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Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide


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21 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

A very small minority of players are have completed the startchart or are beyond what MR15.  In regards to the plethora of choices in weapons the secondary category is the most "unbalanced".

I am not for the nerf but as soon as the chart showed up last year the writing was on the wall. 

First of all, the third and fourth chains (the ones being dropped) deal a relatively tiny 18% and 5.6% of the weapon's damage to the original target, respectively (each chain deals 0.75n*(n+1)/2 times the damage to the original target, with n being the chain number). Because of this, it is my firm belief that they are nerfing the Kuva Nukor specifically to nerf its proccing potential for Condition Overload.  Considering that, the Atomos, which requires virtually no farming at all (the BP can be purchased from the market for 30k credits at only MR 5) but chains to 3 enemies, will become the new "meta" melee proccer, specifically because it will provide better area proccing than the relatively insane-to-grind Kuva Nukor.  Additionally, the fact that the Atomos can only get two status types won't really matter, since the nerfed Condition Overload will only have a cap of 3 status types.

Personally, a better way to even out the distribution of secondaries would be to introduce mods (like the Galvanized mods, but maybe somewhat stronger) that make other secondaries actually useful instead of nullifying the farming that countless people have done specifically because the Nukor is one of the only viable secondaries out there.

Edited by seargantkailone
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TL;DR: The reason why people overcommit to melee right now is because of stacking mods that push players to commit to a single weapon in order to generate stacking power buffs that need to be constantly refreshed, or otherwise lost. DE's answer to this is to implement this same kind of mod to guns, thereby pulling players in three separate directions and having them commit to one.

For a short and sweet explanation, the mods DE targeted in the dev workshop to nerf melee are Berserker, Blood Rush, and Condition Overload: the connecting thread to all these mods is that they all reward the player with stacking buffs to melee, usually for doing stuff in melee. Melee as a system also has a combo counter that rewards players for committing to melee with more powerful heavy attacks, which Blood Rush capitalizes on in particular by basing its stacks on that counter. This all leads to some fairly obvious cause and effect: the more you stick to melee, the stronger you become in melee. Because mods like Blood Rush and Condition Overload in particular are nuts, committing to melee pretty much all the time is optimal for higher-level play.

Because of this, it made sense to target those mods... except DE also chose to give guns similar stacking mods. The more one commits to the weapons with these new mods, the more powerful those weapons will get, which is likely to bring us back to the exact same problem. If these changes hit melee especially hard, the situation may well reverse and leave us in a gun-centric meta. This is to say nothing of how these mods and arcanes are going to be flooding our UI with stack indicators, all of which could just be resumed to "more damage".

Really, one of the following two should have occurred:

  1. DE could've replaced Blood Rush and Condition Overload with mods that didn't encourage players to spam melee all the time, which Blood Rush is still going to incentivize players to do. If they were feeling adventurous, they could also have targeted the melee combo counter itself.
  2. DE could've had each of these stacking mechanisms consistantly grant power to all of our weapons, so that we'd be encouraged to use the full breadth of our arsenal to maximize our power.

Instead, what we're set to have is an added layer of power creep, nerfs that are unlikely to equalize the scales, and the same mechanic responsible for dividing our arsenal now turned into some high-end standard for weapon modding. I do not have a good feeling about these changes.

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3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Instead, what we're set to have is an added layer of power creep, nerfs that are unlikely to equalize the scales, and the same mechanic responsible for dividing our arsenal now turned into some high-end standard for weapon modding. I do not have a good feeling about these changes.

Pretty much, hope you guys like the Kuva Bramma, because it's coming back...with 360% extra damage and 200% multishot.

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Strong agreement! The game systems should incentivize mixing it up, fluidly swapping between weapons and styles during combat to adapt to changing situations. This keeps things fresh, and encourages diversity in arsenal choices.

As you said the current proposed changes are severely limiting. It incentivizes a feeling of "Well, if I switch to my secondary weapon I'll end up losing the buff stacks on my primary, so I better just keep using my primary!" in exactly the same way that melee currently does - and I thought this was exactly the problem they were trying to fix...

Oh well.

