Jump to content

Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide


Recommended Posts

I didn't notice the melee changes (mostly because I don't use berserker, and I always use Sac Steel together with Blood Rush) other than maybe it took slightly longer to reach red crits. 

C.O. actually deals more damage now, with proper status setups (and warframes that also play into adding more status procs)

I absolutely love the shotgun galvanized mods, and THANK YOU for critical delay. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-06-30 at 9:11 PM, -Augustus- said:

A lot about this nerf-fest is badly considered, but what are you smoking? This takes away a whopping 24% of damage (3rd and 4th changed targets receive ~18% and ~6% of main target damage), and is primarily just a nerf to its CO utility role. Even my crappy not-near-60% magnetic KNukor with a pure status-spreading build (no riven, no CC/CD mods, no hornetstrike, no bane mod) still absolutely melts SP grineer up to about level 200 before I even get a chance to melee them. Flipping to a more balanced build means less CO utility but effective mass murder for another hour or so into SP. There's no better secondary weapon in the game now, and there still won't be after this annoying nerf. 

I was using the recommended build for nukor and it was nowhere near that powerful. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To do high level content with guns you need to rely on slash procs to kill enemies. In Steel Path missions your raw damage makes up at most a few percent of the damage that you deal, this makes proccing Galvanized Scope and Galvanized Crosshair's on headshot kill bonus almost impossible. If you change the proc requirement to on kill or on headshot instead of on headshot kill then it'll actually be feasible to proc those bonuses when you're playing Steel Path missions.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel like DE is missing the fact that infinitely-swingable melee weapons (especially the ones with more appreciable range, or high riven disposition to achieve the same) will almost always take less precision (aka is more rewarding for the effort put in) to utilize to clear groups/rooms of enemies than any single-target weaponry (like sniper rifles or any other non-automatic, non-AoE weaponry, whether gun OR melee).
 

Elaborating (and meandering) further in this spoiler -

Spoiler

Before players even get to Steel Path or Arbitrations, weapons that have limited ammo and/or limited multi-kill potential should have better baseline DPS than weapons that have one or the other, or both. Melee can universally be used infinitely (no ammo), can hit multiple opponents (Reach/Follow-through), and has innate built-in dedicated-use-scaling rewards (combo system).

This is a problem/disparity both between Melee and Guns, and but it's also been worsened between the different Guns as well. When looking at the Weapon Comparison page on the Wiki, it doesn't make sense that a bunch of the highest base-damage weapons in the game are also the ones that do multi-target and/or critical and/or status-based damage! Or for the Tenet/Kuva weapons to be capable of easily installing all of the most costly, effective DPS-multiplicative mods in the game without issue, while having such a significantly baseline-better damage output than their non-king/queen-pin variants.

It makes sense for status and/or crit procs to be impactful on the game. What doesn't make sense is for base damage to be barely a consideration for weapons.

I'm significantly convinced that to bridge the divide between the different guns, base damage needs to be made competitive by making crits and and elements scale only off of base un-modded weapon damage, and making multishot divide and cumulatively average crit/status chance across pellets, rather than multiplying across them. This would allow DE to rebalance/increase base damage of weapons, and base damage mods, without having to worry about the most meta builds exponentially stacking damage to ludicrous degrees.

Of course, then they would need to rebalance guns against melee again, but I know I'm tired of interesting single-target semi-automatic weapons being leagues inferior to AoE or chaining weapons, and melee honestly needs a pass again with the same lens, everyone still uses whips, whipswords, polearms, or greatswords, overwhelmingly, as currently fists/sparring/fans are all substantially underwhelming compared to other classes.

DE, everything needs to be assessed and rated as either something that's intended to be superceded/surpassed by something else, or made to be competitive. Having entire weapon classes, or entire equipment types, or entire damage types, or entire Warframes, be utterly accepted by a bulk of players as the only option players should utilize, is boring for build diversity and having players feel like they can equally contribute to the squad's efforts. imo, the damage and modding systems need a fundamental overhaul, so that with a firm foundation, the weapons can be balanced on top of that.

Why is Puncture still the worst physical status proc? Why are Viral, Corrosive, Heat, and Toxin still overwhelmingly the best elemental procs? Why is Impact only going to be chosen in order to improve ease of Parazon Mercy Finishers? Why does the game punish me with ridiculous amounts less of DPS if I don't choose a high status and/or high crit chance weapon? Why does the game punish me with revoking HALF of my potential DPS just by trading 1 of the 8 meta damage mods for a QoL or gameplay-specializing mod? Why is Archwing so much better than using a K Drive? Why can we use Necramechs in standard tiles, but not K Drives? Why are we allowed to use Sentinel weapons as set-mod stat sticks, instead of making them compelling enough to use on the weapon directly? Outside of Vaykor Sydon and the Ack and Brunt, when is it supposed to be effective to use "Focused Defense", "Parry", or "Guardian Derision", rather than simply cutting or gunning an enemy down?

