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Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide


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2 hours ago, Cicada144 said:

Cause it'll push more rivens. Everything build related will always fall down to rivens. Cause who doesn't just adore rivens.

Me, for one. Just couldn't care less and don't feel I'm missing anything (and currently have nothing uncompleted in game). I don't like the stupid gimmick games of unlocking them; I don't like endless layers of RNG involved in what you get; I won't reward DE with my time investment knowing future dispo passes will just screw me over; I refuse to farm just to make a swirly red slot machine go BRRR; and not a single thing in the game requires or even really benefits all that much from having one. Oh boy, that level 2000 SP grineer could die in one hit and display a 5millon damage number instead of just a 2millon damage number?!?! Zomg, a riven is totally needed for my meta build!

What's more, the whacky market for selling them is too much work despite the larger potential gains... few thou plat is plenty, only thing more is needed for is buying rivens.

I'm sure a few (relatively speaking) members of the playerbase are huge riven fans, but I'd be surprised if most players cared enough about rivens to make even a single plat purchase decision because of them.

Edited by -Augustus-
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DE gun/melee balance:

"Here's a bunch of stuff to grind, after you finish the star chart. New players, keep using melee. Buy drop chance boosters. Look at all these new timers!"

Me:

"I wish there was more of a point to relays and Iron Wake. The steel essence nerf is too heavy. Get rid of the 1 mission/hr arbitration limit. Why can't the new arcanes be tied to Sisters? Where's the third orb? Smeeta charm icons suck."

Smh

Edited by (XBOX)Mharcei
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DE "Our goal is to encourage you to use your entire Arsenal in-mission."

1) Ok Dev's, name 5 primaries and secondary's in the entire weapon arsenal that are non-kuva, non-aoe, and non-rivened that are effective to use in Steel Path without burning through a crap ton of ammo, AND, are highly efficient at killing mobs before we get swarmed and have to switch to melee... I'll wait.

2) Yes, I'm aware of Brozimes vid on top 5 weps to use. Guess what, they're all kuva, and aoe ( rivens were optional). Still doesn't answer my question now, does it?

3) May I politely suggest you turn off your Dev tools, play as an actual player who has had to spend countless hours enduring your layers of grind and nerf's, and then post a vid of your random primary/secondary weps of choice clearing Steel Path with the limitations from my Q #1. I would really be interested in seeing such a vid. 

4) Random question, but since I'm on my soap box, What exactly is your overall vision for Warframe? I'm a little confused here as to what it is. It appears to be disjointed, chaotic, lacking cohesion, and tbh, not really doing anything to improve the overall enjoyment of the game. If anything, especially over the past 18months- 2yrs, it appears to be more "us vs them" mentality. Especially when you have comments that directly support this theory from the Dev Streams. Just curious, I don't really expect an answer.

Edited by Old_Fogie
Spelling oopsies
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15 minutes ago, Old_Fogie said:

Ok Dev's, name 5 primaries and secondary's in the entire weapon arsenal that are non-kuva, non-aoe, and non-rivened that are effective to use in Steel Path without burning through a crap ton of ammo, AND, are highly efficient at killing mobs before we get swarmed and have to switch to melee... I'll wait.

You should also include a lack of primed mods (too much endo and credits to level them up, too much grid for ducats, and Baro comes too rarely to catch them), warframe buffs (for example, Mirage can clear any SP mission with essentially any reasonable weapon, prisma Gorgon is high recommended for extra dakka), and potatoes (these are so hard to obtain). Or, you might consider getting an Acrid riven for 5 plat and actually modding the Acrid and trying it in a corpus SP survival. And yes, it does work without warframe buffs. You won't kill 500 enemies in 5 minutes but you won't run out of life support either for at least 10 minutes (I did not have enough patients to stay longer). If Acrid can do it, almost any weapon should work.

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1 hour ago, Old_Fogie said:

3) May I politely suggest you turn off your Dev tools, play as an actual player who has had to spend countless hours enduring your layers of grind and nerf's, and then post a vid of your random primary/secondary weps of choice clearing Steel Path with the limitations from my Q #1. I would really be interested in seeing such a vid. 

If only there was some sort of server they could use to allow the public to test changes like this before they went live.  A public test server perhaps.  But alas, such arcane sorcery is impossible.

