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Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide


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What I want to know is if DE is going to address the problem of cramped mod capacity. With the addition of exilus weapon slots, high cost Primed mods, riven mods, and of course these new Galvanized mods it wont matter how much forma you put into a weapon, you just simply WONT be able to run all the mods on a build that isn't on a Kuva weapon. Not only that, but it kills being able to have multiple mod loadouts without having to build and forma a separate weapon entirely because you have all the slots polarized for a specific build. Primary and secondary weapons desperately need their version of Aura or Stance slots to allow players who want to invest a lot in their weapon--and have it perform the best it possibly can--will be able to actually do so.

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So I would like to point out that their reason for nerfing bloodrush is a straight up lie. out of 174 current melee weapons only 30 are able to even hit red crits with just blood rush and only 14 are able to do it with any consistency. Thats a fraction of the amount of melee weapons we have in the game. DE you need to check your math on melee crit chance. yah a large amount of it comes from BR but way more often then not melee weapons hit pretty consistent orange crits and never see reds without more help. 

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4 minutes ago, RealGremlinton said:

how do you overnerf glaives TWICE

how does DE not learn from past mistakes

Simple, we aren't allowed to have fun. They give us quite literally the most enjoyable weapon class the game has ever had, and now they're going to ruin it. DE seem to think nerfs need to stop people using things. Let us never forget what they did to the catchmoon, that gun is now complete and utter garbage. That represents their nerf philosophy. 

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The balances seems interesting, and the first steps to encourage firearms makes me want to try them out.
I have two questions though:
1°) Considering how headshot works (aka face-shot more than anything) and how confusing and frustrating it can be to use as soon as the ennemy is not directly facing you, do you have any plans about it know that you want to encourage precision shots?
2°) why is the video age-locked?


That being said, a few concerns:
1°) Even though I agree with the "give us more endo sinks please", I'm wondering if like 300 000k to dump into these mods coming out all at once isn't a bit much.
2°) How many levels are these new arcanes? There's a reason why most people don't get to the bottom of them on Deimos or the Arbitration or don't bother altogether. If you're putting out even more (and the fact that they drop on Acolites who had no drop pool aside from the obligatory steel essence is good), do you think it would generate confusion/ fatigue with arcanes? (also, some classification in the foundry interface by place of obtention (like Orphyx - Eidolon / Arbitration / Deimos / etc) would be nice).
3°) Arcanes with "melee kill = bonus primary damage" and the like already exist.
4°) Someone said it earlier, but with all the high-cost mods, builds using all that are likely to gravitate toward lvl 40 weaponry (and also the necessity of having several instances of the same weapon if we want different builds). An equivalent of stances/ auras would be nice to balance that.
5°) Someone also said it earlier but "worse mod but gets better on kill" isn't going to do much if the problem was to kill anything in the first place.
6°) Someone also said it earlier, but: having the arsenal divide showing up in StilPaf but being able to get the means to counter that in Steel Path means that as long as we haven't, spamming E will remain the most viable option. I understand why this is, but I fear this may be counterproductive, at least in the short term.

Edited by Morkislair
more things to say
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At face value this is nice, but this bothers me:

 

6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are changing Melee and Primary in for the singular purpose of making the combat experience more balanced, especially at high level play (Steel Path, etc). 

Perhaps the issue is that Steel Path was poorly done and poorly balanced?
Still, the divide exists regardless, but I can't help but feel that you just made every non steel path even less interesting with the jump in power creep, and there's no actual hard mode (SP ain't it and it's an island worse than all others). Yes, when you progress and "go back" enemies get weaker, but SP isn't progression, it's side content, when a good Hard Mode would be progression that didn't require me to go back to play on content that is universally relevant (Kuva, Relics, RJ, etc). Farming this items will likely be one of the worse things to do in the game due to how SP in one of the worst Islands in the game, and adding more items doesn't make it better, it makes it WORSE. What we need is a proper Hard Mode that reduces islands, not otherwise.

 

It's also worth noting that if the Arcanes don't limit "1 kill per shot", then you just massively buffed AoE guns a lot more than anything else (they can be buffed to max much faster, this matters too), you know, the other problematic gun type besides melee? Perhaps they should've got their own Arcanes.