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1 minute ago, seargantkailone said:

First of all, the third and fourth chains (the ones being dropped) deal a relatively tiny 18% and 5.6% of the weapon's damage to the original target, respectively (each chain deals 0.75n*(n+1)/2 times the damage to the original target, with n being the chain number). Because of this, it is my firm belief that they are only nerfing the Kuva Nukor specifically to nerf its proccing potential for Condition Overload.  Considering that, the Atomos, which requires virtually no farming at all (the BP can be purchased from the market for 30k credits at only MR 5) but chains to 3 enemies, will become the new "meta" melee proccer, specifically because it will provide better area proccing than the relatively insane-to-grind Kuva Nukor.  Additionally, the fact that it can only get two status types won't even matter, since the nerfed Condition Overload will only have a cap of 3 status types.

Personally, a better way to even out the distribution of secondaries would be to introduce mods (like the Galvanized mods, but maybe somewhat stronger) that make other secondaries actually useful instead of nullifying the farming that countless people have done specifically because the Nukor is one of the only viable secondaries out there.

No disagreement from me.  However, history of nerfs have shown that the track record is that things only get nerfed when they are popular. K. Nukor was/is popular so nerf.

Atomos will likely get the nerf treatment all the same if it becomes the meta. 

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11 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

TL;DR: The reason why people overcommit to melee right now is because of stacking mods that push players to commit to a single weapon in order to generate stacking power buffs that need to be constantly refreshed, or otherwise lost. DE's answer to this is to implement this same kind of mod to guns, thereby pulling players in three separate directions and having them commit to one.

For a short and sweet explanation, the mods DE targeted in the dev workshop to nerf melee are Berserker, Blood Rush, and Condition Overload: the connecting thread to all these mods is that they all reward the player with stacking buffs to melee, usually for doing stuff in melee. Melee as a system also has a combo counter that rewards players for committing to melee with more powerful heavy attacks, which Blood Rush capitalizes on in particular by basing its stacks on that counter. This all leads to some fairly obvious cause and effect: the more you stick to melee, the stronger you become in melee. Because mods like Blood Rush and Condition Overload in particular are nuts, committing to melee pretty much all the time is optimal for higher-level play.

Because of this, it made sense to target those mods... except DE also chose to give guns similar stacking mods. The more one commits to the weapons with these new mods, the more powerful those weapons will get, which is likely to bring us back to the exact same problem. If these changes hit melee especially hard, the situation may well reverse and leave us in a gun-centric meta. This is to say nothing of how these mods and arcanes are going to be flooding our UI with stack indicators, all of which could just be resumed to "more damage".

Really, one of the following two should have occurred:

  1. DE could've replaced Blood Rush and Condition Overload with mods that didn't encourage players to spam melee all the time, which Blood Rush is still going to incentivize players to do. If they were feeling adventurous, they could also have targeted the melee combo counter itself.
  2. DE could've had each of these stacking mechanisms consistantly grant power to all of our weapons, so that we'd be encouraged to use the full breadth of our arsenal to maximize our power.

Instead, what we're set to have is an added layer of power creep, nerfs that are unlikely to equalize the scales, and the same mechanic responsible for dividing our arsenal now turned into some high-end standard for weapon modding. I do not have a good feeling about these changes.

Uhh, primary and secondary dexterity arcanes?

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1 hour ago, seargantkailone said:

Agreed, that's a measurable chunk, but isn't that still a minority?

the part they care about is this, usage by MR. that's the categorization that was the rationalization for the catchmoon nerf.

1KeK1wK.png

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1 hour ago, PatrioticEagle said:

it is not the most dominant secondary, its fantastic theres no question about it but it is not the only one players use, its the one most whiny little twerps complain about and those people quite frankly do not count as they are the minority, not the majority. changing its chain is really idiotic if nothing else, you are essentially making it no different than its normal counterpart. how can it even be considered an upgraded version of the original if your making it just like the original? in steel path level content, i wouldnt exactly rely on a kuva nukor to get rid of enemies, it helps but it doesnt nuke them. 

Perhaps instead of cutting back The number of targets spread too they could have just reduced its range. 

 

Buff prime pressure point up to 240% damage bonus making it equal to the revised condition overload at three stacks. CO can exceed it at 4+ stacks

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1 hour ago, torint_man said:

Uhh, primary and secondary dexterity arcanes?

Yes, one specific kind of arcane among three, along with over a half-dozen new mods, all of which aside from that one are designed to make the weapon you're using stronger if you commit to using that specific weapon. Unless you are asking for everyone to use that arcane only, which would make play just as stagnant as it is now, people are likely going to be using those other arcanes and mods, and thus continuing to experience the same problem as what we have now.

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2 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

As I stated earlier I am not playing the high level content. I am probably one of the most casual players in this game. It took me over two years to finish the start chart. I'll probably never finish the railjack star chart.  When it comes to steel path depending on how it goes I may only do the first mission.