Honestly, unironically/unsarcastically? Good on you, DE, for (mildly) reducing the efficacy of the most meta mods being used on Melee, making guns marginally more competitive by comparison.
But even with Galvanized mods, I'm still not seeing guns competing with Melee, other than the AoE ones that were already, and now even more-so, the meta, such as Bramma.

I know my post meandered, but I feel like a lot of these questions and observations in the spoiler need to be made/asked seriously by DE staff, in order for their game's foundation to be solid, so that ALL of the weapons in their marketplace are worth players (new and old) buying for platinum. With Monetization/Profit being one of DE's priorities, I'm just flabbergasted that they don't try and make more of their market contents worth buying. Give me a reason to want to grind for -or when patience wears thin or wallet feels heavy, pay for- your content, rather than making it feel like we need to criticize the game every update due to incomplete tweaks to its foundation.

And dear word, PLEASE, use the test servers!
Perform risky experiments! Say "Hey, these changes may not even be put into the game, but do you wanna try seeing what it feels like if we increase the pellet-counts added by Multishot mods by 800% but make it divide damage, crits, and stat procs between them" and just have your staff play alongside some of the PTS players and compile feedback.
Please have some more dev workshops where you accept player feedback/criticisms of a specific under-performing/under-utilized Warframe's ability (or entire kit).

The updates where you've taken a risk and entirely shaken up how foundational things work, in pursuit of better gameplay and balance, have been great! The ones where you listened to player feedback to delay content until it was better were so greatly appreciated (nobody wanted to see Impact procs to become Blast on steroids). The melee rework that introduced dual-wielding and quick-weapon-switches and simpler melee combos were great! The damage update that made exclusively corrosive or viral-slash no longer the universal metas, were good (if incomplete, as Gas/Magnetic/Blast/Cold/Electricity/Puncture all kinda still feel like jokes)! Please, continue making all IPS/elemental procs competitive or at least okay in most circumstances, and great in 1 or 2 areas, and poor in 1 or 2 others!

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember when the kuva lich update dropped, the thing kept me playing was melee rework rather than the lich system (of course).

This time, the lich system is a less boring one to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • [DE]Rebecca unpinned this topic
  • 2 weeks later...
On 2021-06-18 at 11:26 AM, exturkconner said:

So...melee nerfs, kuva nukor nerfs, glaive nerfs. No actual secondary, or primary buffs? Well that's one way to handle it I guess. A terrible way, but one way.

I mean seriously you slash the effectiveness of peoples melee builds in half, you shift the meta off of Kuva Nukor (people will just use vermasplicer primary now you didn't actual fix anything) and you aren't going to toss them a bone and improve any of the bad things?

Vermasplicer was nerfed from 5 to 3.

The vermasplicer can't do head shots like the amprex , nukor, or any other weapon that chains to targets while those weapons can. The issues those weapons out deal it in damage. You went out of your way to nerf it like the nukor. At least you should have done 5 to 4 so can be distinct  or improved it in another way. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-08-19 at 6:46 AM, thats_rudiculous_07 said:

Vermasplicer was nerfed from 5 to 3.

The vermasplicer can't do head shots like the amprex , nukor, or any other weapon that chains to targets while those weapons can. The issues those weapons out deal it in damage. You went out of your way to nerf it like the nukor. At least you should have done 5 to 4 so can be distinct  or improved it in another way. 

 

Yes but that wasn't proposed yet when the post was made. I mean it does have a date on it  and all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-08-21 at 12:16 AM, exturkconner said:

Yes but that wasn't proposed yet when the post was made. I mean it does have a date on it  and all.

I think DE noticed your comment. Which was influence by the nerf on the nukor... Nobody has made a post about it so I did.

 

 

I want de to either improve the vermasplicer or change to allow head shots at least.

 

 

Edited by thats_rudiculous_07
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 weeks later...

I greatly respect the changes, at least as far as the melee mods themselves concern, but there is one galvanized mod I must speak up of. I figured the stacks disappearing simultaneously for galvanized scope was something intentional since galvanized scope was based on argon scope instead of impact point, who has a limit duration on the buff.

 

But, the thing is, past the added difficulty that aiming strictly for headshots brings, making all stacks dissapear simultaneously brings a considerable decrease of value for the mod, being than unlike all others you can't bring the buff from one room to the other so to speak, and you have a good chance that it won't even last you an entire fight, suddenly making it the worse choice of the pile in actual combat.

 

I would suggest this worked like the rest of the galvanized mods and the stacks remain dropping one at a time even when the argon scope buff disappears as it's duration demands, or otherwise remake this mod based on impact point to make it a balanced and viable choice that doesn't come with a player side skill requirement as it does right now. I say it purely for balance matters, but I admit that the headshot requirement added an extra step of excitement to using this mod specially with slower hitting weapons like a bow, but then again the buff dissipating so quickly for these weapons is a big price to pay.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...