 

While the actual balance changes are nice to see, I Can't help but feel this is mostly powercreep and not much actual balancing. Gun variety will continue to suffer unless properly balanced (you know, by tiers [MK-1>Vanilla>Variant ala Prime/Kuva/Syndicate/ETC] and not by MR), plus fairly disappointed in how this new system creates both powercreep AND artificial scarcity.

Edit: To also not that minus recoil is a very situational thing that more often than not something you don't need at all, so the Deadhead Arcane will often give an utility buff that most guns don't need, reducing the amount of buffs to 2, while Merciless gives 3 good and always useful buffs. This continues the trend of hurting non AoE/auto fire guns while benefiting everything else far more.

Edited by God_is_a_Cat_Girl
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hace 5 minutos, 21UnkNOWn12 dijo:

open test server please. there's too many risk for this

We shouldnt be asking for a test server, it should be opened days ago and the reviews raining like a storm...

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il y a 13 minutes, isti0258 a dit :

So, while i do agree with the the nerf, who thought that having more arcanes is going to be a good idea? Come on, everyone hates farming them, especially because you just dillute loot tables. If you can manage that the farm wont be a pain in the a.. then we'll see.. if not then im putting down warframe for the time being Good luck

To be frank, thoses arcanes seem to be on their own table, and their farm is quite linked to steel essence (which is going to be made faster). So this peculiar case seem to be alright, unless you already farmed 3000+ SE.

But in which case, please do take a break.

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1 minute ago, anfuerudo said:

DE: There will be no nerfs.

Also DE: "Melee Mod Nerfs"

Nuff said.

They explicitly said during a Dev Stream beforehand there would be small amount of nerfs

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2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Any Player who owns a Kuva Nukor will receive an extra 2 x Built Forma

SO my two fully ranked kuva nukors  thats 10 forma... you change and i get 2 forma? 

thanks....

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I love melee more than any Other Weapon type in this game. But These Change, Sound to me ver very annoying. As much as i love this game, the Lack of Story for the läßt 2 years and These Changes, really force me nearly never play this game anymore, because there is nothing to do. And if melee is getting nerfed instead of primär, secondary getting buffed I think I might even stop enjoing this last aspect. But lets See how Bad it is in game... 

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Berserker
Quickening (Quickening Fury? should also be exclusive with Fury and Berserker Fury. Increase Combo Count Chance on that to make up for the lower Attack Speed compared to the other mods.

Blood Rush
The problem about Blood Rush isn't about the amount of critical it gives. It's the amount of Combo we can achieve. Lower the combo to 5x instead of 12x instead. It will be faster to achieve, Heavy Attack (and Efficiency) will be more viable, and values will be less extremes from 0 combo to max combo.

Condition Overload
Go back to old value, but make it exclusive with Pressure Points. In builds we already choose one or another.

Glaives and Nukor
Well deserved. No complaints.

Everything Else
Great. No complaints. Hyped for the deliver!

 

Thank you once again for the great work!

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I overall like the changes, but a few observations:

Glaives:

I am not sure glaives needed the nerf though ,as only one glaive (prime) was popular cause of the forced slash procs on heavy explosions, the other glaives arent as good. i am not too enthused about the charge time increase either.

Arcanes:

I am also not sure about some of the arcanes to be introduced, the melee one clearly will just be a more convenient means to boost the primary damage (and don't we already have primary charger that does exactly the same thing?). i understand it is to give options but killing 3 enemies with headshots is significantly harder than just killing 6 enemies with melee. if it wasn't for the bonus reload speed and headshot multipliers i would say it was a DOA arcane , but it might work for a few niche weapons. So i am skeptical but i think it has potential.

I feel the ability to add bullets to the magazine would be a good third stat for deadhead instead of recoil. the + 100% Ammo max on merciless .... sounds as useful as ammo drum honestly , which is not at all.

