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Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide


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8 minutes ago, DraekoSilver said:

You are nerfing the Kestrel?!

I am sorry? Did I read that right? What the hell do you think the kestrel needs a nerf?

Look, DE had to stop the rampant kestrel meta! Same as with the Korrudo "fix" and all those AoE weapons without self damage that nobody was already using (or even remembering their name) finally getting what was coming to them!

Edited by RoadCrewWorker
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Well this showed me that DE went with their tried and true nerf whats good so whats bad will look better. I dont know what you are thinking if you can go and say you feel that gun stats are in a good place, 80% of guns and if Im honest probably 90% will never be viable no matter how many mods you put on them. Since you tend to forget let me tell you a story.

Not so long ago there were melee weapons, melee weapons that much like guns now were bad and around 20%-30% of all melee weapons were used, and then came along a rework, a rework that not only changed how their stats and mods worked but also, and heres the most important part BUFFED their BASE stats and then even the worst of the melee weapons that were never used became at the very least good and usable.

I really dont know why its so hard to do the same with guns as its something thats already been done once, and if you honestly think gun stats are in a good place, I think you're wrong. Just look at some of your older guns stats and ask yourselves will a couple of mods really make guns like the harpak/stug/flux rifle/dera at least viable if not good. I am sorry if this comes off as heated I just hate to see something with potential not realise it.

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2 часа назад, [DE]Rebecca сказал:

These will be available from Teshin’s Steel Path Honors. 

I'd like to point out that adding more grind on top of already very grindy game is nothing more but an extremely lazy way of making "content".

And before anyone asks, nerfing melee makes this grind even longer.

 

Anyway, I won't be sharing all my thought on the upcoming changes - I'm salty and really disappointed. This is not "bringing ranged weapons to the level of melee weapons" thing we were all expecting. This is "nerfing melee weapons so that we can add some lazily made "content" and make ranged weapons look good in comparison".

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On paper I really like a lot of what I'm seeing, I'm excited to start building more on weapons I was done with. And I really enjoy that the steel path shop is going to offer more to our arsenal. Thank you DE for all your hard work!

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2 часа назад, [DE]Rebecca сказал:

Because the Gunplay falloff is more of a late-game problem

What do you mean late-game? Regular steel path runs? Firearms have no problems there. Firearm problems reveals themselves on endurance runs. To get a buff, you need to kill mobs, to kill mobs, you need a buff. Infinity loop of uselessness. Don't you think so??? It can't be used even on REGULAR sp boss runs. Just change the trigger from kill to hit. Your version doesn't compare to melee at all, not even the nerfed one. You lose the buff between kills and can't even fix it with naramon.

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7 minutes ago, Lus4812 said:

Well this showed me that DE went with their tried and true nerf whats good so whats bad will look better. I dont know what you are thinking if you can go and say you feel that gun stats are in a good place, 80% of guns and if Im honest probably 90% will never be viable no matter how many mods you put on them. Since you tend to forget let me tell you a story. Not so long ago there were melee weapons, melee weapons that much like guns now were bad and around 20%-30% of all melee weapons were used, and then came along a rework, a rework that not only changed how their stats and mods worked but also, and heres the most important part BUFFED their BASE stats and then even the worst of the melee weapons that were never used became at the very least good and usable. I really dont know why its so hard to do the same with guns as its something thats already been done once, and if you honestly think gun stats are in a good place, you either dont play your game or just dont want to take the time and rework them. Just look at some of your older guns stats and ask yourselves will a couple of mods really make guns like the harpak/stug/flux rifle/dera at least viable if not good. I am sorry if this comes off as heated I just hate to see something with potential not realise it.

They never said they wanted *all* gun to be meta. If any guns are meta, they'll already consider it a win, which is something this workshop really seems to achieve. 

Edited by BalaDeSilver
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that wording strongly implies that Condition Overload will be capped to 3 Status Effects.
we very explicitly said again and again that capping it to 3 would change it from one of the most engaging Mods in the game, to just as zero engaging as Serration is. just flail at the Enemy and you'll cap the Mod, no thinking of synergy needed.

