Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide

[wirecard]

On 2021-06-18 at 4:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

This is important because:

- It decouples it from Critical Chance.

Can someone pls explain to me why this is important?

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

10 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

if you are playing the game at all towards the top level content.  Eventually the way you are playing will be too strong.  Even if it is not. Once you reach the "top" your playstyle will be nerfed.  You time investment wasted. Unless of course this was never about that for you.  

Oh, quite the contrary. Here's where you're clearly off base. Using what's too strong is a means to lower the time investment. As you near the "top", you progressively sow investments for alternative ways to beat the top level content, which is more effective near the "top" than the "bottom" due to on average better rewards. Once you've peaked, you progressively reap your investments. By the time the nerfs come around, your backups got you covered.

By the sound of your comment, it appears that you're putting all your eggs in one basket. Not the smartest choice, exactly. Warframe's got multiple options for handling top level content, and you only got yourself to blame for making bad investments and only sticking to a single one of them.

[KikoXv]

Very disappointed to be honest.

When I first joined this game, the story was amazing, the quests were amazing, now......

Even when I spend real money in it I never felt like it was a raw deal, then the nerfs to everything fun started.

Catchmoon, Xoris, Kuva Nukor and those are just the ones I can remember of the top of my head.

I'm saddened to see that Warframe stopped being for "the Fun and Playing" and turned into use every single weapon but only the way the developers envisioned/want it to be used.

Excuse my rant, it does in no way mean that I don't enjoy the game, I love the game and the Universe the amazing team at Digital Extremes created.

In all honesty putting many hours into grinding for fun weapons just for them to be nerfed because they break/reinforce meta killed the experience for me.

No amount of grinding will be worth it because developers can just look at whatever is making players have some fun and kill it.

Recent "balancing" just makes any effort I put into this game seem pointless, whenever I start having fun I can't help but wonder how long will it be until my commitment is turned to dust because it "breaks" the game.

I joined this game because of the amazing story/lore and because of the freedom of choices it provided, now in an effort to balance it you are taking away what made it endearing to me in the first place.

I love the universe you created, and I love your community streams but at this time, investing time and money into a game that grows by cutting down on what makes me want to play it is not worth it.

But hey maybe I'm wrong, and someone at Digital Extremes or one fellow Tenno will read this message and reach the same conclusions I did.

Is this really the direction we want Warframe to go?

When did this game stop being about having fun that everything fun needs to get cut out?

Even if this message only reaches one person be they [DE] staff or a fellow Tenno I hope they will read this and think about my words, we may not be in a place to make change happen but if spread the message hopefully someone who can make real change will notice it.

Sincerely a long time fan

[addamrobin2]

21 minutes ago, Mediloric said:

I do kinda wonder, at this stage, why DE hasn't really said anything since the Workshop, radio silence never goes down well.

they are counting the Tennocon money

[(PSN)Svenx13]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb addamrobin2:

they are counting the Tennocon money

Or they have unlike other people a real life weekend

[mrrobotto67]

hace 29 minutos, Mediloric dijo:

I do kinda wonder, at this stage, why DE hasn't really said anything since the Workshop, radio silence never goes down well.

If they say anything, i would expect it to be between wednesday and friday.

[SergeantNathan]

Two words: Steel Charge

One question: Why is it still the only Rank 9 Aura mod?

One statement: Until you rebalance THIS, most loadouts will bias melee because the fitting disadvantage of NOT using Steel Charge.

[addamrobin2]

6 minutes ago, SergeantNathan said:

Two words: Steel Charge

One question: Why is it still the only Rank 9 Aura mod?

One statement: Until you rebalance THIS, most loadouts will bias melee because the fitting disadvantage of NOT using Steel Charge.

not true, there's Power Donation

even though i do understand your point

[Rosarian]

Hello guys, I feel like it is not a good idea to change the way how the [Berserker] mod works.

