Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide

[GREF_TM]

2 minutes ago, XzWasPzX said:

Indeed, that was a huge nerf, and now again another huge nerf. Melee is having a bad time lately...

Well, berserker for example was busted and deserved a nerf. But instead of a nerf, it effectively gets deleted next patch. It's like simulor/tonkor all over again and it bugs me.

[XzWasPzX]

hace 1 minuto, GREF_TM dijo:

Well, berserker for example was busted and deserved a nerf. But instead of a nerf, it effectively gets deleted next patch. It's like simulor/tonkor all over again and it bugs me.

We the veterans are used to nerfs, but this time goes beyond anything we had already seen xD

[Dunkelheit]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb CaptianJackSpanner:

i understand the whole weapon balance thing yes, but this is a game about being power hungry. so why the nerf if they could just buff the guns?

Are you reading the forums?

Because your fellow Tennos are complaining day in, day out that the game

- is too easy

- has no endgame

- has no challenge

Most of the time you will find at least one thread on page 1 in general discussion

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

18 hours ago, Wyrd_Oh said:

They explicitly said during a Dev Stream beforehand there would be small amount of nerfs

These aren’t small nerfs.

[Dunkelheit]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb anfuerudo:

Well, my complaining is based on 7.5k clocked hours.

Then please tell me what will happen with these changes?

Will a normal lvl 5 capture mission take 30 minutes?

Will a normal Steel Path capture mission take 30 minutes?

Will melee be unusable, because too weak?

Will ranged be OP or too weak? Because I hear both opinions here.

Just make a prediction and I come back to you later when the patch actually happened.

[XzWasPzX]

hace 2 minutos, Dunkelheit dijo:

Are you reading the forums?

Because your fellow Tennos are complaining day in, day out that the game

- is too easy

- has no endgame

- has no challenge

Most of the time you will find at least one thread on page 1 in general discussion

FFsake, make raids, make dungeons with special features (Triburos had a great idea on this), but dont give headaches to players, we are here just to hace fun, in order to have headaches there is the real world...

[Dunkelheit]

vor 1 Minute schrieb XzWasPzX:

FFsake, make raids, make dungeons with special features (Triburos had a great idea on this), but dont give headaches to players, we are here just to hace fun, in order to have headaches there is the real world...

What headaches do you mean? Melee was grossly overpowered, in fact it was so overpowered that even Steel path felt like a lvl 10 mission to me. But maybe you and my ideas of gaming are completely different. I personally like to have a challenge at least once in a while. And Warframe is the easiest game in the world if modded correctly.

There are only 4 things in game, which can potentially become a headache:

- Stalker in high levels or Steel Path due to status immunity

- Sentients, basically same as Stalker, but they have counters

- Profit Taker (need a lot preparation to do efficiently and fast, easy if you don't care about speed and efficiency though)

- Eidolons (same as Profit Taker, but 3rd Eidolon can become hard if you don't know what you are doing)

[XzWasPzX]

hace 1 minuto, Dunkelheit dijo:

What headaches do you mean? Melee was grossly overpowered, in fact it was so overpowered that even Steel path felt like a lvl 10 mission to me. But maybe you and my ideas of gaming are completely different. I personally like to have a challenge at least once in a while. And Warframe is the easiest game in the world if modded correctly.

There are only 4 things in game, which can potentially become a headache:

- Stalker in high levels or Steel Path due to status immunity

- Sentients, basically same as Stalker, but they have counters

- Profit Taker (need a lot preparation to do efficiently and fast, easy if you don't care about speed and efficiency though)

- Eidolons (same as Profit Taker, but 3rd Eidolon can become hard if you don't know what you are doing)

Not true... Infested in Steel Path are indeed a challenge: energy leech, life leech, toxin auras, disruptors, knockdowns (If you dont use Primed Sure Footed)... And how did this happen? Simply, damage buff for the faction. 

 

When an energy leech attacks I feel terror, seconds of true panic until i gain my energy back, and surrounded by more threats waiting for an opening. 

 

This could be a very good hint for DE on how to improve the challenge, but the fact is that they buffed infested just because they were a complete joke before the damage buff. 

[DarkSoulSama]

I think the best way to balance guns would have been to rework the "Damage Resistance/Weakness" multipliers, perhaps by tweaking and having them scale with Mission Level.

I'm not very keen on the proposed changes, mainly having to kill enemies in Steel Path to get the damage boost I need to kill enemies in Steel Path.

[Paidari]

Changes are intriguing. Looking forward to see it in action.

Fantastic Thread overall. Expectations met.

[Nyarllathoteph]

56 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

I can show you how to get kills with every single weapon in the game in every single difficulty, just message me ingame.

