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Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide


[DE]Rebecca

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This isn’t balance as much as this is taking away our primary way of advancing through the game. Has anyone at DE ever run a steel path MOT survival? These galvanized mods aren’t going to cut it as effectively as a blade would. I am hopping off warframe for a bit now. If I’m being completely honest, and I am, I could care less about the stance mod animations, as animations don’t kill or scare off enemies. There’s no survivability in it. Yes they look cool but they serve no practical purpose. You want your game to look cool and people to enjoy it? Then put an endgame in that isn’t based on how long one can survive in mot or damage numbers. Because that’s the only thing we all have in common. The  grind and need to kill effectively, so we can continue to do it over and over again. Listen to your player base like y’all used to. That video of Scott explaining how y’all embraced how the players were playing your game. Ironically it was based on melee attack speed. What happened DE? refocus on your goal with warframe. Fine tune it. Give us something other than a bunch of grind islands. Maybe then we will stop focusing on killing and start admiring stance animations more. Maybe. Stay dangerous, dreamers. Tenno Dragos, signing off

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i am just going to be the one to say it.

if you want to fix steel essence farm, the best way would be to just give it on kill to any player that is not AFK, as opposed to just letting it sit there and enable smeeta abuse.

non AFK players should also include dead players assuming they are not dead for more then 2-3 minutes.

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3 hours ago, (XBOX)Dragos7177 said:

These galvanized mods aren’t going to cut it as effectively as a blade would.

On guns that are already good and combined with arcanes, they will. Steel path spawns a lot of fodder enemies, and kiling fodder to get and maintain (mostly) buffs will not be a problem. 

 

Problem is not the buffs themselves, but the fact that melee, even nerfed, will continue to the same thing as guns with these buffs, but far cheaper (mod/forma costs) and without requiring you to do a metric crapton of tedious farms. A true testament to how bad this set of changes is as a solution to "guns vs melee" problem and how bad DE are at balancing their game in general - they went a full 180* from their initial "without neccesary directly nerfing melee, but rather buff guns to be comparable" statement to directly nerfing two of the most important (arguably) melee mods and the most powerful melee enabler, yet still couldn't make the buffs look good enough.

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To bring up "basic" guns to the top, I think we need 2 main upgrades to be able to perform well in steel path, in addition to all of this dev proposition:

  • Buff "punch through" mods. I think this is the best way to buff single targeted weapons without adding new mods or mechanic, especially in Steel Path where their are lot of enemies.
  • Make something to boost their mod capacity, or add more standard polarized slots. It's easier to choose to use formas on a kuva or melee weapon than primaries or secondaries beacause of how fast theese weapons will be maxed and powerfull. And this is the kind of choice players make that affect the meta. I fear that lvl 40 kuva weapons will be even more used if nothing changes.

Thank you.

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2 minutes ago, Tethip said:

To bring up "basic" guns to the top, I think we need 2 main upgrades to be able to perform well in steel path, in addition to all of this dev proposition:

  • Buff "punch through" mods. I think this is the best way to buff single targeted weapons without adding new mods or mechanic, especially in Steel Path where their are lot of enemies.
  • Make something to boost their mod capacity, or add more standard polarized slots. It's easier to choose to use formas on a kuva or melee weapon than primaries or secondaries beacause of how fast theese weapons will be maxed and powerfull. And this is the kind of choice players make that affect the meta. I fear that lvl 40 kuva weapons will be even more used if nothing changes.

Thank you.

A lot of older gun mods could use a cost reduction across the board, especially punch-through. Also, those +30% IPS mods will remained unchanged when the new update drops. Did you know that some of them were meta once upon a time?

flechette.jpg

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16 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

A lot of older gun mods could use a cost reduction across the board, especially punch-through. Also, those +30% IPS mods will remained unchanged when the new update drops. Did you know that some of them were meta once upon a time?

flechette.jpg

Worth slotting perhaps, but not terribly meta when you could just use any projectile-based weapon for 100% armour ignore because that's just how things worked back then.

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5 hours ago, GREF_TM said:

On guns that are already good and combined with arcanes, they will. Steel path spawns a lot of fodder enemies, and kiling fodder to get and maintain (mostly) buffs will not be a problem. 

