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Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide


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The melee nerfs feel bad, but effectively the only thing they will change is making the weapons that were "good enough because all melee weapons are good" not feel good enough anymore, and the best weapons will stay usable, once again having the opposite effect of their stated goal, it will only narrow the meta in terms of melee.

The gun buffs will make guns better, but the move to making so many buffs "On kill" mechanics feels really ill-advised, it will work fine in most mission types, but for certain types, where it's often quite important, your "on kill" buffs just won't be active, when you're fighting a boss without adds, when you're chasing down a demolyst and it takes longer than a few seconds, when some of these buffs would be at their most important they won't be active, and that just feels crappy. There's a reason we don't generally like these kind of gimmicks.

Edited by Sylonus
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26 minutes ago, WolfInstinct said:

So you completely missed my point, good job...

But to answer to the question, yes it is. Even if its for the good or for the bad, "crimes" are less effective, harder to achieve, however you want to call it, for those that do them...So, "crimes are nerfed for the criminals by not being as effective as before"

There's no point to be missed. You're a customer taking part in a service owned by an entity that is not you. They are allowed to do with their game what they want.

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3 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

There's no point to be missed. You're a customer taking part in a service owned by an entity that is not you. They are allowed to do with their game what they want.

And im also allowed to use their service, to complain, to say what its good or bad in my eyes, to try to give them some options on how they could change it as long as im a customer that is not banned from the service and has every right to use it without breaking the rules.

If 50% of the people complain about a product, wouldnt be best to also ask the customer what is wrong with it and ask for their opinion on how you could change it instead of doing only in your way and possibly losing more cusomers?

 

The ones that complain are only trying to say what is good and bad in their eyes. They want the service to become better, so they will want to use it more and more instead of less and less.

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The only way to properly balance weapons across whole spectrum would be making mods with diminishing returns depended on initial weapon stats. For ex. weapon that has innate 30% crit chance would get smaller bonus than, let's say, 15% crit chance. This way weapons with strong stats would have priority to mod weaker stats to bump them up instead of what we currently have: powerful being ultimate and useless being less useless.

But it ain't gonna happen :)

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Personally I am okay with the nerfs to melee, of course nobody like them but sometimes it's just unavoidable.

I am not so convinced with the new mods, I am not a big fan of the "on kill" effects and generally don't even run Argon scope despite being a strong, cheap mod.

Aside from the grind to acquire (which I am more or less okay with) there is way more:

1) More Endo and credits to maximize new mods.

2) More forma because the 14 drain.

As it stands grind or no grind if you also have a Riven there is basically no way to fit these without putting forma on every slot and it might just get you 1 or 2.

Basically I can see only Kuva weapons as being able to hold these new mods with less than 5 forma.

I feel either the drain cost needs to be reduced a little bit or (even better) the arcanes get converted to "stance/aura" mods so the overall capacity is increased and it standardizes the way all warframes and weapons are built.

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14 minutes ago, WolfInstinct said:

And im also allowed to use their service, to complain, to say what its good or bad in my eyes, to try to give them some options on how they could change it as long as im a customer that is not banned from the service and has every right to use it without breaking the rules.

If 50% of the people complain about a product, wouldnt be best to also ask the customer what is wrong with it and ask for their opinion on how you could change it instead of doing only in your way and possibly losing more cusomers?

 

The ones that complain are only trying to say what is good and bad in their eyes. They want the service to become better, so they will want to use it more and more instead of less and less.

They used the same excuse for helminth roar and the bramma. 

"Let me exploit in your game" or "revert this nerf for a single weapon because I'm a customer providing feedback" isn't proper feedback for making the game better.

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1 hour ago, Surbusken said:

You have to pick a narrative, is the problem.

No, the problem is that you don't seem to understand what "balanced properly". It's not the same as just slap high stats on everything and get what is basically a bunch of cloned weapons in different skins - you have to consider all the factors, come up with a buff that is not just "+5% damage -5% fire rate" compared to another similar gun, and then evaluate how it compares to other weapons of a similar tier. Every. Single. One.

If you think this takes "2.7 hours with slacking", you're either clueless, or worse. That's my point.

1 hour ago, Surbusken said:

I don't think anyone should advocate not persuing expansion and improvement?

Impossible task of balancing out current bloated roster is pretty down on a priority list of improvements this game actually needs. I already mentioned that, but i guess it flew over your head, too.

Edited by GREF_TM
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50 minutes ago, WolfInstinct said:

But to answer to the question, yes it is. Even if its for the good or for the bad, "crimes" are less effective, harder to achieve, however you want to call it, for those that do them...So, "crimes are nerfed for the criminals by not being as effective as before"

Semantically, a 'nerf' is an intended reduction in potency for intended behaviour. Nerf provide guns (etc) that do what guns (etc) do but weaker and safer. 

