Why Make Galvanized Mods 14 Polarity? Guess We'll Only Use Kuva Weapons?

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

I wish you were on ps4. I think I could learn quite a bit more from you. 

Eh, I'm just an old pedantic player.

I like playing devil's advocate on arguments, so when somebody says 'function X isn't good' I like finding reasons why it is. And a lot of the time, because of this argumentative side, I've often actually tested out the results from an earlier argument.

I built Heavy Attack weapons when the Melee changes came out, I was one of the ones that realised the (entirely forgotten) Corrupt Charge was a winner for them, because you instantly regenerate the 2x base combo, which is a damage multiplier for Heavy Attacks, and you can scale it higher if you have a group of enemies to hit first, especially if you have Naramon's passive to maintain a combo for longer.

Depending on the mission, I enjoy switching my weapons up. And heck, I've had a lot of reason to do so, since my favourite frame is Zephyr, until the most recent update to her kit she relied almost entirely on her weapons. Finding combinations that worked was essential. Now she boosts her weapons so you can choose a lot of different ones and kill practically everything. I recently killed Acolytes with the Plinx thanks to a combo with Arcane Precision, Airburst Rounds and kiting them through Tornado a few times (just jump in the air and shoot Tornado while the Acolyte is in range of the ability), surprisingly effective at chewing through them. Can't wait to see what the new mods and Arcanes can do to that build...

Melee is a fun one to experiment with, at least, because of Stances and the weird niche mods you get on there.

Why are Tonfas considered powerful? Because of Sovereign Outcast's massively multi-hitting combos, just one button press of the 'block + forward' combo on that hits six times on each enemy in range, you can get 20-30 hits for your Combo on a group, or higher if you have a nice grouping ability.

Why are Machetes suddenly good after the melee update? Cyclone Kraken stance has 3x and 4x damage multipliers on the basic attacks, guaranteed radial attacks that hit multiple times like Tonfas do (except where Tonfas have a 0.5x multiplier on their multi-hit attacks, Machete's have 2x and 4x multipliers), and evem guaranteed Bleeds on the block-forward combo... It really ups the game on things like the Gazal Machete or Machete Wraith. (Love the Gazal Machete, because I run Djinn most of the time for Fatal Attraction and the self-reviving mod it has.)

Why does the Sarpa devastate the Eidolons? Because of Bullet Dance allowing you to shoot projectiles as basic attacks and Shattering Impact then peeling their armour off by 30 with every attack, and since the Teralyst's base armour (at level 1) is only 125, then you've completely stripped it off in 5 presses of the melee button. You reduce an Effective Health of 1,130,120 Armoured Health down to 333,135 base Health. Side note: A really, really fun fact is that Terry's base Health type is Robotic, which means he takes 50% more damage from Electricity. What does Volt do when you put a Shield between you and your target? Add Electric damage to your shots. (Also doubles your modded Crit damage too.) With three Shields, it adds 150% damage to your shots. With this, Volt with a Sarpa and a high damage rifle, like the Rubico, is a meta Eidolon hunter... I understand that the Shields also affect Amps, at least for the Crit Damage part, not sure how effective the Electric part is, so a Volt Shield can help take down Terry's shields too. Weird when you first hear it, obvious when you see the combo.

There's ridiculous things out there, you just have to think a little outside the box.

[Tiltskillet]

 

...

 

[Tiltskillet]

5 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

3 14 cap mods replacing a 14 cap, a 15 cap and a 9 cap mod in exchange for at peak performance around 60% higher minimum dps, with if polarized a only 1 cap increase (7/8/5 to 7/7/7).

Ah, that's a fair point.  I wasn't thinking about the base damage mods getting replaced, as long as we can get the kill ball rolling without them.

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

54 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Eh, I'm just an old pedantic player.

