Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, YakaFaucon said:

so i did some math, merciless arcanes + "condition overload" like galvanized mod with 4 status + 10 stack of viral we have a damage bonus a 1000%... seem fair! 

Now picture that on a Kuva Bramma with Hunter Munitions and Galvanized Chamber for 200% multishot.

[Rkaiser]

there goes my whole arsenal....yay....

[Kegnor97]

En 18/6/2021 a las 8:43, Boll dijo:

Who is going to play braton, athodai or Sh it like that when you can use staltha, spectra vandal or phage. You say 'We are changing Melee and Primary in for the singular purpose of making the combat experience more balanced, especially at high level play (Steel Path, etc). ' But it will make a even bigger gap between great weapon and the ones that are bad. 
Take each weapon, balance them for once and for all, do same things for rivens: gg
Melee nerf is really good tho but why would you stack attack speed mods when you have arcane/volt speed/ (insert attack speed buff)

Twiking every weapon stat would be very time consuming and inefficient because of the number of weapons, besides that, I eould like to address the fact that a lot of people seem to think that a balanced arsenal means every element being equally good when that is not the case: a balanced arsenal means that there is a correlation between player input and damage output, you can't posibly expect that a weapon like the braton that you can get as a starter or buy built with credits to have the same damage output as a kuva bramma that you need to get from a lich. Yes these mods may make them outstand even more but thats because most non melee were already outclassed by most regular melee in terms of player input-power output, and thats the gao they aim to close

[XzWasPzX]

hace 18 minutos, Aldain dijo:

Now picture that on a Kuva Bramma with Hunter Munitions and Galvanized Chamber for 200% multishot.

Hunter munitions shouldnt trigger arcanes, death comes from the slash proc and not the projectile. Thats important to know. 

[Aldain]

Just now, XzWasPzX said:

Hunter munitions shouldnt trigger arcanes, death comes from the slash proc and not the projectile. Thats important to know. 

True, but the initial blast from 3 Kuva Bramma bolts should kill something, the slash procs are just cleanup for a few of the more durable units.

[XzWasPzX]

hace 1 minuto, Aldain dijo:

True, but the initial blast from 3 Kuva Bramma bolts should kill something, the slash procs are just cleanup for a few of the more durable units.

For levels under 150? sure, it does kill something... 

[Aldain]

Just now, XzWasPzX said:

For levels under 150? sure, it does kill something... 

I'm talking with a fully ramped up Primary Merciless for 360% more damage on top of that...maybe with another 80% from Galvanized Aptitude and a smattering of Viral procs.

On paper that seems to go well past what it currently does, especially with 200% multishot from Galvanized Chamber.

[XzWasPzX]

hace 1 minuto, Aldain dijo:

I'm talking with a fully ramped up Primary Merciless for 360% more damage on top of that...maybe with another 80% from Galvanized Aptitude and a smattering of Viral procs.

On paper that seems to go well past what it currently does, especially with 200% multishot from Galvanized Chamber.

Additive or multiplicative bonuses?

[Lordofdecepticons]

I'm stoked for the changes, even though at first glance it may look a bit jarring. Nukor changes if anything is what I'm more optimistic due to the change of how many targets can get hit but as long as the overall stats aren't changed I would gladly still use. Though, I do wish it could had at least been nerfed down to 3 to still have some form of crowd control 

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, XzWasPzX said:

Additive or multiplicative bonuses?

Knowing DE? Both.

...Seriously I fully expect this to be utterly gamebreaking.

[JDxBarracka]

So for melee you get combos based on plain attacks but for Primaries and secondaries it has to be per kill ? In some case headshot kill  🤣

[Tiltskillet]

5 hours ago, SmokinDice said:

at 3 statuses applyed, it is as effective as primed preasure point as a damage increase. thats what it says. SO at 0,1 and 2 statuses you will deal less damage. and at 4+ statuses it will deal more damage. where before it was already better at only 2 statuses.

pretty simple to understand. nowhere is a mention of any caps....

I don't know what @[DE]Rebeccameant, but let's look at what she said:

We’ve reduced this to 80% to make it almost as good as Primed Pressure Point, and 3 Status Types back to where it was originally.

That's...a weird sentence.  PPP is 165, so she must have left out a few words.  So probably:

We’ve reduced this to 80% to make it almost as good as Primed Pressure Point at two unique status effects...

Ok, cool.  But then what does the second part mean?

and 3 Status Types back to where it was originally

That, despite the nerf, it's again better than  PPP at three effects?  Hopefully!  But it's strange that she didn't just say something like that and instead said "back to where it was originally". 

If she did mean something else, but didn't mention a cap, why worry about that specifically?  Because "originally" in the Melee 3.0 CO nerf, they said they were going to cap it at....wait for it... three status types.  That didn't actually happen when it went live, but IIRC that was a patch day surprise.

