Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide

[AziSlays]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)WolfieKidd060 said:

Take the corinth for example. You unlock it at MR8. Corinth Prime, MR14. Regular Corinth can still outperform Corinth Prime. The damage is the same, yet the regular Corinth has better fire and reload speed.

Corinth Prime has 4x the mag capacity, reloads the full mag at once, ~50% higher status chance, a faster fire rate, and 4x as much grenade damage. I don't understand where you're getting the idea that it's worse than the base weapon and you're blatantly wrong about the fire rate bit.

[(PSN)WolfieKidd060]

3 minutes ago, AziSlays said:

Corinth Prime has 4x the mag capacity, reloads the full mag at once, ~50% higher status chance, a faster fire rate, and 4x as much grenade damage. I don't understand where you're getting the idea that it's worse than the base weapon and you're blatantly wrong about the fire rate bit.

Yeah, I noticed that I was wrong about the fire rate thing. But even though it reloads the full magazine at a once, if need be, you can fire off shot after one reload with the regular Corinth

[Lutesque]

On 2021-06-18 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Primary and Secondary Weapon Arcanes

😲 !!!!

On 2021-06-18 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Our goal is to encourage you to use your entire Arsenal in-mission. Switching between Primary, Secondary, and Melee weapons should feel like valid and strategic options, in contrast to the uncontested Melee dominance that exists in the current meta.

I just want to add that even if Melee was only Slightly more powerful than Ranged Weapons.... The nature of how the combo mechanic punishes you for when you stop using your Melee could also be a contributing factor in the the lob sided usage Stats.

The same is true for the opposite. While some people might continue to use Melee out of fear of losing their Combo.... Others (such as myself) will simple not bother with Melee to begin with because of the fact we need to build up that Combo before Melee can compete with guns....

Yep.... I wouldn't want to be you guys right now.... I'm incapable handling anything even remotely close to this level of Delicate Balancing 😱 !!!!

On 2021-06-18 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Beserker Fury, cannot stack with Fury.
On Melee Kill:
+35% Attack Speed (Max 70%)  for 10s. Stacks up to 2x. 

My deepest Concern here is with The Duration.... As I mentioned Previously.... People feeling like their are locked into using Melee Exclusively is one of the concerns.... 

On 2021-06-18 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Adds a more defined ramp up using ‘On Kill’ instead of On Crit (which frequently meant 0 to ‘Max’ in one swing hitting 3 enemies).

Oh Dear....

Okay Sooo... I'm a proud member of relatively small group of players who actively avoid anything with the Phrase "On Kill" attach to it on the basis of... And I quote: "If I'm already killing enemies then I don't need this effect in the first place."

And that's all il say on the matter.... 

On 2021-06-18 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

There should now be a more meaningful choice: do you want front loaded damage or a build up from multiple Status Types?

I'm a Front Loaded Guy through and through.... That's why I like Guns 😁 !!!

On 2021-06-18 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

There’s reload times, magazine sizes, and more

That's what I want more than anything 😭 !!!!

Well.... That and Consistency.... 

On 2021-06-18 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Arcanes themselves drop from Acolytes in the Steel Path! The spawn frequency of Acolytes is also being increased, meaning you’ll get more Steel Essence, as well as more chances for the Arcane you want. All Acolytes will drop them!  

But aren't Acolytes annoying especially when they get super Tanky 🤔 ?

And while we're on the subject.... Melee is getting Nerfed but Ranged Weapons are getting Buffs.... But not in the form of Stat Changes like the Melee nerfs.... The buffs are coming in the form of Loot.... That drops in content where those weapons Specifically performed so badly that they started this whole Fiasco.... 🤔

I think to describe this Process as "Mildly Concerning" is a huge understatement....

On 2021-06-18 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

PRIMARY MERCILESS

On Kill:
+30% Damage for 6s. Stacks up to 12x.
+30% Reload Speed
+100% Ammo Max

The more you kill, the more damage you can build up. Groovy!

And now I feel glued to my Primary 😐 ....

