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The Dev Workshop that Broke the Camels Back


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5 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

To me it comes down to the difference between feedback and complaints. 

Feedback is either saying: 

1) I see "x" or "x + y..." problem(s) with the proposed changes/additions to the game, and this is why I think they are problems. 

OR

2) The above, but with an idea on what they should do instead, with specific examples.

And then frivolous complaints generally just fall in one major category:

1) Someone super angry that something is being nerfed, and gives a pithy short, angry comment, or a long wall of text, detailing how valuable a customer they are, and how DE is driving players away by making them weaker and taking away their power. There is no suggestion on how to improve the game or an explanation on why the changes are really bad, just an angry rant/threat that DE needs to change things back or they will quit and take their money elsewhere. At best, there will be a long, illogical screed, trying to justify why no video game should ever nerf anything that is in outlier in power ever and to do so will ruin the game. More often than not, the grammar and spelling are hard to follow. 

Yeah, while also adding speculation, assumption and agenda based talking points to the equation. I do truly enjoy the ideas discussed here but I wish the rhetoric would dial down a bit.

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Just now, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Yeah, while also adding speculation, assumption and agenda based talking points to the equation. I do truly enjoy the ideas discussed here but I wish the rhetoric would dial down a bit.

I think the rhetoric, at least from a small, but vocal segment of the playerbase, will always be there to some extent, unfortunately. As long as this game is billed as a power fantasy, there will always be a segment that goes absolutely ape anytime their power is decreased, even if you wouldn't notice it anywhere besides paper calculations in the vast majority of normal content, due to how much overkill damage we do to begin with. 

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11 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Some mods are so weak that you forget they exist

Then there's hilarious instances like Primed Slip Magazine giving +55% magazine capacity for 14 Drain while Ice Storm gives +40% AND 40% Cold on top of it for only 9 drain.

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Just now, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Warframe has way too much mod bloat and DE keeps making more to dilute the drop tables.

flechette.jpg

Oh, how they nerfed thee.

I just read your name properly and realized you are a Sith Lord. 

Crazy though... before my time even that's a cool throwback. 

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32 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

To me it comes down to the difference between feedback and complaints. 

Feedback is either saying: 

1) I see "x" or "x + y..." problem(s) with the proposed changes/additions to the game, and this is why I think they are problems. 

OR

2) The above, but with an idea on what they should do instead, with specific examples.

And then frivolous complaints generally just fall in one major category:

1) Someone super angry that something is being nerfed, and gives a pithy short, angry comment, or a long wall of text, detailing how valuable a customer they are, and how DE is driving players away by making them weaker and taking away their power. There is no suggestion on how to improve the game or an explanation on why the changes are really bad, just an angry rant/threat that DE needs to change things back or they will quit and take their money elsewhere. At best, there will be a long, illogical screed, trying to justify why no video game should ever nerf anything that is in outlier in power ever and to do so will ruin the game. More often than not, the grammar and spelling are hard to follow. 

Obviously there's nuance (like most everything to deal with a large community), but as far as I'm concerned that's a pretty big nail that's been hit on the head

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10 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Obviously there's nuance (like most everything to deal with a large community), but as far as I'm concerned that's a pretty big nail that's been hit on the head

Yep, and to think DE, and every other company really, has to both accept and dig through all of this just to find a decent discussion with proper feedback, majority constructive criticism, minimal trolling, rants and disinformation. Since 2012? Yikes!

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On 2021-06-20 at 2:55 PM, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

Of all the complaints I did not expect a timer on the steel essence to be that hot a topic. The timer is a non factor UNLESS you were abusing the games drop mechanic systems to force massive drops with a smeeta. 
 

As for the other changes Im 50/50 on them. The berserker change seems weird because now its both useable on non-crit weapons, but few people ran it with fury before anyway so the fact the two cant be combined seems weird.
 

The bloodrush change is whatever because gladiator mods exist, but the CO change is saddening for my baruuk. I dont understand where you’re getting the “CO will be capped like before” because it never was capped before. There was confusion with its original first change because it seemed to cap at 3 statuses, but it never did, and it wasnt something that was ever planned as far as we know. 

It is not abuse if endgame players with nothing else to do find the fastest kuva/umbral forma farm and get upset when de wants to stop them from having fun

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On 2021-06-21 at 1:10 AM, (PSN)JaxsonHammerkawk said:

actually LISTEN to the community

It's funny to me how you you joined the Forums a year and a half ago and presume to speak for "the community". I've been around for 6 years now and I don't even consider myself that old, and most users who've been around for a lot longer than you or me saw these nerfs coming from miles away and don't mind them. Nerfs like this have happened many times in the past and will continue to happen in the future. It's understandable to be butthurt about the game being made less easy, but that's okay. This is the pattern of Warframe. If it makes you this mad every time, maybe this game just isn't for you.

