Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide

[Shinyah]

Instead of Primary/Secondary arcanes, "gun-stances" (only for the slot, no change for animations) would make more sense for uniformity and fairness compared to melee weapons.

Melee weapons with Orokin Catalyst : 60 + 10 (stance) = 70 points for 8 mods
Primary/Secondary weapons with Orokin Catalyst : 60 points for 8 regular mods and 1 exilus mod

Or make the arcanes give more points if it's easier in the current state of the dev build.

[Inquisidor1174]

At first I liked the changes because "oh boi my knell will become God" but after I analyzed detail I came to this conclusions:

1- Another barrel diffusion variant? We already have 2 and the Amalgam version its good, it provides movements at the cost of 10% less multishoot and its not obligatory like this new one if I want to increase my damage. Improve the normal one instead of adding another version. 

2- My builds will not be different once this changes have implemented, one of my problems at the moment of modding a weapon (besides the mod capacity) are the elemental mods, I need 3 mod slots if I want viral + heat in my build and that left me with 1 mod slot (for riven of course) considering the must-have mods too (like hornet strike, pistol gambit, target cracker and barrel difussion for pistols). Something that would be really cool is having mods with compounds elements like Damzav-vati that gives you 240% viral damage for akbronco prime, this will give more flexibility at the moment of modding a weapon (and finally have some space for bane/expel/cleanse mods or whatever mod you want)  

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, TomCruisesSon said:

If you choose the doom and gloom route all your gonna see is doom and gloom, I'm excited for these changes and will change my playstyle accordingly, if even needed.

I'm not going any further with this convo cuz we're just going in circles. Have a good one.

I don’t want to be doom and gloom about the changes. I wanted the nerfs to actually be minimal and practically unnoticeable and the buffs to actually help guns.

what we got instead is some major melee nerfs and a bunch of grinding for mods and arcanes that can’t even help with the content they are intended to help with.

This entire Dev Workshop is some of the worst changes I’ve seen proposed by DE and that’s coming from someone who was around when they were pitching damage 2.5(which as I recall has been the only proposed change where they actually did back off on adding because the community response was so overwhelmingly negative).

It’s impossible to try and be positive and optimistic about something that is so obviously and blatantly bad.

 

 

2 hours ago, (XBOX)l Saminator l said:

Least some of the new mods and arcanes can trigger in other ways. Such as on hit, on headshot, on melee kill, etc. 

if we’re already killing the enemies effectively enough with melee to give the guns the buff, why would we then switch to using out guns?

[XzWasPzX]

DE, this is why you should enable a test server always, because without any other data than a forum post, people rages since they cant test builds or gameplay... Why I think you dont enable them? Because if so you couldnt slide those changes down our throats. Anyway, changes will have to be done before or after releasing the update, everything points in that direction.

[RoadCrewWorker]

Yeah these workshop leave out a bunch of kinda important make-or-break details and dropping them on a friday before the dev team heads out for the weekend while the forum descends into a panic attack might not have been the smartest strategy.

 

Also yes, this is the stuff that'd be much better communicated via testservers (instead of a youtube video that's locked for a tremendous amount of players), even if DE apparently just intends them for large scale stability/showstopper bug testing.

[Slayer-.]

1 minute ago, Inquisidor1174 said:

At first I liked the changes because "oh boi my knell will become God" but after I analyzed detail the changes and I came to this 

My Knell is a god gun already.

What I'm more concerned with is the change to Berserker going from on Critical Hit to  On Kill, playing Solo Disruption say on Steel Path and we need to find an enemy to kill so we get the buff to fight the Demo unit on it's way, thinking poor tenno can't get any buffs because they need to kill me.

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 minute ago, XzWasPzX said:

DE, this is why you should enable a test server always, because without any other data than a forum post, people rages since they cant test builds or gameplay... Why I think you dont enable them? Because if so you couldnt slide those changes down our throats. Anyway, changes will have to be done before or after releasing the update, everything points in that direction.

