Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide

[MythosoftheFabledDream]

I saw a lot of interesting things in this Re-work. I did not see mention of anything concerning Exalted Weapons. Will they receive the Arcane (In the case of Peacemaker)? Will they be given any type of adjustment with some of these changes? Will Exalted Weapons finally be allowed to equip Blood Rush, Condition Overload, etc.? Just found it odd with all of these adjustments, not a word on the weapons that are iconic to certain Frames in the game.

[Leqesai]

15 minutes ago, seargantkailone said:

But only because it's the most useful secondary.  If it weren't for the Nukor's CO synergy, I wouldn't even have a secondary equipped cuz they mostly kinda suck compared to melee and primary weapons, tbh...

I completely disagree here. Using it for CO priming is an incredible waste of time IMO. As a MR 30 player who regularly engages in the most difficult content available I can safely say I'ven ever felt inclined to prime anything for CO. 

Kuva Nukor is -incredibly- powerful as a hybrid viral+crit weapon. Getting a crit-viable build takes a bit more work than other weapons due to the really low crit % but once you figure out how to effectively build for crit+viral the thing not only becomes steel path viable but retains its usefulness as one of the most important aspects to a steel path loadout. Even with the chaining nerf this will remain. 

[Zilotz]

On 2021-06-18 at 5:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Berserker is changing from:

+30% Attack Speed (Max 75%) for 24s on Critical Hit
 

To:

Beserker Fury, cannot stack with Fury.
On Melee Kill:
+35% Attack Speed (Max 70%)  for 10s. Stacks up to 2x. 

That looks really bad - in high lvl content you cannot kill that fast.

Also making it incompatible with Fury/PrimedFury ruins a lot of builds for slower weapons.

Already you did nerf a lot melee system compared to what it was and now you are making it even worse.

I strongly oppose this kind of policy "It it is good we nerf it, we do not want things to be good!".

You did it many times before but almost every time it was not a good option in the end.

On 2021-06-18 at 5:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Blood Rush:

 

Blood Rush’s maximum value is being lowered.This changes the achievability of consistent Red Crits from just one Mod (on most Melee weapons, some High-Critical exceptions), and now additional help will be needed via Mods, Arcanes, or Warframe abilities to achieve consistent Red Crits. 

 

One Mod alone generally delivering the best tier of Criticals felt too powerful.

Blood Rush is changing from:
+60% Critical Chance stacks with Combo Multiplier

To

+40% Critical Chance stacks with Combo Multiplier

Can you please stop doing it already? It is already weak enough and you are making it even weaker.

On 2021-06-18 at 5:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Condition Overload

Condition Overload’s maximum value is being lowered. It’s been some time since we originally changed this Mod, and in this time we’ve decided we’re still not happy with the way this goes up against other Damage Mods (namely Primed Pressure Point). We’ve reduced this to 80% to make it almost as good as Primed Pressure Point, and 3 Status Types back to where it was originally. It remains true that even though the maximum potential damage is lower now, we think it is still an extremely powerful Mod in its latest iteration.

 

There should now be a more meaningful choice: do you want front loaded damage or a build up from multiple Status Types?

Condition Overload is changing from:
+120% Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target.

To

+80% Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target. 

Do you want to nerf every useful mod out there? Maybe you should think of buffing well primary/secondary instead to give good options?

On 2021-06-18 at 5:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Glaives

Now you are literally killing one category of melee...

Sure, most popular one as it is convenient to use.

Instead of looking at why other categories are less used(and buffing weakest options) you always target the one that is more popular to nerf it to the ground.

On 2021-06-18 at 5:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Because the Gunplay falloff is more of a late-game problem, these new Upgrades will be earned through late-game content systems -- namely, the Steel Path.

Wait, how would we aern them if the only more or less working option for Steel Path is melee that you will nerf a lot?

On 2021-06-18 at 5:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Primary and Secondary Weapon Arcanes

 

On 2021-06-18 at 5:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Galvanized Mods

Ad as a buff you offer us Arcanes and Mods that work on kill/headshot kill so will be useless for high level content as we cannot kill those mobs with guns anyway.