Keywords here are: Armor Reduction (Nyx, Ember, many Warframe augments like Ash, Banshee and so on) or Shield Reduction (Hildryn, Nyx and the like, everything magnetic helps), whereas Infested are always easy to kill, Slash Procs, the right elements, or probably even the counter-faction mods that noone uses, because the game is so easy, but which are incredibly strong in the right weapon.

Not every warframe is a stripper. Nidus certainly ain't. And the weapons also should be able to kill stuff on their own. That's the point of the weapons. To kill stuff. If not, what is the reason for me to use guns and not just go ham on everything with my warframe or my melee, which does good job on its own, whereas some weaker guns require the buffs from outside sources. And that's plain bad.

Also, don't even attempt to start on the possibilities of Helminth allowing me to give stripper abilities to my favorite frames. The Helminth system is there to allow for variability, to mix things up, to have fun. It should not be a requirement to have that one specific stripping ability.

[(XBOX)AAR24814]

21 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Melee Mod Nerfs

 

We have 5 categories of changes coming:

Berserker
Bloodrush
Condition Overload
Glaives
Kuva Nukor

 

Berserker:

Attack Speed increases for Melee are part of what makes it so dominant. This is especially true when the conditions to reach animation-breaking Attack Speed are as simple as current Berserker: ‘on Critical Hit’. Infinite Attack-Speed Uptime is possible with a single Mod, and the result is animation noise with no distinction between hits, coupled with massive Damage output. 

 

We still want to support the ability to increase your Melee Attack Speed and Damage Output, just not to the levels you currently can.

Berserker is changing from:

+30% Attack Speed (Max 75%) for 24s on Critical Hit
 

To:

Beserker Fury, cannot stack with Fury.
On Melee Kill:
+35% Attack Speed (Max 70%)  for 10s. Stacks up to 2x. 

 

This is important because:

- It decouples it from Critical Chance.
- Adds a more defined ramp up using ‘On Kill’ instead of On Crit (which frequently meant 0 to ‘Max’ in one swing hitting 3 enemies).
- Renamed to Berserker Fury to communicate that it can no longer be equipped with Fury / Primed Fury. 

 

Blood Rush:

 

Blood Rush’s maximum value is being lowered.This changes the achievability of consistent Red Crits from just one Mod (on most Melee weapons, some High-Critical exceptions), and now additional help will be needed via Mods, Arcanes, or Warframe abilities to achieve consistent Red Crits. 

 

One Mod alone generally delivering the best tier of Criticals felt too powerful.

Blood Rush is changing from:
+60% Critical Chance stacks with Combo Multiplier

To

+40% Critical Chance stacks with Combo Multiplier

 

Condition Overload

Condition Overload’s maximum value is being lowered. It’s been some time since we originally changed this Mod, and in this time we’ve decided we’re still not happy with the way this goes up against other Damage Mods (namely Primed Pressure Point). We’ve reduced this to 80% to make it almost as good as Primed Pressure Point, and 3 Status Types back to where it was originally. It remains true that even though the maximum potential damage is lower now, we think it is still an extremely powerful Mod in its latest iteration.

 

There should now be a more meaningful choice: do you want front loaded damage or a build up from multiple Status Types?

Condition Overload is changing from:
+120% Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target.

To

+80% Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target. 

 

I don't understand the reason to nerf melee so badly. For the past 2+ years melee has been meta and players like me were used to playing with melee only. Non stacking of attack mods is understandable but why did you nerf blood rush and condition overload? Was it paining you, players were enjoying a game in terms of challenge? In Warframe, the only thing enjoyable is survival (Steel path and normal star chart). How does it matter if we play with either guns or melee or warframe abilities? Please use your nerf hammer sparsely! 

Hoping after the dev workshop, melee changes are reverted or at least proper balancing happens for Blood rush and Condition overload.

[tigerpup]

These galvanised mods take 14 capacity which is very high. In general, gun mod capacity are lower than melee mod capacity since melee has stance mod to increase the cap. And don't forget gun mods also have exilus slot. Will DE balance this issue by increasing the mod capacity of all guns to be similar to the Kuva guns?

[Smurfdaddy]

What @FrostWalk said. If that comment was a petition I would sign that right away.

On kill just totally misses the issues of guns & is in itself quite bad design. On kill stuff like acid shells is great but having to kill enemies to ramp up the dps of the dmg source itself is a very flawed design. First the mods will be strictly unusable in a lot of scenarios (open worlds, boss fights like eidolons etc) or will at least feel very clunky & second you flip the target priority on its head. Instead of going for the big baddies first u will be focusing on the trash mobs, clearing those, just so that u can deal enough dmg for the main enemy.