I mean... Yeah the power you get out of it encourages you to use your Primary.... That's good.... The concern however is there's no incentive to stop and using something else 😱 !!! Sounds Familiar ?

On 2021-06-18 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

PRIMARY DEXTERITY

On Melee Kill: +60% Damage for 20s. Stacks up to 6x.

Oh.... That's it ? 

I was hoping for more....

Not more Stats.... More Arcanes that encouraged you to Switch....

On 2021-06-18 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

Ultimately each Arcane stacks up to the same amount of damage, but it’s how you choose to get there that counts. Precision? Spray and Pray? Melee synergy? Your choice!

Makes Sense.... The issue is where this Choice occurs.... In Both the Arsenal and Gameplay.... Or just the Arsenal.... 

The Dexterity Arcanes allow for Both but Merciless and Deadhead (I love that Word 😝) only seem to Matter in the Arsenal and do the exact opposite of what they were created for in Game Play 😱 !!!

On 2021-06-18 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

9 new mods.... And Galvanized Scope/Crosshairs are the only 2 that Function without Requiring Kills.....

You know what... I'm just happy they exist.... It would have sucked if those were On-Kill mods too 😱 !!!

On 2021-06-18 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

•  

• Any Player who owns a Kuva Nukor will receive an extra 2 x Built Forma.

LoL... You know... This is actually very sweet of you guys 😁 !!!

On 2021-06-18 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Where do the new Arcanes Drop?

- Acolytes on The Steel Path have a 100% chance to drop 1 of the 6 new Arcanes. 

Well... The Guaranteed Drop Chance will help alleviate the frustration of dealing with these Acolyte before we get the goodies that make them less annoying to deal with.... 

59 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

 

Meta weapons literally sit on top of these extra multipliers like a high rise building looking down on the crit-pples.

Raising the ground doesn't change this fact.

That's a Killer Metaphor 😲 !!!

 

[quxier]

On 2021-06-18 at 11:55 PM, (PSN)waterdog77 said:

You have better luck with quickening and arcane strike together instead

Probably answered but Primed fury gives 55% (if you have it) and that's what people would use.

[(PSN)WolfieKidd060]

1 minute ago, quxier said:

Probably answered but Primed fury gives 55% (if you have it) and that's what people would use.

It made literally no sense for them to do beserker like that

[(PSN)Alphonso-Alonso]

16 minutes ago, FepoCg said:

Actually I really don't understand DE at this point and I think I will never would, instead of butchering melee on SP it was way easier to buff already existing mods, like Serration for example, if you want primary weapons actually working on SP, why not just take Serration and add it a secondary effect, for example.

Serration: 165% Damage (400% on Steel Path)  The % us just an example but is way better than add Arcanes and new mods, that most of them trigger the effect ON KILL where in SP mob is basically sponge bullets, not to mention all this new stuff you actually have to farm it on SP so thanks DE? for making us grind a game mode that most people doesn't even like? and this time is gonna be even harder with all the nerfing =l!!   I don't even want to imagine all the millions of credits and endo you would need to fully upgrade them btw.

Also doesn't adress the main problem here, still you would see just a few primary weapons that actually will work on SP if all this actually works in the end, and normal weapons like a braton prime for example would still not do any damage at all to the enemies in SP. 

Dude this would be interesting. 
 

It’s like if the Tenno stole Alad V’s technology and created their own Amalgam mods.

Hate Mandatory mods? Combine them. The compromise might be at random but you free up a mod slot and capacity to further advance your load out and try new stuff!

I wish the Devs remembered how fun it was to be MR 7 or 8 and just throwing stuff at the wall to see what stuck. 
 

Hek, I would take an L just to do something stupid like make a “Sinister Serration” to increase damage AND range of a beam weapon with a minor hit on damage percent (150% boost instead of 165%). I dunno just spitballing. 

[LordOfThePovos]

This is a lot to do at once. I find this excessive. Maybe if you really want to obliterate melee do it over time to give the community to adjust. This is and will cause further uproar since it is messing with a big pillar of gameplay.

