Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide

[ShortCat]

8 hours ago, Old_Fogie said:

Frames: Both good choices, as we want player choice to be available, and not a meta requirement. How much of that hour were you relying on your WF abilities instead of using your weps? Or better yet, in conjunction with your weps in order to drop targets?

Shall I play with one hand or blindfold myself too? You imposed unreasonable condition from the get-go and now it is also not allowed to use Frames to boost damage. In your case the issue is between your desk and your chair.

[ArcKnight9202]

After looking at these changes and thinking about them for a few days, I thought I would add my feedback.

TL;DR - I'm not in favor of the proposed weapon changes and they seem like a total waste of time.

Speaking only for myself, I have no interest in Steel Path. So almost everything in this update is a flat nerf to tackle a problem I was never having. To reclaim this power I must burn who knows how many forma to alter my weapon polarities, play Arbitrations which I also absolutely despise, and then burn a railjack-load of endo to level up these mods. What's not to love? I'm not going to get into the hoop-jumping gameplay of the mods themselves, the timers, and the arcanes. Minor grievances to be sure, but it's nice to know you're at full power and blow things up without too much micro-management.

Counter-argument
It can be argued that since I do not partake in those activities that it wouldn't matter so much. While that's true, I do sometimes engage in those types of activities. Now, any time I engage in these activities, it will feel worse because my power in certain regards was trimmed away.

To conclude, these changes are not for me at all. I've been having a very hard time wanting to play the game since I hit MR30. It's surprising how much that killed my desire to play. Anyways, I don't see this bringing me back. Also, the parazon changes are absolutely baffling.

 

[CephalonCarnage]

2 minutes ago, ArcKnight9202 said:

It's surprising how much that killed my want to play

Its not, the whole game is a grind for the next "level". Once you've achieve the goal, there is nothing left. This game itself is not a game you play for entertainment, but for the rewards.  So your response is perfectly natural.

[Old_Fogie]

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

Shall I play with one hand or blindfold myself too? You imposed unreasonable condition from the get-go and now it is also not allowed to use Frames to boost damage. In your case the issue is between your desk and your chair.

Not at all.

Unreasonable conditions? My question posed a non-meta frame ( I. E. no nuke), and no AOE, Kuva, and rivened weapons, per DE's stated vision of 'Wanting players to use the full arsenal". How is my question unreasonable? Especially considering all the weapons available in Warframe's arsenal.

Additionally, may I politely suggest you re-read that which you quoted? No where in that context did I stipulate that a player couldn't use a frame. In fact, I stipulated A non-meta frame. There are plenty of frames that are considered non-meta. Also, from your highlighting a selective portion of my post as your quote, I was asking how much the individual in question was relying on WF abilities, whether by itself, or in conjunction with weapons for informational purposes.

It would probably offend you less if you actually read the entire missive and comprehend the entire context of the post, instead of cherry picking a select section in order to self justify your snark. But then again, it is WF forums, so, who knows.

[ShaaBuutr]

Well, I got my multiple years of entertainment from this game
So long, and thanks for all the fish!

[DarknessNightshade]

On 2021-06-29 at 11:59 PM, Old_Fogie said:

DE "Our goal is to encourage you to use your entire Arsenal in-mission."

1) Ok Dev's, name 5 primaries and secondary's in the entire weapon arsenal that are non-kuva, non-aoe, and non-rivened that are effective to use in Steel Path without burning through a crap ton of ammo, AND, are highly efficient at killing mobs before we get swarmed and have to switch to melee... I'll wait.

2) Yes, I'm aware of Brozimes vid on top 5 weps to use. Guess what, they're all kuva, and aoe ( rivens were optional). Still doesn't answer my question now, does it?

3) May I politely suggest you turn off your Dev tools, play as an actual player who has had to spend countless hours enduring your layers of grind and nerf's, and then post a vid of your random primary/secondary weps of choice clearing Steel Path with the limitations from my Q #1. I would really be interested in seeing such a vid. 

I personally think you've misread this to mean "use your entire collection of weapons in your inventory". In your arsenal you have a Warframe, Primary, Secondary, Melee, Companion, then you have the optional Heavy Weapon, Archwing, Necramech and K-Drive, at least that's my interpretation.

Your first point points out the fact that melee is overused, and that Primary/Secondary need to become more viable, which is exactly what the arsenal divide is established to at least somewhat lessen the gap between Melee and Gunplay.

Second point, Kuva weapons are powerful for what they are, they're obtainable at Mastery Rank 5 but do not behave in the same bracket as Low MR weapons that are supposed to have lower DPS and usefulness due to how early on in the game you can acquire them, thus a good bunch of weapons are mastered and promptly deleted cus they are no longer within the proper bracket for your playtime. Being able to acquire some of the most powerful weapons in the game that early on instantly makes the rest of the available weapons non-viable to someone who knows how to quickly kill their lich in the lower levels, now that Sisters of Parvos is introducing a way to skip known reqiuems too, that issue is only going to compound on itself.

I've suggested before that Kuva Weapons only be available to players at MR9 or above, to justify their strength and have players get used to the modding system, acquire Ignis Wraith, etc, but I doubt that idea will be brought forward among the mountain of complaints in the forum, I think this change would greatly reduce the amount of players I've been seeing going into Lich gameplay and not know what to do, softlocking themselves into the Lvl 100+ missions with no viable way to get out of it or cancel their lich.

Third point, the devs (or at least a few of them) have demonstrated they can play the game as normally as anyone else, during their livestreams, etc, changes are playtested and adjusted according to their initial findings like any game developer would, then the live build is for feedback, which is then fed back through this forum for them to see where they could've done better or where they actually met expectations, I've not been one to visit their livestreams or dev streams myself but I'm pretty sure the devs are more than capable of playing their own game, pretty sure there was a series of livestreams of playing the game with a new account.

However, I do think that devs should have some sort of understanding as to how many hours a certain task might take without the ability to just snap their fingers and having anything in the game, though, like any company they have to pay the bills, so naturally it's up to the player to decide how much time they want to spend playing the game if they're F2P, or how much money they want to spend to speed things up or make things look nice.

Fourth point for all the marbles: you're not going to get an exact answer for what DE's vision for Warframe is, I don't think there's any specific end-goal in mind, considering it's been a fair few years since the game first came out that's a non-issue most likely, and I don't think there's gonna be any specific answers for what's coming up next as things tend to change and get retconned like any other story would.