If it's not an intended change: It's an error, a mistaken change, a bug. You fire a blank at an enemy out of a (not Nerf) gun, you loaded the wrong bullet and the gun didn't do remote murder as intended.

If the behaviour wasn't intended: It's a systematic repair, a bugfix. A Nerf gun malfunctions and shoots high-velocity plastic shrapnel fractured from itself posing actual danger, but is recalled and the fault rectified so only harmless foam is shot thenceforth.

 

Ophelia was unintended, exploitative behaviour that was fixed.

The shift to Acolytes was a nerf on the high end of intended essence-farming behaviour, to provide a buff on the rest.

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On 2021-06-18 at 11:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Our goal is to encourage you to use your entire Arsenal in-mission. Switching between Primary, Secondary, and Melee weapons should feel like valid and strategic options

You don't do that by arbitrarily nerfing and balancing various weapons.  You do that by having diverse enemy types and encounters with unique mechanics and AI that create complex patterns that require different weapon solutions to solve each "combat puzzle".

Remember Doom (1994)?  Remember how Doom had multiple different weapons?  Remember how Doom had different enemy types?  Remember how Doom encouraged you to change weapons by throwing those different enemy types at you in different combinations, with each weapon having different strengths and weaknesses?  Remember how each room had enemy positions and number carefully planned out and creatively designed, with enough diversity that you were encountering a slightly different challenge each time?  Doom was a game.  You guys don't have a game.  You have a random number generator that gives the same uniform results over not-very-long period of time.  Enemies flood in, almost always the same types.  Sometimes it switches up and throws something with a different armor type (elemental weakness) at you.  But mostly it's a diluted mess where every encounter is exactly the same as the last one as you drudge dutifully towards the linear exit, or sit in one spot sighing and waiting for a clock to run out.  When you really want to throw something "tough" at the player, you commit the ultimate sin in gaming and just slap an invulnerability window on it.  You have massive flaws in your core gameplay design that need to be addressed that will not be solved by just waving a nerfhammer at one or another class of weapons and then congratulating yourselves on a job well done.  All that does it take the small bits of what enjoyable about a mindless horde shooter and make them just that much more annoying.

It's like eating nothing but cookies every day.  It's tasty for a while, but gets old fast.  We hunger for something different.  But instead of offering steak or pasta or pizza or curry, you just take the chocolate chips out of the cookies and smile and tell us to enjoy the change.

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17 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Semantically, a 'nerf' is an intended reduction in potency for intended behaviour. Nerf provide guns (etc) that do what guns (etc) do but weaker and safer. 

If it's not an intended change: It's an error, a mistaken change, a bug. You fire a blank at an enemy out of a (not Nerf) gun, you loaded the wrong bullet and the gun didn't do remote murder as intended.

If the behaviour wasn't intended: It's a systematic repair, a bugfix. A Nerf gun malfunctions and shoots high-velocity plastic shrapnel fractured from itself posing actual danger, but is recalled and the fault rectified so only harmless foam is shot thenceforth.

 

Ophelia was unintended, exploitative behaviour that was fixed.

The shift to Acolytes was a nerf on the high end of intended essence-farming behaviour, to provide a buff on the rest.

A justified nerf is still a nerf even if it wasnt intended to be used that way.

Its unintended behaviour in devs eyes, less effective/powerful in players eyes.

If something becomes less powerful/effective as before, it is a nerf.

If a bug made you deal no damage with the gun, is a fix.

Ophelia was a nerf, people found out that they can stay there by doing almost nothing. When it got nerfed, that place became less effective as before.

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27 minutes ago, GREF_TM said:

No, the problem is that you don't seem to understand what "balanced properly". It's not the same as just slap high stats on everything and get what is basically a bunch of cloned weapons in different skins - you have to consider all the factors, come up with a buff that is not just "+5% damage -5% fire rate" compared to another similar gun, and then evaluate how it compares to other weapons of a similar tier. Every. Single. One.

If you think this takes "2.7 hours with slacking", you're either clueless, or worse. That's my point.

Impossible task of balancing out current bloated roster is pretty down on a priority list of improvements this game actually needs. I already mentioned that, but i guess it flew over your head, too.

 

That's not what I think, that's what you think, and I am making fun of it.

 

Me, I think the game deserves to have actual concepts and gameplay that supports the different classes of weapons, the damage types and so on. Weapons should have a strategic purpose, maybe even different types of tactical gameplay per weapon.

Just changing some numbers around notepad is the most lazy, simple and cheapest work you can possibly do as a developer, which in turn also makes the gameplay changes equally superficial.

Which is what you hearing people asking over this, what does it matter, what difference does it make, how is this changing the gameplay.

Everything is going to have the exact same problems it had the week before, just with some numbers edited in notepad.

