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Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide


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Il y a 3 heures, Shinyah a dit :

Instead of Primary/Secondary arcanes, "gun-stances" (only for the slot, no change for animations) would make more sense for uniformity and fairness compared to melee weapons.

Melee weapons with Orokin Catalyst : 60 + 10 (stance) = 70 points for 8 mods
Primary/Secondary weapons with Orokin Catalyst : 60 points for 8 regular mods and 1 exilus mod

 

"gun stance" sounds janky and weird, but "custom loads" sound like what we'd want and an appropriate equivalent for the melee stances.

the issue is DE would have to make innovative and interesting effects for that.

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I love the idea of the changes and it was a lot less melee and Nukor nerfs than I anticipated. I also love how the new arcanes must be earned through SP...especially since this whole issue is SP related, and the option system with the arcanes. It's an overall nice balance between the "OMG, everything is nerfed to the ground" crowd, the "my personal spread sheet calcs say..." crowd, and the "OMG, powercreep city!" crowd. There was never an end-all-be-all answer but I think DE did a remarkable job finding a middle ground. 

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20 minutes ago, TheLordOmega2 said:

"gun stance" sounds janky and weird, but "custom loads" sound like what we'd want and an appropriate equivalent for the melee stances.

the issue is DE would have to make innovative and interesting effects for that.

TBH when primary+secondary exilus mods came out I figured they would add capacity like auras/stances. 

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Still one thing missing I REALLY wish you'd take note of:

status is still a joke on single-shot weapons. A rapid-fire gun, high-multishot/spread gun, etc. can do 5+ status effects with ease in the span of 1/10 of a second. But a single-shot weapon with the highest status of the category (and low/no crit to match, so it's clearly supposed to be the focus) will be able to do... 1? MAYBE 2? With a greater delay to follow-up and add more as well. 

 

Base status chance for single-shot weapons (especially ones w/o crit to focus on status instead) needs to be dramatically buffed. as in triple digits at base. That would make them actually viable. Right now, they're not. And I'm sure your usage numbers reflect that.

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Not sure what to think about this, it feels strange that we need to kill enemies to get the buffs on the primaries/secondaries both for the arcanes and mods.

Personal opinion on what I think would be better:

1- Allow all the fire weapons (Primary and secondary) to have the same shot combo system that the snipers have, limit the combo up to x12, damage increases by 40% per combo up to 480%, 10 seconds combo duration, changes applied to all fire weapons, snipers included.
2- Possible arcane ideas: blood rush equivalent, weeping wounds equivalent, fire rate arcance, works with the combo as stated above.

Galvanized mods are actually good about the stats they present but the kill condition feels rather limiting since a lot of people will want to use this on the steel path 
and since those enemies bullet sponge, makes it really difficult to triger, if not downright impossible.

Possible changes about some of the galvanized mods:

1- Galvanized scope/croshairs: On headshot, 100% critical chance or damage for 10 seconds when aiming, subsequent headshots +40% critical chance or damage when aiming, stacks up to x5
2- Galvanized savy/shot: 80% status chance, on status applied, +50% damage per status inflicted, stacks up to 2x.


Berserker nerf opinion: Around 95% of the time, no one uses berserker along with primed (fury) or even quickening unless said weapon is ridiculously slow like the gram prime maybe, and even then, is a long shot someone would use it that way since we have arcane strike, no need to add that limiter.
Kill condition to triger the speed increase and the 5% decrease is not that much of a problem, however, the duration feels quite short, I think 15 seconds instead of 10 would be more balanced.

These are my personal thoughts on this topic, I don't expect this will be even listened to, much less implemented, just wanted to provide a different point of view.
Either way, this is a rough draft, most likely this would need to be rebalanced.