[Alavaris]

I must say, i'm not looking forward to these changes. Slightly adjusting some mods, okay, but this reads as massively nerfing melee instead of bringing guns up to the same level. 50% nerf on glaives? They were finally fun to use and actually had a purpose in some kinds of missions over other melee weapon choices, I guess now they'll collect dust again. As for the strategic choices on which weapon to bring to a mission, it doesn't always have to be a life and death struggle. Challenges are good, but sometimes you just want to chill with friends and melt some enemies away. Nerfing entire concepts on how to build and use weapons can't be a good solution. I'd rather say something positive here, but tbh this is the first update in a long time that I'm not looking forward to at all. Please DE, take your time with finishing this update.. maybe a few years or so. 

[(PSN)Cyotis]

Whoa! I was really worried.  But none of these nerfs effect my builds. And I am doing high end WF content just fine so we are good. I am looking forward to my guns being more powerful! Way to go DE!

[Dairaion]

On 2021-06-18 at 9:03 PM, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

Oh really? That's all? Not terrible. It'll still kick ass

It's not the fact that it's not as bad as we thought it would be, it's the principle of blindly nerfing something because it's popular. it's lazy and misguided. it's a fun gun and needs to stay the way it came, I killed a lich and should be rewarded for it, the fact it's so well used is just a sign that the PC crowed has access to stronger weapons because we've been around so long.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

If the gun mods we already owned aren't getting buffed and are getting power creeped by galvanized versions, can the drain costs on all gun mods be reduced by 1 or 2 across the board?

Non-Kuva weapons won't be able to fit everything with 8 forma.

Hek, maybe those +30% IPS mods will actually be used by new players if they cost like 4 to slot at max rank. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

19 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

If the gun mods we already owned aren't getting buffed and are getting power creeped by galvanized versions, can the drain costs on all gun mods be reduced by 1 or 2 across the board?

Non-Kuva weapons won't be able to fit everything with 8 forma.

Hek, maybe those +30% IPS mods will actually be used by new players if they cost like 4 to slot at max rank. 

🤔 You reckon? For me it's the fact that there's only so many slots that has me rarely use them for high-level content

edit: Oh wait, you said "New". My bad

...Hang on, I used those all the time when I was new

[Shemarria]

26 minutes ago, Alavaris said:

I must say, i'm not looking forward to these changes. Slightly adjusting some mods, okay, but this reads as massively nerfing melee instead of bringing guns up to the same level. 50% nerf on glaives? They were finally fun to use and actually had a purpose in some kinds of missions over other melee weapon choices, I guess now they'll collect dust again. As for the strategic choices on which weapon to bring to a mission, it doesn't always have to be a life and death struggle. Challenges are good, but sometimes you just want to chill with friends and melt some enemies away. Nerfing entire concepts on how to build and use weapons can't be a good solution. I'd rather say something positive here, but tbh this is the first update in a long time that I'm not looking forward to at all. Please DE, take your time with finishing this update.. maybe a few years or so. 

this👆

 

[(PSN)WolfieKidd060]

The kuva weapons will be the new meta.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

10 minutes ago, (PSN)WolfieKidd060 said:

The kuva weapons will be the new meta.

They already were.

[(PSN)WolfieKidd060]

1 minute ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

They already were.

They were? I thought I was the only person who didn't use them for mr fodder

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

20 minutes ago, (PSN)WolfieKidd060 said:

They were? I thought I was the only person who didn't use them for mr fodder

Kuva Bramma got nerfed for being meta.

Kuva Nukor is going to get nerfed for being meta.

With the new arcanes, they're going to be more OP than pre-nerf.

[IsaacPrime]

use " on kill " to trigger? for real! 

Look it's ok if you play solo but if you play in team of 4 so you need to fight for kill between your teammate to get that buff to stack up? 

The enemy right now is weak enough to be slaughter all by one man power there is no meaning to team up for the mission any more. 

And now you try to give us this Arcane and Mod to make gunplay rival the other but this concept mod is not right. 

