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Stamina lol


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I posted this in response to the recent dev workshop, but replies there get buried easily, so here it is again.

I like the proposed ideas for melee and primary mods and arcanes, and also the kuva nukor nerf (as someone who owns one and an OP Riven for it), but there is a better solution to balancing the arsenal:

Add a stamina system for melee.

Currently, melee is the best class because it can be pumped with insane power and speed, but has no consequence for its use, unlike ranged weapons, which use ammunition or have to be charged before they are shot. Modding melee weapons in the meta is like adding every damage and fire rate mod to your twin grakatas and also buffing them so that they don't use any ammo and have zero recoil, and it will be the same after this update, but the power potential will be decreased. Overall, there is still going to be one class of weapons that is clearly better than the other classes in every loadout since melee weapons lack a niche. Since you don't have to sacrifice any resource to use melee weapons, their effectiveness is always at 100% or within a few seconds of reaching it, meaning that to "balance" melee using the current system, it is necessary to use blanket nerfs so that melee is less favorable compared to primary and secondary weapons. Using a regenerating stamina system for melee attacks (think Dark Souls but with a larger pool and slower recovery) solves the problem of melee power quite easily, and could even be implemented without modifying any existing mods or stances, apart from adding a stamina reduction value to each move. The presence of stamina would destroy the speed meta, which is the real source of overpowered melee spam, by forcing players to weigh attack speed and DPS against their stamina pool and recovery rate, allowing melee weapons to be modded for sustained DPS with shorter recovery, or a burst damage niche with long recovery times.

 

This sort of reminds me of the universal Vacuum controversy, where Scott initially proposed a very complex and convoluted solution in a Devstream regarding splitting vacuum into several parts, when the best, and eventually the chosen solution was much simpler and more effective: letting all sentinels use the existing Vacuum mod.

Edited 56 minutes ago by Valthryn

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no thanks.

while it might make melee a little more balanced,. it would come at the cost of a huge chunk of Warframe's identity: the melee combat is one of the main things that makes warframe unique compared to other games, without the melee and movement we'd basically be playing a more outlandish 3rd person Destiny. if the problem were this simple to solve, DE would already have done this, but in truth it solves nothing.

besides, the changes have already been outlined: buffing guns and nerfing some of the scaling Mele mods is the way DE have chosen to go about it, and for the most part it seems like it should work, on paper at least. we should still have powerful unlimited melees, but without them being too drastically ahead of guns. maybe DE's solution won't be perfect, but I'll take it over a forced Stamina system any day: magical space ninjas shouldn't be having to worry about Stamina, hence why it was removed the first time.

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The biggest divide between weapons IMO are based on Bleed, Critical Damage and AOE.

All weapons benefit equally from +%elemental damage, multi-shot and etc, but only certain weapons can proc Bleed and/or have good Crit stats.

Bleed becomes the uncontested proc as everything else gets comparatively worse as armor scales up and is exclusive to certain weapons.

Viable Critical Damage is straight up damage multiplier exclusive to certain weaponsHunter Munitions gives these weapons access to Bleed!

Only certain weapons get AOE.

Weapons with all these characteristics are the best, weapons without any of those 3 are strictly MR Fodder.

Of course, everything can use Viral, but Viral of course is multiplicative with the before mentioned 3 things.

If DE really wanted to narrow the gap between weapons, they need to address Bleed, Critical Damage and AOE.

My equally controversial suggestions:

1. Enemy armor doesn't scale. This makes Bleed in line with other DOTs. Non-scaling armor makes Gas a viable option for AOE for non-AOE weapons.

2. Viral procs and Critical damage made additive with Base Damage. So that crit-incapables and status incapables aren't literal multipliers behind other weapons.

3. +100% Flat Critical Chance on headshots instead of a separate multiplier. So precision weapons can forego Critical Chance to contrast with AOE weapons.

Edited by DealerOfAbsolutes
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Is it fun to run out of energy on railjack or having to break off to go to forge?

It's an obnoxious intrusion on the flow of the gameplay. Engaging, suspenseful, thrilling, amusing? What's the pitch. Cooldowns are an obsolete feature that belongs in something like 1998 everquest or similar zombie hotbar casting video games, when the network code couldn't handle animation skipping.