Creating 9 times nearly the same mod just with a few differing buffs & some headshots sprinkled in there, seems like not a lot of effort were put in those mods. I was really hoping the new mods would be great but as they are they will only help already very strong weapons with AoE capabilities (because they will just kill other mobs accidentality) & still leave all the irrelevant guns right were they are.

I hope u reconsider the trigger conditions for the mods a bit to make them more usable (like on-hit/crit/proc/headhsot etc) since the buffs they provide seems very nice just the trigger condition sux.

[(PSN)LeonidasxGGG]

Honestly, I see all this to be just for those who play Steel Path, which I don't.
Increasing Mod lv to 14 will just make us have to redo ALL our builds. Arcanes remind me of the Exilus Slot (which I haven't even opened in most weapons), and just hads MORE grind to the game. More Steel Essence is nice, or would be, IF Tenshin had more to sell (like the ARCANES you just talked about - at a reasonable price ofc). Changing the Exilus Slot for a normal one and maybe adding one more, THAT would probaly work just the same and save us all a lot of work.

I would much prefer a buff to dual-weilding (which I love) or the introduction to Rage Mode (which you talked about before) than ALL this.

The Parazon changes are humorous. Unless the enemy units become inert or dazzed and we can get to them on time, we'll probably just blow them up anyway because, guess what, they are still shooting at us! And unless we could do the "Mercy" while we slide and/or glide to the enemy, it is just not a feasable way to use it. Cuz waiting for that "Mercy prompt" to happear just slows us down. And btw the Parazon kill animations STILL don't work properly most of the time and there is no real advantage UNLESS you doing stealth/spy missions.

Tbh I much prefered the old melee kills.

Helmith weekly Incantations... why? Do we really need this? Plus in the Helmith? (where well probably have to use resources to trigger them) DO we really need this at ALL!? It is your fault that you created so many frames that have become irrelevant over the years. Since you can't rework every single one of them, you buff them for a week (which admitelly, sounds good). But why in the Helmith system? Why not just have Nora or Darvos or Clem or any NPC say: "This week I'll buff these guys. Enjoy!"

IF the Hemith could somehow buff EXISTING abilities in the ORIGINAL Warframes THAT would be much better.

[XzWasPzX]

hace 3 minutos, (PSN)LeonidasxGGG dijo:

Honestly, I see all this to be just for those who play Steel Path, which I don't.
Increasing Mod lv to 14 will just make us have to redo ALL our builds. Arcanes remind me of the Exilus Slot (which I haven't even opened in most weapons), and just hads MORE grind to the game. More Steel Essence is nice, or would be, IF Tenshin had more to sell (like the ARCANES you just talked about - at a reasonable price ofc).

I would much prefer a buff to dual-weilding (which I love) or the introduction to Rage Mode (which you talked about before) than ALL this.

The Parazon changes are humorous. Unless the enemy units become inert or dazzed and we can get to them on time, we'll probably just blow them up anyway because, guess what, they are still shooting at us! And unless we could do the "Mercy" while we slide and/or glide to the enemy, it is just not a feasable way to use it. Cuz waiting for that "Mercy prompt" to happear just slows us down. And btw the Parazon kill animations STILL don't work properly most of the time and there is no real advantage UNLESS you doing stealth/spy missions.

Tbh I much prefered the old melee kills.

Helmith weekly Incantations... why? Do we really need this? Plus in the Helmith? (where well probably have to use resources to trigger them) DO we really need this at ALL!? It is your fault that you created so many frames that have become irrelevant over the years. Since you can't rework every single one of them, you buff them for a week (which admitelly, sounds good). But why in the Helmith system? Why not just have Nora or Darvos or Clem or any NPC say: "This week I'll buff these guys. Enjoy!"

IF the Hemith could somehow buff EXISTING abilities in the ORIGINAL Warframes THAT would be much better.

Why weekly incantations? Sad and simple: to make you come back to play weekly, because maybe your fav warframe may have a huge buff for a week. And this says something about the numbers of the playerbase... About the usuals at least. And i wont say more on this topic, because makes me sad, I love this game and I disagree with some directions its taking lately.

[TastyTaro]

i really don't want to pick apart OP so i just say this.

melee as it now are good enough. they do their work, i can pick and choose which one to use so overall melee weapons are good. but this is not a reason to give them a gigantic nerf through mods, i think the smater decision would be to leave melee as is and just buff primary and secondary instead. I honestly do not understand this at all, because each every weapon in the game allow players to do starchart and steel path.

I mean i use melee for energy regen and i run with primary and secondary most of the time, but what i see in OP doesn't make sense.

[xOverGrownCarrotx]

At first I was like:

"Oh great, they're gonna make melee so weak and make it harder to kill things"

 

But then I reached the primary and secondary section and now I'm excited for the new mods and arcanes. 

