Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide

[ValinorAtani]

Am 18.6.2021 um 16:00 schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

Kuva Nukor

 

We are indeed touching 1 non-Melee item in the series of Nerfs, and likely to no one’s surprise it’s the Kuva Nukor. It’s a dominant Secondary with incredible power, which is warranted given its acquisition. It’ll keep all of its signature behaviour, but the general output is being notched down slightly with the following change:
- Chains targets reduced to 2 from 4

 

Nice to see DE didnt learn anything from releasing Catchmoon back then.

 

Am 18.6.2021 um 16:00 schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

Primary and Secondary Weapon Arcanes

We are going to start with the biggest change: You can now add Arcane Slots (name not final) to your Primary and Secondary weapons, and fill the Slots with new Arcanes that enhance and reward diverse gameplay. 

Our entire approach to making Guns a comparable choice in your Arsenal orbits around the notion that Gunplay is fundamentally more varied than Melee: there are pinpoint accuracy guns, AOE guns, and high fire rate Guns (and everything in between). There’s reload times, magazine sizes, and more. We want to make these varied options better at what they do by rewarding you for using them well - thus, Arcanes!

 

Yeah the lazy way, just add some cash grab Arcanes instead of reworking the weapons itself.  Yeah I forgot the "Bypass the Grind with Platinum" is still strong instead of a of good gameplay loops or even QoL features.

 

Am 18.6.2021 um 16:00 schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

With the release of Update 30.5: Sisters of Parvos, players will receive the following upon login:

1. All Players Mastery Rank 5 and above will receive 5 x Built Forma.

2. All Players Mastery Rank 5 and above will receive a 3-Day Affinity Booster.

3. Any Player who owns a Kuva Nukor will receive an extra 2 x Built Forma. All Players who owned ANY Lich Weapon at any point OR have a Converted Lich OR have an active Lich get 1x Requiem Ultimatum (a new item to taunt a Lich or Sister into battle)!

4. Players who have Converted a Kuva lich OR vanquished a Kuva Lich will get OULL, which is a Requiem Wildcard Mod! 

 

How generous. Wow. 5 Lousy Forma and a 3 Day Affinity Booster. Yeah ha.

Guess FFXIV didnt teached you enough about players and respecting their time investments.

 

 

[Kraethius]

I would've nerfed melee more but I guess this'll have to do for now. If you could nerf AoE weapons to do, say 1/3 the damage of single-target weapons that'd be neat. Then they'd be better at 3+ targets while single-target weapons would be better at one and two targets.

[RS219]

On 2021-06-20 at 12:00 AM, chronius119 said:

So i like the changes for primary and secondary but to nerf the KUVA Nukor is just plain stupid why schould i even try to farm it if its get nerfed to the ground like other stuff nobody uses anymore [Arca Plasmor , Opticor , Boltor(the old one) , orthos ] its a Kuva weapon it schould be strong but NOPE you say our WORK in Farming it is pretty much just a time eater like the kuva bramma without riven thanks 

Lets see Sister of Pavos drops everybody will get the new weapons just so they get trash nerfed 

 

NICE ONE DE

 

Because level 5 MRs can get it early in the game and breeze through the star chart with it, and that's way too much fast-fun for DE. It's not even that powerful for the Steel Path and takes seconds of focused fire to kill a single Grineer in late SP.

Remember when they nerfed the Kuva Bramma six feet under because MR5s could get it? Instead of, I don't know, walling off future MR5s from gaining it so quickly?

[MistressMoonpaw]

So essentially you made melee worse for EVERYONE and locked the improvement to primary and secondary guns behind a gamemode for veterans (who dont wanna play it, or Warframe in general). Nice. Love the idea that you need to unlock the arcane slot for each and every gun you wanna use with an item you have to grind for, after you grinded for the arcanes. So whenever a new gun comes out you wanna slap an arcane on: more grind. I speak for myself and all veterans i know and asked when i say: Im done with warframe.

We had a good run but its just sad to see the game go this direction.

Grind upon grind, "no fun allowed" (see nerfs that no one asked for), rushed content, riddled with bugs, boring gameplay, boring tilesets (corpus defense namely), "ship now, fix later" mentality, Raids gone to hell, Duviri paradox delayed to the year 9999 probably. Warframe used to be fun, long ago

[Almagnus1]

Did the standard secondary build change from:

Hornet Strike
Lethal Torrent
Barrel Diffusion
Primed Pistol Gambit
Primed Target Cracker
Pathogen Rounds/Pistol Pestilence
Deep Freeze/Frostbite
Primed Heated Charge
<exilus mod>

to the following?