 

When you think about it, warframe's real problem is a lack of concept.

In a normal video game, you intuitively understand things like long range I yank out a sniper, room clearing I got mp5 or shotgun, because the game is built around it and supports a rock, paper, scissor concept. Meaningful trade-off is the problem.

Before you even draw the first vector mask in pre production, you design your concept.

 

Here is what pistol holds over rifles, here is the downside to using toxin or whatever and the game must support it.

When you look at a weapon like the bubonico, you get AOE, unlimited ammo, no reload time and splash damage through walls.

... or, you can use a lex prime.

What's wrong with that picture. Well, there is no trade-off, one weapon has all the advantages, the other has zero. You can't talk about weapons or frames or anything not being suited for the game, because there is no standard, there is no concept.

Can you explain the concept of pistols? Pistol is my go to when (...) because (...) in (...) situation. And that goes for everything melee when x, guns when y because z except when abc.

Melee is too strong for what? There is no what. No one layed that out yet. How hard is the game supposed to be, how fast should enemies die? Should you play it solo, in a squad? Should enemies scale to solo? What about being a ninja, aren't they stealth assassins?

These are all the questions you answer and turn into your concept... before you make the game, not 10 years down the road with some random nerfs in notepad singling out 2 random weapons.

 

Then on top of that, the gameplay supporting the trade-off's mechcanically, you must also tie it into the lore and in-game universe - would a futuristic space ninja be using a tiny handgun with 6 rounds? Probably not.

If you had a heavy exo suit with super-human strength, you'd logically be carrying a heavier weapon, more ammo, larger projectiles and so on.

As is, you get giant recoil on a a tiny litte handgun like the lex but you can be a marksman blind firering large AOE weapons based on radar...

 

So it's all the way back to square one, start with coming up with a base concept for the gameplay.

And then take some chances with the weapons, take advantage of the freedom you have working within the fantasy genre. Dual miniguns that fires exploding umbrellas, picking standard issue assualt rifles and pistols is just so tragically unambitious.

 

Edited by Surbusken
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Imagine suggesting something that has been tried - and failed before.

 

OP's argument said that melee won cuz gun reloads. So instead of bringing down melee to gun level, why not half reload times for all guns and/or double all ammo clips? That'll bring some guns to virtually infinite ammo.

Dark souls enthusiasts aside, buff will always more fun to play than nerf.

Edited by Soy77
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No to stamina bar.

 

5 minutes ago, Soy77 said:

Imagine suggesting something that has been tried - and failed before.

 

OP's argument said that melee won cuz gun reloads. So instead of bringing down melee to gun level, why not half reload times for all guns and/or double all ammo clips? That'll bring some guns to virtually infinite ammo.

 

I like that idea, solo in Steel Path with guns at times can be tedious, especially to reload a weapon with a 2.5 to 3 seconds, hell in that time the rest of the mob can be pounding on you if I don't see it coming or evade in time. lol

PBqnr.gif

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1 hour ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

The biggest divide between weapons IMO are based on Bleed, Critical Damage and AOE.

All weapons benefit equally from +%elemental damage, multi-shot and etc, but only certain weapons can proc Bleed and/or have good Crit stats.

Bleed becomes the uncontested proc as everything else gets comparatively worse as armor scales up and is exclusive to certain weapons.

Viable Critical Damage is straight up damage multiplier exclusive to certain weaponsHunter Munitions gives these weapons access to Bleed!

Only certain weapons get AOE.

Weapons with all these characteristics are the best, weapons without any of those 3 are strictly MR Fodder.

Of course, everything can use Viral, but Viral of course is multiplicative with the before mentioned 3 things.

If DE really wanted to narrow the gap between weapons, they need to address Bleed, Critical Damage and AOE.

My equally controversial suggestions:

1. Enemy armor doesn't scale. This makes Bleed in line with other DOTs. Non-scaling armor makes Gas a viable option for AOE for non-AOE weapons.