Not sure I'd trust players to give good, clear, considered feedback. 39 pages of people mostly complaining that their particular style of play is gone with the wind, and many of them are questionable about their desire to see the game improve (there's some quite vitriolic posts indeed)

[(PSN)nerdlegend]

First glance this just straight up melee nerf with some band aid solutions. Loads to dislike in here and think we need level cap with balance around it. Some of the balance changes are well weird.

Berserker - More attack speed makes melee feel fluid with fun to use. Understand why you want to remove conditional effects but 

On 2021-06-18 at 3:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Attack Speed increases for Melee are part of what makes it so dominant. This is especially true when the conditions to reach animation-breaking Attack Speed are as simple as current Berserker: ‘on Critical Hit’. Infinite Attack-Speed Uptime is possible with a single Mod, and the result is animation noise with no distinction between hits, coupled with massive Damage output. 

We still want to support the ability to increase your Melee Attack Speed and Damage Output, just not to the levels you currently can.

Animation breaking attack speed comment, most builds never get close to that. Problem is most players feel current stances and attack speeds feel less fluid without attack speed. Think we need to revisit stances and do complete animation / stance rework again. Better yet here an idea how about more attack speed you get less powerful attacks but more often. You know add some variety into the mix and force players to pick. 

Infinite uptime to ways to address this make it so can't refresh it again or reduce the time. Problem here is even more conditional just makes every melee feel worse. None viable slow killing melees get even worse. Why would I not use any melee with just faster base attack speed to begin with. 

Again I think animation noise comes down to how stances and melee combat just works / damage output. Basically spam attacks are just as powerful as none spam for most weapons. Heavy attacks are slow compared to everything. 

On 2021-06-18 at 3:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Blood Rush:

Blood Rush’s maximum value is being lowered. This changes the achievability of consistent Red Crits from just one Mod (on most Melee weapons, some High-Critical exceptions), and now additional help will be needed via Mods, Arcanes, or Warframe abilities to achieve consistent Red Crits. 

One Mod alone generally delivering the best tier of Criticals felt too powerful.

Blood Rush is changing from:
+60% Critical Chance stacks with Combo Multiplier

To

+40% Critical Chance stacks with Combo Multiplier

Okay so growing theme here is don't like X mod being only one in use. So why not give us more options letting us pick between raw burst now or better scaling.  Also most weapons don't red crit all the time with just blood rush alone. At the moment this seems more like melee too good lets tone down melee over giving us more variety. After the nerf most people are going to use this mod, not fixing the problem here. 

On 2021-06-18 at 3:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Condition Overload

Condition Overload’s maximum value is being lowered. It’s been some time since we originally changed this Mod, and in this time we’ve decided we’re still not happy with the way this goes up against other Damage Mods (namely Primed Pressure Point). We’ve reduced this to 80% to make it almost as good as Primed Pressure Point, and 3 Status Types back to where it was originally. It remains true that even though the maximum potential damage is lower now, we think it is still an extremely powerful Mod in its latest iteration.

 

There should now be a more meaningful choice: do you want front loaded damage or a build up from multiple Status Types?

Condition Overload is changing from:
+120% Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target.

To

+80% Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target. 

Okay I think this is fine because we have options and not just the default best in class. Problem here is that status based weapons sort of get screwed over hard. Some elemental weapons don't have any other IPS or more than one element. Sort of want us to use primers in this case. Not a fan but compared to other changes I can see the logic here. 

On 2021-06-18 at 3:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Glaives

In late 2020, we reworked the Glaive melee class to be more powerful and comfortable to use. Overall, we feel these changes had their intended effect as weapons like the Glaive Prime skyrocketed from obscurity to the top of the pile with their newfound ability to inflict huge damage using heavy attacks.