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42 minutes ago, akots said:

You should also include a lack of primed mods (too much endo and credits to level them up, too much grid for ducats, and Baro comes too rarely to catch them) . . . and potatoes (these are so hard to obtain).

Hopefully these two, at the very least, are jokes. It's not too much to expect collection and investment in primed mods and potatoed weapons before they're really SP viable without massive WF power assistance.

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The real question is why everyone here resides to post whines at de for making changes/additions to the game in an effort to better the playing field for less accomplished Tenno. Rather than complaining about the reworks or how you don’t like the grind or even how it’s tooo hard how bout you think for a moment before you complain, everyone is getting sick and tired of coming here to see if de has posted anything and the 10 newest post are people being pompous whining

might I also point out there’s about 65 pages worth on these forums of nothing but complaints point numero uno

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The arsenal Divide: Another perspective.
Key indicator number of forma: is higher for guns than it is for melee.

Melee: Pressure point, Mod Drain 9, Primed Pressure point 14
Primary & Secondary: Seration/Hornet Strike, Mod Drain 14 (note there is no prime version)
There is a disparity here.

Melee: You can choose Prime Pressure point or Condition overload, The difference in Mod capacity is one point
Primary & Secondary: You have to use Seration/Hornet Strike, They are absolutely required.
There is a disparity here.

Melee: You can place a stance mod that increases the mod capacity and in most cases increases the usability of the weapon and hidden stats.
Primary & Secondary: There is no such stance mod.
There is a disparity here.

The proposed fix? Galvanized mods: That are more expensive in mod capacity, Which inherently Increases the disparity by adding to the required number of forma needed to fit all the good mods on and having a minimal increase, with difficult to maintain buffs. This is a grind padded band-aid to test the idea... and while uptake will be high on the mods... it won't address the larger concerns only one of which I have pointed out here... the Forma divide.

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15 minutes ago, zuraja said:

If only there was some sort of server they could use to allow the public to test changes like this before they went live.  A public test server perhaps.  But alas, such arcane sorcery is impossible.

I was going to ask if this has a test server and found that you need to be "chosen" in order to join it (lol). What's worse is based on what I'm reading there's only been 3 tests last year.  Even Ragnarok Online a nearly 20 year old game has this and there's no need to do raffles.

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44 minutes ago, akots said:

You should also include a lack of primed mods (too much endo and credits to level them up, too much grid for ducats, and Baro comes too rarely to catch them), warframe buffs (for example, Mirage can clear any SP mission with essentially any reasonable weapon, prisma Gorgon is high recommended for extra dakka), and potatoes (these are so hard to obtain). Or, you might consider getting an Acrid riven for 5 plat and actually modding the Acrid and trying it in a corpus SP survival. And yes, it does work without warframe buffs. You won't kill 500 enemies in 5 minutes but you won't run out of life support either for at least 10 minutes (I did not have enough patients to stay longer). If Acrid can do it, almost any weapon should work.

Fair enough. I didn't specify primed mods and frame buffs.

So, for the sake of this experiment, let's toss in the primed mods for the top 5 weapons, but let's exclude the specialized frames. I.E. no Mirage or nuke frames.

Let's continue this hypothesis with the idea that a player wants to use a frame of his or her choosing instead of a meta frame for whatever reason ( player choice after all), and they want to do Steel Path with it. What weapons will the player have available to use in the above mentioned criteria from my previous post? Also, you recommended a riven for the Acrid, which is counter to my above requirements.

Good choice on the Prisma Gorgon. Let's take a look at the base stats from the Wiki;

Statistics

 Mastery

11

 Slot

Primary

 Type

Rifle

Trigger Type

Auto-Spool

Utility

Ammo Type

Rifle

Projectile Type

Hit-Scan

Fire Rate

14.17

Spool Up Rate

7

Accuracy

20

Magazine Size

120

Max Ammo

840

Reload Time

3 s

Disposition

●●●●○ (1.30x)

Normal Attack

 17.25 3.45 2.3

Total Damage

23 ( 75%)

Projectile Type

Hit-Scan

Fire Rate

14.17

Status Chance

15%

Crit Chance

30%

Crit Multiplier

2.3x

 

Looking at the numbers, you'd figure that if built properly, including primed mods, that it might be effective in Steel Path, right? Now, remember, even though riven dispo is good, we're still not slapping a riven on it, because DE wants us to be able to use our "Full Arsenal" ( their stated reasons). So, my question remains the same. How much ammo are you going to be using to drop baddies, and how efficient/effective is it going to be, before you need to switch to melee to keep the mobs from swarming you?