 

Berserker is popular because of how many Melee Classes and/or Stances that Players feel like are slow, cumbersome, and overall non-responsive to use without stacking a lot of Attack Speed. 
and just like always, the amount of Attack Speed someone personally finds necessary for a Melee Weapon to feel good, is one of the most subjective things in the game.
it's like telling people they aren't allowed to like certain Weapons.
there's some Melee types that i don't think feel good without like, triple their base Attack Speed.

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Alright, Here we go...

Now this is my only perspective and i rarely use public... so i would say this as a solo player. Now, I want to comment on the buff first (because nerfs is always bad in perspective), to be honest? ARCANE? WHY??? First of all, they need to be farmed first, and for me steel path is always my nightmare because i don't enjoy having 30 seconds melee kill (and i wonder how long with this new update). How do i farm them solo? Am i able to use melee weapon if i don't have them? Really??? (if you guys said, just use public, you are missing the point)

for this, my only obvious way is to (like your nerf) just buff the overall damage mod, or dual stat mods. Why these guys are not buffed but you guys nerfed the damage increasing mod for melee? It doesn't make any sense at all. You guys want the new player that just start steel path to enjoy it right? 

Second, if I saw them, all of them are ON KILL, like... WHAT? so, i need to enjoy like 30 seconds of meleeing first and then i can use my primary or secondary later? and i need to build up also for secondary? I mean, how come? this is for steel path right? they have the 200% armor buff, and else... like how?

I guess you can get my point

Second the nerfs, POOR NUKOR, and the reasoning is so weak that yeah we just need to reduce the chaining to just 2 people, it is not chaining, it's linking... you guys have scrap the concept to the gun itself... the other mods? I don't know, I just annoyed by using melee just for the steel path (which is the reason of this dev workshop) but after seeing those, I really don't want to do steel path... I literally don't care if you guys put greatest mod and arcane on steel path anymore.

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Just now, Petroklos said:

Condition Overload won't be worse than Primed Pressure Point, and it's obviously not what they intend.

Current Condition Overload vs Primed Pressure Point:

  • No Status Effects: 0% vs 165%
  • One Status Effect: 120% vs 165%
  • Two Status Effects: 240% vs 165%, CO is already better.

Proposed Condition Overload vs Primed Pressure Point:

  • No Status Effects: 0% vs 165%
  • One Status Effect: 80% vs 165%
  • Two Status Effects: 160% vs 165%, CO is insignificantly worse, a total Damage Loss of (1 + .8*2) / (1 + 1.65) = 2.6/2.65 = 98%, 2% Damage Loss.
  • Three Status Effects: 240% vs 165%, and CO is in the lead again.

Adding to this how ridiculously easy it is to stack Status Effects on Enemies, 1+ IPS and 1+ Elemental from your Melee, plus 1+ IPS and 1+ Elemental from your Primer Gun, reaching 2 Status Effects, aka equal to PPP, is guaranteed and scaling beyond that is still extremely easy.

CO will remain the defacto Damage Mod for any Endless, Steel Path, Level Cap, etc styled Mission, every Status Melee, most Hybrid Melees, all Hybrid Melees with Weeping Wounds and even some Crit Melees with Weeping Wounds.

The issue comes with CO *already* being a trade off. You have to spend time priming enemies, which is a dps loss. If you are *just* using melee, you have to mod for at least three statuses to proc at a reasonable rate on your melee, which is awkward. Does it still have a better top end for extremely high-end content? Yes, but only because you're forced to hit enemies many times anyway, and the initial lower damage is less important since you *need* the ramped damage to get work done anyway. For anything *BUT* the most high tier missions, it will almost never be worth using over PPP.

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1 minute ago, 1597 said:

What do you mean late-game? Regular steel path runs? Firearms have no problems there. Firearm problems reveals themselves on endurance runs. To get a buff, you need to kill mobs, to kill mobs, you need a buff. Infinity loop of uselessness. Don't you think so??? It can't be used even on REGULAR sp boss runs. Just change the trigger from kill to hit. Your version doesn't compare to melee at all, not even the nerfed one. You lose the buff between kills and can't even fix it with naramon.