 

54 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I like playing devil's advocate on arguments, so when somebody says 'function X isn't good' I like finding reasons why it is. And a lot of the time, because of this argumentative side, I've often actually tested out the results from an earlier argument

Then we are very similar. I like learning new things by challenging things. I'm a very pedantic person as well. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

9 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

An example is the Karyst Prime. The base speed is only 0.667, one of the slowest attack speed weapons in the game.

It has one of the lowest Attack Speed modifiers in the game. Which is an entirely different statement on a weapon-class significantly faster at baseline than most.

[quxier]

11 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Now, you may be right that the attack speed mods themselves don't affect wind-up, I genuinely haven't experimented too much into it, I just like all of my Melee to have at least one main Attack Speed mod on them for my own enjoyment, but with the two wind-up speed mods that I use, a Heavy Attack with this is no different to a basic attack. Here's the explanation:

It all depends on weapon's base wind up speed. Sarpa has 0.3 (I heard it's even lower but I don't remember where I heard that). On other hand Arum spinosa has 0.5.

Without speed mods & with Wind up mods, Sarpa's heavy attack is almost like normal attack. By contrast Arum spinosa's heavy attack with similar setup is slow.

11 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Here's the explanation:

Nice.

11 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I mentioned Gunblades, and I think you may be a little biased on that. The Sarpa is really good for Status.

I don't mean now. I mean before melee buff (Update 26).

Quote

Sarpa 10% -> 28%
Redeemer prime 28% -> 30%
Redeemer 10% -> 22%

Sarpa could deal some status but it wasn't something huge. I think with my build it went to ~36% cumulative probability (don't cite me here, I just remember this number). Now I have riven and my Sarpa have ~100% (I think it's more than 100 but I may be wrong).

Redeemer (and prime version) have been dealing status per shot not pellet.

Quote

Low status chance.

• For gunblade shots, before 100% status chance, the listed status chance is the base chance per shot that at least one pellet will proc a status; the actual base status chance per pellet is ~1.05%.

Source

So it was hard to deal status (at least normal version).

After the change each pellet has status chance so.... yeah.

 

11 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But for Heavy Attacks, use the Redeemer Prime and the Stropha, they're pretty interchangeable, and the Stropha has a wide cone of effect compared to the Redeemer Prime's more concentrated pellets. They don't have any guarantee'd proc other than a 'stun', but they do have range and the Stropha has infinite punch-through for the duration of the projectile, allowing it to hit massive groups.

My Sarpa (with riven but afair no Sacrificial steel) with not build for highest damage/crit still melts heavy gunner on HA. AoE of Stropha is nice but if you want single target I don't think Sarpa is bad.

11 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

High Status, even 100% and over status, does not guarantee any particular Status proc, it just guarantees one.

We shouldn't think about status chance per bullet. We should think about status per SECOND (or some similar way).  You probably only don't go around and use some slow weapon that shoot 1 bullet per few seconds (there are probably few exception but they are not "normal weapons"). Same with melee, you can go Heavy attack everyone but you can slash them few more times as well.

 

To sum up:

I don't think procing status is problem for guns (disregarding mentioned slow weapons). It's the damage that might be problem.

[Birdframe_Prime]

32 minutes ago, quxier said:

You probably only don't go around and use some slow weapon that shoot 1 bullet per few seconds

Just to address this, you know that every single bow, charge weapon, AoE weapon and so in is a shot every second or so?

I mean, it's approximately equal distribution to weapons that you do want to fire specifically compared to on full-auto or rapid shot, as it is for melee weapons you want to use Heavy Attacks on instead of Combo Building.

That much, at least, is equal in the balance of Melee to Gun.

And this:

56 minutes ago, quxier said:

Redeemer (and prime version) have been dealing status per shot not pellet.

Again, wrong thought. I'm not talking about the Status Chance of the weapon, I'm talking about what the Stance does independent of the stats of the weapon.

