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Why Make Galvanized Mods 14 Polarity? Guess We'll Only Use Kuva Weapons?


(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1

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DE: "Hey, we're gonna add new mods to help guns. We also don't like Kuva weapons."

Us: "Cool! Understandable... sorta..."

DE: "Also... these mods are 14 polarity"

Us: "But.... we already have 4-5 14-16 polarity mods on per weapon. Even with 8 forma, some weapons can't hold these new mods. Guess we'll have to use kuva weapons"

DE: "Shame"

DE a few months later: "Kuva weapons are being used too much. NERF."

 

Edit: Didn't mean to put this in warframes sub forum. Meant to put in general feedback. 

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15 minutes ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

The multishot and base damage mods only replace their regular counterparts, but the crit and status mods costing 14 capacity will become a serious problem. Gun builds are already tight as hell on capacity, and this isn't helping it.

The galvanized acceleration in particular is a huge problem. Lol. That's alongside what you said already. 

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I've made this joke in some other post already, but anyway:  this seems like a very good grounds for adding some new Forma that gets your guns to lvl 40 if you use 5 of them. People use kuva weapons too much? Make every weapon a kuva weapon! ^_^

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51 minutes ago, Infirito said:

I've made this joke in some other post already, but anyway:  this seems like a very good grounds for adding some new Forma that gets your guns to lvl 40 if you use 5 of them. People use kuva weapons too much? Make every weapon a kuva weapon! ^_^

If something like this happens and the new ranks come with more MR to earn.... ugggggghhhhhh...

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1 hour ago, Infirito said:

I've made this joke in some other post already, but anyway:  this seems like a very good grounds for adding some new Forma that gets your guns to lvl 40 if you use 5 of them. People use kuva weapons too much? Make every weapon a kuva weapon! ^_^

Or maybe make the Weapon Exilus function like an aura/stance slot. That'll make opening that slot way more desirable and better justify spending 20p to unlock it.

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See, I'd be with you, @Famecans except for a question.

Here's the thing, the real thing, with this situation, and it's really the most simple question:

Why are melee weapons viable with a zero Forma build, and the most that 99% need is a 3 Forma build?

And it's not just the mods. It's the system behind them. Guns do not innately hit multiple enemies, from base, without either being an AoE or lining enemies up for Punch Through, which on most single-target guns is a stat you have to add with mods. All melee weapons are inherently multi-target.

Guns do not have Point boosting Stances. Stances on Melee are innate multipliers, giving base multi-hit for a single button press, and 2x, 3x, up to 6x damage multipliers to damage before any other mods or 'on kill' conditions are even applied. A two-handed Nikana, for example, has the guaranteed Bleed proc on its stance from just pressing the Heavy Attack button, and that's on all enemies in range, every press. Name a gun that does that without mods with just a press of the Alt-Fire. Guns do not have a combo counter, and DE have just given them Arcanes that function like one, if you squint, but they don't have any mods that play off Arcanes, so it's not the same.

If the Arcanes added point capacity, then they might actually be like Stances, and a gun could be ready with just the Arcane and a potato, the zero-Forma build could actually work.

While you can fit a functional build on a gun, with all of these mods on it, it takes 8-9 Forma to do so for some of them. A few guns might have three innate Polarities, but some of those you might have to change, like on the Exilus.

A gun, which already does not function as well as a Melee weapon at base, will now take around 5-9 Forma, an Arcane Unlocker and an Exilus Adapter in order to compete with Melee.

Melee takes a Stance, and up to 3 Forma to be viable, with some extreme cases maybe needing 6 Forma, no Arcane Unlocker, no Exilus Adapter.

Is that actually balanced? Is that Equity? (Not equality, equity, where everything gets what it actually needs to be equal, instead of just being given equal amounts.)

Because your build there says no.

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1 minute ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Many thanks. It's a difference that's key to any of these discussions ^^

Guns and melee need to be near enough equal. Obviously.. there should be a difference between the two considering putting oneself in the fray should result in different bonuses, but melee shouldn't over Shadow guns like they do. 

