The Dev Workshop that Broke the Camels Back

[Tesseract7777]

3 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Might I suggest you read through this thread and see that "originally" in this context is referring to it being better than PPP at 2 status currently (240% at 120% per status) and after the change being at that same amount at 3 statuses? (80% times 3 being 240%)?

People want to be angry so they read things that literally are not there. I think some people are addicted to the high they get from being outraged. Clearly their schools failed them on reading comprehension, as it is not hard to understand.

[0_The_F00l]

11 hours ago, (PSN)JaxsonHammerkawk said:

 I have white knighted for DE for years. I've taken up for them when a large number of players quite the game for some of the same reasons I'm about to go over. And quite frankly I'm done with it.

A white knights fall from grace is so fun and satisfying, You eitehr die a hero or live long enough to see yourself turn into the villain eh? Dont worry , i am sure it will get better.

 

With that out of the way , a few points to note:

1) The overall change to melee will be impactful , there is no doubt in my mind that effective damage is reduced to roughly half now on average and the ability to ramp up will be a lot less consistent (cant really put a number to it). But it is still well above what guns can do , i am happy that the mods are reigned in a bit but melee is still going to overkill most stuff. it will be noticeable later in the game for sure though. Also would like some clarity on the CO , i dont think there is a cap but more clarity wouldnt hurt.

2) The Gun changes dont really seem to do much , the guns that could already kill well enough will just be getting more options but the ones that were struggling will just have to struggle a little less. And though i am not a fan of having to grind more for something that should be baseline , i am not surprised , that is the standard MO. What is surprising is that they will not be making it plat purchasable. It is also rather weird that it is in the steel shop , if i can already farm steel essence well enough why would i need more power for my weapons? Then again , that is true for most of the star chart as well. so i can let it slide,

3) The Steel essence de spawning doesnt really impact me much , i never spent more than 10 to 20 minutes in any mission on average i am sure it impacts those that farmed the steel essence by spending hours in a survival , for kuva to roll their rivens, by taking advantage of the different buffs available. I have stopped caring about rivens quite some time ago and i just do combination of kuva survival (preferably fissure), arbitration and regular siphons to keep my kuva in the 10K to 50K range for the occasional riven i might like. I tend to just do the daily incursions to save the steel essence for umbra forma.

 

[Aldain]

48 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

People want to be angry so they read things that literally are not there. I think some people are addicted to the high they get from being outraged. Clearly their schools failed them on reading comprehension, as it is not hard to understand.

I'm quite aware of that, as a result I, in the interest of putting this debate to bed (as my insomnia will not let me do so to myself) shall now summarize the evidence that contradicts the assertion that DE has put a cap on Condition Overload.

Firstly, let us analyze the mod in question via the Wiki. https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Condition_Overload

The description states "+120 Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target.", this will be crucial to my demonstration.

Now the offending words from the Workshop: "We’ve reduced this to 80% to make it almost as good as Primed Pressure Point, and 3 Status Types back to where it was originally."

Now, let us take a look at some other points of interest found throughout this thread and the Workshop thread.

Firstly, this is the description of their changes to Berserker: 

Berserker is changing from:

+30% Attack Speed (Max 75%) for 24s on Critical Hit

To:
Beserker Fury, cannot stack with Fury.
On Melee Kill:
+35% Attack Speed (Max 70%)  for 10s. Stacks up to 2x. 

Notice that there is a major point in both texts: (Max X%) and "Stacks up to 2x", this indicates a cap is applied both before and after.

Further on, there are the Galvanized mods:

Notice the "Stacks up to Nx" in every one of those mods, this also implies a cap.

Now onto the written description for the Before and After of Condition Overload from the same thread:

Condition Overload is changing from:
+120% Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target.

To

+80% Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target. 

Notice if you will, the lack of a (Max X%) or "Stacks up to Nx" in both descriptions, the former of which is word for word the same description as shown on the Wiki and the mod proper.