So both primary and secondary will be as weak as they are(excluding Kuva Nukor that gets nerfed) and melee will be nerfed.

 

Looking at all those changes i feel like there is a really wrong move - those changes do not change situation for the better for melee and guns.

Literally buffs offered here are fully irrelevant because they do not address the main problem - most of guns fall off too much to kill anything.

And melee nerfs do make killing even harder for Steel Path.

Please consider some good changes that will be relevant for secondary/primary.

And if possible please stop decreasing our power again and again as it makes even less fun every time.

Also as this update will be centered around SteelPath please give us good weapons to do it.

[GREF_TM]

3 minutes ago, Zilotz said:

Now you are literally killing one category of melee...

Think, Zilotz, think!

They haven’t nerfed heavy throw damage. They haven’t nerfed splash radius. They haven’t removed forced procs, not even slash on glaive/p. They haven’t even touched a single heavy attack mod. Yet glaives are somehow killed?

Are you really going to pretend that  charge startup changing from 0.3 to 0.6 will "kill" glaives? It won’t.

[garbenzine]

I've got a bit of a hot take; the simple answer is to make the max cap for enemies be Lv120, no matter how long you marathon a mission.  No need for ultra min-max when mobs can't get so strong that you can't kill them reliably outside certain metas.

[Conderp]

There's a lot of people that disagree with the nerf on the Kuva Nukor but I think it's fine. I thought that it would be more nerfed but this is fine. That weapon is used to proc a ton of status and just cut like butter everything with ANY melee with Condition Overload. We see a lot of players just using Wukong + Nukor + Kronen and they call that "fun". 

 

On the other side, I see a big problem putting those new arcanes on Steel Path to make your weapons really do damage. But, if melee is nerfed and primary weapons are kinda "meh" without those arcanes how new players are going to get to farm those arcanes? This is like AMPs where to get better AMPs you need to do Eidolon captures getting carried. They will need to get carried on SP to get those new arcanes. This could possible generate some kind of leech on some public missions. (I think that will not be a big problem tho, cuz a lot of "endgame" players just play solo or melt everything in 3 seconds). Also, where is Galvanized Sight for shotguns? Seems like shotguns are just abandoned and that's really sad. There's another "problem" with the Bramma because it is already OP and with these mods I think it will be more meta than ever. I could say Acceltra will also be really OP with new mods and arcanes.

But hey, these are only possibilities and we don't know how really is going to be the new meta until we get the update. I just want to see less Wukongs + Nukor + Kronen combos LOL.

 

 

 

[(PSN)sister-hawk]

1 minute ago, garbenzine said:

I've got a bit of a hot take; the simple answer is to make the max cap for enemies be Lv120, no matter how long you marathon a mission.  No need for ultra min-max when mobs can't get so strong that you can't kill them reliably outside certain metas.

Well to be honest they never should have added endless scaling to the game in the first place. I think it’s been a source of a lot of their balance problems. Frankly they never should have let enemy levels get above 30, or maybe 60. But that ship sailed long ago. There’s no way they could ever take away endless scaling now without a small scale player revolt from the minority who actually cares at all about endurance runs.

[seargantkailone]

1 minute ago, Leqesai said:

I completely disagree here. Using it for CO priming is an incredible waste of time IMO. As a MR 30 player who regularly engages in the most difficult content available I can safely say I'ven ever felt inclined to prime anything for CO. 

Kuva Nukor is -incredibly- powerful as a hybrid viral+crit weapon. Getting a crit-viable build takes a bit more work than other weapons due to the really low crit % but once you figure out how to effectively build for crit+viral the thing not only becomes steel path viable but retains its usefulness as one of the most important aspects to a steel path loadout. Even with the chaining nerf this will remain. 

First of all, I have to admit that I have made a slight miscommunication:  I did not intend to say that all secondaries (including the Nukor) sucked as standalone weapons, and I would 100% agree that the right Nukor build can make for quite the powerful SP weapon.