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3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Guns do not have Point boosting Stances. Stances on Melee are innate multipliers, giving base multi-hit for a single button press, and 2x, 3x, up to 6x damage multipliers to damage before any other mods or 'on kill' conditions are even applied. A two-handed Nikana, for example, has the guaranteed Bleed proc on its stance from just pressing the Heavy Attack button, and that's on all enemies in range, every press. Name a gun that does that without mods with just a press of the Alt-Fire.

Ok, it deals some huge (more later) slash proc. However... how many times per mission are you using heavy attacks? They are VERY slow, even with Wind up mods. I want to use it. I have beautiful Arum Spinosa with its "shoot on heavy attack" but even with the mods it's very slow.

Name a gun you said. Well... how about Convetrix? I'm not sure about number of enemies affected (I think beams used to be bigger) but it deals Slash damage. There are probably other weapons that you can apply Slash a lot.

 

The problem is how much Slash damage it could deal. Convextrix just tickle 155 Heavy Gunner. Tatsu's Heavy attack deals a lot of damage (as fair I remember 2 heavy attack could kill HG).

 

 

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The Galvanized mods are powerful enough that the cost -might- not bother me much.  To me, there's at least a little value in needing to make other adjustments in builds in order to fit them.   But it's irritating that this will be so much less of a factor with lich weapons, which are already least in need of more powerful mods in the first place.  It's a "Rich get Licher" situation, through and through.

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4 hours ago, quxier said:

Name a gun you said. Well... how about Convetrix? I'm not sure about number of enemies affected (I think beams used to be bigger) but it deals Slash damage. There are probably other weapons that you can apply Slash a lot.

Not guaranteed, it’s status chance based. Only one gun in the game has guaranteed status procs, and they’re all regular elements, not flat Bleeds, and not at double base damage with no mods.

So there was one to name but it’s not even in the same class.

How often do I use Heavy Attacks? Ask anyone using a gun blade. Ask anyone using a Glaive (one of the leaders of the current meta). The speed mods for wind up stack with base speed and are affected by Abilities too. Builds for Heavy Attacks are as effective, depending on the weapon, as the builds for Combo.

While they aren’t as prevalent, due to needing the right stance or weapon, you would honestly be surprised.

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25 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Not guaranteed, it’s status chance based. Only one gun in the game has guaranteed status procs, and they’re all regular elements, not flat Bleeds, and not at double base damage with no mods.

So there was one to name but it’s not even in the same class.

High status chance or high rate of fire results in slash (or other) proc. Pre-buff Sarpa were able to deal a lot of status because she shoot 4-5 bullets per button press. She had 10% status.

30 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

How often do I use Heavy Attacks? Ask anyone using a gun blade. Ask anyone using a Glaive (one of the leaders of the current meta).

I used Sarpa and Heavy Attack wasn't something that I use a lot.

And when I tested glaives "auto explosion" made heavy attack rarely needed, as fair I remember.

31 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The speed mods for wind up stack with base speed and are affected by Abilities too.

I don't think so. Volt with 1.95x (+ maybe P. Fury, don't remember but it doesn't matter) doesn't change wind up speed. I've picked hammer (afair they had one of the slowest) put 2 wind up mods and I got 0.5 in stat. Putting P. Fury won't change that. Pressing key with and without P. Fury feels the same. Volt makes the hammer move very quickly but heavy attack is the same.

As fair I remember there are 3 mods that affects wind up speed.

Maybe other mods or abilities change that. What have you used?

ps. I've used Wisp with 175% strength (35% speed increase) but it might not be visible.

53 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

While they aren’t as prevalent, due to needing the right stance or weapon, you would honestly be surprised.

I think I need to investigate it more.

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11 hours ago, (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

Guns and melee need to be near enough equal. Obviously.. there should be a difference between the two considering putting oneself in the fray should result in different bonuses, but melee shouldn't over Shadow guns like they do. 

I'd argue automatically blocking incoming frontal fire, unlimited usage and minimal downtime (no reloads) are fairly large bonuses as is, especially when the majority of content (both in terms of maps and AI) pushes us into close quarters anyways.