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3 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

It's funny to me how you you joined the Forums a year and a half ago and presume to speak for "the community". I've been around for 6 years now and I don't even consider myself that old, and most users who've been around for a lot longer than you or me saw these nerfs coming from miles away and don't mind them. Nerfs like this have happened many times in the past and will continue to happen in the future. It's understandable to be butthurt about the game being made less easy, but that's okay. This is the pattern of Warframe. If it makes you this mad every time, maybe this game just isn't for you.

Next time try reading what i said. For one, it's funny to me that you presume that i speak for the entire community, when i never claimed to. I was saying listen to the community in a broader sense. If you've done enough creeping around to figure out that i joined the forums a year and a half ago, been playing for longer than that, you would know that this is the first time I've complained about an upcoming change. Which is also pretty clear in the very beginning of my post about me being a whiteknight for DE for so long, which you apparently still are. Congrats on that. As for the nerfs themselves, I've said in my post and throughout this thread, that as long as CO isn't capped, it doesn't seem like a big nerf. Others here think, even if CO isn't capped, that it's still a big nerf, potentially cutting melee's power by half. The part I'm butthurt about is the reasoning behind these changes, which again i go over in my post, man you really need to work on paying attention, and the way these changes have been made which don't really address the whole reason these changes were supposed to be made in the first place, because guns aren't strong enough in SP. So back to your quote of me, ACTUALLY LISTEN TO THE COMMUNITY. Guess what chief, you don't speak for the community either. But I've gotten plenty of feedback from veteran players saying that they agreed with my points and "I said what a lot of us vets were thinking". And by the way, what do you think these forums are for? For 6 years all you've done is agree with everything DE has done? Have you ever voiced your concern over something, or just sit idly by and let someone else do the heavy lifting? Nothing is commendable about what you've said. So go back to being the whiteknight, go back to just spouting off random nonsense to people who actually care about the direction this game is going. I, as a consumer, will gladly complain and do what you fail to, to hopefully save a game i love, and hopefully help DE from constantly shooting themselves in the foot, and losing even more of their playerbase. Have a blessed day.

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On 2021-06-20 at 10:10 AM, (PSN)JaxsonHammerkawk said:

TL:DR- Community: Man i wish guns could be a viable option for Steel Path. DE: You're right community! Let's nerf the crap out of melee! Oh yeah and let's give them some mods and arcanes that don't adress the problem at all... And while we're at it, let's poop on all the vets again that mainly stick around for the one reward that's actually good, rivens, and let's make Steel Essence despawn after 5 minutes cuz those crafty lil buggers are staying in missions for a long time and using a tool for its actual intended purpose.

Let me start by saying I'm an MR30 with around 4k hours into the game. I've spent well over $1k usd over the years on Prime Accesses and various Packs. This by no means makes me an expert, but I can confidently say I understand the game and it's content, and by default DE in general, than the majority of newer players. I have white knighted for DE for years. I've taken up for them when a large number of players quite the game for some of the same reasons I'm about to go over. And quite frankly I'm done with it. This last dev workshop for sisters of parvos is the last straw. I can no longer in good faith stand up for such incompetency. Yes i know, harsh words, but it's the truth. The problem was that guns were not a good viable option for Steel Path. DE's fix is to nerf melee, and give us band-aid mods and arcanes. A recurring theme in the last few years.

They say attack speed was too high, you couldn't see and appreciate the animations. Does the berserker changes fix that? No. Which is fine by me, i think lowering it too much would be too detrimental to weapons with slower attack speeds. The on kill change, and lowering of the duration to 10 secs is a bit much imo also. Being able to seamlessly and quickly mow down enemies with your blade of choice is a favorite playstyle to a lot of WF players. Rebecca herself said that they would never nerf melee too much because of that very reason. 

The changes to Blood Rush and Condition Overload. Oh boy. Blood Rush gets a third of its cc potential removed. Why again? Because there's too many red crits? Wow ok. If you take a look at all the melee weapons, there's actually a small percentage that can red crit with only Blood Rush. Condition Overload changes. Big Yikes on this one. Damage reduced to 80% per status. Ok that's not bad, CO was already a really powerful mod. Oh and it's going back to only 3 status types. What? That's what's in the dev notes. Go check it out because a lot of people are missing this HUGE little point. DE tell us you hate endurance players without telling us you hate endurance players. You know, like a lot of your veteran players. The ones that have and potentially will spend the most money with you guys. 