 

Problem is not the buffs themselves, but the fact that melee, even nerfed, will continue to the same thing as guns with these buffs, but far cheaper (mod/forma costs) and without requiring you to do a metric crapton of tedious farms. A true testament to how bad this set of changes is as a solution to "guns vs melee" problem and how bad DE are at balancing their game in general - they went a full 180* from their initial "without neccesary directly nerfing melee, but rather buff guns to be comparable" statement to directly nerfing two of the most important (arguably) melee mods and the most powerful melee enabler, yet still couldn't make the buffs look good enough.

For example, I was just looking at my Kronen Prime build. One forma and a potato is all it took to make it a top meta weapon.

 

2 hours ago, Tethip said:

To bring up "basic" guns to the top, I think we need 2 main upgrades to be able to perform well in steel path, in addition to all of this dev proposition:

  • Buff "punch through" mods. I think this is the best way to buff single targeted weapons without adding new mods or mechanic, especially in Steel Path where their are lot of enemies.
  • Make something to boost their mod capacity, or add more standard polarized slots. It's easier to choose to use formas on a kuva or melee weapon than primaries or secondaries beacause of how fast theese weapons will be maxed and powerfull. And this is the kind of choice players make that affect the meta. I fear that lvl 40 kuva weapons will be even more used if nothing changes.

Thank you.

The first only helps on mass spawn missions like survival. Your primaries will feel useless on other missions.

The second would help a little. However if there was a mod out there that could boost damage on primaries by 500% to 1000%, then people would be slotting it already. You would only get another 20% boost from this.

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For the glaives i think a charge up time for heavy attacks of 1.0 instead of the proposed 1.2 would sit a lot better with the playerbase. For the damage decrease of quick attacks, i think it's understandable that there needed to be some adjustment though i again feel it should have been closer to approximately 65% and not approximately 50%.

Those are all my thoughts on the glaive so far i hope you take them into consideration from a player whose most used melee weapon has been the glaive prime for a long long time (back than with invisible Loki and power throw😉

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16 hours ago, Crossfire78 said:

What about them?

How did you do it without the g-mods?

that argument is invalid...

Everything but just stay with the exonomics.... how many endo does a new player who cleared the star chart usually have?

Enough to max all g-mods when there are lots of other more useful and necessary mods?

i pretty much doubt that.

Time i'd rather spent on a node of my choosing with a guaranteed drop chance of SE then "somewhere" in "some"" mission type i most likely don't like spending hours with nothing to show...

Firstly, I used OP melee weapons to run steel path, after 3 years of constant play I have pretty much every single thing/frame/weapon/mod in the game, all the endo, all the kuva all the MR. You name it I have it coming out of the wahzoo.

My builds were SP ready before SP was even a thing because that's how you play Warframe, you use the tools you have to squeeze as much performance out of this game as physically possible.

Secondly, Endo is one of the gating factors of the starting game, early on you simply do not have enough so you farm endo rich missions, go on Ayatan Statue hunts, run Maroo's weekly mission, Quests that give endo. 

Then, when you have enough endo you upgrade dot by dot.

As for your last point the answer is simple.

Don't grind for the "G-Mods". Look at my first answer, anyone who has spent any serious time in the game simply does not need them we already have enough. We've already completed SP before this update was even a consideration, and we don't need to grind it or Arbitration for G-Mods or Arcanes, because all we have to do is sell prime trash until we have enough plat to buy them on Warframe Market.

We don't have to bother with any of this unless we want to.

The choice is up to the player.

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Now that much of the initial yelling is over and DE has had plenty of time to clarify if they did not mean what they wrote, I want to say a few things.

I really want them to, pun intended, stick to their guns on CO and limit it to 3 stacks. Maybe 4, but lets leave that up for balancing later.