Anyway, it's probably just odd wording and nothing more, but confirmation of that from a dev won't hurt anybody.  

 

 

[XzWasPzX]

Justo ahora, Aldain dijo:

Knowing DE? Both.

...Seriously I fully expect this to be utterly gamebreaking.

So you just dont know, as everybody, cause we all dont know, and that simple difference has the size of Jupiter in what concerns to the final result. 

[DeepskyScorpion]

So halving what kuva nukor can do is "slight" now? 

[XzWasPzX]

Justo ahora, DeepskyScorpion dijo:

So halving what kuva nukor can do is "slight" now? 

Yeah that one is funny xD

 

"50% effectivity nerf, a minor, extremely small change" xD

[(PSN)RWalls91]

So I slept on these changes, dwelled on them today and have come to a conclusion. As I said yesterday, and has got the most upvotes I think I've ever had on one of my posts, these changes suck. And heres why:

First off having to play steel path to unlock mods and arcanes to buff guns so you can use them in steel path is mentally astounding. It's an idiocratic loop, and when we could kill things on steel path with melee before you're now going to hit melee to make steel path harder until we grind to get these gun upgrades, in your theory to make steel path gunplay the way to go. Now you said you wanted to give us arsenal choice, but here you're forcing us the gun direction. Or at least that's your logic- the truth is people will still use melee even in its weaker state and will work around the nerfs by using a smaller meta of melee weapons than before, not what is fun but what works, aka like the situation with the kuva nukor. If this isn't clear you aren't diversifying out arsenal, you're limiting it. Luckily my favourite melee is somewhat saved by a riven, but i might as well just take my heavy attack pennant and be done with it from these changes. As berserker is on kill it is now no longer worth using for steel path, and is less likely to be used in meta builds henceforth, which again is counterintuitive to your goals. The buff time is too short and against the stupidly spongey grineer on steel path, which let's be honest is what people are modding to beat as corpus and infested are not really steel path issues, berserker won't be effective.

Secondly nerfing the maximum dps and damage we can do via condition overload, attact speed and blood rush is only going to make killing steel path grineer only harder, and on kill gun buffs will not work in the slightest to remedy the situation when they can't kill anything in the first place (well some can but back to that shortly). My point is the underlying issue is the fact grineer on steel path have huge damage reduction which relies on use armor stripping, bypassing armor entirely with slash procs and because you increased all the enemies health we need to crank up our damage. Now you're attempting to fix a problem you created by making it worse.

You're nerfing the kuva nukor because it's overused, instead of looking at why it's overused. People want to max condition overload by using the nukor for it's status and CC because we need the high damage output to deal with the sponges you created. If you were to nerf it's damage, people would still use it as a primer. If you were to nerf it's status chance people would move to the next best primer, and would complain then nerf that too. If you make a game made with sponges, you can't complain when this effectively forces people to play a certain way. There will always be a meta, and you can only diversify it by giving people options. These melee nerfs limit our melee options, and these gun 'buffs' will only be useful for a handful of options, again limiting our arsenal.

Now here's the funny part. I myself am a nukor user, and I find the gun very fun even in steel path because it is one of the few guns that can deal with steel path enemies. Now you're nerfing my melee, and providing galvanised mods that will buff damage output as well as arcanes that can further increase damage. These mods are expensive, and in no way shape or form will I now think i'll go grab my lex prime and forma it like a madman so I can use it on steel path by using these new mods and arcanes, I will use weapons that are already effective and that I have already forma'ed up. And because the mods require so much capacity on guns which already have space difficulty, I will very likely use a kuva weapon for the extra capacity. Now do I have a good kuva weapon that can kill steel path enemies, that I have already put forma in, and will benefit from the condition overload style mod for secondaries? You see you nerfed the nukor because it's overused, but this update will not encourage me to diversify my arsenal, it will actually just encourage me to go use my nukor with more multishot and more damage and just kill steel path with that. So you're not disencouraging the reliance on the nukor at all, but in fact quite the opposite. That 4 to 2 target chaining won't matter if the enemies are dying quicker. And as a side note this also means I won't be parazon'ing them, because lets be honest nobody thinks oh i must use blood for energy!

Nukor and melee debuffs aside a second, you'll also be encouraging people to play slash meta melee. Lets the procs work instead of having diverse gunplay, or diverse melee play. This workshop, and this should be fairly evident by the response you've got, is illogical and is creating a lot of negativity and salt. The melee nerfs are over the top, not saying you shouldn't have nerfed melee at all, maybe a little was or is required but let me remind you, you're the ones who released melee 2.9 and buffed every single weapon by a very large margin in the first place.