The gun mods and arcanes all actually look pretty decent, except that the majority are ON KILL. And that it's JUST 126 more arcanes you need to farm.  Lol, oh DE, youz guyz with your sense of humor. IF THE GUNS AREN'T POWERFUL ENOUGH TO GET A KILL IN THE FIRST PLACE, HOW ARE THESE SUPPOSED TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM. The whole reason for ALL of these changes. So now all you've done is make the very few viable Steel Path ranged weapons more powerful, which is good. But have done nothing for the 95% of the other ranged weapons, which is bad. 

Now the things that upset me the most. The reasons why i just may have to move on to other games. 

We have to unlock the arcane slots, for every ranged weapon, with some kind of adapter from Teshin for 15 Steel Essence EACH. This blows my mind. You're basically punishing us for your ineptitude. These should be FREE, on every gun. Period. Full Stop.

And then the icing on the proverbial cake. Steel Essence will now despawn after 5 minutes. Yea you say you've increased acolyte spawn times. You said when acolytes were first implemented in SP that they would spawn every 5 mins. Which is not the case the vast majority of times. So i suspect this acolyte "buff", is to actually get them to that 5 min time. This despawn timer isnt for any other resource in the game, just SE. Why is it such a big issue that we spend an hour in a survival just on the chance we get a proc from our smeetas? Ah too much kuva. Yes we've gotten more ways to farm it. Are they good? No. It takes 3500 kuva for 1 roll. The sortie reward is 6000 kuva which I've always thought was hilarious. Floods and siphons give what, 1200-1800. And don't get me started on arbi's. So as you can see Steel Essence is the only viable kuva farm. Yes we actually do need 100k kuva for 2 hours in a survival when the VAST majority of riven rolls are garbage. + Faction damage + faction damage - 100% multishot, FANTASTIC, there went 3500 kuva. Rivens are what keep a lot of us Vets playing the game. And you've constantly crapped on them. Lowering the dispo to .5 on new weapons makes rivens worthless on those, and makes prime weapons irrelevant and worse off than their non-primed with a riven counterpart. What are you guys thinking? Seriously it seems like every new nerf hits vets harder than anyone else. Rivens are the only good reward, that can keep on rewarding, if the supply of kuva is good. Do i really want to spend an hour in a survival so i can just roll my riven 5 times? No. I don't. 

DE I really wish WF could be better. The community has great ideas that you only seem to partially listen to. You're community reps are THE BEST in the business, hands down. Rebecca, Megan, all of them deserve a huge raise. Your art work and level design and just the whole look of WF is phenomenal. The fluidity of movement and gun and sword play are for the most part top notch. But whoever makes the decisions for all these nerfs and buffs, you guys need a hand. Hire some new blood. I'm not saying fire everyone, just, idk, actually LISTEN to the community. I really do hope the best for you guys. But if WF stays on its current path, this Tenno can't walk it with you. 

 

Read through a good portion of the thread, and read your post and I have to say you are right.

Also, to add, I wish DE were more diligent, and interested, in adding story content. Started playing in May 2016 and dropped the game before the tutorial finished. Came back August 2017 and been playing ever since. Shame they can't give a reason to bother with the game other than grind. I just want more story content.

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Il y a 20 heures, (XBOX)The Neko Otaku a dit :

Surprised this thread is still going. I'm surprised so many people are freaking over honestly an okay workshop. People having raging fits over miniscule changes and screaming DE doesn't listen to the community, its not a surprise DE doesn't wonder around GD 

Because they honestly feel that the workshop is not ok, Reread yourself dude, what you are saying is extremly disdainfull. The bare argument of saying "you are not reasonnable so you are wrong" is one of the worst rethorical tool one can use... But if it makes you feel good throwing venom free at others on the internet, do as you please, I'm just a bit sad for you.

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1 hour ago, Galuf said:

Because they honestly feel that the workshop is not ok, Reread yourself dude, what you are saying is extremly disdainfull. The bare argument of saying "you are not reasonnable so you are wrong" is one of the worst rethorical tool one can use... But if it makes you feel good throwing venom free at others on the internet, do as you please, I'm just a bit sad for you.

Feelings aren't rational sometimes, regardless of how strong they are. People can "honestly feel" that the bramma nerf is "not ok", but that doesn't change the reality of the bramma now does it? 

