Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide

[Mediloric]

I must admit, I was expecting a lot worse with these changes, I honestly don't think it addresses the bigger issue with the guns being underpowered in several regards still but it's for sure a step in the right direction. 

However I do still think you need to make a huge sweeping pass at every guns stats, like with what happened with melee a while back, or at the very least, the Kuva/Corpus weapons from the Liches/Sisters, if you want to narrow it down, least then you could justify the grind a bit more. (I know the Kuva/Corpus variant of weapons are generally stronger, but I still don't think despite these changes those weapons will keep up with melee) 

Now as for the Arcanes and Galvanized mods, I'm actually pretty okay with them, I'd have to play with it to see how it goes.

I wonder if my opinion will change later on when we play with it. 

[Ardhanarishvara]

It is my belief that Berserker's nerf was... a bit too much on the extreme end. While it'll still be useful in some content, in my experience against higher level content, it was primarily defined by its ability to ramp up attack speed against enemies you couldn't kill in 1-10 hits. The Wolf of Saturn Six is a good example of this.

You've taken a mod that could scale up at any time, and have made it that to actually achieve its function, you have to do something that you may not be capable of getting with its limitations. Granted, enemy levels would need to be pretty high, or the enemies in question would need to be pretty tanky, but it has effectively been locked out of extremely high-end content, a good number of bosses and mini-bosses, as well as more than a few mega-mooks and special enemies.

The whole point of attack speed is to actually attack quickly enough to kill enemies in a reasonable timeframe. If you have to kill the enemies to get that attack speed, then the mod's value is moot. The same criticism could be made of mods like Bladed Rounds, which also require aiming at the same time, reducing your field of vision and mobility.

The obvious solution is to use it alongside a non-conditional speed mod. Primed Fury is out of the running, so you might as well use Quickening, or Gladiator Vice.

But then the question becomes... if there's a cap on how quick you can attack, and there's a cap on how high enemy levels can get before you simply cannot maintain your speed boost within the timeframe allotted (since you could easily lose it just by having to travel through the map, which happens regularly), why would you not simply pair those aforementioned mods with Primed Fury and have frontloaded attack speed at all times?

My suggestion for Berserker is: +20% Attack Speed; Combo 8x or Above: +20% attack speed; On Kill: +25% attack speed for 12s.
As well as a Primed Berserker Fury where the first two modifiers are the same, but the On Kill bonus is +35% for 16s.

This would allow there to be a baseline boost from the mod (as expected from a Fury mod) as well as a conditional boost that is not tied to actual kill speed/maintenance, and a way to unlock its full power. It would suddenly be more comparable to Quickening and Gladiator Vice in terms of access and utility, instead of being relegated to being more akin to Spring-Loaded Blade, where it exists, but there's simply better options.

In the end, though... if we're locking one attack speed mod out of being used alongside another, does that not set a precedent? If we look at Fury, Gladiator Vice, Quickening, and Berserker all as contemporary mods, then, aside from the base Fury, all of them offer similar-but-different bonuses for 9 Mod Power. Berserker gave the biggest attack speed, but had ramp-up and ramp-down via conditional activation and a timer, Quickening gave the strongest non-conditional attack boost alongside an extra boost that aided attack scaling, and Gladiator Vice gave extra attack power via criticals. All of a sudden, one of them isn't playing nice with the other, where they all used to live in harmony.

Primed Fury existed, and in function it largely had the highest non-conditional attack speed boost, but also cost the most. I've suggested Primed Berserker Fury to exist. I will now make more suggestions.

Quickening Fury: Quickening, but can't pair with other attack speed mods.
Gladiator Fury: Gladiator Vice, but can't pair with other attack speed mods.
Primed Quickening Fury: +45% Attack Speed, 35% Combo Count Chance
Primed Berserker Fury: +30% attack speed, Counts as two Gladiator mods (+20% crit chance scaling with combo)

This essentially guts Melee's ability to ramp attack speed up to max via mods alone, thus lowering its upper attack speed on average without assistance from warframe abilities, arcanes, or other such outside forces. This provides an effective nerf, but on the other hand, having three new buffed up mods to compete for the Attack Speed space alongside Primed Fury, all each with their own relatively appealing bonuses, would help to spruce up modding variety, no?

[ValloVN]

4 hours ago, Dunkelheit said:

If I understood you correctly, this would make all weapons basically equal, no more stat weapon or crit weapon, all weapons would be crit and status weapons. Or am I missing something?

I didnt say equal. There are weapons that got average stats, where u can go crit or status, depending what u want. With upcoming change they both get way weaker than they already are.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 minute ago, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

Fairly disgusted with these changes.   