That said, the reason they're nerfing the weapon does not seem to be because of its standalone damage, at least based on the impact the nerf really has.  The two extra chains they're removing decreases the total damage by less than 10% by virtue of the fact that chain damage follows the formula 0.75^n*(n+1)/2.  This is even less if you get consistent headshots, since the headshot multiplier doesn't affect subsequent chains.  In turn, this confirms what you said about the chaining nerf not really impacting the Nukor's usefulness as a standalone SP weapon.  With punch-through, you really won't notice much of a difference, since hits caused by punch-through still chain (if they really wish to decimate the Nukor's popularity, that is what needs to be nerfed, instead).  So, the trait the nerf impacts the most is really how easily the Nukor is capable of spreading procs around.  Without the ability to spread procs as easily, they are effectively nerfing CO even further for particular builds, since it becomes harder to apply procs to a group of enemies.

On a related note, CO priming is quite powerful, and allows melee builds to approach single-target DPS levels otherwise attainable only by warframes (hacking down a Nox without having to worry about breaking their helmet is quite therapeutic).  For instance, you can use your proccer to get your 4.25x damage with viral procs (which combines multiplicatively with the base damage gained from CO), and then use corrosive on your melee to pull a 75% damage bonus stacked with a 75% armor bypass.  If DE really wishes to promote a variety of playstyles as they claim, it seems to me that nerfing the Nukor in their proposed fashion is the first way they should not go about doing so.

Finally, as I'm sure you know, the Kuva Nukor is a pain in the butt to farm (I personally spent two whole days just farming Larvlings - that doesn't even count farming the SP-level Lich itself).  It should be a powerful weapon that is popular with higher-level players.  It's just sad that the other secondaries are bad enough that the Nukor is the most dominant secondary for high-level content.

[seargantkailone]

21 minutes ago, Conderp said:

But hey, these are only possibilities and we don't know how really is going to be the new meta until we get the update. I just want to see less Wukongs + Nukor + Kronen combos LOL.

I believe that the reason Wukong/Nukor/Kronen is so popular is simply because that is the easiest way to obtain large amounts of damage for high-level content (barring the fact that it does take a while to farm a Nukor).  What DE needs to do is provide a mod synergy obtainable without SP farming that allows primaries and secondaries to deal a similar amount of damage, without making said melee builds obsolete.  The popularity of these builds will naturally decrease as the use of primary- and secondary-centered builds becomes more feasible.

As someone who is currently running a Wukong/Nukor/melee build for high-level content (not Kronen, since I don't have it), I have to say running the build does get quite old quite fast (primarily since the Twin can't shoot worth a hoot), and I would love to run a ranged Chroma build (for instance) and actually aim again XD.  If primaries and secondaries were buffed, I would jump on those builds in a heartbeat.  However, the melee synergy is the only viable build I have that is good enough to somewhat alleviate the tedium of Lich farming, SP's, arbitrations, and other such high-level content.

[seargantkailone]

Considering everything I've said and read here, I would like to make a few suggestions:

1. Leave the Condition Overload, Berserker, and Blood Rush nerfs alone.  They are all accessible in-game with moderate degrees of grindiness (the one exception may be Berserker, which is actually more difficult to farm), and should consequently provide a substantial boost to damage output (this is even more important because of the steep increase in Grineer tankiness with each consecutive level).
    
2. Leave the Kuva Nukor alone.  Similar to the mods I mentioned above, it is a pain in the butt to farm (bigger, actually), and should therefore be a valuable reward for people to strive for.  Additionally, the nerf doesn't significantly impact the direct damage output of the weapon itself, and would only serve to nullify CO even further.  Essentially, in terms of promoting the use of multiple different playstyles using the weapon (such as Kuva Nukor mains and CO-priming mains), it is fine as is.  In fact, the relative versatility of this weapon in end-game content compared to essentially every other secondary in the game is what makes the weapon so beautiful, and is most likely the primary reason people use it so heavily.  Expanding the capabilities of other weapons without nerfing the Nukor should result in a larger diversity of secondary usage at end-game.
    