Galvanised mods:

The galvanised mods are basically boosted acolyte mods , but i am a little unsure about the wording and stack criteria. hopefully will get better clarity later. As of now i assume it goes like this:

All galvanized mods are roughly 70% to 90% as effective as their regular counterparts (not sure why some are weaker than others from a maths perspective) without needing kills. Argon scope has 135% CC on headshot , galvanized scope has 120% on headshot; Split chamber has 90% MS always, Galvanzied chamber has 80% multishot always and so on.

Now when you get a kill an additional effect is added that lasts for a duration that can stack and be refreshed with each kill,

I am confused on some of the additional effects ,

CC mod keeps adding CC - OK, will work well on moderate to high crit weapons , not so well on low crit weapons

MS mod keeps adding MS - OK, will work well on most weapons

Status chance mod adds damage for each status - what? i mean thats cool and all but i am not sure i get the logic. shouldnt it just add more status and a separate CO equivalent for guns instead? guess it will give status weapons a damage boost on par with crit weapons.

This "on kill " condition is a bit of a problem cause regular guns already struggle to get kills at higher levels in steel path (except for the really good outliers anyway), so getting the on kill condition is not going to be as frequent , CO on melee has no on kill condition so i will most likely just keep killing with melee even after the nerfs. Unless the on kill condition is changed to something else i dont think they will be procing often.

It is an overall improvement , yes , but i don't think its going to be a drastic.

Would suggest to change at least the CC and MS effects to work "on hit" instead of "on kill" , the status mods are kinda acceptable if the other mods stack faster.

Also , why is there no stacking crit mod for shotguns? why do you hate crit on shotguns?

Edited by 0_The_F00l
More details after watching video
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3 things immediately come to mind for me:

1. Precision getting some love is great, the headshot arcanes are exciting.

2. I was hoping to see some sort of arcane or mod for causing targets to detonate on specific types of kills to bridge the gap between precision and AoE weapons, but no luck.

3. You claim to want to encourage people to use their full loadout of weapons in mission, but these kill stacking mechanics actively discourages doing so more than ever. I'm not actually super opposed to this myself since I tend to prefer sticking to a single weapon per mission, but I figured I'd point it out regardless.

Edit: I should add that everything else looks reasonable to me and the forma are appreciated.

Edited by Kanaima
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2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Arcane Slot Unlockers from Steel Path Honors

Nope, sorry, you shot your own rework in the foot with this. I don't need another slot that I have to unlock to get the full strength of my gun, much less one I'm going to have to grind arbitrations for. We've already got Exilus slots that have to be unlocked, and arcanes on secondaries are already free for kitguns. Why not carry that to all the weapons?

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Hot take because I’m on break at work:

Give the arcanes the same treatment you did rivens when they caused imbalance; vary their strength based on weapon usage and avoid skyrocketing the meta.

Edited by DrinkingRock
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Thanks for balancing

 

Berserker balancing is fair, stacking multiple AS mods isnt effective in the first place anyway.  Changing into melee kills made it fair for non-crit base melees.

Blood Rush balancing is fair, it has 60% bonus per combo while weeping wounds has 40%. either pulldown Blood Rush or buff Weeping Wounds. in the end, it works both way.

Throwing melee balancing is fair, too many people throws go boom, they dont even understand most primaries nor secondaries, because having throwing melee was enough. it discouraged players who want to explore other weapons.

Condition Overload nerf is fair. +120% per status type is overkill anyway

Kuva Nukor nerf is fair, I mean seriously, 1 shot = 4 target damage? there are tons of great secondaries, but overshadowed by nukor

 

new primary/secondary mods, we have yet to test when they are released. So far, all changes are fair in my opinion

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So what exactly is a "quick throw" with a glaive? I've never heard this term and the glaive rework workshop doesn't mention it.

Am I to understand that you have to hold the button to swap to your melee exclusively to get full damage now?

Edited by xcrimsonlegendx
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5 minutes ago, Wyrd_Oh said:

They explicitly said during a Dev Stream beforehand there would be small amount of nerfs

Yeah, turning Berserker from "on crit" to "on kill" in a game where Steel Path, with all its flaws and mechanics, exists isn't that small. Same goes for BR, CO and whatever else they will nerf or break, errr, sorry, "retroactively fix" in the process.

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