The base stat of Galvanized Mod are lower than original Mod until you success on trigger a buff, that mean the gun that use Galvanized Mod will be weaker at first and you need to kill to make it stronger that can be interrupt easily with nuke abillity or weapon in team play, and if I can use other weapon or abillity to kill at first so why I need to use that gun any more? if it can't get stronger by it self. 

Don't forget the matchmaking system that your game have want us to play together, so don't force us to play alone. You can use "on hit" or at least "on head shot" and it even better if you can use " on kill / assist" many game have it, so plz consider this and improve more for team play experience.

 

[Slayer-.]

 

8 hours ago, Leaky said:

I agree with the people that say blood rush should be 50% and their reasoning.  I am concerned about "Berserker Fury" switching to on kill from on critical hit due to times when fighting a hard enemy without trash mobs around, maybe make that a new mod while making the other changes to berserker.  Additionally, I am curious if glaives will survive this nerf, though I have rarely used them.

since some people are adding hours played to their comments: 2836 hrs played

I have played for awhile and had this as my only consistent long term game.

Yes Berserker is a concern with it On Kill, I'll wait and see how it pans out, I'm a melee player, guns are for something different now and then. 

 

[LiquidAtom]

Well damn. Looks interesting.

First of all, are the galvanized mods like amalgam ones, meaning they can't be equipped together with some similar counterpart?

Secondly, the on kill buffs. Looking mostly at berserker. There are a bunch of slower melees - mostly heavies. While i do agree with the fact that berserker as it is right now is quite powerful, slapping it on any melee and it will do good. And we want build diversity. But changing to 'on kill' might make it a bit more less useful especially in steel path?

Then, the glaives. Everything that was said about glaive changes is weird to me. Never 'accidentally' thrown it instead of simple attack.

Next, changing blood rush means some melees will not be red critical hit capable. In terms of power level, i'm fine with the nerf. However, RIP satisfying colorful damage numbers. Same goes for kuva nukor. RIP satisfying chain popping enemies.

And lastly, i find this whole buffs/nerfs thing a bit ironic, don't you ? At first community asked for a 'new endgame' where it would be challenging but with better rewards. We got steel path. And that is completely fine. Now everyone acknowledges that we need buffs to do the steel path. Yes, melee overall is getting nerfed, but regardless it will still be the quite the powerhouse.

Overall, looking forward for the new stuff mostly. A bit worried about all the 'on kill' buffs to be in similar situation to what i've said about berserker. Hopefuly not.

[Slashz]

let's face it, no matter what you try to change people will always look for efficiency doesn't matter if you add new cool arcane that require you juggle between weapons, people will switch to the next best thing and stick to it, instead of trying to nerf that/buff this, just make weapons comes to equal grounds then there people will have options of saying yea it doesn't matter now anything get the job done, and then it become a matter of preference and weapon of choice.

But at the moment you can only see the top weapons that people bring to high end missions or really high scale of enemies, the first question to ask is can you achieve the same results with all the weapons or most weapons or how many weapons can make the cut to this level of enemy scaling.

[Frendh]

I really dislike the melee nerfs. All of them horrible. Not going to stop playing.  But probably going to reduce my game time by 80%-90%. Just do the bare minimums. Doing 20 rounds of disruption is fun now. But with the nerfs it is going get really tedious. My death rate will be the same. Just going to take a lot longer to get to round 20. 

And I feel sorry for the Glaive player minority. Should just let them have their big numbers(in relation to normal melee).

[Jhura]

There are major problems with this "buff" to guns though:

• So we need to now do Steel Path so our guns are able to do Steel Path, which is pointless when melee can be Steel Path ready without going there first. Recursive and not well thought out at all.
• Guns already struggle for mod space, so much so that an optimized build on most guns doesn't let the player utilized the exilus slot. Now, we are going to even further hamper this by adding is 14(7) capacity mods to shove into guns. Better make exilus like stance mods and have them add to capacity else this, again, is just poorly thought out.
• We have literally thousands of mods, some that do not get used at all, set mods that aren't touched except for niche joke builds and the move to make new mods seemed better? Honestly this is just bad and another example of power creep. Over all, it hurts the game.
• The melee nerfs seem somewhat reasonable, except the glaive nerfs. You are nerfing an aspect of the weapon that didn't need it and you are doing in two fold. Now they are clunkier to use and deal less damage on throw. Good job? Again, it isn't helping us one bit.