3. Finally, a set of primary/secondary mods similar to the Galvanized mods proposed in this forum should be introduced.  However, I think they can be better balanced with respect to the currently existing melee weapon mods.  (This idea is largely based on the Hata-Satya for Soma Prime, but should be more useful):
   1. After landing a certain number of hits with a weapon (similar to the combo count for melee weapons), these mods will reach their maximum potential, which will be the same for all weapons.  However, the total number of hits that need to be landed will be dependent on a variety of unmodded weapon stats, including base multishot, base magazine capacity, base fire rate, and base accuracy.  After performing some calculations on these stats, you will obtain a percentage representing the size of the gain from each hit landed.  Stacks will last a certain period of time, after which they start to decay.  Gaining new stacks (or reapplying new stacks in the case where all stacks are maxed out) will refresh the duration of these effects.  Adding additional multishot and fire rate will improve the rate at which the buffs are gained.  These mods will form the set of Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds analogs.
   2. You will have have mods similar to the Galvanized multishot mods, but again, it should be based on hits instead of kills.
   3. Finally, you will have a CO mod for primaries and secondaries.  In fact, due to the fact that the Galvanized multishot mods provide a 200% multishot at max strength (essentially a 3x damage multiplier), I would even argue that the current 40% damage boost per status type might be large enough - as long as it isn't capped.

[seargantkailone]

1 minute ago, Maka.Bones said:

just asking you to clarify, so your intent is better understood... when you say "leave the...nerfs alone" do you mean to leave them nerfed and done? Or do you mean to leave the mods alone, without nerf? 

The "leave the nerfs alone" to me sounds like you want them to remain nerfed. However the rest of the context sounds like you're making a good point for why they should remain strong/un-nerfed. 

Sorry for the confusion:  I meant to say that the nerfs should not happen.  Thanks for bringing that up!

[Maka.Bones]

2 hours ago, MythosoftheDamned said:

I saw a lot of interesting things in this Re-work. I did not see mention of anything concerning Exalted Weapons. Will they receive the Arcane (In the case of Peacemaker)? Will they be given any type of adjustment with some of these changes? Will Exalted Weapons finally be allowed to equip Blood Rush, Condition Overload, etc.? Just found it odd with all of these adjustments, not a word on the weapons that are iconic to certain Frames in the game.

I sure hope they include the arcane options for the exalted weapons. 

[Zilotz]

3 hours ago, GREF_TM said:

Think, Zilotz, think!

They haven’t nerfed heavy throw damage.

Okay.. Thinking....

1) Throw damage is based on base damage.

2) Base damage gets 2-3 times weaker.

3) Damage/speed boosting mods get weaker from loss of berserker mod and big nerf to BloodRush/ConditionOverload.

3) Glaives get 2-6 times weaker(in total, counting base damage and mod nerf) for any attack.

[Frendh]

 

3 hours ago, garbenzine said:

I've got a bit of a hot take; the simple answer is to make the max cap for enemies be Lv120, no matter how long you marathon a mission.  No need for ultra min-max when mobs can't get so strong that you can't kill them reliably outside certain metas.

No thank you. I wanted the current max cap of level 9999 to be increased. And an optional way to make the enemies scale a lot faster. After the melee nerf I do not think I will be able to kill level 9999 enemies though. I want the high levels for e-peen size.

If it is too hot in the kitchen, get out of the kitchen. Don't spoil the fun for others.

[Slayer-.]

 

7 hours ago, (XBOX)R4ILGUN S said:

Where are the buffs on primary and secondary weapons?  I only saw melee nerfs but no buffs

You get the buffs by playing Steel Path to get the mods and Arcanes to put on your pew pew weapons, then you'll have a buff. 

5 hours ago, seargantkailone said:

Exactly.  I just unlocked SP, and without Kuva Nukor + CO, I would not have been able to hack it (pun totally intended).  I just did a Simulacrum test of a CO/BR/WW Corr/Heat setup without a Kuva Nukor against some level 100 Heavy Gunners, and it takes forever just to take down a SINGLE Heavy Gunner (without even worrying about taking fire from other enemies).  Let's not even talk about a Nox with its funky and overpowered damage reduction formula, or even higher-leveled enemies...

 you don't need a Kuva Nukor to play Steel Path, I finished Steel Path solo without using a Kuva Nukor, though looking at your Secondaries that's about the best of the bunch, Atmos can kill SP enemies, I was trying mine out yesterday, Pandero with a crit build should do it as well.

