Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide

[Loveframe]

On Kill - If you can't kill it before, you're not going to kill it now.

The nerfs to melee and new mods would be fine if they were still "On Hit/Crit/Status Effect". Making them On Kill makes them useless for anything other than regular Star Chart and non-endless Steel Path missions.

Instead of making all these new gimicky mods, why not just make the three base mods required in all melee builds available as Primary and Secondary version?

Example:

• Primary Condition Overload: +120% Primary Damage per Status Type effecting the target.
• Secondary Condition Overload: +120% Primary Damage per Status Type effecting the target.

This whole Dev Shop seems like it is way over thinking it and making things more complex than they should be. 

[(PSN)namsilatalisman]

Shotguns need a Galvanized variant of Laser Sight. They are single target weapons, which already have major disadvantages, but they will be the worst in their class without proper crit

[DaGhostDS]

Can we get a fix to DR/armor value before nerfing everything across the board? All those changes are basically band-aid on amputation. Making annoying changes won't make people want to use underperforming weapons.

 

The Main issue with Warframe :

• Damage Reduction on enemies goes into overly high value which basically make PRIMARY and SECONDARY worthless, which make you go into either overkill with Melee and certain Meta ranged weapons. This also caused PowerCreep to add up over the years to each Frame you reworked or released.

Until that is fixed you will forever be stuck in a Nerf/buff cycle of doom.

Stop with the "ON kill" mods, they are terrible.

[_Bakuto_]

Sry to say the same as others maybe had, but why just let Melee as it was and bring up the Guns changes and make Enemys just stronger? So maybe let them scale faster, readd the Endless Missions in the Void or so. Rly its a punch in the face of all the people who grinded there a**es off to get there Melee Rivens perfekt or at last good/acceptable, not talking about the ones who buyed or grinded plat to buy them, so you hit everyone bothe twice for wasting our time and money. Thank you :D (not) 

[Sahysa]

TLDR:  Personal “On Kill” effects are not my favorite as the game itself and squadmates can frustrate building and maintaining the stack.  It may be a wash in the fun department.  Timers need to be longer or triggers shared.  
TLDR: I bid you reconsider Galvanized mod stats and costs.  Reasons below.

So I somehow missed when this was posted on Friday and this will forever mark me with shame because my response is late to the tune of 50 pages or so.  I would have seen the video go up, but there's a lot of… other content on the channel.  I have not read the other tenno posts.

Some nerfs are necessary.  Some nerfs are overdue.  I’d like to think that some nerfs won’t affect me because in my withdrawn casual state.  To get full advantage out of Condition Overload required prolonged contact with the target, which runs counter to personal doctrine: If it takes that long, you shouldn’t be doing it [doing it wrong] unless the target is “special” and cannot be skipped or strategically avoided.  But that's me, adherent to efficiency curves and largely ignoring marshal achievements.  
I never had a problem with melee being “overpowered” because I only used it as a backup weapon or lich deleter when shooting became ineffective for one poor tuning reason or another.  I simply avoided content, when possible, that made the problem far too stark to ignore.  

 

But I digress, I do have a problem with this design:
and that is my personal aversion to “On kill” effects.  In the RPG context, an On Kill trigger might as well not exist if you cannot kill something, or there is nothing available to kill.  In fact, On Kill effects never apply to the first target you engage.   In a horde shooter like this game has become, one can argue that it is a non issue, but that is not always true.  Sometimes enemies thin out, Sometimes enemies take time to kill, Sometimes there are no enemies to kill.  

With encounters like Eidolons and other bosses, these buffs may not be available because they rely on the player finding trash to kill and it can be a chore.  I’d like to see the usage statistics on AMP arcanes as I class many of them as “unusable” for this very reason.
The problem becomes even worse with these short durations.  Are you telling me my weapon is going to lose half its damage if I can’t find and kill an enemy in 6 seconds?  That's stressful.

Perhaps I shouldn’t complain because “it's free real estate,” but I can’t help but be annoyed by the design direction of being dependent on kills and think DE should be aware.