However, these changes also introduced a common issue: players with high melee attack speed would sometimes accidentally throw their Glaives when trying to perform simple melee strikes, and the “catch and release” mechanic sometimes resulted in multiple unintended throws. In reviewing our Melee system, we felt it was a good opportunity to address this concern, while also doing a balancing pass to reflect the power in this newly reworked melee class.

That said, our two changes to Glaives go hand in hand: 

First, the heavy attack wind-up speed is being increased from 0.6 seconds to 1.2 seconds. With more time on the wind-up, it is much harder to accidentally throw when you are trying to swing.

With this increased wind-up speed, players are also more capable of performing quick throws. Right now the damage on quick throws is very close to fully charged, so in order to encourage more meaningful choice, our second change is to reduce quick throw damage to approximately 50% of the maximum charge. Exact number changes are as follows:

First I seen anybody talk about this at all. Seems more like nerf over QOL change. I don't understand these changes at all apart from quick throw damage. Rest of the changes are weird to me. 

On 2021-06-18 at 3:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Kuva Nukor

 

We are indeed touching 1 non-Melee item in the series of Nerfs, and likely to no one’s surprise it’s the Kuva Nukor. It’s a dominant Secondary with incredible power, which is warranted given its acquisition. It’ll keep all of its signature behaviour, but the general output is being notched down slightly with the following change:
- Chains targets reduced to 2 from 4

Can sort of see why you're doing this and it fair but would be smart to look at why people are using it and how. 

 

On 2021-06-18 at 3:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Primary and Secondary Weapon Arcanes

Why ignore three or more weapon classes with these arcanes. Just giant band aids right now and don't fix or the problem. Semi auto rifles suck, snipers suck and shotguns. 

 

On 2021-06-18 at 3:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

The general approach to these Galvanized Mods is that the unconditional upgrade is not quite as good as the non-Galvanized original, but the On Kill conditional increases them well above and beyond what is available with ‘conventional’ Mods in your Arsenal. These will be available from Teshin’s Steel Path Honors. 

I don't understand why you did not take this approach for melee weapons. More brand aid solutions

Also want us to play SP using none melee but mods are locked behind SP that makes it possible. Does not make any sense at all!

[XzWasPzX]

hace 1 minuto, (NSW)Greybones dijo:

Not sure I'd trust players to give good, clear, considered feedback. 39 pages of people mostly complaining that their particular style of play is gone with the wind, and many of them are questionable about their desire to see the game improve (there's some quite vitriolic posts indeed)

Thats why you select players, and put inside content creators too, you just dont let go inside anyone. 

[(PSN)GOTWIC]

18 hours ago, Astral_AEther said:

Another idea I got not long ago, was reversing the combo counter

I mean, high melee combo counter means you use your melee a lot...so why not make guns do gun things better the lower your melee combo is ?

 

Edit: fixed typos

That wouldn't work, that would just cause everyone to equip a melee weapon but never actually use it lmao.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, XzWasPzX said:

Thats why you select players, and put inside content creators too, you just dont let go inside anyone. 

You sound like you know who should go in

[XzWasPzX]

hace 1 minuto, (NSW)Greybones dijo:

You sound like you know who should go in

Actually I dont know which filters should be appropriate, that only question deserves an entire reflexion, which i havent done yet. So... seems you think too much.

[GREF_TM]

3 hours ago, tigerpup said:

These galvanised mods take 14 capacity which is very high

I'm afraid it's like that on purpose. To get "buffs", DE apparently want us to farm arcane enablers, arcanes, mods, then upgrade said mods for 20k endo/1kk creds each... doesn't it look a bit fishy to you? If their goal is to make us farm as much as possible, then it suddenly makes all the sense in the world why these mods not only are so expensive (even mods with base variant being rank 5 were made rank 10), but also have such high capacity cost - they want you to farm a bunch of formas (per gun) as well.

[(NSW)Greybones]

9 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

My Knell is a god gun already.

