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Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide


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12 hours ago, Frendh said:

If it is too hot in the kitchen, get out of the kitchen. Don't spoil the fun for others.

In this specific case the reason it is too hot in the kitchen is because it is LITERALLY ON FIRE and threatening to consume the entire restaurant.

Scared On Fire GIF by SpongeBob SquarePants

Seriously, chasing the e-peen levels can and will cause lasting damage to Warframe, as the bar moves up, it artificially drags the ground floor up with it to the point where nothing can be balanced for anyone and no content can or will satisfy anyone

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1 minute ago, (PSN)RWalls91 said:

Chance on hit is rather than kill is great, but it punishes lower fire rate weapons. It needs to somehow scale with fire rate I think for fairness.

Yeah, I kinda thought that too... so I did... in the next paragraph in my post :)

 

10 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Second: To decouple the chance on hit from Attack Speed buffs (getting tons more hits in with a fast weapon, less hits with slow weapons), there should be an internal "cannot proc more than once per .5 seconds," or whatever balance needs to be... but it ALSO needs a built-in safeguard for slower weapons, perhaps increasing the "chance on hit" by increments determined by the weapon's attack speed, up to 50% chance on next hit... this would also apply to the faster weapons, if you haven't hit anything with them during a lull in enemy population, so the first enemy you hit will proc the effect for the next horde of enemies coming your way.)

 

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6 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Yeah, I kinda thought that too... so I did... in the next paragraph in my post :)

 

 

Whoops. Should have read more. My goof!

 

8 minutes ago, Aldain said:

In this specific case the reason it is too hot in the kitchen is because it is LITERALLY ON FIRE and threatening to consume the entire restaurant.

This made me laugh more than it should, especially when it's 100% truth

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I am a casual Warframe player. I recently got my wife in to it as well.

I won't be going in to super long, detailed explanation in to why this whole thing is a bad idea. There are more educated, experienced veteran and hard core players, that can do a better job than me. However, here are my two cents or pieces of copper.

 

- We don't want you to use melee. So we will nerf melee and buff ranged weapons. Also, we don't  want you to kill things super fast, never mind that thew game has always been about clearing the room and mission the fastest possible way. I mean even your ninja movement is about that. So we will make you use ranged weapons. But don't kill it, get to a low HP, then RUN up to a dude and use your special MELEE kill with the Assassin's Creed blade weapon.

To me this is logical. Use a ranged weapon to run up to you tarred to use a melee weapon. If you want us to make a more tactical decision about our arsenal, you have to introduce a game mode or a mission where that would matter.

Even if you make ranged OP, we only have 2 states in warframe. Enemy either has 100% HP or it has 0%

Oh, and got to go fast! that's another one.

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20 minutes ago, Aldain said:

In this specific case the reason it is too hot in the kitchen is because it is LITERALLY ON FIRE and threatening to consume the entire restaurant.

Scared On Fire GIF by SpongeBob SquarePants

Seriously, chasing the e-peen levels can and will cause lasting damage to Warframe, as the bar moves up, it artificially drags the ground floor up with it to the point where nothing can be balanced for anyone and no content can or will satisfy anyone

I mean levels 1-20 can be demolished with empty or incomplete builds.

So it makes far more sense to balance mods and such for high levels where their effects actually matter.

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I think the changes to Blood Rush and Condition Overload are good for the long-term balance of the game.

The Berserker change however is a bit odd. I thought the whole point of nerfing it was because it allowed “animation-breaking” levels of attack speed. So you changed it from 75% to 70%? Is that really going to make a difference? Sure it’ll be more difficult to trigger with the new condition and duration, but at lower levels it will have 100% uptime anyway.

I really don’t think Berserker was the problem. If there is a problem at all, it comes from stacking multiple attack speed buffs. You changed Berserker, but Fury, Primed Fury, Gladiator Vice, Quickening, Arcane Strike, Warcry, Haste Mote, and others all still exist unchanged. If too much melee speed is what you want to fix, this change to berserker will absolutely not do anything about it, and will only make that mod feel more inconsistent at higher levels.

Wouldn’t it be much smarter to just apply a universal attack speed cap? Something like +90%?

Edited by (PSN)sister-hawk
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15 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I mean levels 1-20 can be demolished with empty or incomplete builds.

So it makes far more sense to balance mods and such for high levels where their effects actually matter.

Personally I'd rather see the level scope not go from "literal joke" to "nuke or be nuked" with little-to-no in between.