As for the modding capacity on guns issue, can you imagine if MR31+ continue the trend of adding capacity and it goes beyond the normal max? There would be riots all over the forums and reddit, but even so I could see it making it's way into the game.

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Am 19.6.2021 um 21:06 schrieb (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1:

DE: "Hey, we're gonna add new mods to help guns. We also don't like Kuva weapons."

Us: "Cool! Understandable... sorta..."

DE: "Also... these mods are 14 polarity"

Us: "But.... we already have 4-5 14-16 polarity mods on per weapon. Even with 8 forma, some weapons can't hold these new mods. Guess we'll have to use kuva weapons"

DE: "Shame"

DE a few months later: "Kuva weapons are being used too much. NERF."

 

Edit: Didn't mean to put this in warframes sub forum. Meant to put in general feedback. 

what happened to kuva bramma is absolutely wrong! top skin, sound and style of play in my opinion!
and with polarity you are right. does not work! but it's probably all about new content! devs want to sell new weapons and these 5-forma things will probably offer top performance for a few months.

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3 hours ago, quxier said:

I think I need to investigate it more.

Honestly, do, I highly recommend it if you pick your weapons right.

An example is the Karyst Prime. The base speed is only 0.667, one of the slowest attack speed weapons in the game. But Heavy Attacks are only one attack, at most two, so you aren't doing a long, clunky combo, you're doing one or two hits.

Now, you may be right that the attack speed mods themselves don't affect wind-up, I genuinely haven't experimented too much into it, I just like all of my Melee to have at least one main Attack Speed mod on them for my own enjoyment, but with the two wind-up speed mods that I use, a Heavy Attack with this is no different to a basic attack. Here's the explanation:

Spoiler

 

The stance Stinging Thorn gives you a two-press Heavy Attack, which guarantees a Bleed and Impact on each press. It also guarantees 2.5x Damage on the hit, which is on top of the base 2x damage that the Heavy Attack deals over the basic attack.

So just for putting on the Stance, you hit Alt Fire and deal 1720 damage instead of the original 344, resulting in a guaranteed Bleed of 434 per second (which, if you notice, is higher than the base damage, even though the calculation discounts the Toxin damage on the base).

The key is that, even though the Karyst Prime is slow, the Heavy Attack is only one attack, or two. You aren't doing combos that take three or four seconds to do, you're hitting a button and it does it.

With a build like... this: https://overframe.gg/build/175185/

(Now, I have a Riven, which is better Attack Speed than Primed Pressure Point, and it has base Damage, which is pretty much perfect for this setup, but I haven't included it on the build for obvious reasons.) You can swap out Gladiator Might for pretty much anything that provides an additional multiplier, I like putting in a bane mod when I remember to, meaning not only is my base damage increased, the bleeds are increased too. I think I've even tried out the Carnis mod to get a little more Status Chance for the base attacks (because sometimes I forget and just hit E) and it also adds that base Slash to count for Bleeds. The single Toxin mod is there to make this more universal, since the bleeds don't affect Corpus the same way, but the high base Toxin will rip right through them on almost any level I've played to.

This build, as you can see, gives you 2415 damage on a base hit. On the Heavy Attack, this is doubled. On the Stance the doubled damage is then 2.5x that. Because of the way Sacrificial Steel works, it's a guaranteed Crit, which is instantly an extra 5.4x damage. With Corrupt Charge, I'm at 2x Combo at all times, meaning that damage is again multiplied by 2.

So I'm hitting for a total of 130,410 damage for each hit of the double-hit that the Stance gives you. (One press of the Heavy Attack gives you 2 hits, so all of this is doubled, but the Bleed is only on the first hit of the attack.) The Bleed is then 12,417 per second, while the total damage for one button press is 260,820.

The single press of damage is enough to kill up to a level 70 Heavy Gunner, two presses is enough to take care of over level 80's. The bleed, however, will have killed that level 80 after the first tick of 12,417 due to the true damage hitting base health that's already down to 50% or so from the main damage.