Just to be clear here. I am not deliberately attempting to start an argument. I would like to see some credible/viable weapon choices to be able to use on Steel Path, per DE's stated vision of being able to use "The Full Arsenal", per the given requirements of my above criteria in my previous post.

If any vets could toss up weps given that criteria, and with corresponding numbers, I think it would be a valuable point of discussion to assist others for when the new update drops.

 

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31 minutes ago, zuraja said:

If only there was some sort of server they could use to allow the public to test changes like this before they went live.  A public test server perhaps.  But alas, such arcane sorcery is impossible.

What a shocking idea. The potential, let alone use of said mythical artifact to assist in any problem solving would be mind boggling 😏

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12 hours ago, (XBOX)Mharcei said:

DE gun/melee balance:

"New players, Buy drop chance boosters. Look at all these new timers!"

New Players is their way of milking people for money, like a certain compney who does this as well

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OK so what I got from this throw all. Your glaives in the trash. Throw kuva nukor in the trash. You no longer can use them as kuva nukor was already very weak and it was only good as a low level mod mass murder now it can't mass murder might as well use a explosive primary. Glaives now suck cause the only use was to use them On warframe from distance explosions which used to be good then it got nerfed to where it can't one shot steel path then it can't 1 shot level 70 enimies and now it can't 1 shot level 45 enimies and now they nerfed quick throw so now it can't 1 shot level 35 enimies. So just throw glaives in the trash unless you want a weird looking dagger that doesn't even get dagger bonuses. We are going to also be throwing alot of melee only mods in the trash hey we heard you like berserker and you won't use any other speed mod so we nerfed it so hard to where it's more viable to just used primed speed mod cause 24 secs is too long and so is 15sec so we are going to nerf it to 10 secs. 

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15 hours ago, Old_Fogie said:

What weapons will the player have available to use in the above mentioned criteria from my previous post?

Went an hour with Mag and Exergis/Cernos P. Or you can try Zephyr with pretty much any weapon. Nova also works. The narrativ that guns do not work in SP is wrong, they are not as good/comfy as melee though.

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5 hours ago, NightclubRush said:

Are you sure about the Blood Rush changes?  We will simply go ahead and use the Sacrificial set and get 550% critical chance if the new max of Blood Rush is going to be 480%.

not sure if i'm high but i don't understand your math

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Your thought process and ways of going about things don't line up at all.

En 18/6/2021 a las 16:00, [DE]Rebecca dijo:

Berserker:

Attack Speed increases for Melee are part of what makes it so dominant. This is especially true when the conditions to reach animation-breaking Attack Speed are as simple as current Berserker: ‘on Critical Hit’. Infinite Attack-Speed Uptime is possible with a single Mod, and the result is animation noise with no distinction between hits, coupled with massive Damage output. 

So you say melee attacks too fast which breaks animation yet you lower it by 5% and just make this mod worthless on single targets. In most missions, we'll still have broken animations but now we won't be able to use this mod for stuff like bosses, liches and demolysts. Worst of both worlds

En 18/6/2021 a las 16:00, [DE]Rebecca dijo:

Our goal is to encourage you to use your entire Arsenal in-mission. Switching between Primary, Secondary, and Melee weapons should feel like valid and strategic options, in contrast to the uncontested Melee dominance that exists in the current meta. We want Melee to be fun and powerful as you rip and tear your way through the solar system but we want players to have that same level of fun and power with Primary and Secondary weapons should that be their preference. 

The option to choose is key here -- one that is lessened by the current divide between Melee and everything else. Our approach to lessen this divide will be through changes to existing Mods, the addition of new Mods, as well as introducing new Primary and Secondary Weapon Upgrades.

That sounds good only if you don't think about it at all.
That divide will be there for the entire starchart because the only mods that can lessen it are literally after the whole thing is wide open.

Misses the point of reducing the gap where it matters.

Worst part about this is that so many of these galvanized mods have on-kill stacks.
The only guns where these mods will be good are the top tier ones that can reliably get kills in the content these mods are supposedly made for.
To top it off, the stacking on kill will just make people stick to a gun and keep its stacks up.
It might add variety between missions but this just incentivizes even more religious use of only one of our weapons rather than offer any meaningful synergy.