TLDR: Over all this "rebalance" can be seen as: "unabashed grind bloat to give guns the ability to run the content you had to grind in the first place while adding in more mods rather than fixing others, and further straining mod capacity on primaries and secondaries. Oh and have some arcanes too."

 

Just letting you know: this ain't it chief. Take it back to the drawing board and come up with something else.

[Psilent_Knight]

Please don't move forward with the changes as they currently are! There's been a lot of feedback on better ways to try and address the gun vs melee disparity, and as a newer player who has worked hard and spent a lot of plat over the last few months to finally get the Melee setup that I want to use for "late game content" these changes seem like an extremely misguided way to address the problem. So much so that I would seriously consider just stopping playing rather than endure such harsh gutting of the Melee setup I spent so much effort on, since Melee is the way I most enjoy playing by far.

Worst of all, guns are already perfectly fine and usually easier to use than melee for "regular" Star Chart content, but I don't think the proposed changes will even make guns that much more viable of an alternative for Steel Path. More likely, the "endgame content" meta which is currently split between ability focused builds and melee builds would shift even more towards ability focused builds and just make fewer Melee options relevant rather than making more gun options viable. Many others have given extensive feedback about the proposed changes to buff guns, and the simple answer seems to be... make them less complicated (conditionals like "on status" or "on crit" rather than "on kill", "on headshot", etc) and less drain intensive, and/or more straightforward upgrades to existing mods (like Serration, etc) to bring guns closer to the level of simple effectiveness that Melee currently has, rather than just nerfing Melee harshly enough to try and force expensive and overly complicated gun builds to be used.

The more important part from my perspective as a Melee player though is wanting the Melee nerfs to be handled better, specifically:

1.) Berserker - It's very strong, and a slight nerf is probably warranted, but making it "on kill" and much shorter duration is too harsh and not a good solution. This makes the mod useless in the toughest fights (against bosses without trash mobs, etc) and I feel almost everyone would just choose Primed Fury (if they have access to it, which us newer players don't because it's locked behind a very long timegate.)

If the goal is to force a choice between ramping up to a higher max speed vs the immediate speed boost of Primed Fury, a better change would be:

Berserker Fury, cannot stack with Fury.
+10% Attack Speed (Max 70%) for 20s on Critical Hit

Or if you really want to decouple it from critical hits:

Berserker Fury, cannot stack with Fury.
+5% Attack Speed (Max 70%) for 20s on Hit

That way, even with hitting two or 3 enemies at once, it will still take quite a few swings to ramp up to the same level as Primed Fury, but it can be ramped up even on lone tough enemies like bosses and it has a long enough duration that once you do ramp up you can actually switch to guns for a few seconds without losing the melee attack speed bonus entirely.

2.) Blood Rush - Lowering from 60% to 40% is a pretty heavy nerf to critical focused builds (old builds will have 50% more crit chance than new builds), but is probably fine if the other Melee nerfs aren't quite as huge.

3.) Condition Overload - Lowering the damage from 120% to 80% per condition is another pretty huge Melee nerf (again old builds having 50% more damage buff than new builds), especially on top of the other proposed Melee nerfs. Even that harsh of a nerf might be reasonable though... but capping it to only 3 Status effects on top of such a huge baseline nerf is too much. As it currently stands, many conditions in the game feel pretty useless, but it's at least fun to make a Status build that tries to use more status effects to help boost Condition Overload, which would be completely wasted if it's limited to only 3 status effects.