[Frendh]

15 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

you don't need a Kuva Nukor to play Steel Path,

This is true. Combine warframe abilities with melee and I do not even need all the meta melee mods to clear steel path solo. Any prime melee weapon works. A lot of the non primes also work.  If I have the meta mods I can do it with melee only, unless you need range to comfortably hit the target. No primary, no secondary, no abilities. Melee is really strong, kuva nukor is merely some extra sprinkles on the ice cream. I don't own a kuva nukor.

That said, Kuva nukor is really good. That is why it is in the current meta. The majority of people do not have the time or the will to figure things out on their own though. Hence its popularity.

[Slayer-.]

 

3 minutes ago, Frendh said:

This is true. Combine warframe abilities with melee and I do not even need all the meta melee mods to clear steel path solo. Any prime melee weapon works. A lot of the non primes also work.  If I have the meta mods I can do it with melee only, unless you need range to comfortably hit the target. No primary, no secondary, no abilities. Melee is really strong, kuva nukor is merely some extra sprinkles on the ice cream. I don't own a kuva nukor.

That said, Kuva nukor is really good. That is why it is in the current meta. The majority of people do not have the time or the will to figure out things on their own though. Hence its popularity.

Exactly, I'm not the best or knowledgable at playing this game but I work it out in the end, to me if you cannot kill stuff in the game then maybe it's time to retreat and work out why you can't, or it's trying to tell you that maybe your not quite ready for that game mode yet.

[GREF_TM]

2 hours ago, Zilotz said:

Okay.. Thinking....

No, you’re not. You’re still overreacting.

From what I know, heavy throw damage is a separate value that is not affected by quick throw damage, so unless DE decided to stealth nerf it without mentioning in the workshop, heavy attacks will keep their damage, but given how they specifically mentioned this nerf affecting only quick throw and how the reason behind it is to increase difference between the two, such nerf would make no sense.

CO and BR are not staple in a heavy attack build. You’d pretty much always want sac steel for crits and PP + A.Fury for upfront damage, which, paired with guaranteed bleed, will be more than enough for pretty much any content out there, unless you’re going too deep into steel path endless, but doing so has no actual purpose anyway.

The only real nerf is small heavy attack startup increase and so-so animation speed decrease you get for switching from berserker to fury, but let’s face it, some kind of nerf was only a matter of time, as glaives were a bit too much powerful considering their immense range, and even put most launchers to shame (everything aside from bramma, probably) by doing the same thing but with infinite ammo, built-in manual detonation and far better mods. And I’d gladly take a reasonable nerf to overall attack speed over something that would’ve been actually harmful, like removing forced slash from glaive and more aggressive falloff.

[Xsoskeleton]

On 2021-06-18 at 9:00 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Condition Overload

Condition Overload’s maximum value is being lowered. It’s been some time since we originally changed this Mod, and in this time we’ve decided we’re still not happy with the way this goes up against other Damage Mods (namely Primed Pressure Point). We’ve reduced this to 80% to make it almost as good as Primed Pressure Point, and 3 Status Types back to where it was originally. It remains true that even though the maximum potential damage is lower now, we think it is still an extremely powerful Mod in its latest iteration.

 

There should now be a more meaningful choice: do you want front loaded damage or a build up from multiple Status Types?

Why is CO keep getting nerfed over and over? Why make this mod same stat to pressure point to begin with? I really fail to see the reasoning behind this.