If you want, you can hit and walk away from a level 131 Heavy Gunner (even on Steel Path) and the bleed will kill it on the third tick. This is without the fact that Sacrificial Steel's bonus could allow you to hit an Orange Crit and make the multiplier on that 6.4x.

It's kind of just base silly if you have any function in the game that can group enemies, or if you want to single-DPS down something like a Demolyst. Given the Crit multiplier I even use it on Steel Path Deimos, because the Jugulus enemies have damage reduction that's based on DPS before Crit, so you need a Crit heavy weapon to kill them at that level.

 

I mentioned Gunblades, and I think you may be a little biased on that. The Sarpa is really good for Status.

But for Heavy Attacks, use the Redeemer Prime and the Stropha, they're pretty interchangeable, and the Stropha has a wide cone of effect compared to the Redeemer Prime's more concentrated pellets. They don't have any guarantee'd proc other than a 'stun', but they do have range and the Stropha has infinite punch-through for the duration of the projectile, allowing it to hit massive groups.

While the Heavy Attacks on a double-handed Nikana seem slow, they hit radially, and you have dozens of frames that can group up or draw enemies to a location for smashing with this. The multiplier on the hit is 6x from the Stance, as well, so it's pretty amazing, especially if you use the Pennant with the base function it has of increasing its own attack speed with Heavy Attack kills.

The Heavy Blade and Hammer categories get 6x multipliers on their Heavy Attacks too, they're often just as quick as the main combos, and while they don't have any guaranteed procs, they definitely have the really high damage and crit you want.

Dual Daggers benefit from the same bonus that single Daggers do, meaning you get two hits per press except that both of these hits also proc Bleed instead of the single Dagger's one hit. If you use the Fang Prime with that massive 2.6x base Crit Multiplier, your damage goes through the roof with Heavy Attacks. 

Rapiers have a better multiplier and guaranteed Bleed on their Heavy Attack, they also have a guaranteed Bleed on their second basic attack (third hit of the combo, 3x damage multiplier on that).

And Whips are the last that can benefit, with the increased range and a 4.5x multiplier on their Heavy Attacks, also with a guaranteed Bleed. It also provides a knock-down so it's good CC too, and the Knock Down attack on the stances has a 10x multiplier, which is fun when you actually use the combo of Heavy to knock them down and then the knock-down attack. It's fairly devastating.

Anyroadup, the build is pretty much the same on everything. If you slap on the Stance, the three Primed mods, Killing Blow, Amalgam Organ Shatter and Corrupt Charge, you're golden. Free slot on the last, and if your testing says that Primed Fury doesn't affect anything, then that's yet another free slot, slap in another base Element or another Crit Damage mod like Gladiator Might, or even your Riven if you have one. Heck, make it a Viral/Heat or Corrosive/Heat or Magnetic/Toxin build, can't hurt overall as raw damage is what you're after here.

And best of all? That build takes a maximum of 5 Forma on any Melee, absolute Max. Unlike many of the builds for guns, which can take 8 or 9.

::Edit::

Forgot to address a point:

High Status, even 100% and over status, does not guarantee any particular Status proc, it just guarantees one. To get to 100% status, most weapons will need multiple Status Chance mods, like the Dual stat elementals, which all add another damage type it could be, in fact if you add two of those, you've put on 120% of a combined element, which will massively out-weigh the chances of getting an IPS-based Status.

A Status-based Weapon, for one press of the button (not a hold either, that's just throwing ammo at the problem), cannot guarantee what the single press of a button can guarantee on a Melee weapon.

A gun that is not AoE, which is the majority of guns in the game, cannot hit all enemies in a cone or radius of effect. The closest you get is a shotgun or energy pulse weapon, which can have a wide enough cone or projectile to hit multiple enemies, but this comes with the caveat of basic fall-off damage.

A gun that has no innate punch-through, which is also the majority of guns in the game, cannot even hit enemies in a direct line behind each other and the damage is often blocked by the falling dead bodies of the enemy you've just killed in front.