In terms of Gun Blades, the damage on a Heavy Attack from either the Stropha or Redeemer Prime is so high that you literally don't need the Status unless you want to get even more ridiculous with a status-priming gun first. Fully optimised builds with Abilities involved on top are literally just as powerful as Combo melee.

34 minutes ago, quxier said:

To sum up:

I don't think procing status is problem for guns (disregarding mentioned slow weapons). It's the damage that might be problem.

Well, no, that's entirely the wrong way to think about it.

This isn't about the actual proc's of Status, it's about the inequality of the base functions.

No gun does at base what melee does at base. And no gun does, even modded, anywhere near as much as a melee does when modded.

And the vast majority of guns fully modded, 9 Forma'd and Exilus unlocked, do not do what melee does with a Stance and 3 Forma.

It's 100% the comparison between what you do with a single button press on either, because that only multiplies the problems further down the line.

Think about it a little more for me.

I'm not talking about the absolute specifics on a weapon to weapon comparison. I'm talking about the fact that Guns have only a few weapons that are AoE or multi-target, while all Melee are innately multi-target or AoE.

I'm talking about how only a few Guns have punch-through while all Melee all have Follow Through.

I'm talking about how, until Arcanes are implemented to the system, requiring a specific Unlock item, no Gun has any form of weapon-specific damage multiplier or guaranteed enemy effect beyond basic Status (such as knock-down or stun), while all Melee do with a Stance mod. And you don't need to unlock your Stance slot with an item.

I'm talking about how, even with Arcanes and the new mods, all Guns are permanently locked at 60 Mod Points, which means that you need a Polarity in almost every slot to fit your builds, while Melee have 70 with a Stance meaning that many of them have viable builds capable with no Forma at all, and no melee needs every slot polarised.

Guns are, at base, not on the level of Melee from the functions.

And beyond that?

DE have, since the original 'Sword Alone' update, required that all enemies can be defeated with only melee.

There are no enemies in the game that melee is limited against (not even the hovering ones, which you can bring down with a ground-slam), while there are dozens that guns are limited against.

Take the basic Nox, with heavy armour and a head-shot weakness. Melee ignores that and applies damage as if it was any other unit.

Take the Deimos Jugulus, which has a DPS based Damage Reduction (as in it gains damage reduction based on what the weapon's calculated damage per second is after mods, but does not account for Critical hit damage, so the damage you hit above its Reduction with Crits allows you to kill it faster), Guns require at least 35% Crit Chance for a Primed/Corrupted Crit mod to take them to 100% Chance to permanently take advantage of their Crit Multiplier and kill the enemy quickly. Meanwhile Melee has one mod that (even after the Sisters Update) will take a melee weapon with 13% base Crit Chance up to 100%, and with a weapon that has 25% base will hit 200% after ramp up for bonus Multiplier.

I cannot be clearer than this, it's absolutely insane the disparity between the types of weapon:

Guns have only one representative in their entire arsenal that gains damage based on how many status effects are on the target, while Melee has that in a single mod to allow all melee to benefit if they want to.

All Melee weapons have an alt-attack that is boosted by both Stances and a Combo to deal massively multiplied base damage, and this alt-attack even changes to a full radial attack if you do it in the air towards the ground.

Melee has a system where moving or holding Aim can completely change the type of attack you deal, how many hits it causes, and can guarantee effects on the enemy beyond the modded status or crit. The most guns have is that a few, not very many, have an Alt Fire attack, while others have their Alt Fire dedicated to specifically changing them from semi to full auto, or similar, with some of those making changes to the stats depending on DE's mood.

The closest to Stances I've seen on Guns is the example of the Quatz and Quartakk, both of which have an Auto hip fire, and a Burst aimed fire. And on both, if you begin the Auto before aiming, and aim during the Auto, it maintains it. And while this does change some of the stats between auto and burst, that's literally all. No other effects happen for moving, aiming, aiming and moving together... nothing.

These are just...

Incredible base differences.

Guns are incredibly limited by the lack of these systems, and it really, really would benefit the Gun system to include something similar.