Now why would I want them to do such a thing:
* because the "must prime/stack status types" meta is frankly garbage that only fanatics or streamers bother with it. Not fit for public consumption, way too "tryhard" for a simple slashershooter. To make a RPG comparison, it's like stacking dots and debuffs, you'd only do that for raids/bossfights, not the plentiful regular enemies. And Eidolons aside and they live in opposite world: no status (no debuffs, no dots), we have neither in warframe.
* because high stacks CO is just ridiculously good (like high multiplier crits, just consistenly).
* because game devs (in general, not just DE) listen to stupid outdated design principles and "balance" around what the very top is capable of. "not at the top? sucks to be you"
* because when you are making the rifle/primary equivalent much weaker (2 stacks, 40% per) it is completely unacceptable to have CO remain free to scale.
* any arguments about "but rifles can brrrt a lot of status quickly" are just dishonest. Case in point: several melee stances, scaled further by speed mods - spraying a bunch of hits in a single swing and making those swings very fast. If your gun has BRRRT rate your clip is wasted very fast, have to reload and mod for more ammo pickup.
So I am fine with CO being 3-stack limited.

It just can't stand alone, because it is decimating the highend. We HAVE TO also talk about what to do about the ridiculous DR - and thus the armor system - and cheating level fake DR (aka dps-normalizing) and status immunities that has been thown in, because of things like a open ended CO has made the top tryhards and coordinated groups able to turn the toughest enemies into garden gnomes.
I'm deliberate leaving out the outright invulnerabilites right now, but they are not off the radar. And for that matter some punchthrough blockers, you are not forgotten.

Related to CO, the "CO-clones" for guns are terrible. Harsh, but fair.
Base comparison:
    40% per type, limited to 2 stacks, with a 80% bonus to status chances.
VS
    80% per type, limited to 3 types.
On melee, the alternatives is 90% (PP) or if you are lucky, 165% (PPP).
In that environment, CO still makes sense. Not at the lowest end, but it doesn't take much. Many "noobfit" and use both PP and CO, but that is usually due to lacking some thing good (like a Riven or Bloodrush).

For guns and rifles though... oh boy. You would never consider replacing Serration or Hornet Strike with that. And due to the low potential (80% at 2 types) and being additive with Serration/HS, it is simply grossly underperforming. Even more so for a 12/14 drain mod.
Anyone would be much better off just installing a regular +90% elemental mod, than this new "co for rifles". A plain elemental mod is already by itself better and it would get scaled with serration making it even better for a 11 drain cost. You could even "go cheap" and get 75% at 10 drain (damn capacity calculations) and still get more value, without the hassle. Getting that extra status chance is not really worth it.
Unfortunately, I think they made the mistake of thinking it would replace a 60/60 mod. 60% ele damage + 60% status. Then getting 80% general damage (on a "lit up" enemy)  and 80% status (to help light it up) sounds more interesting, but practically we are not going to fit the weapons like that.
So I definitely can not get behind the praise that some think it deserves.
Really left with a bad taste here, since for shotguns (Point blank tops at 90%) it about breaks even. Just getting insultingly badly treated when it comes to non-shotgun primaries. To the point where the "they don't play the game nor do they want to" seems to apply.
All that said, all 3 veriants of that galvanized mod are a joke compared to CO.

There is a lot to be said against the 'on kill' and 'on headshot kill'. Most has already been said.
They are at best SOLO/DUO mods, for people with "computer assisted" aim or who are over the top CounterStrike professionals.
If you are stuggling to kill fast enough, no joy for you.
... killing with headshot (not body, not status, not abilities...), no joy for you.
They will pan out badly for groups as well. Plenty of other "stealing" your kill. Just think about "lane rage" in LoL/Dota when people snipe last hit (and later blame you for having fallen behind).
If you are already doing well, or are ok with being carried, then things will be fine for you, the strong will get the kills meaning they have the buffs, further cementing their ability to grab the kills, rather than the others in the group who didn't. Making it a very unfun experience for anyone wanting to participate, like newbies can attest to in pugs when higher mr player come in and make the world explode and they can barely parkour enough to stay in affinity range.

To make that even somewhat tolerable, you would have to make them trigger from any kill of any kind, that is in affinity range, whether you tapped the target or not. Literally letting kills count towards the mod even if you made it with melee, necramech, operator or whatever.
Even so, it will do nothing for struggling solo players or struggling weapons. They direly need something not tied to kill rate, something which they can not achive.
If they need the fully upgraded mods full buffstack, with relevant full upgraded arcane, to keep it from falling off, it's a nonstarter.