And I didn't even think about the co-op dynamics… What am I supposed to think after my numbers get smaller because my squad mates got the kills I needed to keep the stack up?  If these mods are powered by personal kills, then I got to say I’m not excited unless the timers become a lot more forgiving to the tune of 30 seconds or more.  

The Galvanized mods have two problems, not counting the “on kill” problem.
First, they are too expensive.  Galvanized Acceleration, Shot, Savvy, Aptitude, Scope and Shot will not fit without performance “exchange.”  Acceleration is a real problem because it's an Exilus mod competing with 4 or more primed mods and a Riven for space.  
Second, the multi shot mods are inconsistent throughout the weapon classes.  Chamber is -10% stock, Diffusion is -40% stock, Hell is --40% stock.  I cannot tell if you meant to nerf the shotgun and pistol version or if it was just a case of copy pasta.

 

Where do we get more OULL and Ultimatums?  I seem to have missed that somewhere.   You wrote the notes already didn't you?

 

[notHunky]

How to instantly kill any hype I had for "Sisters of Parvos" in one easy step! I know we're supposed to provide constructive criticism, but other users from the first few pages already said most of what I was thinking.

All other changes aside, absolutely DO NOT tie every mod to an on kill effect.

[TastyTaro]

43 минуты назад, Sahysa сказал:

Timers need to be longer or triggers shared.  

nah nah denied. when i checked these new mods it was obvious enough that mods are for a solo players only. Why Nidus players often go rather upset when they play in a group? Players in a group simply kills mobs faster than Nidus can stack mutations. And with these timed effcets of these mods all of us will suffer the same sitatuon as Nidus players. Our buffs from mods will run off rather quick.

Aside from glaring issues with how we get these mods, considering their cost endo and credits wise, mechanics behind them, i see a problem here. Let us not forget that our weapon should be able to kill mobs without let say Serration in the first place, because Galvanized mods will replace +damage mods (because these are the only mods that we can replace).

But if i play solo, if i sit in defensive position where i can group mobs and kill them, sure these new additions worth every penny.

Well at very least these mods have some use, they really do. Things could be worse, i mean just look at parazon "improvements".

[(PSN)Alphonso-Alonso]

3 hours ago, SephirothWS said:

  

Come again?

Every. Single. Galavanized Mod here ALL have effects locked behind kills, whether its normal kills, or HEADSHOT KILLS like Scope/Crosshairs.

And you have to replace one of these with a mandatory mod that’s 10-15% better without a kill condition. Think about that.

[ZenHare]

Blood Rush isn't a one-mod path to red crits despite what Rebecca says. For a moment there, I was thinking that I was over-stacking critical chance. This is something that is easily tested and the math isn't that hard. Blood Rush with Nikana Prime (28% base critical chance) at 12 stacks will result in red crits 13% of the time,  Destreza Prime (32% base crit chance) will result in red crits 43% of the time and weapons like Fragor Prime (40% base crit chance) will finally result in a constant stream of red crits. How many weapons are there with a 40% base crit chance? I wager not many. I have a feeling if some YT showing of their endless red crit build, there is a Riven with crit chance involved in addition to Blood Rush - a surprise to absolutely no one. What about Sacrificial Steel? Well, depending on your weapon riven disposition, you can even more than 220% crit chance plus other stats to boot. For example, a riven for a Fragor Prime will give you 250% crit chance and it is a 3 star disposition. (Also technically if you are right on the cusp of the red crit zone, Helios or Helios Prime with the Gladiator mod set, but it kind of sucks to be locked to one pet.)

Just a classic case of DE letting the complexity of the game get away from them and their solution to add more complexity. *face palm*

[(PSN)Alphonso-Alonso]

7 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Probably the hundreds of different buffing and debuffing and damage methods available.

Oh I see so why the buffs to gun- oh you were just being reductive to dismiss criticism, what a waste of time.

