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Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide


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1 hour ago, Surbusken said:

I don't know what the argument is to leave 400 weapons as MR fodder but I am open to hearing more.

Oversimplified, it's borderline unrealistic to properly balance all this crap with every factor like MR, method of acquisition, resource cost, etc., and doing so simply is a waste of developement time that could've otherwise be used on stuff of higher importance (like new content, actually balancing warframes, you name it. As long as you can clear the entire starchart with a weapon as crappy as mk1 braton, weapon balance is pretty low on the list of priorities.

As for variety, it's already there, you just chose to disregard it. As i already said, you can grab 90% of weapons in this game and clear anything below steel path - isn't that variety? Or you want all those mr2-mr8 weapons to clear high level stuff, too?

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I don't really mind the melee nerf, but what i do mind is the grind behind the primary buff.

It feels like some kind of weird/twisted balancing 2.0 , what should be a few lines describing tweaks in a patchnote now become "content" on one side that's a really clever move on the other it feel like a cheap way to add hours of grind.

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(The following text is Google translation, there may be errors, but there is no serious malice, please forgive me)
Although the gap between primary and secondary weapons and melee weapons, DE has already noticed.
But all the weapon changes this time make me feel that there are a lot of problems. Next I will ask the following questions
The first point is the weakening of melee weapons. I think strengthening the primary and secondary weapons should not be at the cost of greatly weakening the melee weapons, especially the [Berserker] mod is weakened too much, and it needs to be triggered by killing the enemy? And only 10 seconds? If you have to face high-level enemies that are not easy to kill, it will become more and more difficult to trigger the effect. For players who like the feeling of melee, this is not what they want, so I can't accept the changes in [Berserker] this mod.
The second point is to strengthen the primary and secondary weapons. Although the main and secondary weapons have been strengthened, I think they have not been strengthened to the point of being useful, especially the new mods and new arcane arts. The trigger gain conditions are quite tasteless. DE must count on everyone to become a master of guns? I think this is not the case. DE must face up to the difficulty of use, novice experience, tight weapon slot configuration and other issues. The enhancement of firearms should focus on the key points, rather than blindly increase mods and arcane arts to solve the problem.
Although the new version has not been released yet, I hope that DE can spend as much time and energy as possible to continue reviewing and correcting weapon changes. I seriously say that this weapon change has caused a lot of controversy, and more and more players are dissatisfied (especially Chinese players). If the player’s gaming experience collapses after the new version goes live, it’s really over.
Therefore, I beg DE not to blindly change weapons and mechanisms, not to ignore the constructive opinions of global players, and not to blindly determine the future of warframe. I don’t want to see a sharp decline in online players due to DE’s own problems.
I just hope that DE will take seriously and improve Warframe!
(This is a constructive opinion put forward by Chinese players on DE)🙁

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Berserker

Nice change. Primed fury or gladiator vice are now good alternatives.

Condition overload 

A necessary change because primed preasure point was lacking. I don’t like it but it is acceptable 

blood rush

I hope De will reconsider that. Blood rush and weeping wounds are "high risk, high reward" mods. To sustain the combo counter we players are forced to sacrifice many things like gunplay or focus trees beside naramon.

Sacrificial Steel in a heavy Attack build and blood rush are now equally strong. Same reward yes. but not the same risk. Heavy attacks builds are easily combinable with gunplay and no naramon focus tree is needed.

In my opinion both mods(builds) should have the same risk, if they give the same reward. So please buff the combo counter mechanic before nerfing blood rush.

 

 

 

arcanes

It would be nice if we get a clarification what are passive buffs and what on kill buffs.

Example

Zitat

PRIMARY MERCILESS

On Kill:
+30% Damage for 6s. Stacks up to 12x.
+30% Reload Speed
+100% Ammo Max

 do i get the reload speed buff as a passive or on kill requirement?

 

arcane merciless

Zitat

PRIMARY MERCILESS

On Kill:
+30% Damage for 6s. Stacks up to 12x.
+30% Reload Speed
+100% Ammo Max

I see the kuva bramma is back. I can already imagine the soaring usage of the kuva bramma outside of steel path. Groovy!

 

arcane Deadhead

Zitat

PRIMARY DEADHEAD

On Headshot Kill:
120% Damage for 24s. Stacks up to 3x.
+30% to Headshot Multiplier.
-50% Weapon Recoil

nice one especially for bows. The only thing i want to know. What happens if the enemy dies from bleeding through a headshot. Grineer armor in steel path is quite sturdy

 

arcane dexterity 

Am 18.6.2021 um 16:00 schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

 

 

 

 

 

PRIMARY DEXTERITY

On Melee Kill: +60% Damage for 20s. Stacks up to 6x.