Charger arcanes just makes it so you have zero stacks on both your primary AND melee so neither of them will really do anything.

Y'know what ACTUALLY promoted variety in the game?
That time you made all prime melees sidegrades to eachother while keeping them all at a worth while level of power.
Suddenly, picking a melee became a matter of personal taste, whichever one seemed most fun was "the best one".

Condition overload also provided some variety, we now use status heavy primaries and secondaries to add more damage stacks for it.
With the removal of a third of its power and also limiting the amount of stacks making it stack considerably less, this mod is now worthless.
With it goes the need for specialized "CO primer guns".


That being said:
The changes to blood rush make sense.
Now there's a valid reason to pick between it and gladiator mods, this will add some variety to builds.
Good stuff.

Glaive changes just mean people will opt for Amalgam Organ Shatter instead of the normal one to get proper damage going, no other changes will happen.

Kuva Nukor Changes - surprises nobody and is very much warranted, no complaints here.

The new arcanes are kinda nice but much like the galvanized mods, only the weapons that are already strong enough to easily get kills at high level will benefit from them.
These will only widen the gap between the meta weapons and off-meta weapons.

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On 2021-06-18 at 5:29 PM, Circle_of_Psi said:

Can we remove the Age Block?, not everyone wants to sell their information or give their credit card details to YT, this effects even logged in users Edit: Even with the restrictions off, YT is asking for Credit Card Information or an ID (No one wants to do that)

@[DE]Rebecca

"(No one wants to do that)"

Sadly way too many people are perfectly fine giving their personal information to the "big companies", otherwise Youtube wouldn't implement stuff like this. My Youtube account is 14 years old so if I weren't 4 years or younger when I got the account I'm over 18. But I did find a way around it. It has to do with the term NSFW. Just search "watch age restricted youtube videos" (at least I got a few hits on duckduckgo).

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6 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Went an hour with Mag and Exergis/Cernos P. Or you can try Zephyr with pretty much any weapon. Nova also works. The narrativ that guns do not work in SP is wrong, they are not as good/comfy as melee though.

Yet, you failed to mention how efficient/effective they were, how much ammo consumption, and how often you had to switch to melee. Additionally, I did not state that guns do not work on SP, but which 5 primary/secondary weps would be viable to use without them being kuva, aoe, or a riven on them.

Exergis: Good wep, can reach over 100k+ in damage depending on mods, and is single target, has a slow recharge rate. Doesn't require ammo, IIRC. I'm guessing you used Mag's bubble to group baddies, and then used the Exergis to nuke? Wise choice.

Cernos Prime: Another excellent choice. Vertical or Horizontal spread, can be built for crit or hybrid. Ammo dependent. Good riven dispo, but we're not using a riven for the sake of this experiment. I'm guessing you used Zephyrs wind shield and hover abilities, and sprayed arrows from above. Good tactics.

Frames: Both good choices, as we want player choice to be available, and not a meta requirement. How much of that hour were you relying on your WF abilities instead of using your weps? Or better yet, in conjunction with your weps in order to drop targets?

Ok, so we have 2 primary weapons out of 5 potential recommendations, and no secondary mentions as of yet. Any others?

According to DE's 'vision', they want us to be able to use our full arsenal, hence why they're doing this. I would be interested in seeing some other recommendations for weapon choices.

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"Primary and Secondary mods are weak compared to melee so we decided to not change the weak mods, weaken melee mods instead and just added some new gun mods and arcanes which can only be obtained after you've cleared the starchart"

Edited by Rage_Inducer
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hace 22 horas, Old_Fogie dijo:

-a fair point-

It's simple, you don't use a Prisma Gorgon.
All these new mods and arcanes will actually do with their on-kill stacks is just make people religiously use current meta weapons; the ones that can most easily get their stacks maxed out the quickest.
They will achieve only the further widening of the gap between meta and off-meta weapons and pushing people further into using only 1 weapon lest they lose their stacks.

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50 minutes ago, smithmacke said:

anything to get people to buy more plat

Yeah....not sure this workshop is going to have the desired effect, I mean look at how the community has responded to the workshops across the forums and other platforms. Their ignorance to the vast majority of feedback is only reinforcing negativity. Sad really.

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