There's a deep lore embedded in the game in every aspect of the star chart, every enemy type or tileset, and honestly it's one of the most intriguing intricate storylines I've seen in any game, and you can tell DE has put a lot of care and attention into every little tidbit put into their game, content has been somewhat consistent (maybe not in quality on launch but you're not gonna get everything perfect first try), the experience is cohesive and makes me feel something I can't describe when I'm walking around on an alien planet, and as far as I'm concerned, that's enough proof for me that DE actually cares about where their game is headed and what the player thinks of the game. 

However as far as the vision for balancing the divide between melee and guns, well this workshop exists, changes are made according to feedback before the update even goes live, and they do put in effort to read through suggestions and constructive comments.

I have seen some other suggestions be ignored for far too long however, like Gara's armour and having it not disappear, which was only patched recently, though the "intended" mechanic was that gara's whole gimmick was shattering glass, the ability description even points out the change:

"Splinter Storm: Gara's armour splinters into a maelstrom of shattered glass..."

It's not something that was entirely necessary to do, but it made the majority of players who found it to be an issue a bit happier, and that says to me that DE's vision for the game is to have people enjoy playing it.

 

 

[KingWaterbird]

they have a mod that buffs sidearms on thrown melee kill (mark of the beast) now that glaive damaged has been nerfed how will it be still effective on Steel Path?

[ValinorAtani]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb S1mplyFresh:

Kinda sucks that 95% (or more?) of players want Waframe to just be some casual "kill everything, no skill or thinking required" type of game. Any time DE plans or releases an update that shakes up the meta or encourages more theory-crafting, I get excited, and it actually makes me want to play Warframe.

But nah, the moment DE releases anything that requires more brain function, skill, and theory-crafting, many of you pull out the pitch forks.

Now I know why we'll ever get TRUE endgame in Warframe. If you're all complaining about these negligible Melee (balance) changes, then there's really no hope for a bigger and better Warfame.

 

Guess the people expected an whole rework of guns (like Melee 3.0 or was it 2.999999999, forgot it already) instead of a lazy bandaid cashgrab "Here have new mods/arcanes because we are to dumb, greedy, ignorant and incompetent to rework guns reasonable" But who knows theses days *shrug*

[Alpha56]

About Galvanized scope and Galvanized crosshair and the buff when aiming for 12s.
Seriously who would aim for 12s ? 12 secondes !!!

When you aim you lose all mobility, so in that time you can't run, you can't dodge, you can't loot, you can't use properly your skills, you can't prevent your companion from taking too much damage, you can't do objectives.

Even in a static mission like a defense i would never do that, at max i would aim for 3 to 4s.
This is BAD even without trying.

I would remove the aiming time totally, and go for something that should reward us, like headshot.

 

[vanaukas]

Cool changes, looking forward to them

[ViroMelchior]

On 2021-06-18 at 8:38 AM, Aldain said:

...Here we go with the power creep.

So many of those mods/arcanes stack too many times, seriously...30% times 12 on that arcane is just insane...also it will flat out make the Kuva Bramma and other such AoE weapons even more insane, even if you put them behind Steel Path they're obscene.

The Galvanized mods also aren't sidegrades, they're flat out better after ramp up, which is the exact problem you just tried to fix with Condition Overload, especially the Status Chance ones.

Edit: Also while this is all well and good for Steel Path, it just reinforces that the baseline content of the game is intended to be an effortless AoE fest.

DE, I love you guys, but this doesn't solve the Arsenal divide, it just reinforces aspects of it.

Absolutely agree.  My favorite strategy for farming right now is Khora + Kuva Bramma.  With Primed Firestorm, I can literally just shoot the center of my dome (that is, where I was standing when I activated it), and hit everything on it at once.  Damage is lower than statstick + whipping the dome, but leaves me free to run any melee weapon, not worry about combo counter decay, only needs energy for Dome casts, etc.

Getting Galvanized Multishot is just going to be more free damage, because I EASILY keep the kills coming, even on SP (especially when my good little 2nd kitty gives me guaranteed orange crits).

And these mods are boring.  The headshot one is the best (in terms of interesting mechanic).  The others are just "kill stuff, get stats".  Basically, you lose your stats if you afk.  But then you get a couple kills and they're back.  Like combo counter, if it maxed at 2x.

What bugged me the most was Rebecca calling Blood Rush a "one mod solution" - even though you HAVE to run a combo duration mod with it (or use Naramon style, giving up Energizing Dash).  You're definitely paying more than a single mod slot to run a Blood Rush melee build.

Or "we're JUST reducing the number of chain targets the Kuva Nukor gets to 2.".  Spoken as if that was a super ultra trivial change, when it will massively change the damage potential of the weapon....

Treating us like we're idiots.

Quote

Melee nerf is really good tho but why would you stack attack speed mods when you have arcane/volt speed/ (insert attack speed buff)

Even without those buffs, I rarely stacked attack speed on most (not slow) weapons.  75% from Berserker was more than enough to get attack speed to a feeling-good stage (not too many E presses, and I hate using mousewheel).

And stopping us from stacking Berserker with Fury/Primed Fury?  Who cares?  I can still stack Quickening and Gladiator Vice.  So with this change, I'm down from 200% speed using 4 mods to 140% using 3 mods.  And I've never actually ran 4 speed mods on anything (it isn't efficient for maxing damage).

If you ask me, the nerfs to Berserker are meaningless.  The only change that matters is making it not rely on crits.  Instead it relies on kills.  Like all the new Galvanized mods.  Yay, just going to have everyone running mods that require getting kills, so they can complain when someone runs past them and nukes the entire hallway, making their counters reset.

[master_of_destiny]

On 2021-07-01 at 3:19 AM, S1mplyFresh said:

Kinda sucks that 95% (or more?) of players want Waframe to just be some casual "kill everything, no skill or thinking required" type of game. Any time DE plans or releases an update that shakes up the meta or encourages more theory-crafting, I get excited, and it actually makes me want to play Warframe.

But nah, the moment DE releases anything that requires more brain function, skill, and theory-crafting, many of you pull out the pitch forks.