SECONDARY DEXTERITY

On Melee Kill: +60% Damage for 20s. Stacks up to 6x.

 

 

1. In the video the arcanes have a 7,5 sec combo duration passive buff. What happend with that? Pls clarify 

2. Are the passive stackable? 

3. So we get new arcanes for our guns to buff our melee weapons. So fundamentally our guns are now statsticks for our melee weapons. 

 

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In my opinion the "On Kill" effects will not fix the real problems with guns. In low level areas they make a change. But in Steel Path or long endurance runs these effects don´t make guns a viable option, which is one of the huge problems atm, because the enemies won´t go down fast enough to make the mods and arcanes work proper or constantly. And using a melee weapon to trigger a gun arcane is just ironic. The ideas are not bad at all but not thought to the end. Changing the way to trigger the effects would make a big difference. Atm it´s a kinda lazy solution.

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I can accept the nerfs to melee but why did they have to go and limit condition overload to 3 status effects? That's just lame. I love doing high level disruption and going into the hundreds of levels priming the demolyst with many status effects and then killing them with my melee weapon. I actually put more use into guns as a result of priming now I'll go back to exclusively using melee albeit with disappointment mainly on the cap of 3 status for condition overload.

Can we please make status based melee as effective as crit based melee against demolysts now since CO is a going to be a shell of its former self?

Edited by (XBOX)Rami C G 1989
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I know you team works very hard for it ,and i dont want to affront your employees,but you cant work out every thing only buy a hard work.,You must do it in a right way.As this updte,I think you guys didnt know the primary cause of these weak guns,few little mods cant solve it ok?Now,I ll tell you.

1,the specific buff of guns,MS(no more than3X usually),is much lower than the combo(12X),the buff of melees.

2,your new mods for guns must be joke me.if i have enough damage to kill enemy efficiency,why we need these buff?

3,many guns have a basics damage that much lower than melee.

4.many guns have the weakerer element,such as impact,but melees always have slash.

5,guns dont have stance mods.

6,the space guns can attack is too small

besides,i dont think nerf melees is a good decision.this warframe,not sekiro or demon may cry or sth athers,the challenge and troubles are not your players really want.they want to get the amazing weapons and warframes with high damage and break the enemy quickly and finally gain the large mont of war tropghies.thats why we love it.but up to now,the weapons damage became lower and lower,new warframes are more and more useless,the tasks became langer and langer(such as new empyrean and deimos),the awards are aiso became fewer too.you are ruining the feelings or your players.i love warframe so much and played this game more than 1.5 years,i dont want it become this look,please dont put this update out and do a better one,pls pls pls.

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4 hours ago, Surbusken said:

Video games are entirely, collectively stereotypical.  It's a powerpoint presentation of diagrams of player behavior. I'd argue it's the opposite of creative, it isn't free and it's isn't new.

It's a can of pickles on an assembly line, lol.

If that was the case you could very easily consume any other "can of pickles" offered by someone else without making much of a drama and yet you choose to stick with warframe for some reason. If all games are as generic as you claim they are instead of going to the forums to express your opinion you would just play any other game out there whenever DE does something you don't like and yet here you are expressing your worries about a game that, by your own words, does not offer anything unique from others out there.

4 hours ago, (XBOX)CFG SatanDevil said:

This is serious a question.

Does anyone think DE read this all und will rethink a few points? Like triggered by kill for example? 

Im sure they read some if it, but doubt they read and remember all, as to changing stuff, I think is more likely they keep some suggestions in mind (if at all) and then decide to implement them or not based on feedback once the update launches

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Man, the more I look at this the more baffled I am at how BAD this overall attempt is.

Nerfing melee mods? Sure, that's ok I guess.

Nerfing Glaives wholesale? Umm... no, the "problem" is that only Glaive P is good, due to forced Slash-procs (which is not a problem with Glaive P, but with Slash-procs). Yet ALL glaives get to suffer? Wow. Talk about collective punishment!

"Buffing" primaries and secondaries via more mods and Arcanes? Umm... no, While there is a problem with mods (they are generally too powerful across the board, moreso for melee), there's a huge problem with damagetypes too:

  • Slash and Viral dominates tremendously against armored units. This is a twofold problem: Armor scales too hard AND slash ignores armor = Recipe for balancing disaster.
  • Same deal with Toxin versus Corpus, really.
  • Most other elements are pretty meh (Heat is ok, and that's basicly it), both in resistances and in status-effects. They also make no sense (Why is Puncture not the "armor-ignoring" one? Why does Cold not make enemies more brittle? Why is Blast not just the same stagger-effect as Impact? etc)

So, what ACTUALLY has to be done?