If you didn't want melee to become the go to, then you shouldn't have buffed them as much as you did, but removing that buff when it's at an ok place for steel path is not the answer. If you overbuff guns the same way like you're about to do with some of these mods and arcanes you're only going to have the same problem in a years time. And it will only be a handful of guns at that due to the on kill mechanic when guns can't kill grineer on steel path as it is.

The real issue is that grineer on steel path are more challenging than the other 2 factions. In fact anything with armor is the issue we have to mod for. If you want us to diversify our arsenal and use guns then give guns the same options as melee, or tone down grineer damage reduction so we don't have to focus on high power slash procs which melee provide. As the gun 'buffs' here don't really buff guns except things like the nukor which the exact opposite of what you want, and we're getting melee nerfs, all we're really getting is nerfs.

This workshop clearly needs more work and development time, and take community feedback into account. I would strongly advise that this is decoupled from sisters of parvos so you can ship it sooner, and you can take more time to get this right. This also goes for the atrocious helminth invigoration system and the parazon workshop. I think I speak for a large portion of the community when I say we would rather see it done right rather than rushed.
 

[Surbusken]

39 minutes ago, Kegnor97 said:

Twiking every weapon stat would be very time consuming and inefficient because of the number of weapons, besides that, I eould like to address the fact that a lot of people seem to think that a balanced arsenal means every element being equally good when that is not the case: a balanced arsenal means that there is a correlation between player input and damage output, you can't posibly expect that a weapon like the braton that you can get as a starter or buy built with credits to have the same damage output as a kuva bramma that you need to get from a lich. Yes these mods may make them outstand even more but thats because most non melee were already outclassed by most regular melee in terms of player input-power output, and thats the gao they aim to close

Is that why they invested all that time into rivens? Because they can't be bothered? If they aren't concerned with weapon performance, what are we all doing here?

I think it's fair to expect the game to be fun and make you want to play it. Based on that, you can do anything with mods, stats, levels and so on, it just has be fun is all.

Mods' level could be MR locked. Certain mods could be MR locked. You could be allowed to have a dynamic skin system. You could be allowed to mod weapons indefinitely behind an insane grind.

There is no one saying base weapon damage, or anything in the whole game has to be anything, it's a video game, in the fantasy genre. Is it fun? Yes/no. Are you going to make it fun? Yes/no.

And that's that.

The mechanics aren't an institutionalized, universal constant stone tablet passed down through generations, envoking the wrath of the gods if you dare change something.

It's just a notepad edit bro, if it doesn't work hit delete.

Warframe used to want to pride itself on pushing forward, taking risk and being creative, what happened to that?

 

The thing about bad weapons stats for me, is people can't play with the weapons they enjoy. Too bad for you that weapon was ruined in notepad.

To me a video game is all about player choice, so it doesn't sit right with me, the game decides on the few weapons you can use. The players should decide which weapon they want to use, not the developers. Artificial powercreep to sell flavor of the month, no thanks.

A weapon took time to create, coded into the game, can earn the game money, adds variety and interest, where you have people who might like the skin, design, sound effect or whatever. What possible reason are you going to offer, to not take advantage of that after the fact? "It's too much work" is that the excuse you are going with?

Go on then, throw them in the trash. Let's just trash everything that's too much to deal with, super philosophy let's see if it pays off for 'em cotton

 

[basvard]

Here's a suggestion on balancing primary & secondary to match melee mod capacity.

Unlocking the weapon exilus slot adds 5 mod capacity, and with a potato it doubles to 10, bringing it to 70 mod capacity.

This, fortunately or unfortunately, depending on side of opinion aisle, will give Kuva weapons a 90 mod capacity, exceeding the Paracesis, the inspiration to Kuva weapon mod capacity's mechanics. (DE can of course make exception to not grant this additional 10 mod capacity to Kuva weapons).

[UdsUds]

On 2021-06-18 at 10:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

You’ll be able to get the Arcane Slot Unlockers from Steel Path Honors, whereas the Arcanes themselves drop from Acolytes in the Steel Path! The spawn frequency of Acolytes is also being increased, meaning you’ll get more Steel Essence, as well as more chances for the Arcane you want. All Acolytes will drop them!  

Along with this NEW "Arcane Slot UNLOCKER" can a Primary/Secondary Mod Capacity be increase as well when using said UNLOCKER?

[(PSN)TONI__RIBEIRO]

3 minutes ago, UdsUds said:

Along with this NEW "Arcane Slot UNLOCKER" can a Primary/Secondary Mod Capacity be increase as well when using said UNLOCKER?

[MyDadLeftMe69]

So like a lot of people have brought up is the new mods will exasperate the already forma hungry ranged builds. Melee have a pretty big advantage in stance mods giving extra capacity. Would it be possible to convert the exilus slot into a similar spot as the stance slot. It would really help with some extra capacity and bring up guns to melee.