People are always talking about the veteran players having nothing to do, but the Mid-core players don't have anything to do either...possibly less because low levels are snooze fests and high levels are a mess where the game stops looking like Warframe and more winds up looking like Dynasty Warriors.

There's no parity between anything in Warframe, and this Workshop is only going to amplify that further.

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Old Steel Path meta: High-critical or hybrid melee with a high enough base attack speed to max out with Berserker.

New Steel Path meta: High-critical melee with a blender-ready base attack speed. With Arcane Strike and maybe a Gladiator set. Hybrid go home. Average attack speed go home.

On the regular starmap, let's face it, just about anything works. But on the qualify of life side, some of the slower melee weapons are juuust usable with the existing version of Berserker. And might have stayed that way with the nerfed version alongside Primed Fury, since it doesn't take too long to get a kill and start the engine. But that's out since it's becoming Berserker Fury.

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couple problems. 1) why arent galvanized mods just called amalgum mods? why werent almalgum mods just called corupted mods if they gave a neg? i feel there is a tad bit of rebranding, rather then combining form and function to create beauty. 2) the problem with "on kill" mods i dont use, is when your in a classic survival and you get mid-end game your buffs run out making the player generally worste then they were at the begining. why didnt they rework primaries to add a "combo counter" to primaries where the combo increases on hit and have the mods scale similarly? that way it would be universally similar to melee. you also would have saved time by not needing to nerf melee and only had given the buff to primaries and melees. for melees the combo increases based on consecutive hits. for primaries make it based on consecutive hits. then add a crit mod like blood rush, but for primaries. keep melee people happy, keep shoooting people happy and then no one would have to rework every melee build in their arsenal.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb ZenHare:

The comment was in response to some saying to use a riven to avoid the nerf to BR. My post was pointing out that low disposition weapons won't get a lot of crit from a riven and that they would need to use SS instead or just forgo getting a lot of red crits. The nerf to BR is the same value as SS provides which is around 61% for a Nikana Prime. So, if you barely drop below the red crit threshold, then you can expect around 60% red crits with SS or around 30% for a riven, Some weapons are lucky and can get rivens that provide more. Essentially all crit builds are losing a mod slot. 

I thought the bottom limit was 27% base crit chance got you a 5% chance of a red crit. 26% was 0% and technically it's a 98% chance to get a orange crit.  

 

No you are right bottom is 27% exactly what i have written. But with the Berserker nerf gladiator vice is now a good alternative. Yeah melee was nerfed but melee modding has become far more interesting 

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Will Galvanized Mods be available any place BUT Arbitrations? Trading at least?

Not gonna play a game mode i personally do not like in the slightest, to perform better in a game-mode i do like.

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Well this is on like page 60 so I don't expect many people to see, that aside, here's my thoughts!
I went through and did a massive comprehensive response post to this dev workshop, covered plenty of issues and topics and rebalanced nearly every single weapon mod and arcane in it, would appreciate any and all feedback! If some devs have the time to read through it I'd be overjoyed to hear what they think.

 

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So here are my thoughts on Berserker and the Glaive changes

Berserker

De-coupling the buff from Crits makes a ton of sense as it doesn’t work as well on weapons without good base crit chance. Not sure “on Kill” is the right way to go though as it potentially makes scale up trivial at low levels or very difficult at high levels of play (or impossible in certain boss fights).

I’m not sure how feasible this is but a “on completion of a melee stance combo” trigger might work well as that provides a more consistent scale up time that doesn’t vary with mission difficulty (also draws attention to the melee stance combos). If this is trigger is possible and of interest to the Devs it could be interesting to pair it with a medium duration that refreshes on a kill by any source (gives a sense of momentum but also doesn’t force the player to use their melee weapon for it).

Making it not stack with the Fury mods seems fine. Depending on the exact trigger mechanic and duration the Attack speed values could go higher (or have more, but smaller increments) but that depends on the added difficulty/complexity of use relative to Primed Fury.

Alternatively maybe Berserker stacking with Fury just highlights a problem that is larger than itself. If the true issue is that attack speed is so dominant then what happens when players start to more actively seek out abilities that boost attack speed? The helminth system allows for that so the issue wouldn’t really be resolved (looking at Warcry specifically).

Maybe what is needed is a weapon type specific max attack speed. That provides an upper bound for attack speed that can be balanced around, creates interesting choices for the player, AND allows the animation team to have a set max speed for attack animations if they want to ensure they look good at all levels of attack speed. This would encourage players who want to have a very high attack speed to decide how they get to that max value between their mods, arcanes, and abilities. It also creates interesting dynamics where a team can adjust their builds to free up mod space if someone is going to be providing a buff.