  • A huge statsquish, particularly on mods. Their numbers need to go way down, on ALL damageboosting mods. Not just for melee, but for primaries, secondaries, archguns etc.
  • Damagetypes need to be properly rehauled. No defense-ignore either, imo.
  • Armor needs to be less of a hurdle, so we don't NEED armorreductions (or armorignores), even if they should help out of course.
  • Energy needs to be rethought in how you acquire it, so it's not 100% uptime on abilities.
    • Or if we do have near 100% uptime, make abilities less extremely powerful on clear outliers (like Saryn's #1 and Mesa's #4 etc)

If all this were to happen, stuff like damagereflection and mind control / minions could actually be viable strategies, rather than just non-contributing damage or meatshields respectively.

DE. If you want to rebalance Warframe, you CAN'T do quick and lazy "reworks" like this. You're just making a bigger mess with all this. You need to rethink damagedealing from the ground up. And I'd advice you to hire a proper mathematician / game balancer to help you out.

Imagine if 3 things happened:

  1. Slash no longer ignored armor.
  2. Toxin no longer ignored shields.
  3. No augment or ability could completely strip away armor or shields.

Our damage would generally plummet like crazy. And the game would need a PROPER rebalancing, the way it ought to be done.

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For god DE isn't logic to make the galvanized buff "on kill" because doesn't fix the main problem of the primaries and secundaries, how  is that logic we need to kill to make the guns better when in the start the guns doesn't have the power to kill that's why we use melee because why use guns when melee is better overall in damage to take down steelpath enemies.

I suggest to change to "on crit" "on status" or "on hit" for example and please is the time to think what you're doing DE.

Edited by xlPreXiioNzlx
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29 minutes ago, Sivialus said:

Yeah, "on kill" buff is a joke.

So is the polarity cost for the new mods. In the end we're getting worse equivalents of melee mods that don't justify their cost. All for weapons we already need to invest a lot of forma in. And 3 of them have D polarity, so have fun slapping that back on.

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Citation

I don't think you have, because if you had you would know that "on kill" is a very bad idea, I wouldn't like to try to kill a level 500+ mob with a head shot just to get a buff that's going to last a hand full of seconds.

This, nerfing the melee sure don't care, but have you ever tried to hit an headshot in lvl 120+ enemies? I'm not talking about corpus or infested. How is that primary and secondary buff? It's a buff for low level missions, ok don't have anything against that, but then why lock it behind the steel path? Especially when 80% of players have never reached sedna? Most players will never be able to enjoy the "buff" and the players who will be able to get those will find no use in them. 

So you are literally forcing players to only use the most op primary and secondary weapons to assure an easy headshot on high level ennemies rather than proposing diversity in the arsenal. People will use the nukor, the khom, the bramma even more than before now.

Do you really want the meta to be, get nukor or bramma and destroy everything that moves? Because that's exactly what's happening. 

Edited by gabriouchka
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And a third thought:

The reason why AoE guns dominates over the regular semi/auto weapons:

  • They deal damage in an area, obviously
  • The damage dealt is generally very high per shot (which is fine)
  • Even on single targets, damage done with these kind of weapons is much burstier and higher DPS... why?

Example with something very simple - Kitguns. Let's use the highest DPS parts, ignoring crit and status for now:

  • Catchmoon + Haymaker = 460 damage per shot, with a RoF of 1,17 = 538,2 raw dps. In a line, killing lots of enemies per shot
  • Rattleguts + Haymaker = 71 damage per shot, with a RoF of 3,67 = 260,57 raw DPS. On a single target.

Even if counting in status-procs, Catchmoon hits so hard that there's not even a need to proc much, if any, status-effects to kill enemies in a shot or two. So, WHY does the more AoE-like weapons have higher single target DPS than the single target weapon?? This makes ZERO sense.

To me, how Kitguns are "balanced" clearly shows how flawed DE's balancing is in regards to AoE guns versus basic guns.

Imo, a very basic gun-balancing should look like this:

  • Semiautos = Best single target DPS. Some default punchthrough on most of these weapons (similar to Sniper Rifles). Very high base status chance (think, 50%+ status chance at base, MINIMUM, depending on rate of fire of course)
  • Burstfire and multishot weapons (including shotguns) = Close to semiautos, if not equal, but slightly less statuschance.
  • Fullautos = Slightly worse DPS than semi/burst, due to ease of use and quicker status application.
  • AoE weapons = Worst DPS on single targets - but still capable of great burstshot damage of course.