[mrrobotto67]

I think i am accurate when  i say that a big part of the community disagree, don't like the changes that DE proposed there. Personally i don't really get why the things that make gun play viable on the steel path (aside from archguns, they don't even get a mention on the dev workshop post LOL), are unlocked by grinding on the steel path, also i don't think that is enough to bring those weapons up to speed with melee, specially when those mods/arcanes trigger on kill and not all melee mods require a kill to trigger. (also ... ranged weapons require a heavier investment in forma because there is nothing that boost the mod capacity for them aside from the blue potato).

So what i want to know is:

Will you open a test cluster so players can test this changes?

Will you address and tackle the concerns that the player base have mentioned on the dev workshop post? or will you continue with the things you are proposing on said post?

What about arch-guns? Are they getting what primary and secondaries are getting?

 

[Xyngrr]

This has been stated time and again throughout this topic, but it bears repeating yet again...
On Kill effects do not impact usage once enemies are beyond the killreach of the basic weapon without those effects.
Personally, I think there's potential there, but the galvanized mods as presented will only improve the usage of guns in easier areas, bringing them closer in statistic as long as the ramp up is reasonably quick. The ceiling of gun usage will raise a little, but will still give way the literal second you lose the benefits of the mods, like at the beginning of a mission where you have no kills. Meaning you holster the gun and waggle the bar of sharp metal from the starting line, just a few nodes or minutes further in. If the intent of the fix is to encourage more gun use pre-steel path it will likely work, if the intent to increase usage of guns in steel path or beyond it will fail with only negligible gains.

[LagartoPunkarra]

On 2021-06-18 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Kuva Nukor

 

We are indeed touching 1 non-Melee item in the series of Nerfs, and likely to no one’s surprise it’s the Kuva Nukor. It’s a dominant Secondary with incredible power, which is warranted given its acquisition. It’ll keep all of its signature behaviour, but the general output is being notched down slightly with the following change:
- Chains targets reduced to 2 from 4

I just want to point out a couple of things in this nerf:

1. The Atomos links to 3 enemies, so now Atomos will be used as the secondary to use with a Condition Overload melee. So DE, are you gonna nerf this weapon too?
   1. If yes, then expect a nerf to the Amprex too, as it also links to 3 enemies.
   2. If no, then this nerf is useless for its intended purpouse.
2. Nerfing this won't make Condition Overload weapons less powerful, specially when this mod can be used alongside Primed Pressure Point.

[LagartoPunkarra]

On 2021-06-18 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Galvanized Mods

 

Our observation that Arsenal imbalance becomes obvious at higher level content means that we want your progression to this content to matter for your power level. We want to give you the tools to progress to optimal play with a new series of Mods: Galvanized Mods!

 

The general approach to these Galvanized Mods is that the unconditional upgrade is not quite as good as the non-Galvanized original, but the On Kill conditional increases them well above and beyond what is available with ‘conventional’ Mods in your Arsenal. These will be available from Teshin’s Steel Path Honors. 

 

 

Yeah, I get what the devs intended with these, and I don't want to be negative, but wouldn't be more logical to buff the mods we already have instead of this?

These "Galvanized" mods doesn't look as useful as many people may think, as it has a lower damage potential in exchange of higher temporary damage when killing enemies. This won't be useful for really high level enemies because with some weapons you'll only be able to kill a single enemy and you won't be able to kill another enemy in time or you run out of ammo. These look more like mods to demolish the star chart and that's it.

Sincerely, you should just buff primaries and secondaries more, being by buffing the mods that they already have or buffing their baase damage (and the functionality of some of these, like the Stug still being the worst weapon in the game for no reason). However, by how insistent the devs are about not touching the base stats of the weapons, I don't expect these changes to come in the future.

[ZenHare]

For the on-kill triggers, can you imagine the hate for Saryn, Mirage and other frames that AOE map-wide that these mods are going to cause. That is going to be awesome. 

[WattageWatt]

On 2021-06-18 at 10:00 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Blood Rush’s maximum value is being lowered.This changes the achievability of consistent Red Crits from just one Mod (on most Melee weapons, some High-Critical exceptions), and now additional help will be needed via Mods, Arcanes, or Warframe abilities to achieve consistent Red Crits. 