(...)

As I'm not going where the meta matters. 

Ah, I see. In other words, this point of yours is coming from no personal experience whatsoever.

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

If you are playing the game at all towards the top level content.  Eventually the way you are playing will be too strong.  Even if it is not. Once you reach the "top" your playstyle will be nerfed.  Your time investment wasted. Unless of course this was never about that for you.  

And I get that. Perhaps you're all about fashion frame and captura. I doubt that will ever get tuned down. 

But how things exist now.  There will never not be a meta. Never a point when it is all perfectly balanced and in a good spot. 

Which naturally means that the following is also based on the same lack of experience.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

No. I think I have it right here.  As I am only saying that if you are enjoying yourself by any means other than fashion and handicapping yourself to the point of near torture.  You will be strong as everything that was better will be nerfed eventually in the effort to make it even. Then it will be your turn or your back ups turn and so on.  The idea of having to constantly shift the way you play based on what is popular or eventually will be is what I am addressing. 

As someone who's played more high level content than you, I can speak from facts when I say this: You don't have to shift the way you play based on what's popular. You'll get to a point where the game's easy enough for a good number of alternatives to be strong, even at top level, and then you're free to pick and choose your playstyle. No "handicapping to the point of near torture" or anything.

In short, you're factually wrong.

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

;-)

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44 minutes ago, Oorel said:

the part they care about is this, usage by MR. that's the categorization that was the rationalization for the catchmoon nerf.

1KeK1wK.png

And the stupid thing is if they go through with these changes the nukor will only be used more! They REALLY thought this through

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4 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Ah, I see. In other words, this point of yours is coming from no personal experience whatsoever.

Which naturally means that the following is also based on the same lack of experience.

As someone who's played more high level content than you, I can speak from facts when I say this: You don't have to shift the way you play based on what's popular. You'll get to a point where the game's easy enough for a good number of alternatives to be strong, even at top level, and then you're free to pick and choose your playstyle. No "handicapping to the point of near torture" or anything.

In short, you're factually wrong.

If that's the way you feel about it.  I have commented in other threads about the melee/gun divide in the arsenal. I never found the issue to be with SP which they are balancing these changes around.  I always felt it was about the investment required to make guns preform like melee.  I've always been able to play with melee with 1 or 2 mods and no potato and felt comfortable. With most guns I always have to a put potato just to not find it frustrating to use in basic star chart missions. 

But you are there and you seem to be happy with how all this played out. So I will give that to you. 

I'll just continue to ignore this stuff exists as these changes don't address the issues I have with the current systems. 

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There is hardly any equipment that can attack effectively against too high enemy durability. It's not the weapons that are too strong, it's the enemies that are too strong that kill the diversity.
So an easy way to bring back the option of gun combat and equipment diversity is to eliminate buffs to enemies in Steel Path, not nerfs in Melee.

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ETA on mod rework? I really hope you guys dont think the build diversity is in good place right now. You could hit two birds with one stone, but instead we got another round of bandaids.

Edited by Sybaris
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Public Safety Announcement:
If you have not disabled screen shake in your options, do it so before you end up in a comp with an Acceltra wielding Mirage with Merciless and 300%+ Multishot.
If you decide not to do so, and the visual overload of a single barrage causes your game to CTD, don't say I didn't warn you.

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6 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

you stay long enough for the way you play to become the meta.

Playing from 2015 (with long breaks, but still), but my excal is still a below average frame that haven't became meta. What am I doing wrong lol? Because I really want excal to become meta.

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Again, why all the updates end up with nerfs? This isn't a PvP game where "balance" needs to be attained due to some unfair disadvantage. Melee 3.0 was so good and now that people are having fun with it you guys nerf so we have to switch back to guns until you guys decide guns aren't fun anymore and nerf whatever guns people make popular. 
C'mon. 

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2 hours ago, (XBOX)CFG SatanDevil said:

Ok, the higher MR player use the Nukor for status procs because they play SP where u need it. 
 

 

Exactly.  I just unlocked SP, and without Kuva Nukor + CO, I would not have been able to hack it (pun totally intended).  I just did a Simulacrum test of a CO/BR/WW Corr/Heat setup without a Kuva Nukor against some level 100 Heavy Gunners, and it takes forever just to take down a SINGLE Heavy Gunner (without even worrying about taking fire from other enemies).  Let's not even talk about a Nox with its funky and overpowered damage reduction formula, or even higher-leveled enemies...

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