That ^ should be a pretty basic overarcing balancing point, imo.

EDIT: And if that's too much effort, here's a lazy attempt to make the game go all in on the horde-shooting craziness:

  • CARNAGE CHAMBER (Primary mod, incompatible with Split Chamber) = Same as Split Chamber, but also adds up to 40%-ish damage as AoE around the attack's first impact point (meaning, a multiplicative effect, and it doesn't dissynergize with punchthrough) and has a radius of about 3 meters and 50% falloff.
  • MAYHEM STRIKE (Secondary mod, incompatible with Hornet Strike) = Same as Hornet Strike, but also adds up to 40%-ish damage as AoE around the attack's first impact point (meaning, a multiplicative effect, and it doesn't dissynergize with punchthrough) and has a radius of about 3 meters and 50% falloff.
  • DEATH'S CHAMBER (Shotgun mod, incompatible with Hell's Chamber) = Same as Hell's Chamber, but also adds up to 40%-ish damage as AoE around the first impact point (meaning, a multiplicative effect, and it doesn't dissynergize with punchthrough) and has a radius of about 3 meters and 50% falloff.

These could be unequippable on AoE Launcher-weapons (since they already have AoE). That would help the issues of singletarget weapons more than the Galvanized mods ever would. But would this really be the right way to go though?

Edited by Azamagon
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20 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Adding to my post above. Imagine if 3 things happened:

  1. Slash no longer ignored armor.
  2. Toxin no longer ignored shields.
  3. No augment or ability could completely strip away armor or shields.

Our damage would generally plummet like crazy. And the game would need a PROPER rebalancing, the way it ought to be done.

Genuine question: What do you think would be the fallout if the roles of Slash (proc bleed only) and Toxin (but subsequently its proc only) were simply swapped? Leave alone the no-strip clause for now, just say 'bleed status ignores shield' and 'poison status ignores armour'.

Slash from HM is no longer the "crit primary > status primary at all times for the enemies that matter" and similarly you wouldn't have the ability to Viral + Armour Bypass on (most) singular weapons without synergy from another influence. Toxin procs would grant every status-capable weapon an anti-armour role unlike Slash which has to be forced or innately viable.

 

It's not a drastic change that would shatter the entire balancing of the game, but the nuances could make for an interesting shift.

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2 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Genuine question: What do you think would be the fallout if the roles of Slash (proc bleed only) and Toxin (but subsequently its proc only) were simply swapped? Leave alone the no-strip clause for now, just say 'bleed status ignores shield' and 'poison status ignores armour'.

Slash from HM is no longer the "crit primary > status primary at all times for the enemies that matter" and similarly you wouldn't have the ability to Viral + Armour Bypass on (most) singular weapons without synergy from another influence. Toxin procs would grant every status-capable weapon an anti-armour role unlike Slash which has to be forced or innately viable.

 

It's not a drastic change that would shatter the entire balancing of the game, but the nuances could make for an interesting shift.

Interesting.

I don't think it would entirely fix things, but it has better innate balancing (like you said, no more easy Viral+Slash). Hunter Munitions would be garbage, likely getting cries of "make it Toxin-procs instead" from the whiners.

Though while better, it wouldn't solve the fundamental issue that a singular damagetype dominates the entire game. Although, if armor wasn't such a massive healthmultiplier on enemies, it could actually work as a pretty decent quick fix (which would still need more balancing and fixes, obviously, but still)

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On 2021-06-18 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

We’ve reduced this to 80% to make it almost as good as Primed Pressure Point, and 3 Status Types back to where it was originally

@[DE]Rebeccacan whe get clarification, if the amount of status types is still uncapped or is it 3?

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3 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Interesting.

I don't think it would entirely fix things, but it has better innate balancing (like you said, no more easy Viral+Slash). Hunter Munitions would be garbage, likely getting cries of "make it Toxin-procs instead" from the whiners.

Though while better, it wouldn't solve the fundamental issue that a singular damagetype dominates the entire game. Although, if armor wasn't such a massive healthmultiplier on enemies, it could actually work as a pretty decent quick fix (which would still need more balancing and fixes, obviously, but still)

Yeah, I wasn't pretending it'd be a magic bullet, the thought just appeared when I was reading your own hypothetical.