 

It's really only a question if people have any patience left and can live with it, get past it, forgive them. There is no point to it.

They aren't working on any of the game's problems, or anything the players are concerned about.

 

Anger from the players and wasted time that could have been spent on notepad edits somewhere else in the game. Focus schools, broken frames, you name it.

 

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I think these on-kill mods are going to actually work best for non-SP content. They are going to make pretty much any primary and secondary a meta weapon which is kind of good in itself. I don't think they are going to be reliable enough for SP unless you are playing solo. I think a on-hit mechanic would have been much better. Each consecutive shot against a mob increases damage against that mob by 50% with a max stack of 300%. This helps ramp up their damage without making them broken against non-SP content which would die long before the damage would ramp up.   

Edited by ZenHare
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Bah, just do what I'm doing to get used to the nerfs changes.

I'm not running Berserker testing Quickening and Gladiator Vice, I'm also using a R6 Blood Rush at +38.2% and a Condition Overload at R3 +80% on my Scindo Prime, I'll be all set to go when the changes drop. NMCjl.gif

Scindo Prime-Heavy Blade Mizar Skin-Greatsword if anyone is interested

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They should have nerfed melee by making that list of street fighter moves nobody bothers with actually matter. Clearing the whole room would require you to rub two brain cells together, instead just pressing E.

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The more i think at the nerfs, the more absurd i realize they are. Last three years have been a mistake tbh, only the Eidolons are profitable for some players, the rest is falling apart... Dudes, DE, you need to change your mind, completely, 180 degrees. 

Edited by XzWasPzX
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1 minute ago, Bluemillion said:

They should have nerfed melee by making that list of street fighter moves nobody bothers with actually matter. Clearing the whole room would require you to rub two brain cells together, instead just pressing E.

I use the combos on the weapons, they have extra damage and conditions when you do them, mashing 'E' to me is boring as batS#&$.

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On 2021-06-18 at 9:49 AM, Julia-Ambiguity said:

Blood Rush is now equal to Sacrificial Steel at +440% max each, which means that combo builds are dead due to the extra mods required.

 

EDIT: i'm wrong, Sacrificial Steel is +550% with heavy attacks and sacrificial pressure (275%x2) so it's strictly better than Blood Rush, Blood Rush needs at least 50% per combo level to be equal, but for the extra effort an extra 5% for 55% would fit better. (Or just leave it as is at 60%)

This brings up a huge point. 

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So over the weekend I took the opportunity to use the quadruple affinity booster to rework my weapons in preparation for the rework. 
 

I was in the process of bringing a Meta approved primary kit gun up to snuff and running about the steel path Sedna exterminate with a promising amount of development. However it was not for the laughable amount of forward facing damage.
 

building toward meta my [REDACTED] procs would tic so much damage per second that about four hits would kill most mid-tier enemies, one shot would take out the little grunts, and a whole clip was needed for the bombards and heavy units. 
 

Naturally, I got blown up a few times because it was tunnel visioning one enemy to get headshots. The innate crit boost  was obviously helping my [REDACTED] procs but the actual process of shooting the head was petty satisfying with this particular kitgun so I didn’t mind. Still, the damage wasn’t where I needed it tk be to quickly deal with 15 or so enemies flanking me so I went back for one last round of forma. 
 

with the boost it was probably about 6 forma, 7 or 8 runs (because you need to grind to max out the kitgun first before it can be gilded and the real grind begins). And about two hours of work altogether (podcasts keep Warframe alive for me don’t judge).

So this is it. It’s the peak of the essential mods I have and I am on meta with a meta component kitgun build and a pocket full of ambition. 
 

the mod tier guys take about three hits, little guys take one hit, and the heavy gunners still take far more time than I’d like but it’s doable. Of course, in one instance a tiny scorpion comes along while I am trying to test my kit on a bombard and she reels me in. I of course Kip up and stab her as You do. And even though I am using a niche [REDACTED] dagger purely for some situational circumstance not relevant to this exterminate mission in steel path-

 

*poof* she is deleted.

a stray backhand from a two forma melee weapon that has funzo goofy mods more for the [REDACTED] benefit the dagger gives me that doesn’t even relate to this mission, and wow! That enemy is gone before she even knew what hit her!

I then abandon my 7 forma mets primary gun that cost 2.5 hours of real time, thousands of faction cred, and even more time on YouTube searching “steel path builds” and proceed to delete the bombard with my funzo barely-meta Dagger that I usually reserve for [REDACTED] missions so that I can achieve the objective from the daggers [REDACTED] boost. Because I play solo and need the advantage. 
 

so... DE... 

 

a gun that is built for meta that takes almost 3 hours to cultivate is outclassed by a weapon cultivated  out of utility (that actually operates exactly as intended imagine that) but kept equipped in unrelated missions because its fun to use. 
 