There is only one conclusion that can be drawn from this, DE has specified in every other aspect of the Workshop thread the caps and limits of each introduced mod and Arcane, however, the changed Condition Overload lacks this distinction in any form, instead only opting to change the percentage from 120 to 80.

Ergo, there is no intended cap in any way shape or form for Condition Overload, the assertion that "originally" refers to a version of the mod that theoretically did have a cap, only mentioned in a single Workshop thread before Update 26 (where our current Condition Overload was implemented) falls to pieces.

Q. E. D.

[George_PPS]

Why DE has to nerf melee HARD AGAIN? Who comes up all these nerfing ideas again and again???? To balance? Balance WHAT? Why not just make enemies stronger while making guns even stronger? The game is not a problem. It’s about keeping and enhancing fun factors players love about this game. 

[ReddyDisco]

46 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I'm quite aware of that, as a result I, in the interest of putting this debate to bed (as my insomnia will not let me do so to myself) shall now summarize the evidence that contradicts the assertion that DE has put a cap on Condition Overload.

Firstly, let us analyze the mod in question via the Wiki. https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Condition_Overload

The description states "+120 Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target.", this will be crucial to my demonstration.

Now the offending words from the Workshop: "We’ve reduced this to 80% to make it almost as good as Primed Pressure Point, and 3 Status Types back to where it was originally."

Now, let us take a look at some other points of interest found throughout this thread and the Workshop thread.

Firstly, this is the description of their changes to Berserker: 

Berserker is changing from:

+30% Attack Speed (Max 75%) for 24s on Critical Hit

To:
Beserker Fury, cannot stack with Fury.
On Melee Kill:
+35% Attack Speed (Max 70%)  for 10s. Stacks up to 2x. 

Notice that there is a major point in both texts: (Max X%) and "Stacks up to 2x", this indicates a cap is applied both before and after.

Further on, there are the Galvanized mods:

Notice the "Stacks up to Nx" in every one of those mods, this also implies a cap.

Now onto the written description for the Before and After of Condition Overload from the same thread:

Condition Overload is changing from:
+120% Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target.

To

+80% Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target. 

Notice if you will, the lack of a (Max X%) or "Stacks up to Nx" in both descriptions, the former of which is word for word the same description as shown on the Wiki and the mod proper.

There is only one conclusion that can be drawn from this, DE has specified in every other aspect of the Workshop thread the caps and limits of each introduced mod and Arcane, however, the changed Condition Overload lacks this distinction in any form, instead only opting to change the percentage from 120 to 80.

Ergo, there is no intended cap in any way shape or form for Condition Overload, the assertion that "originally" refers to a version of the mod that theoretically did have a cap, only mentioned in a single Workshop thread before Update 26 (where our current Condition Overload was implemented) falls to pieces.

Q. E. D.

at this point only a statement from a dev about what they meant with CO will vanquish these misconceptions and misunderstandings

[nslay]

11 hours ago, (PSN)JaxsonHammerkawk said:

I wanna say it was in the test build as well but I'm just going off of memory

You are correct, it really did briefly mention a cap of 3 in the mod description. I remember seeing this too... and I don't even watch any dev workshops or whatever!

[Galuf]

Il y a 6 heures, DealerOfAbsolutes a dit :

Melee was strictly worse than guns and was a weapon of last resort until the Acolyte mods were released.

Melee weapons were chosen solely at how well they allowed you to copter.

The elephant in the room is the ever growing drain on newer mods and how so many new weapons have 0 starting polarities.

DE really wants players to buy Forma.

Guns either need a way to get extra capacity, something similar to a stance or aura mod, or have their mods reduced in cost across the board by 2-3 drain.

- WTF are you talking about, copter weapons were one shotting everything with 2 mods early on and honestly even tipedo was good enough to be called overkill as well when it got released(it was the pinacle of the copter meta, before tipedo the vast majority of players did not bother even trying to copter as well ^^)...