Hell, I'd take a gun Stance. Where without it you're just firing the base gun, but with it, you get bonuses for 'aiming while standing', 'aiming while moving' or 'hip fire while moving'. They don't have to include different animations, but being able to switch it up so that a shotgun that you aim while standing still has reduced spread and will deal bonus Headshot damage? That's awesome. Or that standing hip fire will broaden the spread, but increase the damage per pellet. Meanwhile moving will increase the spread, keep the base damage the same, but adjust the fall-off damage.

I'd take gun combos, where hits on target would build up a combo counter, and DE released some specific mods that were conditional on that, increasing stats like Crit or Status based on how much time you spent actually maintaining it. Give one of the Focus schools a Gun Combo extender, like Naramon's melee version, so that choosing that School would be more viable. Give guns the Deimos treatment, where after building up a certain number of kills, or Combo, you can expend the built points to do a much higher base level attack that hits in a radius or cone.

Those would be acceptable to me. I'd take those.

But it seems, by releasing these Arcanes, that DE won't.

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

9 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Hell, I'd take a gun Stance. Where without it you're just firing the base gun, but with it, you get bonuses for 'aiming while standing', 'aiming while moving' or 'hip fire while moving'. They don't have to include different animations, but being able to switch it up so that a shotgun that you aim while standing still has reduced spread and will deal bonus Headshot damage? That's awesome. Or that standing hip fire will broaden the spread, but increase the damage per pellet. Meanwhile moving will increase the spread, keep the base damage the same, but adjust the fall-off damage.

I'd take gun combos, where hits on target would build up a combo counter, and DE released some specific mods that were conditional on that, increasing stats like Crit or Status based on how much time you spent actually maintaining it. Give one of the Focus schools a Gun Combo extender, like Naramon's melee version, so that choosing that School would be more viable. Give guns the Deimos treatment, where after building up a certain number of kills, or Combo, you can expend the built points to do a much higher base level attack that hits in a radius or cone.

These are neat ideas. 

[quxier]

48 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Just to address this, you know that every single bow, charge weapon, AoE weapon and so in is a shot every second or so?

I mean, it's approximately equal distribution to weapons that you do want to fire specifically compared to on full-auto or rapid shot, as it is for melee weapons you want to use Heavy Attacks on instead of Combo Building.

That much, at least, is equal in the balance of Melee to Gun.

And this:

Ok, but are you going with Paris into a mission that requires killing many enemies (e.g. Survival)? I guess no. Or any bow that's not AOE or without gimmick.

Those weapons has has another pros & cons. We cannot simply say that a bow cannot deal enough status. Maybe it has some other usages (or some of those weapons are just "relic of the past").

 

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Again, wrong thought. I'm not talking about the Status Chance of the weapon, I'm talking about what the Stance does independent of the stats of the weapon.

In terms of Gun Blades, the damage on a Heavy Attack from either the Stropha or Redeemer Prime is so high that you literally don't need the Status unless you want to get even more ridiculous with a status-priming gun first. Fully optimised builds with Abilities involved on top are literally just as powerful as Combo melee.

Well, I don't want to argue about each weapon power so... I'll leave this... "alone".

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Well, no, that's entirely the wrong way to think about it.

I don't think so. I don't want to go through all of your post so let me say some stuffs & quote more important one. If I forget something, sorry.

Punch through, Follow through or Area of effect are things that affects how many enemies are affected. That's important aspect. This is however another topic that I don't want to argue because I probably, more or less, I agree with you and others.

All other stuffs are just fancy way of dealing damage or procing status. Lots of weapons can reliably proc some status. Of course some have more Slash some has more Blast. The proc is on an enemy. The question are whenever that proc is useful and how many times do I need to shoot to kill the enemy.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

17 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It also guarantees 2.5x Damage on the hit, which is on top of the base 2x damage that the Heavy Attack deals over the basic attack.