As for glaives. Frankly I have not used them much, seemed underwhelming and unpleasant to use to say the least (like gunblades), so if someone would please enlighten me. Something about them must be over the top in super setups to get gutted like that. I honestly have no idea what, but it will certainly deter me from ever touching them without knowing what kind of sick power they supposedly have. So? What are they outperforming? What are the "secret" setups?

ps: I am not against there being some star level mods, but referring back to what things get "balanced" towards (e.g. lame DR, dps normalizing, status immunites. etc) the concept needs something to hold things a bit in check.
One idea may be to simple have some exclusivity. Not fitting CO if you fit Bloodrush. And perhaps look at a stack limit for bloodrush, instead of naively counting on players not reaching high combo. 12x60%=+720% critchance. Not fitting "god"-crit rivens with either of them. Sort of a "pick one of 3: CO, BR, crit-riven" theme.
I realize that may sound like revolutionary heresy and the instinct may be to hate on the messenger, but the situation is already complete broken, "we can't have nice things" because of it.

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Citation

Beserker Fury, cannot stack with Fury.
On Melee Kill:
+35% Attack Speed (Max 70%)  for 10s. Stacks up to 2x. 

It's a good idea in itself, but the duration is too short. Berserk will no longer be usable in espionage, sabotage missions, and also in disturbance (because we are looking above all for the demolyst, not the kill).
A longer duration would be better. The most consistent would be that Berserk adapts to the duration of the weapon in question. If my weapon has a combo duration of 12s for example, then Berserk would have a duration of 12s. This would be more consistent and allow everyone to build according to their own taste.

 

Citation

Condition Overload is changing from:
+120% Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target.

To

+80% Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target. 


 

I half agree. I predicted a nerf for 80% at Condition Overload. However, the status cap should be set at 5 statuses, not 3 status.
The first reason is that the majority of melee weapons already have 3 physical status that can proc; however, there would be no point in playing with a secondary or primary weapon to gain status, since the melee weapon alone is sufficient.

It would have been fairer to nerf the damage more (50% condition overload for example) but to be able to reach 5 status (i.e. a total damage of 250%) VS 3 status and 80% damage (i.e. a total of 240%).

Finally, the overall nerf (including condition overload  and blood rush) and in my opinion a little too violent. Here is a table that I have been working on since yesterday:

fTtYPAQ.png

It can be seen that the nerf will reduce bleeding damage (which currently covers the majority of melee weapon builds) at -61%, down to -66% (current values have been tested and verified in simulacre).

The best for condition overload is 80% damage but to cap it at 5 status, in order to obtain up to max 400% damage, that is to say a nerf of 40% to 46%.


 

Citation

Galvanized Mods

 

Our observation that Arsenal imbalance becomes obvious at higher level content means that we want your progression to this content to matter for your power level. We want to give you the tools to progress to optimal play with a new series of Mods: Galvanized Mods!


The different mods are interesting, however the melee has Weeping Wound (a conditional mod allowing melee to increase the status chance up to 440% for combo 12) and you do not offer any equivalent mod for primary and secondary weapons. Likewise, Galvanized mods increasing the critical chances with conditionnal "Headshot" are not interesting for a large part of the weapons (Ignis Wraith for example). We need mods like Blood Rush which allow with a simple condition (not on Headshot, but on kill for example) to increase the critical chances.

Otherwise, it would be time I think to add sacrificial mods for the main and secondary weapons (the melee is very advantageous thanks to the sacrificial mod).

Thank you for taking the time to read me, and for taking my review seriously.

cordially

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So, DE says "Our goal is to encourage you to use your entire Arsenal in-mission. Switching between Primary, Secondary, and Melee weapons".

But in fact current changes just enforce player to use only one type of weapon - otherwise he will lost buffs.

1) Primary does not buffed enough to be effective at high lvls

2) All tools viable on 1k+ lvl nerfed

3) 4s MERCILESS Arcanes Duration so small, that prevents player from engaging in close combat

Seems very stupid for me.

IMHO, good way to improve primary and secondary weapons -

1) share combo counter with them and add mods similar to CO, BR and WW.

2) Reduce ammo capacity for most of the guns, so you should shoot more carefully and wise. (Opticor Vandal has 600 ammo. Thats absolutely insane)

Maybe bind ammo capacity to the clip size - so you can have only 3 or 4 clips for any weapon.

3) ? Maybe buff base damage ?