Now I know why we'll ever get TRUE endgame in Warframe. If you're all complaining about these negligible Melee (balance) changes, then there's really no hope for a bigger and better Warfame.

 

 

There's a part of me that wants to respond to this...and another that knows this is a conversation with a bad actor that simply wants to have a fight with "those less skilled" than themselves.

 

That said, let me give you the benefit of doubt.

 

DE has sold this on two things.  Item one is that guns were being reviewed and would get a buff.  Item two was that we were going to get the corpus Liches that were heavily implied to be part of Railjack 3.0....and the week before launch were quietly back pedaled to not be a feature despite all of the conversation.  Both of these things would be potentially great.  Player power upgrades are nice, and the whole Lich thing from the other side would have been a nice complement.  

 

Now, what do we actually get?  Hmm.... Let me bullet point.

1. Buffed guns became gun buffs and melee tweaks.  This then became gun buffs and melee "slight nerfs."  This then winds up being gun grind, and scaling damage nerfs to melee.  I now have to grind what was sold as "an optional and challenging game mode" to get the item, to unlock the ability, to grind for an arcane, that might or might not actually buff guns dependent on whether I'm playing a mode where DE's enemy AI will produce enough enemies to be a challenge.  Ouch.
2. The Lich system makes a return...but they've been light on the details of how you face your Lich in space.  That's frustrating, because the common complaint is that even knowing all 3 mods, you have to arrange them in the right order.  3*2*1=6.  Hmm.... after all the grind I have a 1/6 chance of getting the right order.
3. The Lich system is getting easier.  You'll be able to stick a random "freebie" requiem.  Of course this sounds great, but it isn't.  The luckiest I can get is to unlock two mods, get insanely lucky and have them be 1 and 2.  Be even luckier, and order them correctly.  Be absolutely lottery winning lucky and face off against the Lich...all to burn through a resource I now have to grind again that has a low drop percentage and I'll have to grind more missions to get requiem relics to even have a chance to unlock.
4. Hmmm....you have a weekly RNG shop requiring presumably large amounts of RNG railjack holokey drops.  This is how you can both time gate, gate the fusions to power up weapons, and then top things off with an RNG spice that screams "grind me until I'm dust tsundere senpai."
5. But, the actual Liches will be good, right?  Maybe.  I'm looking at their information...and it's another black hole.  How do robo-dog parts drop?   How difficult will it be to do the Granum Void with frames that aren't DPS focused?  Only more questions.
6. Yaereli is looking passable.  We have no data, but I can give her the benefit of doubt as being good.  Likewise, a dojo upgrade is great....because the last one was the dry dock.  It'd be nice to get a real stream of content, an this could make that happen.

 

So...my bright spot is that despite the otherwise grindy and nerfy nature of what is coming, a motion comic and k-drive races are what I look forward to?  I cannot even believe that's the bar, but here we are.

 

So yeah.  This isn't about whining.  It isn't about wanting more.  It's about wanting an update where DE doesn't install three new kinds of grind....which seems like won't ever happen.  It's really difficult to be happy, when what I see first is a gigantic change of priority, then I get a grind sandwich, and my bright spot is a frame that's almost three years late to the k-drive party.  What a resounding wet thud of enthusiasm.

[BunnyHunny94]

5 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

1. Buffed guns became gun buffs and melee tweaks.  This then became gun buffs and melee "slight nerfs."  This then winds up being gun grind, and scaling damage nerfs to melee.  I now have to grind what was sold as "an optional and challenging game mode" to get the item, to unlock the ability, to grind for an arcane, that might or might not actually buff guns dependent on whether I'm playing a mode where DE's enemy AI will produce enough enemies to be a challenge.  Ouch.
2. The Lich system makes a return...but they've been light on the details of how you face your Lich in space.  That's frustrating, because the common complaint is that even knowing all 3 mods, you have to arrange them in the right order.  3*2*1=6.  Hmm.... after all the grind I have a 1/6 chance of getting the right order.
3. The Lich system is getting easier.  You'll be able to stick a random "freebie" requiem.  Of course this sounds great, but it isn't.  The luckiest I can get is to unlock two mods, get insanely lucky and have them be 1 and 2.  Be even luckier, and order them correctly.  Be absolutely lottery winning lucky and face off against the Lich...all to burn through a resource I now have to grind again that has a low drop percentage and I'll have to grind more missions to get requiem relics to even have a chance to unlock.
4. Hmmm....you have a weekly RNG shop requiring presumably large amounts of RNG railjack holokey drops.  This is how you can both time gate, gate the fusions to power up weapons, and then top things off with an RNG spice that screams "grind me until I'm dust tsundere senpai."
5. But, the actual Liches will be good, right?  Maybe.  I'm looking at their information...and it's another black hole.  How do robo-dog parts drop?   How difficult will it be to do the Granum Void with frames that aren't DPS focused?  Only more questions.
6. Yaereli is looking passable.  We have no data, but I can give her the benefit of doubt as being good.  Likewise, a dojo upgrade is great....because the last one was the dry dock.  It'd be nice to get a real stream of content, an this could make that happen.

1. I do not really get what you are trying to say here.

2.1 Do you expect to be spoon fed every single piece of information about how new content works, instead of figuring it out for yourself? And worse, even before it is released?
2.2 When knowing the three correct mods, but knowing nothing about their order, yes there is a 1/6 chance to get the order right on first try. However, it only takes max 4 attempts to get the order correct, once all 3 mods are known. Now i wonder, why you even have all 3 requiems unveiled without knowing anything about their order in the first place (implying that since unveiling the first requiem, you have never encountered your lich?). 

Did i misunderstand you here and you are talking about the case that we would have to unveil our 3 requiems, but never see our lich and then without having tested anything, we go face off the lich? In that case, a universal requiem would actually be completely worthless (and made so, by changes within the same update that introduces it?). Maybe i am wrong here, but that is not how i understood it would work (more like it works right now, but instead of directly defeating the lich once you have your requiems in the right order, the lich will run off to the final mission at this point, where you then defeat it).

3. The universal requiem has the potential to be incredibly useful (with the current requiem system), assuming it does not lose its "charges" as long as it is not used when actually killing a lich. It would allow to easily test the fit of an unveiled requiem in the 2nd slot, without requiring the fit for the 1st slot having been found first. This does not require any luck.