No it doesn't. All heavy attack multipliers listed on the wiki are with respect to the light attack damage. Both hits of the heavy attack do 344 x 2.5 = 860 damage. You do two of them for a single press, for a total of 860 x 2 = 1720 damage sure, but that's over 2 swings. Your next section shows that's not what you meant by 2x.

17 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

So just for putting on the Stance, you hit Alt Fire and deal 1720 damage instead of the original 344, resulting in a guaranteed Bleed of 434 per second (which, if you notice, is higher than the base damage, even though the calculation discounts the Toxin damage on the base).

Karyst's base toxin damage isn't discounted for slash procs. Only the first hit of Heavy attacks proc slash, so it'll do 860 x 0.35 = 301 tic damage.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Punch through, Follow through or Area of effect are things that affects how many enemies are affected.

Exactly.

And that's specifically why it needs to be discussed. When one category of weapons, by default, has automatic ability to affect multiple enemies in a radius or cone of effect, and the other only gets that if you specifically mod for it, or if you're using one or two weapons in an entire category? That's not right.

Even if we have different functions on Guns than Melee, the intent of the function should be at least comparable.

For example, another forum-ite raised the idea of 'ricochet' as a stat. What this does is essentially the chaining that a few beam weapons do, but hit-scan. If you hit one enemy, there's a stat that allows the bullet, or its multi-shot, to ricochet to another enemy within a radius or cone of effect. A ricochet shot would deal less damage, so it's a comparable stat to Follow Through (where the class of weapon has less or more damage for a ricochet shot) and it's a function unique to hit-scan weapons in the game, meaning that bows or beams wouldn't have that.

A high ricochet stat could be a Prime bonus, for example, that turns a predominately single-target weapon into one that hits three or four enemies down the line and has a unique effect on the ones it ricochets to.

Punch Through would then be a stat that people could choose to combine with this, and with Multi-shot, where a primary amount of the shot goes straight through, such as the original shot from a rifle, while the multi-shot bullet is the one that ricochets, if its fired. 

Combine that with the new Galvanised Chamber mod, which can stack to give you 200% Multishot for kills? You now have a gun that shoots straight through several enemies and has two bullets that ricochet into other targets in a cone. It deals less damage to the subsidiary enemies, but it's comparable to the cone/area of effect that Melee has. It's also not guaranteed, in a sense, which could be the in-game balance, because shooting an enemy that's further away wouldn't ricochet the bullet back towards you and hit a nearer target, so targeting a group would then be a choice between shooting the primary threat of the group, or painting more of them by shooting the leading target.

The intent of the function is to allow all hit-scan rifles to affect more than one enemy at a time, even without modding, just like Melee can do. The method, however, is very different and gives you a more unique aspect to mod for or consider when you're choosing a hit-scan rifle.

I'm specifically not saying that this is my answer to the situation, that's entirely up for debate. It's just an idea that was presented to me.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

We need functions, systems, to add to Guns that will serve similar purpose to Melee otherwise it will just be the same situation ever-more. DE have been in a perpetual cycle of changing Melee to out-perform Guns, then changing Guns to bring their damage back up to Melee, then changing Abilities on frames to have more effect than either, then changing Melee again, and it goes on and on.

They've seen the sense, over time, of adding things like a Combo Counter, like Heavy Attacks, and like Stances. It's all systems, functions, they've added over time.

But they don't seem to get that if the other weapons in the game don't get similar additions, then the balance can only tip one way or the other; Raw Damage vs Multiplicative Functions.

That's the thing DE have to fix, not just adding damage functions to Guns, especially not when they don't even have a way to boost Mod Points like Frames and Melee do.

Moving swiftly on:

54 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

No it doesn't. All heavy attack multipliers listed on the wiki are with respect to the light attack damage.

Hmm... That wouldn't explain my numbers I got testing?