 

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5 hours ago, Galuf said:

 But if it makes you feel good throwing venom free at others on the internet, do as you please, I'm just a bit sad for you.

What the...... this an over dramatic read of my comment.

The worksshop is okay, the way people are acting right now is same as every other time some changes happen. Bunch of people over exaggerate of the changes will do claim "DE doesn't what they're doing" and the "game going to die from it" and when these changes hit reality sets in and the changes don't come now where close to what was being said about doom and gloomers. Ant most some gloomers abandon everything touch by changes cause they're overdramatic and some people change a few very specific builds and most will changes check them and shrug and keep playing the game like normal. Happens everytime, chroma and bramma are good examples arebthis happening and it will happen with these changes seen it so many times before

Honestly the most annoying thing of the workshop is galvanized mods in arbitrations, means another game mode i need to attention in already packed update

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Agreed OP. Getting real tired of half-thought out band aid 'fixes' that don't address the problem at large.

All these changes will do is make the strongest guns even stronger, and leave the vast majority of weak guns, weak. Oh, and the slowest melee's even slower. Then DE will look at the usage stats of the 'strongest' guns, go 'herpaderpneedanerf' and then ruin the 'strongest' guns all because of their half-assed goddamn band aid fix.

Meanwhile the messengers (Reb/Meg etc) are the ones that'll take the brunt of community rage, when it's not their fault. Hrblbfng.

[screams into the void]

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Am 23.6.2021 um 00:01 schrieb (PSN)JaxsonHammerkawk:

Others here think, even if CO isn't capped, that it's still a big nerf, potentially cutting melee's power by half.

The fact that those people argue that reducing the damage bonus of CO by a third would cut overall melee power by half should tell everyone who went to middle school math class everything they need to know.

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On 2021-06-21 at 2:22 AM, (PSN)JaxsonHammerkawk said:

Then why say it's going back to 3 Status types at all? Lol

It was worded clunky and you misread it. The melee nerfs aren't going to hurt much at all. Just put on a rank 3 CO and a 38% blood rush. Then swap berserk for primed fury and try it for yourself. You'll still be getting 200k orange slash procs in steel path. It really only hurt sub 20% crit weapons.

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vor 16 Minuten schrieb Numerikuu:

Agreed OP. Getting real tired of half-thought out band aid 'fixes' that don't address the problem at large.

All these changes will do is make the strongest guns even stronger, and leave the vast majority of weak guns, weak. Oh, and the slowest melee's even slower. Then DE will look at the usage stats of the 'strongest' guns, go 'herpaderpneedanerf' and then ruin the 'strongest' guns all because of their half-assed goddamn band aid fix.

Meanwhile the messengers (Reb/Meg etc) are the ones that'll take the brunt of community rage, when it's not their fault. Hrblbfng.

[screams into the void]

can not be otherwise. and instead of producing more rubbish, how about at least one usable weapon?

what comes out now is absolutely embarrassing and cannot motivate a player.

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32 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

The fact that those people argue that reducing the damage bonus of CO by a third would cut overall melee power by half should tell everyone who went to middle school math class everything they need to know.

The overall effect is a 50% nerf to melee power. Blood Rush, CO, and Berserker nerfs means future hybrid melee will operate at ~55% of its current power.

gQEAejr.png

That's a 20% base CC weapon with 2x CD and 4 status procs before and after the nerf.

Is it justified? Perhaps, but people are not wrong to say that melee's power is being halved approximately

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6 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

The overall effect is a 50% nerf to melee power. Blood Rush, CO, and Berserker nerfs means future hybrid melee will operate at ~55% of its current power.

gQEAejr.png

That's a 20% base CC weapon with 2x CD and 4 status procs before and after the nerf.

Is it justified? Perhaps, but people are not wrong to say that melee's power is being halved approximately

They're still overkilling, and they still have buffs and debuffs.

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Gerade eben schrieb (PSN)Spider_Enigma:

 

Nobody cares what ideas were tossed around a few years ago or what some dev put into the internal dev build for a week two years ago. In the actual game that people actually play, CO was never capped at 3.

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vor 36 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom:

The overall effect is a 50% nerf to melee power. Blood Rush, CO, and Berserker nerfs means future hybrid melee will operate at ~55% of its current power.

gQEAejr.png

That's a 20% base CC weapon with 2x CD and 4 status procs before and after the nerf.

Is it justified? Perhaps, but people are not wrong to say that melee's power is being halved approximately

not halved .... upper surface has long been outbid. mk1-braton is better than any mele weapon! this is the reality.

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