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Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide


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1st Arcane Merciless should be on hit effect cuz from on kill effect is only beneficial with heavy hitters and launchers, on hit effect could help lower weapons properly scale up on its own a bit.

2nd Arcane Deadhead seems ok but increase of 120% per kill(3x) for 24 sec is to much I would say, not that heavy hitting weps don't need it but maybe rescale to 60% per kill (6x) for 16 sec would be fair.

3rd Arcane Dexterity here it is straightforward 60% dmg increase on melee kill(6x) for 20sec but what it is about? Here on web there are no passives meanwhile in video there's combo count window increase of 7.5 sec and why, this wouldn't help to guns like to melee as stat stick. Maybe passive like punch through of 1.5m with fire rate of 25% and bonus ability for gun to stack combo counter for melee or something like this to mainly help guns with utilization of some melee stat. Why? Because it would properly promote gun&sword play where guns would be dependent on melee kills where melee would be dependent on guns to keep up its combo count. That's why I would say Arcane Primary Charger and Arcane Blade Charger fails imo, cuz none of these complement each other but compete with each other.

@[DE]Rebecca

Edited by Tenebriar
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Hey I have an idea on a way to fix the dissonance between guns and melee weapons and it doesn't involve mods. What if there was a way to make built in shattering impact for all primaries and secondaries? If you think about it even bullet proof armor is chipped away by bullets. While melees would still have the mod, primaries and secondaries would have that built into impact damage buffing impact damage as well. One of my buddies also had the idea of making puncture damage (Of course for primaries and secondaries) do more damage to armored targets increasingly depending on how many puncture procs are on that enemy. @[DE]Rebecca

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1 минуту назад, AJAL8000 сказал:

Kuva Nukor will be still better than the Gaze xd

Gaze was extremely powerful already. Never managed to pimp my Nukor to the same level. Well, to each their own. I'll take the buff )

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4 hours ago, Mediloric said:

But there is nothing to pay? Sure I suppose you could buy them off other players if that is what you mean by p2w then it's a whole other thing, but unless I'm wrong, you have to grind it out to get the mods and arcanes you want? Doesn't sound p2w?

 

You can buy platinum to buy a riven that’ll have the stats on it that’ll counter the melee nerfs of Berserker and Blood Rush.

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2 hours ago, GREF_TM said:

Regulators shouldn't get these mods, just as exalted blade and desert wind don't get blood rush and weeping, and arcane slot on secondary certainly shouldn't work on them too. Mesa is already busted and makes most frames in the game look weak af, she doesn't need any buffs.

I would rather see Regulators on Mesa get toned down and be able to use these mods. It would be nice to have some consistency. Same thing for other exalted weapons. We really need to ditch what lead to ones that need to use stat sticks.

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39 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

You can buy platinum to buy a riven that’ll have the stats on it that’ll counter the melee nerfs of Berserker and Blood Rush.

That really depends on the weapon. Nikana Prime? Good luck. A good riven mod is only going to give you +120% crit chance. That won't make up for the loss from the nerf to Blood Rush. With SS, you can get to 60% red crits IIRC. The change to BR is going to hammer a lot of the crit weapons in the 25% to 35% crit range that lack a good riven disposition to save them. Less choice. Yay!

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Also isn't removing quick melee makes players to stick with melee weapon? Not to mention for combo counter, to make it worse. Removing quick melee means you have to fully grab your melee weapon, not simply swing once and back to the gunplay automatically. Also charging combo counter requires you to fully grab your melee weapon and keep using it without touch any other weapon, save for secondaries when you wield it with your glaive.

I think that combo counter needs to be removed for good, and give the correspond reward for the melee weapons. What it does is nothing but stop players to use the other weapon.

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3 hours ago, GREF_TM said:

Regulators shouldn't get these mods, just as exalted blade and desert wind don't get blood rush and weeping, and arcane slot on secondary certainly shouldn't work on them too. Mesa is already busted and makes most frames in the game look weak af, she doesn't need any buffs.

But how does Mesa perform on the Steel Path?

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15 minutes ago, DroopingPuppy said:

I think that combo counter needs to be removed for good, and give the correspond reward for the melee weapons. What it does is nothing but stop players to use the other weapon.

I disagree, I think they should capitalise on it. Sniper rifles have a multiplier after so many hits, essentially a combo counter. Why not apply this to all guns? The slower the fire rate the more combo it produces and vice versa to balance out slow and fast fire rate. Then just have an increased combo duration so you can switch freely without losing your combo.

Removing the combo counter entirely would cause more problems at this point, and if the idea is to buff guns why not utilise a system they already kind of have in place instead of this illogical workshop that will only encourage a smaller meta?

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13 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

But how does Mesa perform on the Steel Path?

She is okay. Her CC is actually very very good there. Good enough that you want to take it on other frames that you intend to use to solo SP. Her defense with Adaptation makes her damage resistant. Her Regulators like all crit weapons with a prime crit build start to show signs of falling off with even the first part of SP (level 105). There are just better ways to kill things than with Regulators.