What I'm more concerned with is the change to Berserker going from on Critical Hit to  On Kill, playing Solo Disruption say on Steel Path and we need to find an enemy to kill so we get the buff to fight the Demo unit on it's way, thinking poor tenno can't get any buffs because they need to kill me.

 

Wait. Doesn't this mean you just shoot the thing instead?

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, XzWasPzX said:

Actually I dont know which filters should be appropriate, that only question deserves an entire reflexion, which i havent done yet. So... seems you think too much.

Sorry. You just made it sound so easy :P

[XzWasPzX]

hace 1 minuto, (NSW)Greybones dijo:

Sorry. You just made it sound so easy :P

I go step by step. First step: enable test server. Everybody agrees? Great, enable. 

Second step: who should go in and why? Ok lets talk... 

[Slayer-.]

9 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Wait. Doesn't this mean you just shoot the thing instead?

If you can't kill crap with your melee weapon how does it get the buff, have you tried to outright shoot the highest Steel Path Demo Unit? 

Edit:
Added my post for context.

[(PSN)GOTWIC]

4 minutes ago, GREF_TM said:

I'm afraid it's like that on purpose. To get "buffs", DE apparently want us to farm arcane enablers, arcanes, mods, then upgrade said mods for 20k endo/1kk creds each... doesn't it look a bit fishy to you? If their goal is to make us farm as much as possible, then it suddenly makes all the sense in the world why these mods not only are so expensive (even mods with base variant being rank 5 were made rank 10), but also have such high capacity cost - they want you to farm a bunch of formas (per gun) as well.

The thing is that if we assume that primaries with these new changes will be as good as melee weapons with these new changes, then the amount of effort required to get primaries (secondaries too) to that level is going be like 5-8 times as much as a melee weapon.

[Neo3602]

I do think these changes are nice, but I do think some gun starts need to get looked at, some guns are just not good, as well as the fact that you need far less investment to make melee weapons good where guns are going to need far more investment, grinding the new arcanes/mods and then putting lots for forma in the to fit the new mods in which are all really high cost on top of needing an Arcane Unlocker for each gun you want to use an arcane on.

Where as melee weapons get free mod points from stance mods which reduces forma cost to max out a weapon and they don't need an arcane unlocker to get the most out of a melee weapon along with an arcane you need to grind out 21 of to get it's full power.

it's a good step but some weapons need to be looked at as well as the investment needed for melee weapons vs primary/secondary weapons

[(NSW)Greybones]

3 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

If you can't kill crap with your melee weapon how does it get the buff, have you tried to outright shoot the highest Steel Path Demo Unit? 

I expect that's where the new mods and Arcanes come into play. Do you find the Alcolytes easier to kill?

[Keiyadan]

so galvanised diffusion loses 40% on the new mod but with kills can go up to 80% more hmm while the primäry loses 10% and can get 110% more

[Slayer-.]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I expect that's where the new mods and Arcanes come into play. Do you find the Alcolytes easier to kill?

Acolytes just die regardless of what I use. 

I'm hopeful for the new primaries but I'm also concerned as some of us like to just use melee. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, Slayer-. said:

Acolytes just die regardless of what I use. 

I'm hopeful for the new primaries but I'm also concerned as some of us like to just use melee. 

I'm sure people will adapt

[(PSN)Rayzoric-Umbra]

As an endurance runner my question is this since the wording seems to go towards supporting endurance runs a bit. Are we still going to get trade bans for long runs? A lot of us do runs for fun or hold them as clan/alliance events. And last update it shortened how long we were able to stay before bans. Let us actually do our long runs, have fun and chat like before as we set up. 

[Aldain]

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

I'm more surprised about Weeping Wounds not getting touched. Any weapon with 19% base status reaches 102% with that mod.

That's probably because Status on Melee is more of a bonus rather than a game-changer, since it hit like a truck with or without CO setup at most levels anyway.