Headshot for CC% on guns = lame  Should just be for kills.  (why the hell do you think everyone is melee lol)

Nerfing crit builds AND status builds for melee??  (melee still have rivens that will jack up crits/speed???  Whats being done to gladiator mods if anything and why not??)

I have an entire arsenal full of weapons and ur giving 5-7 forma lol... 

But dumping this all on steel path is bullcrap.  SP was suppose to be for people who like challenge and not have exclusive rewards and progression items in them.  You instantly added exclusive rewards and progression items FORCING people to play the hard mode.   Your forcing it in NW to.   #$^$& Steel Path!!!

------------

And your telling me none of this will cause major game breaking performance issues with the game having to track a bazillion different timers???  

Are you already doing Steel Path?

[EnwoQ]

Why berserk was a good design

You buff your crit stats to get more consistency of trigger

With a good weapon you were rewarded

When you had problem to kill it will trigger and help you to kill

New berserk you get the buff after you killed....

[(NSW)Spicy_DX]

 

There’s not just a divide in maximum strength of weapons, but a divide in the amount of grind to reach that max strength. These changes, as they are, only worsen that divide. If I could suggest one thing, new arcanes should add +5 mod capacity per rank, and the new mods should cost as much endo to rank up as if they had only 5 ranks.

 

Melee weapons only need 1 or 2 forma, if any, for a good build because they have stances to give us extra mod capacity. Ranged weapons don’t have anything like that, and now you’re introducing more high-capacity mods which demand even more forma to fit into our builds. On top of that, considering their max rank of 10, I’m expecting they'll cost over 30,000 endo each to rank up.

I understand why Warframe has to make us grind for most things, and I largely enjoy that process, but an intense grind that only serves to bring ranged weapons up to par with power we already have in the form of ranged weapons isn’t fair and thus isn’t enticing.

[Cerikus]

On 2021-06-18 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Galvanized Mods

Our observation that Arsenal imbalance becomes obvious at higher level content means that we want your progression to this content to matter for your power level. We want to give you the tools to progress to optimal play with a new series of Mods: Galvanized Mods!

I think all 3 workshops are a step in a good direction.

For me.. there is one huge issue.

Putting the mods as a steel path reward is baffling decision.

They are suppose to help guns work in steel path, right? Soo... Why put them there as a reward.. Am I suppose to bring melees to do it?

Put it literally anywhere else. There is room everywhere in the game. The only place where they cannot be is steel path. :D

[IrisNebula]

Players: I need more strength to kill enemies.

DE: Kill an enemy you will get a buff.

Players: How am i supposed to kill an enemy without enough strength ?

DE: You can get buffs by killing enemies!

Players: How can I get buffs if I CANNOT KILL AN ENEMY?

DE: KILL ENEMIES !!!

 

[(XBOX)l Saminator l]

3 minutes ago, IrisNebula said:

Players: I need more strength to kill enemies.

DE: Kill an enemy you will get a buff.

Players: How am i supposed to kill an enemy without enough strength ?

DE: You can get buffs by killing enemies!

Players: How can I get buffs if I CANNOT KILL AN ENEMY?

DE: KILL ENEMIES !!!

 

Least some of the new mods and arcanes can trigger in other ways. Such as on hit, on headshot, on melee kill, etc. 

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

21 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Are you already doing Steel Path?

When im forced by NW,   FOR NO OTHER REASON!! 

[eBlaise]

Best gear rewards coming from the hardest content, and people are baffled...
It's like world of warcraft players asking for the top end raid gear that you get from the top end raid, before doing the top end raid.
and I know it's a stats-based game in a different way and you can gradually build up your gear to be prepared and able to do said content, to get the even better gear, but you could say, melee will be still viable to do SP, so you can get your mods to make the rest of your arsenal fully viable in SP too.
And I know the comparison is a bit skewed, but I think it still brings my point across.
DE can never win, if they give the best rewards on the hardest content, ppl will whine that then what's the point of doing the hardest content once you got the best gear from it, and that it's dumb to have to farm the hardest content for the best gear.
If they give the best gear BEFORE the hardest content, we will have what we had until now, of people whining that there's no point to ding SP since it does not reward you for the effort you have to put in (and that is not very much effort once you got your melee nailed down.)

[Satillit]

On Kill condition for buffs is not good for a number of reasons (No enemies due to bad spawn, not enough damage to kill in the first place, short expire timer).