4. Would you prefer no time gating and no grind at all? What would be the result of that? Receiving it by mail, for free?

5.1 Again: Do you expect to be spoon fed every single piece of information about how new content works, instead of figuring it out for yourself? And worse, even before it is released?
5.2 How difficult will it be to run the Granum Void without a dps focused frame? You can literally do it in the game right now.

6. What? Can't tell if you are being serious about the dojo room addition being great. Especially, since this is basically a time gate in its purest form, for the acquisition of Yareli.

 

13 hours ago, Alpha56 said:

About Galvanized scope and Galvanized crosshair and the buff when aiming for 12s.
Seriously who would aim for 12s ? 12 secondes !!!

When you aim you lose all mobility, so in that time you can't run, you can't dodge, you can't loot, you can't use properly your skills, you can't prevent your companion from taking too much damage, you can't do objectives.

Even in a static mission like a defense i would never do that, at max i would aim for 3 to 4s.
This is BAD even without trying.

I would remove the aiming time totally, and go for something that should reward us, like headshot.

 

lol
You are joking, right?

[master_of_destiny]

3 hours ago, BunnyHunny94 said:

1. I do not really get what you are trying to say here.

2.1 Do you expect to be spoon fed every single piece of information about how new content works, instead of figuring it out for yourself? And worse, even before it is released?
2.2 When knowing the three correct mods, but knowing nothing about their order, yes there is a 1/6 chance to get the order right on first try. However, it only takes max 4 attempts to get the order correct, once all 3 mods are known. Now i wonder, why you even have all 3 requiems unveiled without knowing anything about their order in the first place (implying that since unveiling the first requiem, you have never encountered your lich?). 

Did i misunderstand you here and you are talking about the case that we would have to unveil our 3 requiems, but never see our lich and then without having tested anything, we go face off the lich? In that case, a universal requiem would actually be completely worthless (and made so, by changes within the same update that introduces it?). Maybe i am wrong here, but that is not how i understood it would work (more like it works right now, but instead of directly defeating the lich once you have your requiems in the right order, the lich will run off to the final mission at this point, where you then defeat it).

3. The universal requiem has the potential to be incredibly useful (with the current requiem system), assuming it does not lose its "charges" as long as it is not used when actually killing a lich. It would allow to easily test the fit of an unveiled requiem in the 2nd slot, without requiring the fit for the 1st slot having been found first. This does not require any luck.

4. Would you prefer no time gating and no grind at all? What would be the result of that? Receiving it by mail, for free?

5.1 Again: Do you expect to be spoon fed every single piece of information about how new content works, instead of figuring it out for yourself? And worse, even before it is released?
5.2 How difficult will it be to run the Granum Void without a dps focused frame? You can literally do it in the game right now.

6. What? Can't tell if you are being serious about the dojo room addition being great. Especially, since this is basically a time gate in its purest form, for the acquisition of Yareli.

Just... wow.  I don't agree, but thank you for proving that it was reasonable to grant doubt.

 

Point 1 is that this has been a promise for a long time.  Namely DE started out promising A, morphed it to B, and the release notes are actually C.  For the record this is A defined as a buff for everything to be useful.  C is a nerd to scaling, and stats, to equalize outcome of gun usage...not to equalize the opportunity to make everything viable.

 

Point 2 is bifurcated, but should not be.  As stated, the chance of ordering mods is 1:6.  You then changed the goal, and said using logical elimination you only need 4.  This is tangential, and not brought up because the point was the grind.

The bifurcation is that you are ok with DE releasing an unknown.  Let me challenge you with their history.  K-drives were an unknown.  They all have separate part costs.  The most expensive and least expensive were found by the community to be statistically the same.  Hmmm... so their acceptable release is item one costs 3x more than 2...and to understand this you grind out the board, trade standing, build the boards...and learn that you wasted your time.  I didn't need to know 1 was different than 2 by 10%, but discovering they were the same after as all that grind was miserable.  This is why this is not "spoon feeding," but critical basics for understanding 

Do note, I have 0 stress over Lich weapon stats...so frame the discussion with that.

Finally for 2, there is no data.  That's the point.  If I knew a Lich was like a boss battle it'd be fine.  If it's like current railjack you grind the murmurs.  You grind a mission in railjack.  You then grind a boss battle.  That's more steps than now, despite them literally saying the system is being streamlined.  WTF?

 

Point 3...  What?  If you assume the thing works differently than all others, it is useful.  You mean, on top of being a wildcard it doesn't decay?  Then why not just make it two murmurs?  If I assume that Yaereli will make enemies explode into rare resources on kill she's also able to be assumed to be great.  Of course, this is all fantasy...so it's not a discussion.  On top of that, previous dev streams indicated it would be a normal requiem but function as a wild card...so the fantasy seems irrational on both our parts.

 

 

Point 4 is facile stupidity.  You are implying that cutting your grass with napalm is preferable to letting it overgrow.  There's a middle ground of using a lawn mower.  I want a grind that rewards.  This is a series of RNG time halts.  There is a difference.  To cite where DE did this right, focus schools.  You had a huge affinity grind, but were rewarded with real power.  I did all the grind of Liches...and use about 2 of their weapons.  That is a grind, with rewards so slim as to be insulting.  With DE's policy of releasing content under powered, tell me why these new multiple layer grinds will somehow reward differently.

 

Point 5....another facile argument.  I don't need or ask for all information.  I ask to know enough to gauge whether this is going to be a rewarding system, or basic Liches all over again.  

I also have issues with your DPS frame assumption.  With the spawns in the Granum area being a touch wonky solo, it'll be difficult for some frames to cope.  Elements link to frame, so some elements will be harder to get.  That's fine, but something that will limit choices or force meta.  When meta is the only choice for most players, this game is bad.  I want to know that DE conceives this as an issue, and has some balancing factor in place.  You know, the idea that they aren't going to release another Kuva Bramma, which literally lacked basic balance and became the only way to play for a lot of people.

 

Point 6...no.  A time gate is something you are forced to wait for, like a build time.  That is an issue in the dojo, but you missed the whole picture.  You get the frame...and have a whole new themed place for content.  It takes no brain power to see DE is setting up a place to theme modular archwing... and that is content.  I am enthusiastic about the potential of a new dojo area.  I criticize the new frame, but keep an open mind.  If you do not recognize potential, with a one time build cost, how are you still here?  A 23 hour wait for forma literally hundreds of times should have broken you by now....even if those forma are worth waiting for to make your favorite item stronger.