Galvanized Shot
Lethal Torrent
Glavanized Diffusion
Galvanized Crosshairs
Primed Target Cracker
Pathogen Rounds/Pistol Pestilence
Deep Freeze/Frostbite
Primed Heated Charge
<exilus mod>

[Kegnor97]

In the video they mentioned that mercyless arcans would trugger with any type of kill, ¿Does this count kills using abilities?

[Oorel]

53 minutes ago, 4444T4444 said:

Don't turn steel essence farm back to boring again. Leave it as it is.

yeah I kinda agree, its gonna suck. I want Odin back, I did like that one. its not great now, but the decay is gonna really wear on me.

right now I let SE accumulate until I get a charm buff, in general its resulting in about 1.4 SE / min. if you just collect and hope a charm is there you will hover around 1SE/min in longer missions, around 60min+. god its not going to be fun.

if anything I hope they just leave out the arcane slot unlocking I need the SE for other stuff.

[RS219]

45 minutes ago, Oorel said:

yeah I kinda agree, its gonna suck. I want Odin back, I did like that one. its not great now, but the decay is gonna really wear on me.

right now I let SE accumulate until I get a charm buff, in general its resulting in about 1.4 SE / min. if you just collect and hope a charm is there you will hover around 1SE/min in longer missions, around 60min+. god its not going to be fun.

if anything I hope they just leave out the arcane slot unlocking I need the SE for other stuff.

The people you should be blaming here are the ones who just have to make videos demonstrating and gushing all about it. I may not exactly do this "wait for a charm" and just run normal steel path alerts whenever I feel like it, but DE wouldn't have picked up on this had a showoff decided to publish how he got 500+ essences in a single sitting.

[Rage_Inducer]

So lemme get this straight, you plan on making primaries and secondaries better for steel path by putting the arcanes and mods that let them make the jump to steel path... within steel path.

AND you're also nerfing melee so we can't even brute force our way into that cycle.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)CFG SatanDevil said:

Seriously?
Nerfing melee and increasing riven dispo?  Why? 

That wouldn’t be nice for people without riven

I mean, I’m half convinced the Berserker and Blood rush nerfs are just so DE can sell more platinum for people to buy rivens that’ll counter the nerfs they are implementing. A classic “Give us money to get back the thing we took from you”.

[(XBOX)CFG SatanDevil]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Rage_Inducer:

So lemme get this straight, you plan on making primaries and secondaries better for steel path by putting the arcanes and mods that let them make the jump to steel path... within steel path.

AND you're also nerfing melee so we can't even brute force our way into that cycle.

Yes

[Animalon29]

On 2021-06-18 at 4:43 PM, Boll said:

Who is going to play braton, athodai or Sh it like that when you can use staltha, spectra vandal or phage. 
 

lol I use braton prime in steel path and it is melting those worms lmao. 

[-10no-KiWad]

Disapointed.

Just f.e. : If you introduced an item into the game that would allow you to raise the characteristics of weapons (with different limits for each of course) instead of new mods, this would be many times more adequate than what you are planning. Especially with the new arcanes.

[zauban]

How about adding a passive where holstered weapon gain increase damage for every second holstered. Like Madurai void strike but with duration instead of charges. E.g. A weapon deal 100% more damage after being holstered for 30s. This will increase the need to switch weapons in a mission.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

41 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

So many pages of reasons for me to quit this game

Thanks DE for making a game where nerfs are the content. 

It's really not gonna be that bad. You still have speed enhancing abilities and even a wisp spectre gives you a slight speed boost.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 hours ago, WolfInstinct said:

Why you havent said about the steel essence 5 min nerf here but added into the video...

How about you let us farm things in our own ways and not force us to something else

You made it like this, you havent asked the community how it would be better. You only make the changes based on papers, but not on gameplay...i swear that no one from DE has ever farmed SE more than 10 minutes to see how boring it gets to do the same thing over and over just for a trash cosmetics or overpriced kitgun rivens

There were already 3 nerfs to the SE, first the ophelia, no more hiding in the hole...2nd was a fk you that we have another way, odin were we are actually playing and not just afk, nerfed to drops from acolyes only and now 3rd, people found out that acolyes spawn in one spot in a room, so we pile up and get when smeeta bless us...now we porbably dont have any other way beside just camping FOR REAL in one place where we also get the SE drop in our inventory and we also dont need to move more than 4m to have full life support all the time and everything it does is we will spend more time afking than when we were playing on odin

How are people suppose to play steel path if you nerf a resource so important to even have a way to use primaries there...i wont come daily to do the alerts(that are really easy to be done since there is no scaling there) just to get a mod that will boost my damage from 20k damage to 24k and still not be able to do the steel path properly

DE, ffs, ask the community how it would be better, what is powerful and what is awful, thats how you keep your game alive and make the community happy to play and spend money in your game.