Instead it should be On Hit / On Headshot Hit (same max buff value, lower +% per stack and more stacks) and then either: add different new mods for slow rate of fire weapons (may be just vice versed versions, example: [PH] Galvanized Reversed Chamber - +200% multishot per stack, up to X stacks. one stack depletes after weapon being shot, gain stack after Y seconds or melee weapon kill ) or tie number of gained stacks from hits to weapons firerate through some math formula. So your let say Opticor gains max buffs in a reasonable time, comparable to let say Supra.  

Kuva Nukor is strong weapon, and nerf in its regard is strange. Kuva Weapons should be all that strong actually, considering its the only reward from Liches. If you absolutely want to, 3 chains instead of 4 is an ok spot for it's status spreading ability. Warframe is a horde shooter, mind you.

Berserker can work On Crit Hit still, with same change to max number of stacks and value per stack, so it will ramp longer in between. (About 10 stacks and 12 seconds expire timer will be good spot IMO)

Blood Rush nerf may be too much, 32% crit chance melee weapons is considered the top ones in class, with proposed nerfs they will unable to secure red crits at all, and only 18 percent chance for red with Arcane Avenger. Nerf Blood Rush to +550% instead will make them orange crit guaranteed, while give them only 8% chance of red crit. 8% chance for red crit is miles away from consistency on its own, and with Avenger you will be just in state of previous Blood Rush only builds. It's not insignificant nerf, so please, at least reconsider. 

Exalted Melee will get hit by Condition Overload nerf, namely Excalibur. Considering its not the intent to nerf exalted melee's too, it should be adressed. Also CO does not affect Baruuk's serene storms waves, would be great to clarify is that supposed to be intended design. 

I believe its also a good opportunity to add [PH] Reversed versions for current melee mods too (Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds and Berserker).

Example:

[PH] Reversed Blood Rush - +550% Critical Chance per stack, max to 2 stacks, stack depletes 5 seconds after melee weapon hit, stack regenerate after 15 seconds or Gun kill.

[PH] Reversed Berserker   -  +70% Attack Speed per stack, max to 2 stacks, stack depletes 5 seconds after melee weapon hit, stack regenerate after 15 seconds or Gun kill.

Something like this can create an interesing dynamic between guns an melee, also open some new builds possibilities (like heavy attack build but instead of Corrupted Charge its Reversed Berserker, so you use this attack speed to gain combo and then spend that combo for heavy attack damage).

Also holster speed should be increased and some arcane buff timers too, to encourage active guns swapping. Like, 6 seconds On Kill is just bad for reasons above, 6 seconds On Hit is ok when you shoot only this exact weapon constantly, something like 12-15 seconds in this case is near ideal IMO.

 

[Siinon]

will there be any heavy weapon love?

[(PSN)Alphonso-Alonso]

7 minutes ago, IrisNebula said:

Players: I need more strength to kill enemies.

DE: Kill an enemy you will get a buff.

Players: How am i supposed to kill an enemy without enough strength ?

DE: You can get buffs by killing enemies!

Players: How can I get buffs if I CANNOT KILL AN ENEMY?

DE: KILL ENEMIES !!!

 

Compound this with a squad of “buffed” gun users jocking for last hit so they can earn those “buffs” to offset the melee nerfs?

okay okay-

 

now add the impatient player who naturally gets tired of watching the fellow Tenno struggle to kill one enemy and so they PARAZON KILL THE ENEMY instead!!!

This is a recipe for a lot of drama DE.

 

[TeaHands]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

No something is definitely lost. These melee nerfs are completely out of line on their own, put on top of that that these gun “buffs” do literally nothing.

All this is is a melee nerf. Trying to disguise itself as “balancing guns and melee”.

If you choose the doom and gloom route all your gonna see is doom and gloom, I'm excited for these changes and will change my playstyle accordingly, if even needed.

I'm not going any further with this convo cuz we're just going in circles. Have a good one.

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

When im forced by NW,   FOR NO OTHER REASON!! 

🤔 Are you not able to not do Steel Path for Nightwave?

[Ms_Salami]

20 minutes ago, (NSW)Spicy_DX said:

 

There’s not just a divide in maximum strength of weapons, but a divide in the amount of grind to reach that max strength. These changes, as they are, only worsen that divide. If I could suggest one thing, new arcanes should add +5 mod capacity per rank, and the new mods should cost as much endo to rank up as if they had only 5 ranks.

 

Melee weapons only need 1 or 2 forma, if any, for a good build because they have stances to give us extra mod capacity. Ranged weapons don’t have anything like that, and now you’re introducing more high-capacity mods which demand even more forma to fit into our builds. On top of that, considering their max rank of 10, I’m expecting they'll cost over 30,000 endo each to rank up.