 

 

 

So...I think the difference in opinion here is largely you projecting a strawman onto the opposing argument.  It might be worth listening to the other side.  You have rational arguments, and expressed them well.  Thank you for that.

 

With that offered, I cannot buy your premises.  While they come from a reasonable place, they miss a lot of fine nuance, and selectively ignore the established modus operandi of DE.

Please don't be afraid to demand data.  Often DE makes stupid assumptions.  Leaving figuring things out to players is the same "mystery box" that killed Star Wars, Star Trek, Lost, and anything that director touches.  If we let DE do the same don't be surprised when we see more systems that hit 3.0 revisions in less years.

 

Remember, there are still videos out there of a railjack being summoned to Fortuna, picking up tennos, breaching atmosphere, engaging an enemy ship that is shielded, contacting a ground crew to destroy a ground installation on the plains, then obliterating it.  We, as a community ate that crap up.  Years later we have....Scarlet Spear.  That's the price of not calling shenanigans.

[GREF_TM]

On 2021-07-02 at 1:10 AM, KingWaterbird said:

now that glaive damaged has been nerfed how will it be still effective on Steel Path?

Heavy attack damage is unchanged. Heavy throw was used 99.9% of the time to proc this mod. You can figure out the rest.

[MistressMoonpaw]

I totally love the idea of "Arcane Slot Unlockers", arcane slots used to be free but no, youll have to grind for that, for the rest of your warframe life (which will probably end when this abomination of a mainline patch gets released).

Whenever any new primary or secondary will be released youll have to grind for that stupid thing again, and again, and again.

Because its either that or youll simply miss out on a large portion of potential dps.

This will kill the game. Adding more and more "perma-grind" to the game.

Instead of good and quality (= not riddled with tons of bugs) content, we get a grindfest. Amazing

[BunnyHunny94]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb master_of_destiny:

Just... wow.  I don't agree, but thank you for proving that it was reasonable to grant doubt.

 

Point 1 is that this has been a promise for a long time.  Namely DE started out promising A, morphed it to B, and the release notes are actually C.  For the record this is A defined as a buff for everything to be useful.  C is a nerd to scaling, and stats, to equalize outcome of gun usage...not to equalize the opportunity to make everything viable.

 

Point 2 is bifurcated, but should not be.  As stated, the chance of ordering mods is 1:6.  You then changed the goal, and said using logical elimination you only need 4.  This is tangential, and not brought up because the point was the grind.

The bifurcation is that you are ok with DE releasing an unknown.  Let me challenge you with their history.  K-drives were an unknown.  They all have separate part costs.  The most expensive and least expensive were found by the community to be statistically the same.  Hmmm... so their acceptable release is item one costs 3x more than 2...and to understand this you grind out the board, trade standing, build the boards...and learn that you wasted your time.  I didn't need to know 1 was different than 2 by 10%, but discovering they were the same after as all that grind was miserable.  This is why this is not "spoon feeding," but critical basics for understanding 

Do note, I have 0 stress over Lich weapon stats...so frame the discussion with that.

Finally for 2, there is no data.  That's the point.  If I knew a Lich was like a boss battle it'd be fine.  If it's like current railjack you grind the murmurs.  You grind a mission in railjack.  You then grind a boss battle.  That's more steps than now, despite them literally saying the system is being streamlined.  WTF?

 

Point 3...  What?  If you assume the thing works differently than all others, it is useful.  You mean, on top of being a wildcard it doesn't decay?  Then why not just make it two murmurs?  If I assume that Yaereli will make enemies explode into rare resources on kill she's also able to be assumed to be great.  Of course, this is all fantasy...so it's not a discussion.  On top of that, previous dev streams indicated it would be a normal requiem but function as a wild card...so the fantasy seems irrational on both our parts.

 

 

Point 4 is facile stupidity.  You are implying that cutting your grass with napalm is preferable to letting it overgrow.  There's a middle ground of using a lawn mower.  I want a grind that rewards.  This is a series of RNG time halts.  There is a difference.  To cite where DE did this right, focus schools.  You had a huge affinity grind, but were rewarded with real power.  I did all the grind of Liches...and use about 2 of their weapons.  That is a grind, with rewards so slim as to be insulting.  With DE's policy of releasing content under powered, tell me why these new multiple layer grinds will somehow reward differently.

 

Point 5....another facile argument.  I don't need or ask for all information.  I ask to know enough to gauge whether this is going to be a rewarding system, or basic Liches all over again.  

I also have issues with your DPS frame assumption.  With the spawns in the Granum area being a touch wonky solo, it'll be difficult for some frames to cope.  Elements link to frame, so some elements will be harder to get.  That's fine, but something that will limit choices or force meta.  When meta is the only choice for most players, this game is bad.  I want to know that DE conceives this as an issue, and has some balancing factor in place.  You know, the idea that they aren't going to release another Kuva Bramma, which literally lacked basic balance and became the only way to play for a lot of people.

 

Point 6...no.  A time gate is something you are forced to wait for, like a build time.  That is an issue in the dojo, but you missed the whole picture.  You get the frame...and have a whole new themed place for content.  It takes no brain power to see DE is setting up a place to theme modular archwing... and that is content.  I am enthusiastic about the potential of a new dojo area.  I criticize the new frame, but keep an open mind.  If you do not recognize potential, with a one time build cost, how are you still here?  A 23 hour wait for forma literally hundreds of times should have broken you by now....even if those forma are worth waiting for to make your favorite item stronger.

 

 

 

So...I think the difference in opinion here is largely you projecting a strawman onto the opposing argument.  It might be worth listening to the other side.  You have rational arguments, and expressed them well.  Thank you for that.

 

With that offered, I cannot buy your premises.  While they come from a reasonable place, they miss a lot of fine nuance, and selectively ignore the established modus operandi of DE.

Please don't be afraid to demand data.  Often DE makes stupid assumptions.  Leaving figuring things out to players is the same "mystery box" that killed Star Wars, Star Trek, Lost, and anything that director touches.  If we let DE do the same don't be surprised when we see more systems that hit 3.0 revisions in less years.