 

Ophelia wasn't a nerf....it was combating lazy, exploitative players.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 hours ago, ValinorAtani said:

Nice to see DE didnt learn anything from releasing Catchmoon back then.

 

 

Yeah the lazy way, just add some cash grab Arcanes instead of reworking the weapons itself.  Yeah I forgot the "Bypass the Grind with Platinum" is still strong instead of a of good gameplay loops or even QoL features.

 

 

How generous. Wow. 5 Lousy Forma and a 3 Day Affinity Booster. Yeah ha.

Guess FFXIV didnt teached you enough about players and respecting their time investments.

 

 

Formaing weapons doesn't take a lot of time, and formaing stuff is really a standard part of game progression....

[ValinorAtani]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Madurai-Prime:

Formaing weapons doesn't take a lot of time, and formaing stuff is really a standard part of game progression....

Guess DE's Forum needs a Sarcasm Sign then...

[WolfInstinct]

31 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Ophelia wasn't a nerf....it was combating lazy, exploitative players.

Im not saying ophelia wasnt broken (because it was), and i didnt had a problem with it being nerfed, totally fine with that but...

Diminishing the power or the effectiveness of something is, in fact, a nerf aand, Ophelia was a nerf even if was being aimed towards macro/afk players (which they couldve banned them but DE is also lazy, not only the players)

[Surbusken]

2 hours ago, GREF_TM said:

  

As i said, you cannot make all 500 weapons equially appealing and there is nothing bad about it.

2.7h is a pretty moronic statement even if used as a joke, considering how much time it would take to actually balance the entire arsenal, but yeah, whatever.

... which is a bad game to compare warframe with, as it has a very limitied weapon selection and more ways to play other than just killing everyone. Warframe is a looter shooter about killing stuff, and there's only two dominant ways you can use a weapon here - to directly kill stuff, or to weaken stuff with status to - you guessed it - kill it afterwards. That's it. In a framework like that, you can't make it so all 500 weapons in your game about killing stuff each do something special. That's simply not happening.

So yeah, turns out not every game is a metal gear. But the don't have to.

You have to pick a narrative, is the problem.

Your own story is, it's "just a looter shooter" based on empty stats, with no deeper gameplay. Okay, great, sure then that's the story we are going with.

But then you just can't come out and say it takes more than notepad edits, that was your story, remember. Gotta stick to your story, you can't bend the narrative when it becomes inconvenient.

I had said 2.7 hours, to clean up every weapon in the entire game using your narrative of "not a deep game" but this is talking about reparing the entire game after the fact.

Obviously, as a professional you never let it go that far in the first place though. As a professional, working with spreadsheets and stats, you, of course, have scripted baseline stats and equations, coded into the game...

I am sure you noticed players are able to write calculations on damage... lol?

So simplified, take pistols, firerate + damage = damage per second, so x+y=z in the script. Then the script checks the baseline, say pistols have to be >5 and <10.

Then script alerts you if you end up with an 11 or maybe a 2.

And so you just fire up notepad and change either x or y, boom problem solved. That's the work that should have be done, 10 years ago.

Those were the days, you had to figure out, "how do pistols fit in", "what are their baseline damage" etc. The only problem is, they haven't sat down and made a plan or concept for any of it.

Cooking with no recipe.

 

Which bring us to the metal gear solid example, where I don't know how educated you are on the subject, how ghost in the shell, the matrix, final fantasy, anime and all that ties together but needless to say, warframe has copy-pasted mostly everything in the game.

Metal gear solid has a stealth system, ranged combat, melee combat, movement, puzzles and lore through codec calls...

I am sure you totally noticed warframe copy-pasted the metal gear solid codec calls with lotus and what now, right? lol...

The laser breams also but that isn't to say it's a complaint, you definitely should copy-paste from the greatest, everything is a copy of a copy, you just have to copy the right things.