The Heavy Attack multipliers on the Stances do seem to increase the damage over the non-stance Heavy Attacks. In point of fact, on the Redeemer, slapping on the Stance actually reduces the Heavy Attack's base damage in the Arsenal, and yet the attack deals more when you fire it because of the multiplier on the stance.

But as for this:

57 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Karyst's base toxin damage isn't discounted for slash procs.

That would account for the disparity I got in the testing there, I was getting higher numbers than the regular equation would give. It's 100% not affected by the Toxin Mods you put on, that's a known discounted function and changing it to something else like Viral didn't change the values of the Bleed at all. But I did check with some of the other weapons, like the Silva and Aegis, which has no base IPS, and the Bleeds on Final Harbinger did trigger, so I'll revise my thoughts on that and agree with you.

And yes, it only procs on the first hit, I did say that at least twice in the post.

But from testing, the Stance changes do appear to be based of the listed Heavy Attack damage, rather than the Basic Attack. I'm getting numbers in testing that definitely suggest that.

I don't see any reason why else would there be a specific listing for how Heavy Attack damage is calculated over the Basic Attack for the Arsenal stats, and then list a multiplier on the Stance as well? If the Stance was not an additional multiplier, like it is for Basic Attacks using the Combos, then why bother marking it out as one on the combo list? Surely it would just be functional to say that the Stance just turns a single Heavy Attack into two hits, the first one proc'ing bleed? It wouldn't need to be a stat listed for the Stance.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

On 2021-06-19 at 4:09 PM, Famecans said:

That is your fault for choosing that Primed mod over Vigilante Supplies.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Hmm... That wouldn't explain my numbers I got testing?

The Heavy Attack multipliers on the Stances do seem to increase the damage over the non-stance Heavy Attacks. In point of fact, on the Redeemer, slapping on the Stance actually reduces the Heavy Attack's base damage in the Arsenal, and yet the attack deals more when you fire it because of the multiplier on the stance.

Yea no, you might want to wash your glasses.

 

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I don't see any reason why else would there be a specific listing for how Heavy Attack damage is calculated over the Basic Attack for the Arsenal stats, and then list a multiplier on the Stance as well? If the Stance was not an additional multiplier, like it is for Basic Attacks using the Combos, then why bother marking it out as one on the combo list? Surely it would just be functional to say that the Stance just turns a single Heavy Attack into two hits, the first one proc'ing bleed? It wouldn't need to be a stat listed for the Stance.

Its listed with a multiplier because:

1. You actually trust what the arsenal tells you in game? Daggers, Dual Daggers, Dual Swords, Gunblades, Tonfas and Warfans all have wrong values listed for their heavy attacks in the arsenal last I checked.
2. It is listed as a combo in-game, and all the multipliers in other combos in the stance table on the Wiki are listed as a multiplier of light attack damage.
3. Allows easy comparison to all the other attacks in the stance.

And stances don't even change heavy attacks. When you hit heavy attack once, your dagger is gonna do 2 hits, both doing 2.5x your light attack's damage, with the first hit proccing Impact and Slash regardless of what stance you put on it.

[quxier]

2 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Even if we have different functions on Guns than Melee, the intent of the function should be at least comparable.

In my opinion it shouldn't be that way. And I don't mean it as Guns vs Melee.

Sure, you should be able to beat a lot of content/enemies with any weapons but some should be better suited than others. For example:

- we have light units that are easy to kill

- we have strong units with high hp/armor/whatever that are harder to kill

- put a lot of light units and few strong unit

- now assume that AoE weapon (whenever primary, secondary or melee) clears light units but is to weak for strong units

- on other hand strong weapon can kill strong unit but it's too slow (or it doesn't have AoE feature) to kill light units (to many and to fast moving)

We have 3 "weapons" in each mission (4th might be Spoiler mode) but we rarely have to use more than one stuff (e.g. Sentient's fighting is interesting).