While we can successfully trigger this mod’s effect by kill, that means we can play without installing [Berserker]: If the players can kill adds with only 30% attack speed, then 70% attack speed means nothing--just faster within 10s, and the harsh usage conditions make the [Berserker] less useful than[primed fury] and [Quickening].

I could agree with some damage changes, but for the basic using sense of melee weapon, please no. 

And for some high levels mission, like steel path, I believe adds can kill me first before start striggering.

I do use guns, but can someone tell me where are their heads?

 

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

20 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Oh, quite the contrary. Here's where you're clearly off base. Using what's too strong is a means to lower the time investment. As you near the "top", you progressively sow investments for alternative ways to beat the top level content, which is more effective near the "top" than the "bottom" due to on average better rewards. Once you've peaked, you progressively reap your investments. By the time the nerfs come around, your backups got you covered.

By the sound of your comment, it appears that you're putting all your eggs in one basket. Not the smartest choice, exactly. Warframe's got multiple options for handling top level content, and you only got yourself to blame for making bad investments and only sticking to a single one of them.

No. I think I have it right here.  As I am only saying that if you are enjoying yourself by any means other than fashion and handicapping yourself to the point of near torture.  You will be strong as everything that was better will be nerfed eventually in the effort to make it even. Then it will be your turn or your back ups turn and so on.  The idea of having to constantly shift the way you play based on what is popular or eventually will be is what I am addressing. 

Also you may be reading too far into my comments.  As I stated earlier I am not playing the high level content. I am probably one of the most casual players in this game. It took me over two years to finish the start chart. I'll probably never finish the railjack star chart.  When it comes to steel path depending on how it goes I may only do the first mission. 

I'm in no hurry and will never likely see a galvanized mod. 

If anything all this arsenal divide stuff does is convince me I'm doing the right thing. As I'm not going where the meta matters. 

[Fl_3]

41 minutes ago, Mediloric said:

I do kinda wonder, at this stage, why DE hasn't really said anything since the Workshop, radio silence never goes down well.

This is what they always do.

Before any major release that receives even the smallest hint of negative feedback they bury their heads and pretend that the player base doesn't exist. They simply cannot deal with criticism.

 

[(XBOX)Shodian]

1 minute ago, Fl_3 said:

They simply cannot deal with criticism.

 

And you guys cannot simply deal with changes.

[ReLLiKMaster]

Am 18.6.2021 um 16:00 schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

Kuva Nukor

 

We are indeed touching 1 non-Melee item in the series of Nerfs, and likely to no one’s surprise it’s the Kuva Nukor. It’s a dominant Secondary with incredible power, which is warranted given its acquisition. It’ll keep all of its signature behaviour, but the general output is being notched down slightly with the following change:
- Chains targets reduced to 2 from 4

 

This is not how you do it DE. Yes, it might not sound bad in your non gamer head but this was the main purpose of the gun. Most people would use this more as a stat procing weapon than a damage dealing weapon; If you want to minimize the damage then minimize the damage but don't destroy it's purpose. I would rather have a Nukor who atleast chains to 3 people and does less damage overall than an Atomos Prime.

Oh yeah and also: You wanted to make players guse guns more with eachother, well the Nukor was used to proc stats for the Melee to do more damage but now you are destroying the very thing you wanted to go by this patch

Please take another look on this weapon and pay more attention to the community especially if you want to nerf something that you wanted to buff in general anyway.

[Fl_3]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

And you guys cannot simply deal with changes.

It's just another balance pass in a game all about finding the balance.

If it drops as it is or they decide not to release this I'll still be logging into Warframe  to put in a couple of hours every day as it's still one of my favourite games.

Change is an integral part of Warframe, you don't play and not expect changes, most live service games are like this.

But, that doesn't mean that Digital Extremes shouldn't answer people questions about the upcoming update, especially if those people are angry or confused about some of the changes and would like some answers to those questions.

That is bad situational management, probably caused by lack of communication within the company.