Just a quick look at the math makes this reasoning odd. Only 31/175 (17.7%) of weapons could get obtain red crits with Blood Rush alone. Of those, only 7 (4%) have a chance of getting red crits that's higher than 50% at full stacks. Even at the most generous definition of "consistent red crits" (where any hit has the chance of a red crit at max combo), less than 20% of melee weapons match the "reasons" DE is going with.

This is also going to impact lower crit chance weapons. Old blood rush allows for weapons with a Crit chance of 14% to get guaranteed yellow Crits at max stacks. This allows for weapons at 14% crit chance or higher to be consistent. New blood rush will raise that consistency threshold to 19%. This knocks out 35/175 weapons out of that consistent yellow crit range, which is more than the 31 DE says are a problem. My assumption is that this will probably lower weapon diversity in the player base, by making the pool of viable melee weapons smaller for higher level play, which I thought was the opposite of the goal.

 

[AziSlays]

21 hours ago, GREF_TM said:

Guess what doesn't need to be in a pitiful ~6m range to do damage?

You say that as if it matters in literally any way at all.

[AziSlays]

On 2021-06-19 at 7:20 PM, (PSN)WolfieKidd060 said:

Yeah, I noticed that I was wrong about the fire rate thing. But even though it reloads the full magazine at a once, if need be, you can fire off shot after one reload with the regular Corinth

I always see people point this out like it's some big selling point. It's not. I would rather just reload 20 shells at once with the slower reload. You spend less time reloading overall.

[sixis-x]

i mean, i get balancing it out so people will use their guns more. but frankly i just use melee most of the time because its way more enjoyable for me than using the guns in this game. sure - adding in more gun mods will make them more powerful and viable BUT that doesnt address the (imo bland) mechanics or design. nerfing the mods just hurts my favorite aspect of combat and doesn't address the entire issue of boring gun play. the melee is what really makes this game stand apart and is one of the most enjoyable experiences to have.  

though its great the devs are trying to make this a more balanced experience, i dont think this addresses the entire reason of why melee is preferred. 

 

[(PSN)WolfieKidd060]

1 minute ago, AziSlays said:

I always see people point this out like it's some big selling point. It's not. I would rather just reload 20 shells at once with the slower reload. You spend less time reloading overall.

It is the selling point, because you effectively get higher dps.

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 minutes ago, AziSlays said:

I always see people point this out like it's some big selling point. It's not. I would rather just reload 20 shells at once with the slower reload. You spend less time reloading overall.

Think I put this on my sheet a while back.. Yep, there it is.

5	2.3	0.6501105188
20	3	0.8244023083

Corinth Prime has a significantly higher reload sustain, only 17.56% burst dps lost instead of 35%

[AziSlays]

1 minute ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Think I put this on my sheet a while back.. Yep, there it is.

5	2.3	0.6501105188
20	3	0.8244023083

Corinth Prime has a significantly higher reload sustain, only 17.56% burst dps lost instead of 35%

You have presented numbers and not done well to state what they mean. Could you explain further?

[(PSN)WolfieKidd060]

Just now, AziSlays said:

You have presented numbers and not done well to state what they mean. Could you explain further?

5 shells+ fast reload= higher DPS

[AziSlays]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)WolfieKidd060 said:

5 shells+ fast reload= higher DPS

that logic would check out if the corinth prime either didn't have 4x the mag size or did have 4x as long a reload. Neither of those are the case. 

Prime's reload is only 0.7 seconds longer than a full reload of the base Corinth. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 minutes ago, AziSlays said:

You have presented numbers and not done well to state what they mean. Could you explain further?

Copying direct out of the sheet tends to mangle it. That was mostly the last column's relevance explained in the last line - it's the calculated reload quotient (how much of a weapon's Burst DPS is sustainable through reloading).

First row is Corinth (5 shells, 2.3s reload, 65% sustainable), second is Corinth Prime (20 shells, 3s reload, 82.44% sustainable). It accounts for fire rate, but I was lazy and that's a few columns back so it'd be more confusing than explanatory.