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58 minutes ago, zaturalma2 said:

I think you guys seriously missed everything with this workshop. When you announced that there will be changes you said that the ranged weapons will be buffed to be able to compete with melee. Now look at what you did:

  • agressively nerfed melee, basically killed it.
  • made every bonus to be 'on kill' which is idiotic, cause how are we supposed to kill anything in steel path without the melee crit buffs? We wont be able to activate the bonus damage of the galvanized mods. (and even if we manage to do it in sp we still have a problem against higher lvl enemies)
  • the new mods should not be new mods and definetely should not have 14 capacity requirement.
  • you locked these mods that are supposed to help with steelpath behind steel path
  • you nerfed yet again steel essence farm, because god forbit we wait for our smeetha buff 

So you were supposed to buff ranged weapons and yet you killed melee and nerfed a secondary gun (which is understandable, it was very powerful, but you were supposed to BUFF the ranged weapons. In summary: no usable buff, melee breaking nerfs. I hope you are not going to implement this because this is just insane

This.

Those new "galvanized" mods are literally buffed old mods just like how True Steel was updated to have 2x on heavy attack. 

If the mods in our inventory are getting nerfed, can't some others we already own be buffed to compensate?

No, we gotta grind for the buffed versions of mods we already own.

We have too much mod bloat. It's 2021 and we still have those bronze +30% IPS mods that are nothing but endo fodder.

 

Edited by DealerOfAbsolutes
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It is my opinion that the divide between primaries and secondaries is a thing because existing mods and warframe arcanes are already heavily skewed in favor of secondaries. Exceedingly few primaries scale well compared to secondaries because of this. Just compare Arcane Rage (15% on headshot for 180% dmg to primaries) vs. Arcane Precision (100% chance on headshot for 300% dmg to secondaries). On top of that, primaries also have lower multishot potential compared to secondaries, and also less potential crit boosts since Primed critical mods were created for pistols... If one were to lessen the divide between these two categories, it will be necessary to bring current primary mods more in-line with pistol options (and perhaps tone down secondary options as well), regardless of any new arcanes or mods.

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11 minutes ago, Finedaible said:

It is my opinion that the divide between primaries and secondaries is a thing because existing mods and warframe arcanes are already heavily skewed in favor of secondaries. Exceedingly few primaries scale well compared to secondaries because of this. Just compare Arcane Rage (15% on headshot for 180% dmg to primaries) vs. Arcane Precision (100% chance on headshot for 300% dmg to secondaries). On top of that, primaries also have lower multishot potential compared to secondaries, and also less potential crit boosts since Primed critical mods were created for pistols... If one were to lessen the divide between these two categories, it will be necessary to bring current primary mods more in-line with pistol options (and perhaps tone down secondary options as well), regardless of any new arcanes or mods.

Honestly, I never understood the separation of shotgun, rifle and secondary mods at all. Some mods are "primary" and can be used on shotguns and rifles. 

Just allow rifles and shotguns to use pistol mods and give the weaker versions extra utility effects like punch-through, or even something like % to Bleed.

Serration sounds like the sorta mod that makes things bleed.

Hornet Strike: +220% Damage

Serration: +165% Damage, On non-critical hit: 50% Chance to Inflict  DmgSlashSmall64.png.

Point Blank: +90% Damage, Within 5m: +270% Damage

 

 

Edited by DealerOfAbsolutes
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On 2021-06-18 at 9:58 AM, Sanchezjoax said:

Why are you even playing this game then lmao

Hey, remember that time when they released the Plains of Eidolon and you had to farm up the archwing nonsense so you could fly around the plains just like they advertised?

Just because the game is grindy already, does not justify adding further grind to it. That's like saying "McDonald's food is unhealthy, so if they make it more unhealthy, why are you even eating at McDonalds? It's already unhealthy, making it more unhealthy doesn't matter!"

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So apparently the youtube algorithm feels a certain way about this dev workshop. It got me laughing.

qEQT4Zp.png

Edit: I don't watch nerf videos, this is my youtube recommend for a video on this dev workshop.

Edited by Azimbee
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1 hour ago, TheLordOmega2 said:

"gun stance" sounds janky and weird.

To be fair, gunkata is a thing. And they could lean on that with different aiming stances if they really wanted. Like cross-arm dual-wield pistols.

But, yeah, different bonus effects for "armament" mods would be nice...