Anyway.

I'm sorry that my criticism of the way that Digital Extremes is handling this "Workshop Feedback" thread has offended you so much that you felt the need to post about it.

[Leqesai]

26 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

And you guys cannot simply deal with changes.

[PatrioticEagle]

On 2021-06-18 at 10:00 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Kuva Nukor

 

We are indeed touching 1 non-Melee item in the series of Nerfs, and likely to no one’s surprise it’s the Kuva Nukor. It’s a dominant Secondary with incredible power, which is warranted given its acquisition. It’ll keep all of its signature behaviour, but the general output is being notched down slightly with the following change:
- Chains targets reduced to 2 from 4

it is not the most dominant secondary, its fantastic theres no question about it but it is not the only one players use, its the one most whiny little twerps complain about and those people quite frankly do not count as they are the minority, not the majority. changing its chain is really idiotic if nothing else, you are essentially making it no different than its normal counterpart. how can it even be considered an upgraded version of the original if your making it just like the original? in steel path level content, i wouldnt exactly rely on a kuva nukor to get rid of enemies, it helps but it doesnt nuke them. 

[(PSN)sister-hawk]

1 hour ago, Mediloric said:

I do kinda wonder, at this stage, why DE hasn't really said anything since the Workshop, radio silence never goes down well.

Well I knew they wouldn’t say anything over the weekend, but hopefully now that they are back at work they’ll have someone combing through this thread picking up all the feedback and filtering out the non-constructive stuff.

I have no way of knowing how this will go. There’s been times where they post about upcoming changes that get massive backlash, like the defense objective healing nerf, where they go through with it anyway and ignore all the criticism. And then there was the physical damage rework, which got so much negative feedback they scrapped the whole idea entirely.

It could go either way at this point.

[seargantkailone]

6 minutes ago, PatrioticEagle said:

it is not the most dominant secondary, its fantastic theres no question about it but it is not the only one players use, its the one most whiny little twerps complain about and those people quite frankly do not count as they are the minority, not the majority. changing its chain is really idiotic if nothing else, you are essentially making it no different than its normal counterpart. how can it even be considered an upgraded version of the original if your making it just like the original? in steel path level content, i wouldnt exactly rely on a kuva nukor to get rid of enemies, it helps but it doesnt nuke them. 

That's just it.  The Kuva Nukor, which requires countless hours of Lich (and Lich Larvling) farming to get (not even including the time that it takes to get to the point where you can farm Liches in the first place!!!), will become almost worse than the Atomos, which can be crafted at a pathetic MR 5 and chains to 3 enemies instead of 2...  That, combined with the Condition Overload nerf (which I think is garbage for multiple other reasons), won't make the Nukor balanced but viable - it will make the Nukor weak and not worthwhile...

This is from my personal experience farming for a Kuva Nukor myself.  It took me two whole days-worth of total hours to farm it...  By contrast, the Atomos can be obtained simply by mastering a frame or two, as well as a few weapons...

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

15 minutes ago, PatrioticEagle said:

it is not the most dominant secondary, its fantastic theres no question about it but it is not the only one players use, its the one most whiny little twerps complain about and those people quite frankly do not count as they are the minority, not the majority. changing its chain is really idiotic if nothing else, you are essentially making it no different than its normal counterpart. how can it even be considered an upgraded version of the original if your making it just like the original? in steel path level content, i wouldnt exactly rely on a kuva nukor to get rid of enemies, it helps but it doesnt nuke them. 

https://www.warframe.com/2020stats

According to this over 15% of every player in warframe uses the Kuva Nukor as their main secondary. 

[FallenDisco]

The idea of "on kill" or "on headshot" is going to be very uncomfortable. So that means I will have to use a weapon with no damage on it yet, to kill a bullet sponge, so then I can start snowballing my damage. Damn, I already miss old (current) berserker

[seargantkailone]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

https://www.warframe.com/2020stats

According to this over 15% of every player in warframe uses the Kuva Nukor as their main secondary. 