 

Remember, there are still videos out there of a railjack being summoned to Fortuna, picking up tennos, breaching atmosphere, engaging an enemy ship that is shielded, contacting a ground crew to destroy a ground installation on the plains, then obliterating it.  We, as a community ate that crap up.  Years later we have....Scarlet Spear.  That's the price of not calling shenanigans.

1. While i do agree, that they did not specifically say HOW they would buff guns, the new mods and arcanes are a buff, albeit one that is not achieved by touching the weapon stats directly.

2. The 1/6 chance is pretty irrelevant, because in practice, the goal is not to guess them correctly without using any previously gathered information.

If they say that the system will be more streamlined, it probably will be. From what they have told us so far, it seems like we will hunt the liches the same way as we do now, but the murmur progress goes faster and we have a wildcard. As soon as we have the requiems placed correctly, we have to play one extra mission to defeat the lich, instead of defeating it right as we figure out the full sequence. It is one extra step, but if the overall process is faster, who cares rly?

3. I did not assume or say anything about the wildcard that would be any different from the requiem mods we currently have (aside from the added wildcard function ofc). Requiem mods currently do not decay unless you have them equipped when actually defeating the lich. If that is the case for the wildcard requiem as well, it is definitely useful. Once you have all three Requiems unveiled, the wildcard becomes useless anyway, so if the wildcard decays in the same way that normal requiem mods do, using it correctly will result in no wildcard decay at all (unless you accidentally guess the full sequence right away, but you might as well leave the third slot empty on purpose to avoid this).

4. I would not mind if there was no RNG to obtaining the new voidstorm holokey currency, but aside from that...

There is no mention of RNG being or not being a factor in obtaining holokeys. There is no mention of these weapons needing to be upgraded to have max bonus elemental dmg. You are already complaining about multiple layers of RNG, none of which we even know to exist.

5. You can not possibly have a problem with "my DPS frame assumption" because I did not make a DPS frame assumption. You said this:

vor 7 Stunden schrieb master_of_destiny:

How difficult will it be to do the Granum Void with frames that aren't DPS focused? 

And I simply stated that you can run the granum void without a DPS frame right now, if you want to. 

There are no mentions of the granum void being changed, so your question is pointless.
You keep talking about things that will be and will happen and how those things will be bad, instead of just spending 3 minutes of your time and answering the question for yourself.
Nobody can tell you, if it is difficult for you personally. Just enter the granum void without a DPS frame and have a look.

6. So... I say this about the new lab dojo room (dojo rooms usually take time to build) with new Yareli part blueprints (dojo lab blueprints usually take time to research)

vor 5 Stunden schrieb BunnyHunny94:

this is basically a time gate in its purest form, for the acquisition of Yareli.

and your answer was

vor 2 Stunden schrieb master_of_destiny:

no.  A time gate is something you are forced to wait for, like a build time.

Soooo... A time gate is something you are forced to wait for, like a build time. But waiting for the dojo room to build and then waiting for blueprint research is not a time gate? Ok. Thanks for clearing this up.



And after all this (especially your answers to 5. and 6.), you tell me that i am projecting a strawman onto you?

[BunnyHunny94]

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb MistressMoonpaw:

I totally love the idea of "Arcane Slot Unlockers", arcane slots used to be free but no, youll have to grind for that, for the rest of your warframe life (which will probably end when this abomination of a mainline patch gets released).

Whenever any new primary or secondary will be released youll have to grind for that stupid thing again, and again, and again.

Because its either that or youll simply miss out on a large portion of potential dps.

This will kill the game. Adding more and more "perma-grind" to the game.

Instead of good and quality (= not riddled with tons of bugs) content, we get a grindfest. Amazing

Oh nooo. ≈15 entire minutes of grind for an arcane slot unlock.

Oh nooo. We can not possibly accumulate any steel essence, before a new weapon is released. We will definitely have 0 SE every time a new weapon is released and then we have to go back to the excruciating 15 minute grind.

 

Do you fully forma every single new weapon that is released?
-->If not, why would you complain about having to farm new arcane slot unlocks for all of them? Forma and Catalyst have a greater impact.
-->If yes, do you also complain like this, when it comes to farming/buying forma, applying forma and having to spend 15 minutes, leveling up your weapon a few more times?

[MistressMoonpaw]

7 minutes ago, BunnyHunny94 said:

 

Oh nooo. ≈15 entire minutes of grind for an arcane slot unlock.

Oh nooo. We can not possibly accumulate any steel essence, before a new weapon is released. We will definitely have 0 SE every time a new weapon is released and then we have to go back to the excruciating 15 minute grind.

Do you also complain like this, when it comes to applying forma and having to spend 15 minutes, leveling up your weapon a few more times?

a single forma takes 23 hours to build, just saying. The main issue is that steel path isnt fun and no one wants to play it. Theres hardly an incentive to. But sure, fanboy along as DE makes this game worse and worse. Youre probably the first to yell "Its not a bug its a feature!" when DE releases tons of game breaking bugs again or adds tons of unnecessary grind: "Its not that bad. Grind is what makes warframe fun!"

[BunnyHunny94]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb MistressMoonpaw:

a single forma takes 23 hours to build, just saying. The main issue is that steel path isnt fun and no one wants to play it. Theres hardly an incentive to. But sure, fanboy along as DE makes this game worse and worse. Youre probably the first to yell "Its not a bug its a feature!" when DE releases tons of game breaking bugs again or adds tons of unnecessary grind: "Its not that bad. Grind is what makes warframe fun!"

Let me correct you there: You do not want to play it.
Also, if you do not like grind, you should definitely play SP because higher drop rates...

 

Also also, pls re read my previous comment. I added something.

[TheLexiConArtist]

40 minutes ago, BunnyHunny94 said:

Do you fully forma every single new weapon that is released?
-->If not, why would you complain about having to farm new arcane slot unlocks for all of them? Forma and Catalyst have a greater impact.
-->If yes, do you also complain like this, when it comes to farming/buying forma, applying forma and having to spend 15 minutes, leveling up your weapon a few more times?

I have no problem with the Arcane unlockers (because I do incursions on the regular) but this is a bit of a false dichotomy. There are reasons a player might not "fully forma" (undesirable build-locking) or Catalyse (accessibility thereof) every new weapon, while an Arcane slot is usually more-or-less as transferable between items as a mod slot.