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3 минуты назад, (PSN)RWalls91 сказал:

Sniper rifles have a multiplier after so many hits, essentially a combo counter. Why not apply this to all guns? The slower the fire rate the more combo it produces and vice versa to balance out slow and fast fire rate.

It's increased with every hit and decreased with every missed shot... Now, look at average accuracy after a mission. Especially for AoE-oriented like Kuva Ogris (since you don't need to actually hit the enemy with a grenade). Adding such a combo to all guns wouldn't make any difference for most cases.

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I don't know why it doesent sit with me too well, but I gotta point it out....

 

I've never used arcanes or rivens ever in any actual fashion in the years I've played warframe...pretty sure the arcanes I have are rank 0 cause I've never farmed for them ever...

So being that I can do steel path without arcanes and rivens...why is that the bandaid guns need to be on base with melee? Cause essentially it will do nothing for a player like me that still wants balance between guns and melee...the new mods will need some testing but from the looks of it...not sure if they will make that much of a dent though

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15 minutes ago, deucich said:

It's increased with every hit and decreased with every missed shot... Now, look at average accuracy after a mission. Especially for AoE-oriented like Kuva Ogris (since you don't need to actually hit the enemy with a grenade). Adding such a combo to all guns wouldn't make any difference for most cases.

I don't really pay attention to the sniper combo I just know it exists, so I wasn't aware of the missed shot thing. That being said they don't have to copy it exactly like sniper rifles, where shots missing would detract from the counter, and as for aoe/launcher style weapons they could lower the amount given to the counter per target hit as to not make it ridiculous. They could still apply some kind of counter, with bonus increase on headshots or something?

My point is they could do simpler things than this workshop

Edited by (PSN)RWalls91
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vor 30 Minuten schrieb ZenHare:

That really depends on the weapon. Nikana Prime? Good luck. A good riven mod is only going to give you +120% crit chance. That won't make up for the loss from the nerf to Blood Rush. With SS, you can get to 60% red crits IIRC. The change to BR is going to hammer a lot of the crit weapons in the 25% to 35% crit range that lack a good riven disposition to save them. Less choice. Yay!

You remember wrong. 60% red crits means your weapon achieves  a 260% crit. chance.  Sacrificial Steel alone never achieves that, because in that case the weapon must have a base crit. Chance of 48%. 

With 60%BR every weapon above 26% base crit. Chance could achieve red crits.

The smeeta kavat crit buff was always a debuff for cc>26%-weapons

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41 minutes ago, (PSN)RWalls91 said:

I disagree, I think they should capitalise on it. Sniper rifles have a multiplier after so many hits, essentially a combo counter. Why not apply this to all guns? The slower the fire rate the more combo it produces and vice versa to balance out slow and fast fire rate. Then just have an increased combo duration so you can switch freely without losing your combo.

Removing the combo counter entirely would cause more problems at this point, and if the idea is to buff guns why not utilise a system they already kind of have in place instead of this illogical workshop that will only encourage a smaller meta?

I know that Sniper Rifle has its own combo counter and it is toxic as combo counter as well. Why it has to be exists? Just why? It requires us to stick with only one weapon to gain the bonus, but we have up to three weapons. Why the mechanism that prevent to use other two must exists?

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I read the workshop and here's some thoughts I had:

First, the nerfs on melee mods aren't too big. I like this because they are an important part on why Warframe is fun to play. Also, gun arcanes are a cool idea. They give weapons some scaling for higher level content. My problem is that having to unlock the slots feels weirdly inconsistent with the rest of the game. Kitguns, Zaws and Warframes have slots unlocked already, why should guns be different?

The galvanized mods also feel odd. They're supposed to help with high level content, yet they're locked behind said content, which we now have to do with weaker weapons. I would suggest fusing them with the normal versions of the mods, so people trying to get the arcanes have a fighting chance. True, it may be extreme to have that kind of power from the beginning of the game but  we already do have it with melee, even if it was nerfed. There's no "Galvanized Condition Overload" right? Because there is no need for it. There never will be until I do a 48 hour Steel Path survival. But other gun mods already struggle past 10 minutes of that survival! Fusing Galvanized mods and their counterparts would rid you of this issue. Because they're powerful but not too much, so the scaling provided by the arcanes would be noticeable, when we're fighting to get them. 

And I'm glad the glaives now make it so I don't accidentally throw them if my finger gets distracted.

That's all. Thanks!

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19 minutes ago, DroopingPuppy said:

I know that Sniper Rifle has its own combo counter and it is toxic as combo counter as well. Why it has to be exists? Just why? It requires us to stick with only one weapon to gain the bonus, but we have up to three weapons. Why the mechanism that prevent to use other two must exists?

I don't understand how it's toxic, although I agree it encourages you to use one weapon. That being said combo builds fast which mitigates that issue. I think a solution here would be making it beneficial to swap weapons, say gain x bonus combo to melee after x combo on gun. You could build combo on melee to use a more powerful gun shot, or build combo with gun for a more powerful heavy attack. I'm only spitballing basic ideas but my point is they could apply what works for melee to guns, and that would help their initial claim they wanted to bring guns upto the power of melee.