Agreed, that's a measurable chunk, but isn't that still a minority?

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

Just now, seargantkailone said:

Agreed, that's a measurable chunk, but isn't that still a minority?

A very small minority of players are have completed the startchart or are beyond what MR15.  In regards to the plethora of choices in weapons the secondary category is the most "unbalanced".

I am not for the nerf but as soon as the chart showed up last year the writing was on the wall. 

[Domaik]

Making the fixes arcanes that you obtain in steel path, a super hard mode that you'd have to do without buffs on the weapons to obtain said buffs. Simply put: no this is not the way.

[seargantkailone]

21 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

A very small minority of players are have completed the startchart or are beyond what MR15.  In regards to the plethora of choices in weapons the secondary category is the most "unbalanced".

I am not for the nerf but as soon as the chart showed up last year the writing was on the wall. 

First of all, the third and fourth chains (the ones being dropped) deal a relatively tiny 18% and 5.6% of the weapon's damage to the original target, respectively (each chain deals 0.75^n*(n+1)/2 times the damage to the original target, with n being the chain number). Because of this, it is my firm belief that they are nerfing the Kuva Nukor specifically to nerf its proccing potential for Condition Overload.  Considering that, the Atomos, which requires virtually no farming at all (the BP can be purchased from the market for 30k credits at only MR 5) but chains to 3 enemies, will become the new "meta" melee proccer, specifically because it will provide better area proccing than the relatively insane-to-grind Kuva Nukor.  Additionally, the fact that the Atomos can only get two status types won't really matter, since the nerfed Condition Overload will only have a cap of 3 status types.

Personally, a better way to even out the distribution of secondaries would be to introduce mods (like the Galvanized mods, but maybe somewhat stronger) that make other secondaries actually useful instead of nullifying the farming that countless people have done specifically because the Nukor is one of the only viable secondaries out there.

[Teridax68]

TL;DR: The reason why people overcommit to melee right now is because of stacking mods that push players to commit to a single weapon in order to generate stacking power buffs that need to be constantly refreshed, or otherwise lost. DE's answer to this is to implement this same kind of mod to guns, thereby pulling players in three separate directions and having them commit to one.

For a short and sweet explanation, the mods DE targeted in the dev workshop to nerf melee are Berserker, Blood Rush, and Condition Overload: the connecting thread to all these mods is that they all reward the player with stacking buffs to melee, usually for doing stuff in melee. Melee as a system also has a combo counter that rewards players for committing to melee with more powerful heavy attacks, which Blood Rush capitalizes on in particular by basing its stacks on that counter. This all leads to some fairly obvious cause and effect: the more you stick to melee, the stronger you become in melee. Because mods like Blood Rush and Condition Overload in particular are nuts, committing to melee pretty much all the time is optimal for higher-level play.

Because of this, it made sense to target those mods... except DE also chose to give guns similar stacking mods. The more one commits to the weapons with these new mods, the more powerful those weapons will get, which is likely to bring us back to the exact same problem. If these changes hit melee especially hard, the situation may well reverse and leave us in a gun-centric meta. This is to say nothing of how these mods and arcanes are going to be flooding our UI with stack indicators, all of which could just be resumed to "more damage".

Really, one of the following two should have occurred:

1. DE could've replaced Blood Rush and Condition Overload with mods that didn't encourage players to spam melee all the time, which Blood Rush is still going to incentivize players to do. If they were feeling adventurous, they could also have targeted the melee combo counter itself.
2. DE could've had each of these stacking mechanisms consistantly grant power to all of our weapons, so that we'd be encouraged to use the full breadth of our arsenal to maximize our power.

Instead, what we're set to have is an added layer of power creep, nerfs that are unlikely to equalize the scales, and the same mechanic responsible for dividing our arsenal now turned into some high-end standard for weapon modding. I do not have a good feeling about these changes.