Basically, every time I build a gun in this game I tell myself “Man I really hope this is gonna be worth the investment.” And I won’t know for several hours later but by then it’s too late.

 

Conversely every time I build a melee weapon in this game I usually tell myself “oh man this is going to be so badass, I can’t wait to apply this toward X Frame to achieve Y mission objectives and boy this will be especially needed because with Z benefit I can heal myself or [REDACTED BENEFITS] and...”

 

Melee weapons provide so many more uses for so fewer investments of time and currency.  The takeaway is not “oh so you want us to add more time and currency to melee weapons”, it’s how can you make guns more useful. Because for outright killing enemies, they aren’t really so great after a certain point. 
 

used to be status procs were kind of a good bridge so that even if you weren’t lethal you could still be useful but then with the Meta changes toward [REDACTED] the status procs basically became damage modifiers instead. Which, as we have established firmly, don’t really amount to much since you can get blown up while tunnel visioning in on one bad guy. 

 

I know a lot of people have been asking for stance mods for guns but there’s got to be some skill tree you can create strictly for rifles or shotguns that will give you innate punch through, shattering impact, heavier status chance at the top of a magazine transitioning to heavier crit chance in the back end, shotgun bursts that disarm or knockdown enemies so that can’t approach as quickly- anything to make one branch of guns feel like they have a use versus going full on [REDACTED] every single build. Hell, even just letting someone CC an enemy so their teammate can land the kill would be better than running around with DoT BB guns. 
 

*[REDACTED] Tags have been employed to deter Developers from reading only the things that do work and nerfing those things instead of focusing on the grievances at hand.

Edited by (PSN)Alphonso-Alonso
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IMO this change has some both good and bad.  I think the approach to the melee nerfs and Nukor nerfs are the correct approach, regardless of rather the values are correct or not.  Melee did need to be toned down a little bit.  I mean, a melee with just a potato can easily outperform a gun that has 7 forma.

 

The approach to buffing guns is not correct, IMO.  We don't need more mods and arcanes slathered on top of existing stuff.  We need the existing mods, arcanes, and/or weapons adjusted.  On Kill stuff do not change the status quo.  Guns that struggled will continue to struggle and guns that don't will just have av even smoother ride.  Rather, look at existing stuff to tweak and adjust.  With the understanding that not all guns are meant to be end game viable, some guns need help while some mods need help.  Throwing new stuff at the problem does not address it.  Like you said, the longer you avoid properly addressing the problem the worse it'll get.

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I'm kinda disappointed that DE is too focused on doing weapon rebalances/nerfs, than buffing in-game rewards, adding enemy spawn chances (for scanning enemies for codex - for codex completionists), adding/buffing enemy composition/formation mechanics to make the game more fun (Ninja-tier speed enemy types similar to Manics, also similar enemy mechanics that you can see in Honkai Impact 3rd). Even conclave has no changes. No wonder that railjack will possibly get the same "nerf" treatment soon.  You guys can continue with the "future changes" but I can see that some old players are disappoionted too, since some of us invested already with formas on melee weapons with respective riven mods. THis is bad move, and it is just like a history repeats itself that "DE kept nerfing things" but they could have went to a different direction - just to make the game enjoyable to everyone.

- OR Add "a sensible+fair stamina bar/mechanic" when using melee weapons, and just add primary and secondary weapon buffs.

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Man I love firm proof that DE doesn't play their game.

Everyone's already talked about playing the content using subpar setups to get the gear to make setups 'viable' in DE's terms, rather than buffing gun base damage by 10x for example. Hilarious

The nerfs aren't about anything besides wasting your time further because they lack significant content to maintain player counts and are doing nothing to combat that. One and done weapons tossed to credits or returned to modular builders for rep because they're MR fodder.

I'm still of the opinion that DE should take to heart much of brozimes vid a little bit ago addressing modding issues and referring to the plexus, could be solid stuff. Sure feels great to have more quality of life available than taken away, piece by piece.

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Over the weekend I saw a bunch of comments here and on the reddit.  Watched some of the Youtube videos addressing these changes.

I'm definitely thinking in the end I won't feel too changed but this.  I don't play steel path (even though I unlocked it). I've been as free to play as the game allows most of my weapons have no forma investment at all and other than the ones that require it (rank 40). that investment is just 1 or 2 forma. 

I do find it funny that those who are reveling in some other players favorite things getting ruined don't quite understand.

 

You either quit playing and find something else or you stay long enough for the way you play to become the meta.

The way these nerfs have been going players are just going to move on to the next strong thing.  If you are without those melee mods running steel path easy.  Others who were using them will start to play the way you are.  Eventually it will be come popular.  Then it will be your turn for your favorite things to get tuned down for being too strong. 

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