This changes will encourage more diverse gameplay: Strike with you primary while closing distance to maintain combo counter and then attack with meele to finish enemies and save ammo. Just like true space ninja.

New Helmith abilities are ok.

INVIGORATIONS - plz, remove. Its awful.

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I think there are a lot of good things for primaries and secondaries here, and moving the Galvanized set to Arbitrations is a good move.  It makes them more accessible.  I think the nerf to the Merciless arcane duration is a bit aggressive, a lot of weapons are going to drop buffs on reload.  I thought 6s was already short to begin with.

It was nice to see the combo duration on Dexterity arcanes addressed, but I still have questions:

1. Is the combo duration on Dexterity arcanes melee combo or sniper combo?

2. Is the bonus damage on Galv. status mods 40% per stack to 2/3 stack, or is it 40% per status to 2/3 status types?  If the first, is it capped at any number of status effects on the target, like CO is now?

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8 hours ago, (PSN)II2j-ZII said:

Think about this for a moment, please.

There is no need to think about it... What she said makes plenty of sense. Guns do not have an issue in regular content. Making the new mods/arcanes available through regular content makes it easy to overpower them for said content. The difficult content will become easier when you get the mods but it is incredibly foolish to think that unlocking them this way is a problem. Steel Path is already clearable with/without primary/melee weapons. It isn't like they are locking this beyond content that you can't clear with half-competent setups.

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3 hours ago, (XBOX)Nightseid said:

We need auras or stances slots on guns. More mod capacity is the way to bring guns to gap the divide between guns and melee. galvanized mods could be those mods instead of being just a regular mod.

Absolutely not. We're getting arcane slots on primary and secondary weapons. This is essentially a free extra mod.

There is no need for stances/auras on weapons.... Even on Warframes and Melee weapons you have to pick+choose the mods you want to use due to capacity restrictions. Primary and Secondary weapons do not need more capacity so you can just throw on every big-cost mod without issue. If anything, the capacity available to melee weapons and warframes needs reduced. 

Arguments like yours are critical in power creep making Warframe piss-easy. The game is so mind-numbingling easy at this point... The arcanes+galvanized mods are a big increase in power for the player. An increase that I, and others like me, already feel is not necessary. 

You need to remember that the -only- faction people discuss is Grineer. Because they have absolutely stupid mechanics related to damage reduction. Have you played Steel Path against Corpus and Infested enemies? Guess what... primary and secondary weapons do just fine against these factions. The only issue is how they do against the Grineer and their 99% damage reduction...

I don't know how many times this needs to be said, but Warframe will forever be a horribly balanced mess until DE put their big-boy pants on and fix armor scaling on enemies. It doesn't take a PHD to realize that increasing player power output disproportionately increases lethality across the factions. 

A 20% increase in player DPS is straight up 20% to infested and corpus but gets reduced to like 2% increase against Grineer at the Steel Path level. This makes Corpus and Infested easier and easier while making Grineer only a little bit less absurd. 

 

And here's the thing. I'm not saying Grineer are hard. Quite the opposite. I'm simply saying they don't have scaling that is consistent with the other factions, making them the sole faction most players get towards. There's a reason plebs can be found regularly chastising players for not equipping Corrosive Projection... There's a reason most of the youtube dweebs target Corrupted Heavy Gunners and Exo units when they do their demonstrations... 

 

Here's the solution. It is really easy:

DE, set enemy damage reduction from armor to a constant value. Set it at 75%. Then across all factions adjust health values so that there is cohesiveness with regard to difficulty. 

Instead of making adjustments to weapons fix the enemies... THEN adjust the weapons...

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I still question myself about necramechs on normal missions but lemme be honest...

if they put combo counter on weapons like for example snipers, would be way more good than mods that just buff your stats on kills... ( not questioning about arcanes, they're good, i kinda liked them )

imagine bloodrush and condition overload for primaries and secondaries for example.. would be more appetizing ya know?

but who im i to question the changes.. just seeing in game and dreaming about primed point strike and vital sense. things i think will never exist cause melee is the only way to do steel path or having the patience of melt an entire mag to kill a single sponge of bullet a.k.a any steel path enemy.