I can count in one hand how many firearms are viable for steel path without a Riven. Including primaries and secondaries. 

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So DE's solution to making end-game gunplay better, is to make people grind out end-game with subpar gunplay?

This just raises the barrier for gunplay into end-game content instead of lowering it (which I assume is the intent), if I have to spend several hours to kill a bunch of rare spawn enemies just to afford one mod to make my experience better, why would I do that instead of just not progressing into steel path?

The amount of mastery points you get from steel path nodes are minimal at best, so that's not much of a reason to tear my hair out over the skill curve, the rewards you currently get from honours aren't really worth the time investment.

There's really no point to grinding out for these new Galvanised Mods, Condition Overload drops from a multitude of enemies you can find in regular star chart, so why are the new mods hidden behind Steel Path? The core issue of the divide is that there is no base-game equivalent to Condition Overload, Berserker etc for Primary/Secondary weapons, as much as the incentive to get these new mods is nice, it doesn't address the core divide in the regular star chart.

I reccomend adding in addition to these changes a few mods that can be dropped from regular enemies to balance out the divide instead of having to grind steel path for specialised arcanes and mods, like so:

- (Primary) Condition Critical: 80% Damage per Status Type affecting the target.

- (Secondary) Condition Surcharge: 80% Damage per Status Type affecting the target.

- (Primary) Frenzied Fury: +35% Fire Rate (Max 70%)  for 10s. Stacks up to 2x. 

- (Secondary) Crazed Fury: +35% Fire Rate (Max 70%)  for 10s. Stacks up to 2x. 

There is no Primary/Secondary alternative for Blood Rush are there is no Combo Counter/Multiplier for these, you'd have to do something like this:

- (Primary) Plasma Rush: On Kill: +40% Critical Chance stacks up to 12x

- (Secondary) Ichor Rush: On Kill: +40% Critical Chance stacks up to 12x

You can then add the coming Primary/Secondary Arcanes around this, the Galvanised Mods would be an upgrade for people who want to get them from the Steel Path, and the core divide would be lessened somewhat because there are Primary/Secondary Alternatives with my suggestion.

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Just now, MasterControl said:

The issue comes with CO *already* being a trade off. You have to spend time priming enemies, which is a dps loss. If you are *just* using melee, you have to mod for at least three statuses to proc at a reasonable rate on your melee, which is awkward. Does it still have a better top end for extremely high-end content? Yes, but only because you're forced to hit enemies many times anyway, and the initial lower damage is less important since you *need* the ramped damage to get work done anyway. For anything *BUT* the most high tier missions, it will almost never be worth using over PPP.

So PPP has its place in Mid Level Missions and CO retains its place in High Level Missions and with Melees of Low Damage but High Attack Speed, or Low Crit but High Status in all Missions. How is that a problem.

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The ON KILL trigger makes everything boring and in most places, useless.

If you dont have enough damage, you cant kill, so you cant trigger this new things.

Endless loop.

If you change those thing to Disable a few seconds ON KILL, i believe it will be much better.

Edited by ReasonX
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I somewhat like the concept until I realize that this is going to hurt the experience for anyone trying to reach endgame of any kind. You're nerfing mods for melee weapons that most players can get somewhat normally in exchange for introducing new ways to buff your gunplay. But all those "gunplay buffs" require you to be a endgame player with access to steel path and to have plenty of time to devote to farming them.

 

Isn't that the opposite of what you're trying to do? If the mods are lacking for guns then make some that are accessible outside of steel path too. Otherwise these changes will only work to dissuade players making that push from mid-game to endgame because it'll effectively nerf what they already have but offer nothing in return for quite some time.

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The more i think about "much needed" buffs being conditionally gated behind having to kill things the funnier it gets. It feels like someone inverted a + or - sign accidentally.

I'm trying to see an approach where that made perfect sense and there must be something that wasn't communicated or the dev build this was tested with is very different from the game everyone else has been playing.

Edited by RoadCrewWorker
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