 

Glaives

Personally I really like the catch and release style of fighting, but I can see how accidentally throwing the glaives would be frustrating. A stance mod for glaives that has a faster throw time (and presumably less powerful non-throw attacks) might be a nice way for folks who like that style to keep it while removing the frustration for those that don’t.

Actually delineating the damage between partial charge and full charge makes a ton of sense. I was genuinely kinda confused as to why they were nearly identical and couldn’t really tell mid fight which one I was using.

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hace 9 horas, (PSN)Svenx13 dijo:

Arcanes & galvanized Mods

In my opinion the arcanes & mods feels like an elaborate p2w.

I mean DE has created a discrepancy between guns and melee through flaws in the melee system and now they want us to be happy about a "intellilink centurion package"(south park). 

If we want to improve the guns we are now forced to buy arcane unlockers for SE ( and later we are allowed to generously pay platinum for it) or invest more formas in our guns, tempting the players to buy them.

Fun fact: we already have arcanes to buff our guns like momentum, velocity, rage, etc. Why can we not use them in our weapons instead of our warframes.

 

 

 

 

I sincerely disagree with these new mods, because again there is another variety of Cannon Diffusion, they could have buffed the amalgam version of this one and Sierra so that they are superior to their normal counterparts and, with these, that they incorporate 200% multishot and that during missions, they activate a buff during combat when performing this or that action. It is unfair that they sacrifice base multi-shot so that it is added during the missions that you carry out. Even better would have been that during the review of the entire arsenal they increased the base damage of all weapons, including enemies so that there is balance and the challenge is noticed. Also, why not allow some of the arcana related to weapon actions (reloading, killing, aiming, headshot, etc) to be equipped in the primaries and secondaries? Like Arcane Primary Charger, Arcane Awakening, Arcane Precision, Arcane Wrath. There is no need to create new ones. Not to mention the aura mods that increase pistol, rifle and shotgun damage, those could also be equipped on weapons depending on the type.

In short, I say that:

-Diffusion Amalgam Cannon and Amalgam Sierra should be superior to their counterparts (exceeding 110% multi-shot and 165% damage respectively) and eliminate the Galvanized version of the first.

-Multi-Shot Galvanized Mods should have 200% base plus a random activatable bonus during combat. 

-Damage arcana should be placed on weapons and damage increase aura mode depending on the type.

-Stop nerfing, they cause unnecessary imbalances.

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13 hours ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

Sadly because it became a no brainer mods when you used the proper tools to set status.

Cedo alt fire proc 7 status at once, in a bouncing AoE, kuva nukor proc at least 3 status, etc.

It was fun because it made all melee weapons strong in steel path, but the discrepancy between guns and melee was a bit too high.

You clearly missed the entire point being pure status alone would still be viable with old CO and not a second pressure point that is cowering in fear because DE deemed it too powerful and completely went over the fact pure status build are now not as viable as it was.

Might as well rename it to Condition Average-load

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2 hours ago, Aldain said:

Personally I'd rather see the level scope not go from "literal joke" to "nuke or be nuked" with little-to-no in between.

People are always talking about the veteran players having nothing to do, but the Mid-core players don't have anything to do either...possibly less because low levels are snooze fests and high levels are a mess where the game stops looking like Warframe and more winds up looking like Dynasty Warriors.

There's no parity between anything in Warframe, and this Workshop is only going to amplify that further.

Pretty sure mid-core players whole goal is to farm through all the available content and get all the stuff needed to approach high level.

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I’m not thrilled that the farm for the new arcanes and the new mods has been split into two completely different missions. Before you could just run SP missions and make progress on both arcanes and galvanized mods. Now players will have to farm both mission types. This is particularly less desirable when arbitrations are limited to one mission per hour. This may not be a big deal for people who regularly play with friends but arbitrations are a complete crap shoot with random teams (public or recruited) due to the joy of host migrations. Not to mention that now you are forcing players to play a mission that disables warframe powers to farm mods to make guns worth using. Again not a fan of this game design philosophy. 