4.) Kuva Nukor - Because Condition Overload is already being nerfed so much, the main purpose of many Kuva Nukor builds is already being indirectly nerfed. Many other new guns have already surpassed it for other uses, so it would probably be fine with just the nerfs to Condition Overload's damage... if it does have to be nerfed further though (beyond it's already lowest possible Riven Disposition), I'd prefer to see it brought down to 3 chains (the same as Atomos) rather than all the way down to 2 which would really take away from the current feel of the weapon as a strong AoE choice worth the effort involved in hunting down a Kuva Lich.

I really hope giving Guns effective and simple to use buffs will be focused on more, and the Melee Nerfs will be reconsidered to at least start out not quite so harsh and if they need additional changes or tuning in the future that can be addressed later, rather than trying to make such huge changes all at once.

[Grav_Starstrider]

Thanks for more content and fixes! I like the additions of new mods and arcanes, especially the ones that offer more rewards for active, skilled, and intentional gameplay! Once you've obtained all of these new upgrades, the guns are going to feel more powerful, definitely.

A bit of constructive criticism though, that I'm seeing other players echo (or rather, I'm echoing)

On 2021-06-18 at 10:00 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

When choosing weapons for a mission, the Tenno have a lot to consider...

Which weapons are strong enough for me to fight at this level?
snip
Because the Gunplay falloff is more of a late-game problem, these new Upgrades will be earned through late-game content systems -- namely, the Steel Path. You’ll be able to get the Arcane Slot Unlockers from Steel Path Honors, whereas the Arcanes themselves drop from Acolytes in the Steel Path! The spawn frequency of Acolytes is also being increased, meaning you’ll get more Steel Essence, as well as more chances for the Arcane you want. All Acolytes will drop them!  
snip
The general approach to these Galvanized Mods is that the unconditional upgrade is not quite as good as the non-Galvanized original, but the On Kill conditional increases them well above and beyond what is available with ‘conventional’ Mods in your Arsenal. These will be available from Teshin’s Steel Path Honors. 

This doesn't... Address the problem of Steel Path requiring melee spam until after you've spammed melee to get through tons upon tons of Steel Path.

This also does not solve the mandatory modding issue of guns. It's honestly, from the look of it, going to further reinforce "mandatory modding" on weapons that are already straining under the capacity-weight of expensive mandatory mods, especially when people are interested in non-mandatory mods enough to unlock the exilus slot and burn even more capacity, and in some cases, mod slots we already can't afford to further lose.

I really feel like looking at the fundamental design intent behind mods is called for, honestly. Look at how and why Melee weapons are so capable of escalating beyond what Primaries and Secondaries can do. And why we see the need for Exilus slots to have even a smidge of variety or QoL mods be considered over more DPS mods.
I'm pretty sure the answer is to remove the synergy between the various sources of damage, so that they're additive rather than multiplicative, because the current multiplicative system cumulatively starts looking exponential by the end of modding and combo counters, for guns or melee.
Make critical hits only scale off of base damage, make status procs scale in range/duration/potency, but only off of the actual IPS/elemental damage component. Make multishot the "become a shotgun" mod that splits damage into more pellets, rather than outright multiplying the pellets. This de-syncing would help improve build diversity on both guns and melee, and "compress" the performance of all weapons, as there would not be nearly as severe a gap between the BR/CO-leveraging crit and status -focused weapons, and the non-crit/status weapons. The starchart would also become less gear-check-dependent, and more skill-rewarding.

OBVIOUSLY if we dial back our weapons from multi-million points of damage, down to several hundreds or thousands, enemy scaling will need to be adjusted. And if their health/armor/shields are being adjusted, there will need to be some Warframe ability revisions, BUT half of the complaints about Warframe abilities are that weak abilities are too weak, which tweaking enemy EHP would go towards resolving, which means we'd only have too look at tweaking the egregious outliers down to being more equal with their peers. So like. Just de-syncing the different types of damage so that they're multiplicative ONLY for the baseline damage, and not on each other, and lowering enemy EHP, would appear to be a shortcut to fixing weapon balance disparities.

It'll also be way easier in the long run to do balancing in general, if health/damage numbers get semi-standardized to all fall within a significantly more parse-able range. Humans suck at logically discerning between extremely huge numbers.

Just some thoughts.