I feel like DE never tried to ask the whole community how they felt about the existing system back before melee 3.0 stuff ever happened. Sure back then CO on top of Crit build were absolute beast, but going Hybrid sacrifices some multipliers in the modding where you can put more when going pure status or pure crit and on its own it balances each setup out better than it is rn. For example:

• Having to use weaker element mods with status chance percentages or sacrifice another slot to put weeping wounds in if u wanted to keep the big number element mods,
• not using more than one or not using using Crit Damage mod at all because u need to fit old Condition Overload and more elements in it for CO multiplier,
• requiring mroe consideration to pick between primed fury or berserker because some melee are too slow to build up in the beginning even with huge starting crit chance and using both means sacrificing more weapon slot.

But on the other hand pure crit was the good old stuff that can work just with some extra bit of status chance, while pure status build with old Condition Overload meant an entirely viable status build even without crit-hybrid.

Where did the DE that used to envision players using different builds and equipment choice go? Why is the only high end viable build these days are Hybrid build despite the so called balancing happening many times over the course of time? Why is pure crit and pure status build gets more narrower choice or just falls out of question in terms of power comparison against Hybrid build these days? 
 

[CircusOwner]

6 часов назад, Zilotz сказал:

Ad as a buff you offer us Arcanes and Mods that work on kill/headshot kill so will be useless for high level content as we cannot kill those mobs with guns anyway.

For most weapons - yes, but for those meta guns, like bramma and bubonico... No, DE, please, i dont want to play bramma anymore, i want to (be happy) use some throwable, can i use kunai? Wait, but kunai have 8% cr chance and 8% status chance...  i can kill a SP mob with them to trigger new powerfull mods and awesome arcanes, right DE? Right DE?

[YouWouldntGetlt]

it doesn't change much for melee players but atlest I can see we will have new meta for primary and secondaries which makes my happy since I am Mesa player so I have to say thank you DE for this buff and arcanes for pistols etc. I hope so it will also on peacemakers and others gun used by warframe.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

il y a 17 minutes, Xsoskeleton a dit :

Why is CO keep getting nerfed over and over? Why make this mod same stat to pressure point to begin with? I really fail to see the reasoning behind this.

Sadly because it became a no brainer mods when you used the proper tools to set status.

Cedo alt fire proc 7 status at once, in a bouncing AoE, kuva nukor proc at least 3 status, etc.

It was fun because it made all melee weapons strong in steel path, but the discrepancy between guns and melee was a bit too high.

[YouWouldntGetlt]

question DE: can regulators (mesa ) trigger new arcanes.

[GSilverSky]

First of all I want to say, that I like that you are trying to adress certain issues warframe currently has. 

However I would like to add a bit of hopefully constructive feedback. 

First I do think that moving all those effecs from arcanes and mods to ON KILL effects is a poor choice. AOE weapons like the Bramma will profit the most but shouldn't because they're strong enough. Also in endurance runs guns will still be useless, because you can't efficiently kill enemies without the buffs and therefore not keep the buffs up. So everybofy will use melee or warframe abilities again. 

I would love to see these effects being triggered by consecutive crits or status effects, maybe for individual status effects. Something that can be stacked up against very high level armored targets and is more practical to stack up on single target weapons than on the AOs which are already in a good spot. 

Furthermore I'd like to give some feedback about the nerfed smeeta cat cheese. I again actually like this as it rewards a very restrictive playstyle. 

However by now you have taken every possible way of minmaxing steel essence away from us. This is just very frustrating as minmaxing every farm is basically the goal of the game. But in SP we just have to sit and wait for the accolytes. 

I would love to see some secondary objectives which either directly reward steel essence or force a accolyte spawn. This would really motivate us to play missions more actively and give us an oportunity to maximize steel essence income. 

Other issues like looking the key to play steelpath with guns behind steelpath, have been adressed by others enough. 

I love your game DE and want it to thrive so i hope you maybe give the criticism a look and maybe tweak the changes a little. 

 

Sincerely, a Tenno

[IMperilbuster]

Why cant you guys just, leave melee alone,  and implement only those primary/secondary arcanes/galvanized mods instead. You guys are literally making the arsenal divided again,  except the other way around now. Probably so divided to the point where explosive weapons is now meta, no reason to bring your traditional guns and whatnot.

This is what this patch is telling me:

Guns > swords

Not this:

Guns = swords