. But you know what? Neither have you. Let us talk when changes have been implemented, ok?

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ive always been a melee fan in any game, but there are some concerning things though. the melee nerf to force us to us guns? im not really into the gun play style but now i have to use it cause D.E said so?.....im not entirely happy about it..

they also buffed glaives a while ago so more people can use them, then they go and nerf the hell out of glaives? that's ironic.

i understand the whole weapon balance thing yes, but this is a game about being power hungry. so why the nerf if they could just buff the guns?

few years from now DE will say not enough people are using melee weapons and start nerfing guns...mark my words.

yeah ...buff guns...new meta..poor one shotting eidelons and bosses another nerf coming..

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46 минут назад, Dunkelheit сказал:

And you think throwing a tantrum and threatening DE will fix their direction?

Judging from past events - very much so. The bigger the backlash, the better.

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hace 33 minutos, GREF_TM dijo:

This was a compensation for combo counter losing its damage multiplier and blood rush being nerfed. There wasn't an "insane buff" of any sort, it was effectively like that (if not better, considering how old CO and blood rush worked) far before melee 2.9, probably since they introduced acolytes actually.

Indeed, that was a huge nerf, and now again another huge nerf. Melee is having a bad time lately...

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