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5 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

To be fair, gunkata is a thing. And they could lean on that with different aiming stances if they really wanted. Like cross-arm dual-wield pistols.

But, yeah, different bonus effects for "armament" mods would be nice...

Gunkata Mods that add capacity would be amazing, could have cool animations too.

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Not sure if it's been mentioned before, haven't read through all the 42 pages of posts, but looks like Shotguns got the short end of the stick once again with Laser Sight not having a Galvanized equivalent, while Pistols and Rifles do. Intentional, or oversight?

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Really good changes. Especially the concept of broadening the power of guns, instead of only pushing it higher. Finally "different builds" might actually become a meaningful concept for guns, since we will actually have to select carefully which ones we want instead of simply cramming in the standard "OP"-set.

The last thing Warframe needs is that guns would become as broken as melee currently is. That is THE worst possible yardstick to use. 

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WARNING: CHERRY PICKED AND MISLEADING ADVERTISEMENT


The words used like "Extremely Small", "Minor", "Slight" changes, are completely false.

Reasoning: proportionality is NOT CONSIDERED.

Bloodrush losing 20% sounds small, but it's actually 33% nerf on the entire damage output

40% of 120% is also 33% nerf to final output damage, but Rebecca SPECIFICIALLY AVOIDED SAYING EITHER because saying 1/3 or 40% both sound bad.

Kuva Nukor chaining 2 less enemies is not an extremely small utility change. That's a 50% reduction to its unique mechanic because it goes from 4 to 2.

Halving damage and halving speed on thrown melee is actually 1/4 damage. Don't be fooled!

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21 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

Really good changes. Especially the concept of broadening the power of guns, instead of only pushing it higher. Finally "different builds" might actually become a meaningful concept for guns, since we will actually have to select carefully which ones we want instead of simply cramming in the standard "OP"-set.

The last thing Warframe needs is that guns would become as broken as melee currently is. That is THE worst possible yardstick to use. 

I...don't see how you got any of that from those mods and arcanes, everything shown is a straight upgrade over their vanilla counterparts and strictly push the power higher and not broader.

They're all strictly better than the regular versions of the mods they're based on, the multishot mods in particular go straight up to 200% and the status chance mods give a free 80% damage boost when an enemy has two status effects.

Primary/Secondary Merciless Arcanes are just 360% more damage with no realistic drawbacks, the only reason not to slot that into every weapon is because you have to unlock the slot through Steel Path.

If anything this will just make unga-bunga tactics with the Kuva Bramma or other such ranged weapons better than melee through raw multipliers alone.

Edited by Aldain
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On 2021-06-18 at 10:00 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

This is important because:

- It decouples it from Critical Chance.
- Adds a more defined ramp up using ‘On Kill’ instead of On Crit (which frequently meant 0 to ‘Max’ in one swing hitting 3 enemies).
- Renamed to Berserker Fury to communicate that it can no longer be equipped with Fury / Primed Fury. 

What this translates to is: DEAD MOD IN SLOT, for most boss fights. Primed Fury or bust. Attack speed on rivens to get around stacking limitation

On 2021-06-18 at 10:00 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Condition Overload

Condition Overload’s maximum value is being lowered. It’s been some time since we originally changed this Mod, and in this time we’ve decided we’re still not happy with the way this goes up against other Damage Mods (namely Primed Pressure Point). We’ve reduced this to 80% to make it almost as good as Primed Pressure Point, and 3 Status Types back to where it was originally. It remains true that even though the maximum potential damage is lower now, we think it is still an extremely powerful Mod in its latest iteration.

This mod was never good to begin with. It does more damage when you're already winning, and less to no damage when it matters. It won't work on sentients, it won't help if you're already killing using slash/viral anyways. This mod really should have been, 100% damage base, + 30% per status

On 2021-06-18 at 10:00 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Blood Rush:

 

Blood Rush’s maximum value is being lowered.This changes the achievability of consistent Red Crits from just one Mod (on most Melee weapons, some High-Critical exceptions), and now additional help will be needed via Mods, Arcanes, or Warframe abilities to achieve consistent Red Crits. 