But you're right that the individual investment time for essence to buy an unlocker is pretty trivial. Three incursions (not even with the acolytes) is hardly an obstacle unless it rolls multiple defense missions mysteriously doesn't give me five Incursions to choose from due to some odd bug I keep encountering.

 

[BunnyHunny94]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb TheLexiConArtist:

I have no problem with the Arcane unlockers (because I do incursions on the regular) but this is a bit of a false dichotomy. There are reasons a player might not "fully forma" (undesirable build-locking) or Catalyse (accessibility thereof) every new weapon, while an Arcane slot is usually more-or-less as transferable between items as a mod slot.

But you're right that the individual investment time for essence to buy an unlocker is pretty trivial. Three incursions (not even with the acolytes) is hardly an obstacle unless it rolls multiple defense missions mysteriously doesn't give me five Incursions to choose from due to some odd bug I keep encountering.

 

Fully forma as in "forma as much as needed to fit the desired mods". 

[CloudStrife91]

2 hours ago, MistressMoonpaw said:

a single forma takes 23 hours to build, just saying. The main issue is that steel path isnt fun and no one wants to play it. Theres hardly an incentive to. But sure, fanboy along as DE makes this game worse and worse. Youre probably the first to yell "Its not a bug its a feature!" when DE releases tons of game breaking bugs again or adds tons of unnecessary grind: "Its not that bad. Grind is what makes warframe fun!"

Um says guy that most likely has never touched steel path not saying you haven’t just saying your possibly one of them? Anyway I beg to differ just because you may not like steel path doesn’t mean others don’t and personally I #*!%ing love steel path rewards be damned it gives me an incentive to test and try different builds and with the upcoming rewards and the existing rewards and changes to primary and secondary I now have more excuses to play steel path than I did when it first came out and I still played it a metric shot ton then too

[CloudStrife91]

On 2021-07-01 at 2:19 AM, S1mplyFresh said:

Kinda sucks that 95% (or more?) of players want Waframe to just be some casual "kill everything, no skill or thinking required" type of game. Any time DE plans or releases an update that shakes up the meta or encourages more theory-crafting, I get excited, and it actually makes me want to play Warframe.

But nah, the moment DE releases anything that requires more brain function, skill, and theory-crafting, many of you pull out the pitch forks.

Now I know why we'll ever get TRUE endgame in Warframe. If you're all complaining about these negligible Melee (balance) changes, then there's really no hope for a bigger and better Warfame.

 

Not to mention that every time people pull out those forks they forget how to poke with them and then end up playing anyway after saying and I quote “I quit” also might be the reason we can’t have nice things

[master_of_destiny]

3 hours ago, BunnyHunny94 said:

1. While i do agree, that they did not specifically say HOW they would buff guns, the new mods and arcanes are a buff, albeit one that is not achieved by touching the weapon stats directly.

2. The 1/6 chance is pretty irrelevant, because in practice, the goal is not to guess them correctly without using any previously gathered information.

If they say that the system will be more streamlined, it probably will be. From what they have told us so far, it seems like we will hunt the liches the same way as we do now, but the murmur progress goes faster and we have a wildcard. As soon as we have the requiems placed correctly, we have to play one extra mission to defeat the lich, instead of defeating it right as we figure out the full sequence. It is one extra step, but if the overall process is faster, who cares rly?

3. I did not assume or say anything about the wildcard that would be any different from the requiem mods we currently have (aside from the added wildcard function ofc). Requiem mods currently do not decay unless you have them equipped when actually defeating the lich. If that is the case for the wildcard requiem as well, it is definitely useful. Once you have all three Requiems unveiled, the wildcard becomes useless anyway, so if the wildcard decays in the same way that normal requiem mods do, using it correctly will result in no wildcard decay at all (unless you accidentally guess the full sequence right away, but you might as well leave the third slot empty on purpose to avoid this).

4. I would not mind if there was no RNG to obtaining the new voidstorm holokey currency, but aside from that...

There is no mention of RNG being or not being a factor in obtaining holokeys. There is no mention of these weapons needing to be upgraded to have max bonus elemental dmg. You are already complaining about multiple layers of RNG, none of which we even know to exist.

5. You can not possibly have a problem with "my DPS frame assumption" because I did not make a DPS frame assumption. You said this:

And I simply stated that you can run the granum void without a DPS frame right now, if you want to. 

There are no mentions of the granum void being changed, so your question is pointless.
You keep talking about things that will be and will happen and how those things will be bad, instead of just spending 3 minutes of your time and answering the question for yourself.
Nobody can tell you, if it is difficult for you personally. Just enter the granum void without a DPS frame and have a look.

6. So... I say this about the new lab dojo room (dojo rooms usually take time to build) with new Yareli part blueprints (dojo lab blueprints usually take time to research)

and your answer was

Soooo... A time gate is something you are forced to wait for, like a build time. But waiting for the dojo room to build and then waiting for blueprint research is not a time gate? Ok. Thanks for clearing this up.



And after all this (especially your answers to 5. and 6.), you tell me that i am projecting a strawman onto you?

1) Agree to disagree.

 

2) No, it isn't.  The topic was grind.  The topic was RNG.

You can argue all day about how you could minimize that, but it doesn't negate the core RNG roll that is forced upon the players as a "feature."  A feature that requires a grind, and rewards you with a 5 in 6 failure rate with literally no reason except "I didn't guess right."

 

Regarding the illusive explanation of streamlining...and your apparent desire to make it a word with no meaning, let me explain.  To streamline is to remove non-necessary bits.  This is paraphrasing a dictionary definition.  If you add more bits, by definition, you cannot streamline.  This is not up for debate, unless step one is assuming you can redefine words.  If we have to start there, I cannot waste time on you.  The reward for this exercise will be to strip one argument of its teeth, and in its place will be a thousand more people who want their own lexicon.  No.

 

3) This is what we call double think.  You either imagined that the requiem mods are a time limited consumable, or you presume their benefit is that they don't disappear at all.  Both are fundamentally altering the provided information...so it really doesn't matter.  I'm not discussing this further, because you are incapable of understanding that this is 100% a situation of your fabrication and I already stated my point that it's just another one.  It isn't as good as you'd assume because the order still matters.  People are inherently bad at math, and DE is selling us on this new shiny thing, because most people will assume it is a gift.