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-In terms of attack speed and attack animations....  I had this idea awhile back and posted about it...   But essentially give melee weapons multishot stat and drop their speed ALOT.  You could swipe your melee once but do 2-3+ hits at once.  There could be mods for speed still but there could also be mods for multishot.   (watching the dev wrokshop video your only taking 5% off berzerk??  That seems so little a change I dont even know why your making it.  I also dont understand the problem with insane speed,  if you reach 2.00+ speeds your sacrificing in other areas)

-This is more of a question/suggestion...  I am dumb in this area and have never researched it but i think its called IPS??   There is a priority to which status types get applied to enemies???   If you wanna improve guns and or at the same time help melee a little bit I suggest this needs reworked a littlebit.   The amount of damage should dictate the priority of status effects.  If we mod for viral and it does 1k damage why should impact that only has 50 damage be triggering status effects ????  

I was in steel path the other night beating on stuff with war and the only status effect I saw on everything was impact lol.   I might as well have been using a pipe or baseball bat.  But this is especially annoying as heck with guns.   If you fixed the priority system so the elements we choose are the primary status effects guns would totally benefit.  

-----------------

Status changes seem to have worked very well.  (except for what enemies do to players.  Massive stacks in short duration)   I think some status effects need bumped up to be more competitive.   Excluding Viral/slash/tox/corrosion, Other effects could have bigger effect areas.   Like if u inflict electric status on one guy it should chain to other nearby enemies.  Or Frost should create small aoe clouds.   Combo elements are great but with the last update and kuva weapons and good mods,  You can have your combo element and an extra element.   Or you can build towards like exclusively electric even tho its not as effective.   

Not all single type status effects are the same is all im saying. 

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10 minutes ago, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

-In terms of attack speed and attack animations....  I had this idea awhile back and posted about it...   But essentially give melee weapons multishot stat and drop their speed ALOT.  You could swipe your melee once but do 2-3+ hits at once.  There could be mods for speed still but there could also be mods for multishot.   (watching the dev wrokshop video your only taking 5% off berzerk??  That seems so little a change I dont even know why your making it.  I also dont understand the problem with insane speed,  if you reach 2.00+ speeds your sacrificing in other areas)

-This is more of a question/suggestion...  I am dumb in this area and have never researched it but i think its called IPS??   There is a priority to which status types get applied to enemies???   If you wanna improve guns and or at the same time help melee a little bit I suggest this needs reworked a littlebit.   The amount of damage should dictate the priority of status effects.  If we mod for viral and it does 1k damage why should impact that only has 50 damage be triggering status effects ????  

I was in steel path the other night beating on stuff with war and the only status effect I saw on everything was impact lol.   I might as well have been using a pipe or baseball bat.  But this is especially annoying as heck with guns.   If you fixed the priority system so the elements we choose are the primary status effects guns would totally benefit.  

-----------------

Status changes seem to have worked very well.  (except for what enemies do to players.  Massive stacks in short duration)   I think some status effects need bumped up to be more competitive.   Excluding Viral/slash/tox/corrosion, Other effects could have bigger effect areas.   Like if u inflict electric status on one guy it should chain to other nearby enemies.  Or Frost should create small aoe clouds.   Combo elements are great but with the last update and kuva weapons and good mods,  You can have your combo element and an extra element.   Or you can build towards like exclusively electric even tho its not as effective.   

Not all single type status effects are the same is all im saying. 

why put multishot when we have stances that swing multiple times? IE: Crimson dervish

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46 minutes ago, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

-In terms of attack speed and attack animations....  I had this idea awhile back and posted about it...   But essentially give melee weapons multishot stat and drop their speed ALOT.  You could swipe your melee once but do 2-3+ hits at once.  There could be mods for speed still but there could also be mods for multishot.   (watching the dev wrokshop video your only taking 5% off berzerk??  That seems so little a change I dont even know why your making it.  I also dont understand the problem with insane speed,  if you reach 2.00+ speeds your sacrificing in other areas)

You are missing the "on kill" part. If something else kills the mob before you do, then you don't get credit and the counter can reset. So instead of a 5% loss, it is 75% loss. Will this be a problem on solo SP farms? No. Could this this be a problem on team missions with teammates with AOE weapons and sparser spawns. Possibly. It's enough of an issue to make people voice their concern or just switch to other mods. It doesn't bother me much as I usually use Wisp with Fragor Prime and a whole lotta haste through Wisp's abilities and a riven. And she is just a blur of a whirlwind of carnage.

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On 2021-06-18 at 7:00 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Weapon Changes 

Please don't nerf Sancti Magistar again,
it's not even in the top ten list, maybe even not in the top 20.
I main it, not for damage, but for the utility of the healing pulse,
which you've nerfed, but still works fine.

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