I understand why Warframe has to make us grind for most things, and I largely enjoy that process, but an intense grind that only serves to bring ranged weapons up to par with power we already have in the form of ranged weapons isn’t fair and thus isn’t enticing.

Similarly, we could have had the equivalent stance mods for guns to do just that and not arcanes. Also, it's likely that the new mods won't fit on many guns at all, only the kuva weapons and a few others can even fit the new galvanised mods. For example: this 6 forma fulmin wont be able to fit galvanised mods unless I add another 2 forma removing flexbility almost entirely.

It's just being rushed in without reason.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, Ms_Salami said:

Similarly, we could have had the equivalent stance mods for guns to do just that and not arcanes. Also, it's likely that the new mods won't fit on many guns at all, only the kuva weapons and a few others can even fit the new galvanised mods. For example: this 6 forma fulmin wont be able to fit galvanised mods unless I add another 2 forma removing flexbility almost entirely.

It's just being rushed in without reason.

How well does this Fulmin perform?

[Tiltskillet]

On 2021-06-18 at 7:00 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Berserker:

Seems reasonable, other than cutting the duration so much.  I think that nerf could be reduced or eliminated.

On 2021-06-18 at 7:00 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Blood Rush:

This nerf seems ok, except that it widens the gap between weapons with good crit stats and weapons without.   It would be great if there were a new mod that addressed this.

 

On 2021-06-18 at 7:00 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Condition Overload

The wording is unclear to me.  Besides reducing the bonus per status are you also capping it at three status effects? 

If so, don't.    That's going too far.   Nerf the bonus amount, see how it goes, and then revisit if necessary.  (But I don't think it will be.)

On 2021-06-18 at 7:00 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Glaives

The wind-up increase seems reasonable, and the reduction in quick throw damage too in principle.  But in light of the increased charge time, I think an increase in fully charged throw -direct- damage is warranted.  These weapons are crazy at the moment, but it's because of the AoE.  I think you don't need to discourage people killing things with bounces. 

Why is the damage decrease on quick throws more extreme on some Glaives  than others?

 

* * *

There's a ton more to digest.  That's what I've got time for now.

 

 

[Rage_Inducer]

Right, went over everything one more time and one thing doesn't make any sense to me. 

En 18/6/2021 a las 16:00, [DE]Rebecca dijo:

Our goal is to encourage you to use your entire Arsenal in-mission. Switching between Primary, Secondary, and Melee weapons should feel like valid and strategic options, in contrast to the uncontested Melee dominance that exists in the current meta. We want Melee to be fun and powerful as you rip and tear your way through the solar system but we want players to have that same level of fun and power with Primary and Secondary weapons should that be their preference. 

If that were true, you would't need to bring melee down. Bring Primary and Secondary up to the level of melees and THAT will give people valid options.
Galvanized Mods will be great if the cost to level them is acceptable. I really hope that the blue color isn't just for show and these are classified as uncommons for the purpose of leveling.

[667st]

For how much trouble smeeta's charm (you know what I'm talking about) caused, maybe it's time to remove it? So many changes has to be done to counter it, think about it.

As for nerfs, it's a horde shooter, where shooting isn't optimal to kill things, nerfing melee seems logical.

 

[Ms_Salami]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

How well does this Fulmin perform?

I use it in fairly niche situations where ammo is scarce and shields are high. It's ok.

[(NSW)Greybones]

14 minutes ago, Ms_Salami said:

I use it in fairly niche situations where ammo is scarce and shields are high. It's ok.

Looks pretty powerful. My partner loves the fulmin.

Does it not kill well?

edit: I see

[TheLordOmega2]

"we want to make guns better, but first let's nerf the only really good gun in the game"

What are you guys even smoking?

Melee nerfs, mod incompatibilities, arcane bandaids...

You straight up admitted that the gun/firearms mods aren't good enough but instead of buffing them directly you add a better version with a high drain and a wind up gimmick, amazing...

And even more fun, you broke the corrupted mods by making us unable to equip them with their normal ones, when those could have become a staple of gun tweaking/optimizing.

Give us an extra mod slot or two, buff the base stats, add cool mechanics instead of windups and nerfs.

You got it right once with the melee revamp, but it looks like you are trying really hard to undo that. Don't.

[arocell]

why dont and go ruin everything . you ppl never should reworked the glaives in the first place( that rework that caused the explotions) . im using the falcor since you ruind every melee weapon for the point melee3.0 . the falcor is like 17.5% most used weapon (1700hours total /10430 Missions)  .yeaa nice destroy it and nerf it to the ground and let 830000 kuva (237 rerolls) go to waist . again (after all other unusable weapons after 3.0)

just remove the explotion on the glaive and leave the rest untouched.