[(PSN)RWalls91]

7 hours ago, TheLordOmega2 said:

"we want to make guns better, but first let's nerf the only really good gun in the game"

What are you guys even smoking?

Melee nerfs, mod incompatibilities, arcane bandaids...

You straight up admitted that the gun/firearms mods aren't good enough but instead of buffing them directly you add a better version with a high drain and a wind up gimmick, amazing...

And even more fun, you broke the corrupted mods by making us unable to equip them with their normal ones, when those could have become a staple of gun tweaking/optimizing.

Give us an extra mod slot or two, buff the base stats, add cool mechanics instead of windups and nerfs.

You got it right once with the melee revamp, but it looks like you are trying really hard to undo that. Don't.

I can't agree more,, especially that last line. The whole workshop is illogical, although I think galvanised mods maybe might be a step in the right direction in regards to buffing guns, but there's more work to do.

[(PSN)RWalls91]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)l Saminator l said:

Least some of the new mods and arcanes can trigger in other ways. Such as on hit, on headshot, on melee kill, etc. 

Kill things with melee to empower your gun! Then use your gun to kill enemies! Then use your melee to buff your gun again!

While I can see sometimes this could be fun, but why not just kill things with your melee if you can already do it? Don't have to farm arcanes either.

[(PSN)GeneralDecoy]

Just going to add my two cents and my plans going forward with these proposed changes.

 

Galvanized Mods:

Only the multishot ones are likely to be used for my builds.  Galvanized Scope is basically a stacking Argon Scope, which provides less crit chance than Point Strike.  Even with the chance for higher crits, I won't sacrifice mobility for a chance at higher numbers.  I'll stick with my builds, but sacrificing a little multishot for larger gain is a fair trade-off.  The shotgun and secondary multishot Galvanized mods need a bit of a buff to keep them in line with Galvanized Chamber (-40% multishot vs -10% multishot).  None of the status chance Galvanized mods will be used.  The Elemental/Status Chance mods provide sufficient status chance overall for me.   To make Galvanized Scope and Galvanized Crosshairs more viable, I think it should be +120% Crit Chance, with +40% Crit Chance on kill (stacks up to 4x).

 

New Arcanes:

Likely useless for eidolon hunts, but not needed anyway.  Fortunately, there is plenty of Corpus trash for Profit-Taker, but activation with Exploiter could be problematic.  Are all the buffs on a timer or just the stacking damage?  Why not modify Arcane Rage and Arcane Precision to be more beneficial instead?  I'm more inclined to use the Merciless and Deadhead arcanes, but the melee synergy is useless for me. 

 

Nerfs:

Kuva Nukor - I expected this and it's late.  It's very hard to not see this one coming when the other Kuva secondaries suck by comparison.

Mods - Why?  Seriously, why?  What was the expectation with making powerful mods easily obtainable by new players?  None of the Acolyte mods should have been added to the Deimos Bounty reward tables.  These nerfs will have very little impact for me because I planned ahead.  My damage will go down a bit, but my builds won't change.

 

Final Thoughts:

Gollum is not going to win a beauty pageant if you smack Ms. America in face with a bat.  To shrink or eliminate that divide, more of the same will not work.  Stacking crit, damage, multishot mods can work, but the conditions to activate the buffs have to be simple like the melee mods.  Combo Count is easy to build and easy to maintain.  What's easy to do with primaries and secondaries?  I would be much more inclined to use mods that buff crit chance and multishot for X seconds every time a status effect is applied.  Even something comparable to Condition Overload for primaries and secondaries will be useful.  Why not Viral/Status Chance, Gas/Status, Corrosive/Status Chance, Blast/Status Chance, Magnetic/Status Chance, Radiation/Status Chance mods while we're on the topic?  These would actually free up some mod slots for other mods.

[(XBOX)Foighne]

I’ve just realized those mods are all 10-rank. Let’s be generous and assume they have to same upgrade cost as regular, blue, 10-rank mods, that’s like 270,000 endo and who knows how many credits just gone. Then we also have to buy the darn things from Teshin, using our freshly nerfed melee weapons to grind out the steel essence. This doesn’t feel like a primary/secondary rework so much as “Really bad Melee nerfs, and a few Arcane Bandaids and some mods that are way too expensive to acquire and rank up.” The on kill requirements are also extremely aggravating. Berserker’s nerf is going to make super slow weapons like Fragor Prime useless in steel path unless you use the helminth system to throw war cry on your Warframe. I’d start small by removing all the nerfs apart from Kuva Nukor’s and see how things turn out. I’m certain status spreader weapons are the problem, not condition overload.