I also love the second world war.  Not for the fighting, but the complete bonkers stories.  In German gift means poison.  The US stamped "A gift from America" on the aide boxes.  My professor looked at us, explained this, and I could only laugh.  This is why good intentions are not enough, and arguing with people willing to redefine our lexicon is a useless argument.  They win by corrupting and rejecting meaning.  There's no way a good faith argument can ever be heard by them.

 

4) Read again.  

Although Void Storms remain as dangerous as ever, they now offer up exciting new Rewards: Corrupted Holokeys! Collect these valuable Corpus artifacts, bring them to Ergo Glast at any Relay and trade for new Tenet briefcase Melee Weapons, complete with bonus elemental damage! One of four Tenet Melee Weapons will be available each week in Glast’s rotation, so check back regularly with a fresh stash of Holokeys:

Confront Liches faster in three new ways: a streamlined Murmur system that identifies known Requiems faster; Oull — a Requiem Mod dropped exclusively from Liches that counts as a known Requiem no matter where it’s slotted on your Parazon; and the new Requiem Ultimatum — a Gear item that can be used on any influence node to summon your Lich or Sister for a fight on your terms.

 

I'm going to give you credit, and assume you are capable of reading.  Note that it says elemental bonus damage.  It is reasonable to assume either magical 60% maximum values...or more likely that you'll have to check back regularly to get a weapon+element combo that is desirable.  Of course, the alternative is everyone out there wants gas damage melee weapons...so yeah.

Likewise, streamline and faster.  They indicate Oull is exactly like a regular requiem mod.  This is right on the front page...but I figure maybe highlighting them might help.

 

5) You...are...dense...on...this.

Go back, watch dev stream.  Come back.

THE DEV STREAM STATED YOU START THE CORPUS LICHES BY FINISHING AT LEAST THE FIRST ROUND IN THE GRANUM VOID, THEN KILLING THE SPAWNED PARVOS THING.  I have that in capitals...so you can maybe educate yourself.  I chalk this up to only paying attention to a fraction of the written words...and really hope that this isn't intentional negligence.  Whatever though, you've already demonstrated your point is based in fundamental ignorance.  I stated that a DPS frame was the choice to do Granum Void.  Not all frames are DPS.  You stated there were DPS frames so the argument means nothing.  You then quoted me to me without the subsequent argument.

I'd scratch my head, but the blatant misunderstanding shows your ignorance.  As such, I will not speak on this until you either educate yourself, or otherwise bring something valuable to the table.

 

6) Please stop misquoting.

I said the most interesting bit about this update was the new frame that was three years too late to the k-drive party.

Your retort was surprise after my content gating comments that called this unreasonable were then praising content gating.

My response back was that the frame is immaterial.  The interesting bit was about the dojo lab.

You then try to partially quote back to me.

Good try, but before you do maybe you should consider the argument.  If each bit was devoid of context this makes sense.  Unfortunately, when you frame it your criticism is laughable.  Points for effort on replication of using my words to tear me down with internal inconsistency.  Points lost for obfuscation of context which makes the partial quotes seem like a dishonest strawman being constructed.

 

 

Yes...you are projecting a strawman.  You want to claim that I don't have a good answer, because you perceive inconsistency.  Great.  Valid tactic to establish that an opposing point is irrational.  The strawman is then quoting bits and pieces, leaving out the full story.  It's easy to fight that kind of strawman.  Without context a long running discussion is easy to hijack, and it's easy to attack only partial bits of the argument and look like you've "won."  

You'll note I don't do this for you.  When you claim that it was really only 4 tries, I explained that this is true on paper, but it doesn't influence the first RNG combination I cited.  If I wanted to strawman you I'd suggest that this was idiotic.  If your core conceit is that it only takes 4 tries demonstrate three consecutive runs with your Lich only reaching level 4.  Note that is 1-2 (first kill) - 3 (second kill) - 4 (third kill), and because you always get the combination in 4 or less the Lich should never get to level 5.  Do it.  

You know why I didn't?  It's a matter of respect, and not caring about an argument that doesn't matter.  Because of the way the Lich spawns work you are virtually guaranteed to get to level 5 by how the Lich can auto-level before you are anywhere getting a full murmur known.  There are plenty of exceptions, but getting these exceptions 3 times in a row negates their random roll nature.  Despite this, I didn't call you out on an argument that counters your own, despite it being trivial to ignore everything else you said.

 

 

In turn, I have to re-quote myself, so you don't skew my points to something else.

Maybe I was right before.  OK.  I'm done.  Have the last word, because I no longer believe you are a good faith actor.  I hate it when I get proven right, when assuming the worst of people. 

 

-Edit-

I've read through your discourse with MistressMoonPaw.  Yeah...  Bad faith actor through and through.

Point 1 - Use the multiquote and edit functions.  Spamming multiple responses to one quote is...just not good form.

Point 2 - Facts.  DE has not announced a new spawn rate for Acolytes.  They have not announced the cost of the arcane slot unlocks on an official post or stream.  Despite knowing nothing, you pull 15 minutes directly from your backside.  I cannot even imagine why you justify this...but assume the arrogance is the core issue.

Point 3 - Again, the absolutism.  There are about 400 weapons in game.  People only complain if they keep 100% of them and fully upgrade 100%.  It must be fantastic to live in your head where there is only black and white.  Let's introduce Grey.  8 forma'd slots on my Opticor.  A riven.  A catalyst.  Despite this, I didn't buy it a Pexilus slot.  Am I not experiencing the full potential?  Well...that's stupid.  I have not upgraded "fully" because even with all slots polarized there isn't enough capacity to apply any more mods.  Seems like you don't fully understand this as a cost to reward equation, and some people are frustrated because the rewards here are slight, and the cost is engaging with a game mode that isn't fun for most people.  It's almost like when DE rebalanced enemy scaling they did good...and Steel Path basically undid this...which was fine when engagement with it was optional, but now it's required for power.  Things required for power, in a power fantasy game, by definition are no longer optional.

 

So....definitely hard stop.  Going forward I'm going to just not engage with you.  Best of luck.

 

-Edit end-