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

I've made some computation with excel, and if I'm not wrong, condition overload at 80% limited to 3 status and bloodrush at 40% will divide by 2 the damage from my typical melee weapons buffed by a Cedo alt fire (7 status at once).

before at x12 combo your kronen prime had a total of damage mult of x15.6 after the mult will be x7.1

(gram prime : before x22.4, after x12.6 / Lesion : before x14.1, after  x6.7)

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

23 minutes ago, DarkSoulSama said:

I think the best way to balance guns would have been to rework the "Damage Resistance/Weakness" multipliers, perhaps by tweaking and having them scale with Mission Level.

I'm not very keen on the proposed changes, mainly having to kill enemies in Steel Path to get the damage boost I need to kill enemies in Steel Path.

One of the problems Warframe had for years was the fact that Damage Resistances/Weakness are irrelevant in the face of armor scaling. 

The Old Corrosive was better than Radiation against Alloy armor.

Viral+Bleed is better against armor than either Corrosive or Radiation and they have double dipping modifiers against armor.

Warframe has too many multipliers on both sides.

Enemy armor shouldn't scale, Viral procs and Critical Damage should be additive with Base damage and headshots should only give a +100% Flat Critical Chance instead of a separate multiplier.

Critical Damage is the main cause of disparity between weapons. While elemental mods and multi-shot can be used effectively by all weapons, Critical Damage is classism. It's basically an exclusive luxury damage multiplier rich weapons hold over the peasants.

[(PSN)Svenx13]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Dunkelheit:

What headaches do you mean? Melee was grossly overpowered, in fact it was so overpowered that even Steel path felt like a lvl 10 mission to me. But maybe you and my ideas of gaming are completely different. I personally like to have a challenge at least once in a while. And Warframe is the easiest game in the world if modded correctly.

There are only 4 things in game, which can potentially become a headache:

- Stalker in high levels or Steel Path due to status immunity

- Sentients, basically same as Stalker, but they have counters

- Profit Taker (need a lot preparation to do efficiently and fast, easy if you don't care about speed and efficiency though)

- Eidolons (same as Profit Taker, but 3rd Eidolon can become hard if you don't know what you are doing)

And melee will still  be overpowered. It will only shift to a heavy Attack meta.

The heavy attacks will be like slide attacks in the old melee system and the glaive prime and xoris will replace the atterax and scoliac.

Sounds to me like a step backwards not forward.

I can already see the consequences 2 months after that dev build goes live. 

"The arsenal divide does not work as intended. So we will nerf glaives"

If they want to improve the flow between the blade and the gun they should look at the ridiculous short 5sec combo duration first, because the whole mechanic is unsuitable to gunplay.

 

 

[Teoarrk]

43 minutes ago, XzWasPzX said:

FFsake, make raids, make dungeons with special features (Triburos had a great idea on this), but dont give headaches to players, we are here just to hace fun, in order to have headaches there is the real world...

Your statement reads as an oxymoron. You can't have raids and dungeons without challenges so what do you mean?

 

[anfuerudo]

36 минут назад, Dunkelheit сказал:

Will a normal lvl 5 capture mission take 30 minutes?

Will a normal Steel Path capture mission take 30 minutes?

I can't care less about capture missions for obvious reasons, it's not a valid example and you know that. These changes will affect missions like defense, survival and, what was that forgettable thing no one likes, ah, right, interception and they will become a drag, even more so than they are now. "On kill" condition is particularly bad here. And yes, I did enough of both arbitrations and SP to encounter trash mobs that cannot be killed in a swing or two with current Berserker/CO/BR stacked.

[XzWasPzX]

Justo ahora, Teoarrk dijo:

Your statement reads as an oxymoron. You can't have raids and dungeons without challenges so what do you mean?

 

I see yo do not know Triburo's idea on dungeons... That explains your quote. 

 

According to Triburos, he meant to create a weekly/monthly dungeon where mods and abilities could be slowly unlocked with progression within the dungeon. Starting with no mods and abilities, earning each piece of your original build until the end, where everything could be available. What means this? Skills based progression, so the challenge its already there from the beggining, cause you dont have anything excepting yourself to make your gameplay effective. 

 

I dont see the intended incoming update be a real "challenge", its something else... But challenge? No, headache. 

[SpiralSilver]

I'm conflicted on this. Melee changes seem harsh (either don't cap condition overload to 3 or don't reduce the base damage) while gun upgrades are good. Like, REALLY good, to the point that I'm honestly not sure how much stronger than melee they are gonna be. Whatever you do please test thoroughly and send any changes to a test server beforehand to make sure the optimal setup does not shift from melee only to gun only, as that completely defeats the purpose.