2. Viral procs and Critical damage made additive with Base Damage. So that crit-incapables and status incapables aren't literal multipliers behind other weapons.

3. +100% Flat Critical Chance on headshots instead of a separate multiplier. So precision weapons can forego Critical Chance to contrast with AOE weapons.

I like these suggestions , but i feel the state of the game is too far gone to make and accept these changes.

 

To the main topic :

a stamina bar (for melee only) may put a check on the power , and could actually work if it gets implemented properly.

How many swings before the bar is depleted ?if it's too few it won't work.

How will combo multipliers be impacted ? If it's too short to be able to build a combo multiplier reasonably it will take away a lot of the mod power.

will it also add another mod/resource layer? Like stamina orbs or stamina efficiency and stamina pool mods , 

this would be a lot of effort , and as has been observed too much effort means it will be avoided by the Devs.

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5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I like these suggestions , but i feel the state of the game is too far gone to make and accept these changes.

 

To the main topic :

a stamina bar (for melee only) may put a check on the power , and could actually work if it gets implemented properly.

How many swings before the bar is depleted ?if it's too few it won't work.

How will combo multipliers be impacted ? If it's too short to be able to build a combo multiplier reasonably it will take away a lot of the mod power.

will it also add another mod/resource layer? Like stamina orbs or stamina efficiency and stamina pool mods , 

this would be a lot of effort , and as has been observed too much effort means it will be avoided by the Devs.

When DE announced they were going to buff base melee damage by a factor of 3-4x and change the combo counter from a damage multiplier to something else, I was expecting our light attack damage to be divided by combo counter back when combo counter needed 135 hits to reach 3x.

In short, melee damage would be top loaded instead of ramped up with Blood Rush being dumpstered.

Chaining in the occasional heavy attack and gun-play would have been a way to recover our melee damage.

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Oh god no, this is the worst idea ever.

You want to put cooldown on melee, because people don't want to use guns and maybe they will have to if melee is on cooldown. People don't want to use guns, because those are weak and/or inconvenient and this "change" would only cause more frustration.

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I also think stamina should make a comeback but not as a hindrance but as a management utility. Meaning it shouldn't be too restricting but restricting enough to make people play a little smarter.

Because the stamina would also adress the actual elephant in the room : Parkour 2.0

If our mobility and melee spamming is slightly restricted I think that would allow the Dev's to bring back challenge into the game in other forms than just making enemies more spongier.

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hace 12 horas, (PSN)Lollybomb dijo:

We had a stamina system once.

You'll notice we no longer have a stamina system.

Perhaps you can guess why.

Real heroes dont wear capes

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12 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Everquest didn't come out until 1999, heathen! I know because I had to fight my roommates to play on our only computer.

lol, touche.

Yeah I never played it but I read up and keep up with the past, john smedley SWG NGE and things like that. The time smedley got fired after he threatened people on twitter for calling in a bomb threat on the flight he was boarding.  Ubisoft using cracked exe in their own patches, so on and so forth.

Another fun one is the legend of the Atari video game burial:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_video_game_burial

I never got into 2D automated games myself, though the genre makes sense for like adventure games, strategy or "the god genre". For action based games not so much.

Some of the attempts in final fantasy to keep the player less passive during turn based. shows to me they know it doesn't hold up, for action based combat.

Also royally dislike the dwarfs and elves theme, lord of the rings and wow, D&D, though I do keep up with knowledge of it. I knew a guy who actually studied the manual and had years of experience being game master for people he played with. So I try to keep my ear to the ground if I am into it or not.

Then the whole auto target, dodge on quicktime prompt arkham batman console combat system they've been using for the last 12 years or so, because you can't operate in 3D on a controller, camera has to be automated. Shows me there is something to it, something about player agency versus input needed to stimulate the brain, which is lost playing in 2D waiting for a timer, lol.

What it really is, is showing us how advanced the brain is, being able to operate in no gravity 3D, though we aren't born to fly, while watching a radar, 3 enemies, an ammo counter and listening to a podcast, lol. Think of how much people laugh at AI, is just a tribute to how great the mind is.

It's no easy task to create a video game that hits the nodes, you kind of have to be clever no doubt.

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