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12 minutes ago, uritinum said:

I still question myself about necramechs on normal missions but lemme be honest...

if they put combo counter on weapons like for example snipers, would be way more good than mods that just buff your stats on kills... ( not questioning about arcanes, they're good, i kinda liked them )

imagine bloodrush and condition overload for primaries and secondaries for example.. would be more appetizing ya know?

but who im i to question the changes.. just seeing in game and dreaming about primed point strike and vital sense. things i think will never exist cause melee is the only way to do steel path or having the patience of melt an entire mag to kill a single sponge of bullet a.k.a any steel path enemy.

It is not necessary to do combo systems with primary and secondary weapons... Arcanes and Galvanized mods already do stacking effects like blood rush and condition overload... They just do so with out an arbitrary system added to it like combo multiplier...

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6 минут назад, Leqesai сказал:

It is not necessary to do combo systems with primary and secondary weapons... Arcanes and Galvanized mods already do stacking effects like blood rush and condition overload... They just do so with out an arbitrary system added to it like combo multiplier...

And this is a bad decision which separates meele and shooting even more.

I dont want to look at timers and perform a kill with specified weapon to maintain separate combos - i want to use convenient weapons in current situation. Switching between meele and primary not because i HAVE to, but when i WANT to.

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13 hours ago, GREF_TM said:

On guns that are already good and combined with arcanes, they will. Steel path spawns a lot of fodder enemies, and kiling fodder to get and maintain (mostly) buffs will not be a problem. 

 

Problem is not the buffs themselves, but the fact that melee, even nerfed, will continue to the same thing as guns with these buffs, but far cheaper (mod/forma costs) and without requiring you to do a metric crapton of tedious farms. A true testament to how bad this set of changes is as a solution to "guns vs melee" problem and how bad DE are at balancing their game in general - they went a full 180* from their initial "without neccesary directly nerfing melee, but rather buff guns to be comparable" statement to directly nerfing two of the most important (arguably) melee mods and the most powerful melee enabler, yet still couldn't make the buffs look good enough.

Ah I see. Good points sir, thanks for replying to my thread. I’m curious to see the repercussions of this update

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32 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

It is not necessary to do combo systems with primary and secondary weapons... Arcanes and Galvanized mods already do stacking effects like blood rush and condition overload... They just do so with out an arbitrary system added to it like combo multiplier...

 

27 minutes ago, Monrka said:

And this is a bad decision which separates meele and shooting even more.

I dont want to look at timers and perform a kill with specified weapon to maintain separate combos - i want to use convenient weapons in current situation. Switching between meele and primary not because i HAVE to, but when i WANT to.

Thats why i said, just seeing ingame content.. seeing only by stats not testing itself cant be sure about anything.

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No love for single target guns?

I mean, the aoe explosive meta already is the way to go about sp, if you push the dmg up with arcanes, warframe buffs, panzer viral and other stuff you are good to go.

Those new changes mean we don't need as much effort to reach this usability level.

But the fact is that as right now, even a buffed single target weapon pushed to its limit seems lacking while dealing with the man-vs-army situation ever present on warframe missions, specially on steel path. Its never a good idea to kill 20+ enemies one by one, when you can kill em all on a single bramma boom.

Now why not... if i may... suggest 3 mod ideas to make those beloved underused weapons a viable choice again, perhaps? All of them to be used on the exilus slot, and you could only use one at a time.

1- Homing bullets/arrows - One of the charms of explosive weapons is that you don't need to aim much to kill enemies. Even at long range its pretty easy to hit a target with a 13m radial explosion. It don't need to be a Buzlok level of homing, more like Akarius... still you need line of sight and to point in the right direction.

2- Chain bullets/arrows - Just like glaives or cedo's alternate fire. You aim for the first target, then those bullets would bounce to 2-3 enemies... maybe with reduced dmg... maybe not.

3- Glass bullets/arrows - Just like Astilla's slugs, those projectiles would shatter on impact dealing reduced radial or cone aoe dmg.

So if you are on a wide map, shooting enemies at 50+ meters, use homing bullets, as you have time to kill em before they get to you. If fighting small groups of difficult enemies then, use chain bullets to deal higher dmg to small groups. If you are fighting hordes of weak enemies, use glass bullets.

Maybe one day my beloved supra vandal will be as effective as a kuva bramma or phantasma... until then i'll keep exploding stuff up.

 

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