 

One Mod alone generally delivering the best tier of Criticals felt too powerful.

This one's true, except I always had the impression that this is a high-risk-high-reward based off the need to maintain a melee combo counter. Having melee combo reset on expiry or on heavy attack meant that there are many restrictions to playstyle. In return, we get really good critical chance or nothing. To FORGET this tradeoff is to kill off this mod for regular melee focus builds while further pushing the meta towards heavy attack only play.

On that note "This one mod alone gets you red crits" is completely false because the effective use of this mod implies the use of BODY COUNT/DRIFTING CONTACT or NARAMON FOCUS

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4 minutes ago, -Damocles- said:

"This one mod alone gets you red crits" is completely false because the effective use of this mod implies the use of BODY COUNT/DRIFTING CONTACT or NARAMON FOCUS

To note, when they say that they likely mean that it makes any other crit chance mod completely obsolete because using Blood Rush+Combo Time Mod is better in every way.

Even Sacrificial Steel with set bonus would be lucky to get some weapons to 100%, Blood Rush meanwhile was getting some things things to red crits without the mod cost of also slotting Sacrificial Pressure as well.

Outside of heavy attack builds of course.

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Ive mained the flux rifle since it launched, and im really not seeing how any of this actually helps older fringe weapons.

The only time any of those weapons get a balance pass or looked at is when a new version is released. Its extremely disappointing to put so much work into a weapon to get it up to the level of haphazard modding on the good weapons.

I've got 9 forma in my flux rifle and a really strong riven and it just doesnt compete with other primaries like ignis wraith which can do everything the flux can but better with less effort and no riven.

 

While im excited for the parvos buffed flux rifle its also maddening cause now i need it if i want to use my favorite weapon.

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27 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I...don't see how you got any of that from those mods and arcanes, everything shows is a straight upgrade over their vanilla counterparts and strictly push the power higher and not broader.

They're all strictly better than the regular versions of the mods they're based on, the multishot mods in particular go straight up to 200% and the status chance mods give a free 80% damage boost when an enemy has two status effects.

Primary/Secondary Merciless Arcanes are just 360% more damage with no drawbacks, the only reason not to slot that into every weapon is because you have to unlock the slot through Steel Path.

If anything this will just make unga-bunga tactics with the Kuva Bramma or other such ranged weapons better than melee through raw multipliers alone.

Well, I beg to differ. I haven't cared about meta-building for ages, and it irritates the heck out of me that I currently have to give up "power" to achieve "flavor". Or end up with the same build on EVERY weapon. With three new mods on the level of primed mods (and beyond) but impossible (and illogical) to fit into a single "meta-build" due to mod space constraints, there is finally more options. Add in additional flavoring from the arcanes and a riven, and you can actually push different weapons in different directions. Just hoping DE also ADDS MORE RIVEN SLOTS to the game, so that you could actually play around with most (or all) of your weapons.

That guns get more power was sort of the stated purpose of this, so of course the mods are "upgrades". But the new galvanized mods are actually a bit more complicated than that, since they are time-based and we don't yet know how the refresh works: does every stack have it's own timer, or do they have the same timer (= can you refresh your max stacked effect by one kill every 20 seconds? Either way it will also affect how you play. It might not matter to meta-mission speed runners, but it matters to me. Running around with the same über-meta-setup became boring (to me) a long time ago, now it is all the Warframe sandbox-goodies that makes the game interesting. So more top-of-the-line mods (especially if you can't fit them all into one single weapon), new weapons (and warframes) to play around with (coming with Sisters of Parvos) and more riven slots (hopefully coming as well) is what I like. And NEED to keep on playing... 😜

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Bloodrush was nerfed a bit too much, 50% would've been fine, same goes to the CO.

The need to open an arcane slot for every single weapon seems a bit too much:
suggestion - if you apply 50 of these on a single weapon type - next ones after that gonna have them automatically ,
same goes for a weapon exilus .

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