Where the lesson, you could, and should, take from that game, is item-gameplay connection. I mentioned last time using a cardboard box for meaningful gameplay, which you'd think wouldn't make sense, but it does, because the item connects with the gameplay.

... simply to say, a pistol is nothing, a pistol edited in notepad is nothing. A pistol is only what the gameplay lets it connect with.

In metal gear, pistol was the only weapon with a silencer - making it a unique tool, connect with the gameplay, taking on a role only the pistol can fill.

And vice versa. The pistol can't do what the cardboard box can do.

If that's too advanced, okay, another example would be healer, tank, dps. Sniper vs close combat, stealth build vs combat build in something like deus ex.

Slugger vs boxer, endurance vs top speed, maybe fighter vs caster in something like nwn... you get the picture.

And it's entirely on the developers to create gameplay that sets up meaningful interaction with relevant items.

If you want a flashlight in the game, you probably have to create gameplay around darkness and so on, make sense?

In warframe, what's the point of a pistol vs a rifle? What gameplay do pistols connect to? Notepad stats or?

 

Then with that in mind, I made fun of the whole "just let it rot", "even notepad edits are too much work", because I think the players deserve much better, especially with how loyal and hardworking the community and the players are, and the developers can easily do better.

Good for them, good for us, good for making money.

I don't think anyone should advocate not persuing expansion and improvement? Do you? Is how life is, isn't it? Technology gets better, athletes improve, you read more, learn more, and businesses are always looking to expand.

Everything is about moving forward and making things better, if you look at really anything in life. Your narrative to not do anything and accept complancency, I mean, what is that?

Sit then and give up, surrender, defeatism?

You don't try to get smarter, stronger, richer, happier, healthier in your life? Oh well, losing 500 lbs is a lot, so that's definitely justified to give up? Isn't the opposite true, the bigger the problem the more important it is to get to work on it?

 

So, pick a narrative first, think it through second and consider the implications third.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

7 minutes ago, WolfInstinct said:

Im not saying ophelia wasnt broken (because it was), and i didnt had a problem with it being nerfed, totally fine with that but...

Diminishing the power or the effectiveness of something is, in fact, a nerf aand, Ophelia was a nerf even if was being aimed towards macro/afk players (which they couldve banned them but DE is also lazy, not only the players)

Semantics. Is it a nerf to criminals to prevent them from committing crimes lol?

[WolfInstinct]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Semantics. Is it a nerf to criminals to prevent them from committing crimes lol?

So you completely missed my point, good job...

But to answer to the question, yes it is. Even if its for the good or for the bad, "crimes" are less effective, harder to achieve, however you want to call it, for those that do them...So, "crimes are nerfed for the criminals by not being as effective as before"

[Sylonus]

The melee nerfs feel bad, but effectively the only thing they will change is making the weapons that were "good enough because all melee weapons are good" not feel good enough anymore, and the best weapons will stay usable, once again having the opposite effect of their stated goal, it will only narrow the meta in terms of melee.

The gun buffs will make guns better, but the move to making so many buffs "On kill" mechanics feels really ill-advised, it will work fine in most mission types, but for certain types, where it's often quite important, your "on kill" buffs just won't be active, when you're fighting a boss without adds, when you're chasing down a demolyst and it takes longer than a few seconds, when some of these buffs would be at their most important they won't be active, and that just feels crappy. There's a reason we don't generally like these kind of gimmicks.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

26 minutes ago, WolfInstinct said:

So you completely missed my point, good job...

But to answer to the question, yes it is. Even if its for the good or for the bad, "crimes" are less effective, harder to achieve, however you want to call it, for those that do them...So, "crimes are nerfed for the criminals by not being as effective as before"

There's no point to be missed. You're a customer taking part in a service owned by an entity that is not you. They are allowed to do with their game what they want.

[WolfInstinct]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

There's no point to be missed. You're a customer taking part in a service owned by an entity that is not you. They are allowed to do with their game what they want.

And im also allowed to use their service, to complain, to say what its good or bad in my eyes, to try to give them some options on how they could change it as long as im a customer that is not banned from the service and has every right to use it without breaking the rules.

If 50% of the people complain about a product, wouldnt be best to also ask the customer what is wrong with it and ask for their opinion on how you could change it instead of doing only in your way and possibly losing more cusomers?

 

The ones that complain are only trying to say what is good and bad in their eyes. They want the service to become better, so they will want to use it more and more instead of less and less.