I'm all for them encouraging us to use more than just melee, give us options. But you don't give options by nerfing and trying to force us to rely on guns. If they could work a way to interlace the mechanics, even if they only added a damage multiplier to guns based off the combo counter that would help. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying there's so much more they could do other than what they've provided.

Edited by (PSN)RWalls91
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59 minutes ago, ZenHare said:

She is okay. Her CC is actually very very good there. Good enough that you want to take it on other frames that you intend to use to solo SP. Her defense with Adaptation makes her damage resistant. Her Regulators like all crit weapons with a prime crit build start to show signs of falling off with even the first part of SP (level 105). There are just better ways to kill things than with Regulators.

So maybe it would actually be fine to let the new stuff work on Mesa since all of these primary and secondary mods and arcanes are intended to make the primary and secondaries viable on Steel Path.  For that matter, maybe it's time to revisit how the exalted weapons work with Blood Rush and other similar mechanics because (as the data shows) they all suck on Steel Path for the most part.

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5 minutes ago, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

You remember wrong. 60% red crits means your weapon achieves  a 260% crit. chance.  Sacrificial Steel alone never achieves that, because in that case the weapon must have a base crit. Chance of 48%. 

With 60%BR every weapon above 26% base crit. Chance could achieve red crits.

The smeeta kavat crit buff was always a debuff for cc>26%-weapons

The comment was in response to some saying to use a riven to avoid the nerf to BR. My post was pointing out that low disposition weapons won't get a lot of crit from a riven and that they would need to use SS instead or just forgo getting a lot of red crits. The nerf to BR is the same value as SS provides which is around 61% for a Nikana Prime. So, if you barely drop below the red crit threshold, then you can expect around 60% red crits with SS or around 30% for a riven, Some weapons are lucky and can get rivens that provide more. Essentially all crit builds are losing a mod slot. 

I thought the bottom limit was 27% base crit chance got you a 5% chance of a red crit. 26% was 0% and technically it's a 98% chance to get a orange crit.  

 

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All right, finally caught up reading the whole thread since I posted... (I hope this gets read and considered notes taken to the Dev Team)

Had another idea come to me about the whole "On Kill" debacle.

First, in all cases, it really needs to be a "Chance on Hit", with its chance determined by the mod, not tied to Crit Chance or Status Chance, it's own "on hit chance" must exist.

"On Kill" is too problematic for a number of reasons stated in this thread quite well, the biggest 2 being:

1) that we've seen how this is a problem for Nidus, and people killing his targets that he needed for stacks, but this now extends to all mod users competing for kills within their tiny window of "kill before x, or lose effect" conditions. Players will be competing for kills to keep their buffs up

2) Any time you come up against enemies who don't have minions to kill every 10-20sec, your weapons' nerfed base mod buffs (without the status proc'ing to build their real strength), will be your default condition. (and don't take this to mean I want hordes of minions to be constantly spawning with bosses, just to give me fodder to kill to keep buffs up... that would be sooo annoying.

Second: To decouple the chance on hit from Attack Speed buffs (getting tons more hits in with a fast weapon, less hits with slow weapons), there should be an internal "cannot proc more than once per .5 seconds," or whatever balance needs to be... but it ALSO needs a built-in safeguard for slower weapons, perhaps increasing the "chance on hit" by increments determined by the weapon's attack speed, up to 50% chance on next hit... this would also apply to the faster weapons, if you haven't hit anything with them during a lull in enemy population, so the first enemy you hit will proc the effect for the next horde of enemies coming your way.)

And, these effects need to last MUCH longer than 10-20sec... more like 30-60sec... this goes for both melee and guns. Small windows of buff duration only work for modes with constant streams of enemies, like Survival. Any time there's a lull between waves of Defense, or rooms devoid of enemies in Extermination, these buffs as announced, will disappear very quickly, and not carry on to the next wave of enemies, starting the whole build-up-your-strength cycle over again.

(as a melee player who doesn't use Naramon, preferring Vazarin for defense target healing/protection, I practically never see my combo counter over 3x in any mission, except Survival, and even then, there can be a draught of enemies, and I'm back at wet noodle status for a good long while. On Kill conditions will exasperate this situation for the new gun mods, and melee mod changes, as announced.)

 

Edited by (PSN)AyinDygra
forgot 3rd reason while typing, and don't want to wait for brain to remember it or go back and read the thread for it.
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3 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

First, in all cases, it really needs to be a "Chance on Hit", with its chance determined by the mod, not tied to Crit Chance or Status Chance

Chance on hit is rather than kill is great, but it punishes lower fire rate weapons. It needs to somehow scale with fire rate I think for fairness.

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12 hours ago, Frendh said:

If it is too hot in the kitchen, get out of the kitchen. Don't spoil the fun for others.

In this specific case the reason it is too hot in the kitchen is because it is LITERALLY ON FIRE and threatening to consume the entire restaurant.

Scared On Fire GIF by SpongeBob SquarePants

Seriously, chasing the e-peen levels can and will cause lasting damage to Warframe, as the bar moves up, it artificially drags the ground floor up with it to the point where nothing can be balanced for anyone and no content can or will satisfy anyone

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