So I'll re-state this; 

Guns are not equal to Melee, not because they don't have the same mods, but because they don't have the same base systems to function with.

Every single melee is a multi-hit weapon in at least a cone-of-effect, for its range. Only a minority of guns are.

Every single melee weapon has a function that will deal multiplied base damage with a single mod (the Stance) that also adds Mod Points, and a vast majority of melee have the additional effects to the weapon's damage independent of any other mods.

Guns will now have the equivalent of a Combo Counter and no mods that work with it. Guns will now have conditional scaling functions, and nothing else that works with it. Guns will still be locked to having 60 Mod Points max, while every single (non-Ability) Melee has 70, meaning more Forma investment for a similar build.

Just being given mods that make them more effective at dealing their own damage, or Arcanes that do that too, will not make guns equal.

It's like the box analogy.

If three men, a tall one, a medium one and a short one are trying to look over a fence, equality is to give them all a box to stand on. But the tall guy could already see, so giving him a box was useless, the medium guy can now see with the box, but the short guy still can't see. If you take the box from the tall guy, who can see without it, and give that to the short guy, it is not equal treatment, but it means that the short guy can stand on two boxes and see, the medium guy stands on one box and can see, while the tall guy can stand on the ground and see.

Melee has the advantage because it's already got all these extra functions, it stands tall. Guns do not have those, they need functions that can make them stand tall.

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2 hours ago, Kanaima said:

I'd argue automatically blocking incoming frontal fire, unlimited usage and minimal downtime (no reloads) are fairly large bonuses as is, especially when the majority of content (both in terms of maps and AI) pushes us into close quarters anyways.

This is a good point. I agree. 

 

2 hours ago, Kanaima said:

As for the modding capacity on guns issue, can you imagine if MR31+ continue the trend of adding capacity and it goes beyond the normal max? There would be riots all over the forums and reddit, but even so I could see it making it's way into the game

Naw. DE wouldn't dare, nor would it make sense. As far as they've implied, everything above 30 will be small either cosmetic things or just plat things like slots. It wouldn't be gamechanging. 

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18 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Honestly, do, I highly recommend it if you pick your weapons right.

An example is the Karyst Prime. The base speed is only 0.667, one of the slowest attack speed weapons in the game. But Heavy Attacks are only one attack, at most two, so you aren't doing a long, clunky combo, you're doing one or two hits.

Now, you may be right that the attack speed mods themselves don't affect wind-up, I genuinely haven't experimented too much into it, I just like all of my Melee to have at least one main Attack Speed mod on them for my own enjoyment, but with the two wind-up speed mods that I use, a Heavy Attack with this is no different to a basic attack. Here's the explanation:

  Hide contents

 

The stance Stinging Thorn gives you a two-press Heavy Attack, which guarantees a Bleed and Impact on each press. It also guarantees 2.5x Damage on the hit, which is on top of the base 2x damage that the Heavy Attack deals over the basic attack.

So just for putting on the Stance, you hit Alt Fire and deal 1720 damage instead of the original 344, resulting in a guaranteed Bleed of 434 per second (which, if you notice, is higher than the base damage, even though the calculation discounts the Toxin damage on the base).

The key is that, even though the Karyst Prime is slow, the Heavy Attack is only one attack, or two. You aren't doing combos that take three or four seconds to do, you're hitting a button and it does it.

With a build like... this: https://overframe.gg/build/175185/

(Now, I have a Riven, which is better Attack Speed than Primed Pressure Point, and it has base Damage, which is pretty much perfect for this setup, but I haven't included it on the build for obvious reasons.) You can swap out Gladiator Might for pretty much anything that provides an additional multiplier, I like putting in a bane mod when I remember to, meaning not only is my base damage increased, the bleeds are increased too. I think I've even tried out the Carnis mod to get a little more Status Chance for the base attacks (because sometimes I forget and just hit E) and it also adds that base Slash to count for Bleeds. The single Toxin mod is there to make this more universal, since the bleeds don't affect Corpus the same way, but the high base Toxin will rip right through them on almost any level I've played to.