I've long considered HM as an unhealthy mod anyway, since it does essentially override the concept of status-leaning primaries with giving the proc that matters most to all Crit primaries 'for free'. It could do with being shifted to a less 'valuable' proc type.
Whiners gonna whine, but the nature of elemental mods versus physical would make the strength of a status weapon more consistent to balance out - it would help other weapon-types which HM can't, too.
Other problems admittedly exist. Some frames would see inappropriate power shifts. Garuda probably doesn't need the nail in her coffin by losing current Slash. Saryn really doesn't need the strength of Toxic Lash providing global armour-bypass procs.

In any case, there's no real fix to having a dominant damage type without either finally addressing the exponential scaling of armour by level or.. making every damage type equally wet-noodle useless in the face of it.

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>Oh no people are only using 10% of all the guns, what do we do?
>Eh, give them band aid mods and arcanes
>People using said mods and arcanes to minmax those 10% guns to ridiculous levels
Y'all there at DE are just disconnecting yourself from the community on purpose, aren't you?

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The changes sound great but... melee can scale without the need of killing. What if a weapon can't kill at certain lvl. All of these damage increases would become useless and melee would still be king. I think that for these changes to work and consider using primaries and secondaries way more often, you need to give us one of these damage buffs in an easier way. Like for example. The new damage arcanes could give you more damage per headshot like 40% per headshot/20% per bodyshot, stacks up to x9/x18. So, the galvanized mods have an easier way to be triggered with a kill when the weapon has the damage increase provided by the arcanes.

The mods and changes are great, but one of these damage increases should be easily accessible (+damage) so the other mods can work properly (+buffs per kill). It is my opinion.

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30 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Yeah, I wasn't pretending it'd be a magic bullet, the thought just appeared when I was reading your own hypothetical.

I've long considered HM as an unhealthy mod anyway, since it does essentially override the concept of status-leaning primaries with giving the proc that matters most to all Crit primaries 'for free'. It could do with being shifted to a less 'valuable' proc type.
Whiners gonna whine, but the nature of elemental mods versus physical would make the strength of a status weapon more consistent to balance out - it would help other weapon-types which HM can't, too.
Other problems admittedly exist. Some frames would see inappropriate power shifts. Garuda probably doesn't need the nail in her coffin by losing current Slash. Saryn really doesn't need the strength of Toxic Lash providing global armour-bypass procs.

In any case, there's no real fix to having a dominant damage type without either finally addressing the exponential scaling of armour by level or.. making every damage type equally wet-noodle useless in the face of it.

Yeah, your idea has good merit at the core. But also yes, armor and defense-ignoring effects really need to be redone.

Speaking of this though, some quick thoughts in regards to elements and damagetypes: If I'd keep armor-ignore in some way, I'd sort of shift it over to Puncture, where it at least would make more sense. Something like this:

Puncture status = 10% of damage dealt to the punctured target ignores the target's defenses. Additional stacks increases this by 5% (so 10 stacks = 55% defense ignore)

Then slash could be a plain DoT (which would synergize nicely with Puncture's status). This means that you still have to work on a target after applying Puncture, since there's no DoT attached to its armor-ignore. That kind of armor-ignore is healthier (like on Corrosive, it's better designed than Slash, healthy-balance-wise).

I'd also add some type of "defense" on Infested, call it Carapace. Make it function more like armor tends to work in other games, like Doom (i.e. it protects health-damage heavily, and is ablative). Then puncture is your general antidefense (not just anti-armor) physical effect, impact is your general CC and slash is your general raw damage. Together they make a nice trio of target dispatching.

As described, Puncture's procs - notably - would work against all 3 factions' defenses, not just armor. But it's also the weakest anti-defense. And with defenses suggested to be less extreme, it'd be a nice status-effect, but not a musthave.

The non-physical elements I'd also make a bit less faction-specific.

  • Heat is panic and DoT (no more anti-armor) - Damagetype better against all shields (makes more sense than Cold)
  • Electric is convulse and AoE DoT
  • Cold is slowdown and slight damage-amp (embrittlement) - Damagetype better against all armor
  • Toxin is DoT, anti-accuracy and reduces enemy damage output
  • Blast is stagger and carapace-weakening (i.e. anti-Infested)
  • Radiation is confusion, like now
  • Corrosive is DoT and armor-weakening (i.e. anti-Grineer)
  • Magnetic is immobilization and shields-weakening (i.e. anti-Corpus)
  • Gas is AoE damage, like now (but improved)
  • Viral is raw damage-amp, like now (but weaker numbers)
Edited by Azamagon
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