 

We have 24 different melee types, most have at least 2 stances. We have, as fair I remember, 20-30 melees with unique features (e.g. Telos boltace). Total amount of melees is something from 500 to 600 (not counting Zaws), as fair I remember.

Now tell me how many melees do you remember for some stuffs (except xN multiplier or other damage-stuffs). I might remember those with unique features or unique fighting style (gunblades, glaives and Zaws for Arcanes). That's a shame because a lot of melees looks amazing (e.g. If I could I would get Sarpa or Arum spinosa as replica or 3D print then I would probably put it on wall).

The same can go for Primaries/Secondaries but I'm melee guy so I don't have expertise in that field.

[Andele3025]

11 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

It has one of the lowest Attack Speed modifiers in the game. Which is an entirely different statement on a weapon-class significantly faster at baseline than most.

Attack Speed. The stance animation time is the modifier since attack speed also governs recovery times of any melee action (finishers, time between heavies, etc).

[Birdframe_Prime]

53 minutes ago, quxier said:

Sure, you should be able to beat a lot of content/enemies with any weapons but some should be better suited than others.

So you agree that DE's 'Sword Alone' update and strategy was a bad idea then? Where Melee is literally suited for everything? Because DE consciously made the decision that Melee should be suited for everything?

I genuinely think that this was one of the key problems in how DE have updated and given systems to the game. However... what point would there be removing that now?

This whole discussion is about what we can add to Guns to make them comparable, because DE are trying to add things that make them comparable. Of all those 24 different Melee types, there are very few with unique features, you're correct. But all those unique features are on top of all these things that Melee already has.

The difference here is that while there are guns with unique features, unfortunately the things that are considered 'unique features' on guns include all the things that Melee already has.

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

7 hours ago, quxier said:

Well, I don't want to argue about each weapon power so... I'll leave this... "alone".

 

7 hours ago, quxier said:

I don't think so. I don't want to go through all of your post so let me say some stuffs & quote more important one. If I forget something, sorry.

This is just disrespectful. If a guy writes an essay on something you seem to be invested in debating about, you don't just say "Too long, but I'll talk in what I skimmed on"

 

[quxier]

27 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

So you agree that DE's 'Sword Alone' update and strategy was a bad idea then? Where Melee is literally suited for everything? Because DE consciously made the decision that Melee should be suited for everything?

I don't know details so take it with a lot of salt.

The idea that every enemy could be beaten by melee is not bad idea. However I have to make distinction between SUITED & DEFATABLE. Suited is when you want to pick a weapon that can kill an enemy/ies in reasonable time. Defeatable on other hand requires only that you can defeat an enemy(-ies). It can takes seconds, hours or days.

Melee (or any weapon type) suited for every content is bad. However it's nice that all (or at least most) weapon can DEFEAT enemies (defeatable).

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I genuinely think that this was one of the key problems in how DE have updated and given systems to the game. However... what point would there be removing that now?

Instead of removing they can add enemies. For example it's hard to melee (excluding gunblades, glaives and some Exodias) flying enemies in Jupiter. That's how they make guns more SUITED than melee.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This whole discussion is about what we can add to Guns to make them comparable, because DE are trying to add things that make them comparable. Of all those 24 different Melee types, there are very few with unique features, you're correct. But all those unique features are on top of all these things that Melee already has.

The difference here is that while there are guns with unique features, unfortunately the things that are considered 'unique features' on guns include all the things that Melee already has.

Interesting. I guess could incentive them to create some interesting & different choices for guns... Well, that's my "subjective wish".

1 hour ago, (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

 

This is just disrespectful. If a guy writes an essay on something you seem to be invested in debating about, you don't just say "Too long, but I'll talk in what I skimmed on"

 

Oh, you must be new in the Internet.

That's not disrespectful. You should start valuing time of yours and other. You don't have to answer or you can answer shortly if:

- if you don't have expertise in given topic

- you feel like you cannot understand each other

- you feel like it's off topic

- ...