This build, as you can see, gives you 2415 damage on a base hit. On the Heavy Attack, this is doubled. On the Stance the doubled damage is then 2.5x that. Because of the way Sacrificial Steel works, it's a guaranteed Crit, which is instantly an extra 5.4x damage. With Corrupt Charge, I'm at 2x Combo at all times, meaning that damage is again multiplied by 2.

So I'm hitting for a total of 130,410 damage for each hit of the double-hit that the Stance gives you. (One press of the Heavy Attack gives you 2 hits, so all of this is doubled, but the Bleed is only on the first hit of the attack.) The Bleed is then 12,417 per second, while the total damage for one button press is 260,820.

The single press of damage is enough to kill up to a level 70 Heavy Gunner, two presses is enough to take care of over level 80's. The bleed, however, will have killed that level 80 after the first tick of 12,417 due to the true damage hitting base health that's already down to 50% or so from the main damage.

If you want, you can hit and walk away from a level 131 Heavy Gunner (even on Steel Path) and the bleed will kill it on the third tick. This is without the fact that Sacrificial Steel's bonus could allow you to hit an Orange Crit and make the multiplier on that 6.4x.

It's kind of just base silly if you have any function in the game that can group enemies, or if you want to single-DPS down something like a Demolyst. Given the Crit multiplier I even use it on Steel Path Deimos, because the Jugulus enemies have damage reduction that's based on DPS before Crit, so you need a Crit heavy weapon to kill them at that level.

 

I mentioned Gunblades, and I think you may be a little biased on that. The Sarpa is really good for Status.

But for Heavy Attacks, use the Redeemer Prime and the Stropha, they're pretty interchangeable, and the Stropha has a wide cone of effect compared to the Redeemer Prime's more concentrated pellets. They don't have any guarantee'd proc other than a 'stun', but they do have range and the Stropha has infinite punch-through for the duration of the projectile, allowing it to hit massive groups.

While the Heavy Attacks on a double-handed Nikana seem slow, they hit radially, and you have dozens of frames that can group up or draw enemies to a location for smashing with this. The multiplier on the hit is 6x from the Stance, as well, so it's pretty amazing, especially if you use the Pennant with the base function it has of increasing its own attack speed with Heavy Attack kills.

The Heavy Blade and Hammer categories get 6x multipliers on their Heavy Attacks too, they're often just as quick as the main combos, and while they don't have any guaranteed procs, they definitely have the really high damage and crit you want.

Dual Daggers benefit from the same bonus that single Daggers do, meaning you get two hits per press except that both of these hits also proc Bleed instead of the single Dagger's one hit. If you use the Fang Prime with that massive 2.6x base Crit Multiplier, your damage goes through the roof with Heavy Attacks. 

Rapiers have a better multiplier and guaranteed Bleed on their Heavy Attack, they also have a guaranteed Bleed on their second basic attack (third hit of the combo, 3x damage multiplier on that).

And Whips are the last that can benefit, with the increased range and a 4.5x multiplier on their Heavy Attacks, also with a guaranteed Bleed. It also provides a knock-down so it's good CC too, and the Knock Down attack on the stances has a 10x multiplier, which is fun when you actually use the combo of Heavy to knock them down and then the knock-down attack. It's fairly devastating.

Anyroadup, the build is pretty much the same on everything. If you slap on the Stance, the three Primed mods, Killing Blow, Amalgam Organ Shatter and Corrupt Charge, you're golden. Free slot on the last, and if your testing says that Primed Fury doesn't affect anything, then that's yet another free slot, slap in another base Element or another Crit Damage mod like Gladiator Might, or even your Riven if you have one. Heck, make it a Viral/Heat or Corrosive/Heat or Magnetic/Toxin build, can't hurt overall as raw damage is what you're after here.

And best of all? That build takes a maximum of 5 Forma on any Melee, absolute Max. Unlike many of the builds for guns, which can take 8 or 9.

I wish you were on ps4. I think I could learn quite a bit more from you. 

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