- I agree that DE wants players to use more and more formas(would be stupid otherwise)

- Arcanes are not Mod slots

- Most guns won't feel better with an arcane slot and there are lots of breakpoints where it won't change a thing in terms of player experience

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Why DE has to nerf melee HARD AGAIN? Who comes up all these nerfing ideas again and again???? To balance? Balance WHAT? Why not just make enemies stronger while making guns even stronger? The game is not a problem. It’s about keeping and enhancing fun factors players love about this game. 

Welcome to the world of the Karen. 

Existing isn't enough. They won't be happy until warframe is crushed down to 2014 levels because "games shouldn't let us have all this power".

[(PSN)Mouseygril]

21 hours ago, (PSN)JaxsonHammerkawk said:

How is waiting for a smeeta proc to pick up a resource abusing the game? If it were everyone doing it would get a ban. 

What's happening is that's all a lot of people would do is wait for the Acolytes to spawn kill it for the SE drop then just leave it there and wait for the smeeta proc to go off then leave that one as well and this only works on survival so instead of actually doing Steel Path players are just endlessly running survival 

[ZenHare]

51 minutes ago, (PSN)Mouseygril said:

What's happening is that's all a lot of people would do is wait for the Acolytes to spawn kill it for the SE drop then just leave it there and wait for the smeeta proc to go off then leave that one as well and this only works on survival so instead of actually doing Steel Path players are just endlessly running survival 

Welcome to Warframe. That is how it has been since forever. If you are grinding resources, you are either going to grind survival or excavation missions.

[Parcialsobriedad]

On the weapon "buffs" topic im honestly surprised of the size of the bandaid used for this one. You would think that they would have looked at utility stats AT LEAST , such as magazine size , reload time and so on and LITERALLY slash the reload time by half on almost all weapons and increase magazine capacity for some weapons just because how often they do reload.

What we got is lackluster to say the least, "arsenal divide" will still be there and I will keep pressing e to mow down stuff. To add insult to injury , we also got more redundant grind (early helminth adopters dont get their subsumed warframes xp (--why--)  and pistol/ rifle arcanes could be combined into three arcanes instead of six ,as they do the exact same )

Very good changes overall , but there is stuff that sours the update and makes me wonder why they are doing such decisions.

[(PSN)JaxsonHammerkawk]

1 minute ago, Parcialsobriedad said:

On the weapon "buffs" topic im honestly surprised of the size of the bandaid used for this one. You would think that they would have looked at utility stats AT LEAST , such as magazine size , reload time and so on and LITERALLY slash the reload time by half on almost all weapons and increase magazine capacity for some weapons just because how often they do reload.

What we got is lackluster to say the least, "arsenal divide" will still be there and will press e still to mow down stuff. To add insult to injury , we also got more redundant grind (early helminth adopters dont get their subsumed warframes xp (--why--)  and pistol and rifle arcanes could be the same arcane as they do the same stuff )

Very good changes overall , but there is stuff that sours the update and makes me wonder why they are doing such decisions.

Agreed man, i hadn't even thought about the helminth xp/new levels until after i had written this. But i do hope DE gives everyone credit that subsumed all the frames not knowing there would be more ranks added at a later date. 

[Leqesai]

On 2021-06-20 at 10:10 AM, (PSN)JaxsonHammerkawk said:

TL:DR- Community: Man i wish guns could be a viable option for Steel Path. DE: You're right community! Let's nerf the crap out of melee! Oh yeah and let's give them some mods and arcanes that don't adress the problem at all... And while we're at it, let's poop on all the vets again that mainly stick around for the one reward that's actually good, rivens, and let's make Steel Essence despawn after 5 minutes cuz those crafty lil buggers are staying in missions for a long time and using a tool for its actual intended purpose.

Let me start by saying I'm an MR30 with around 4k hours into the game. I've spent well over $1k usd over the years on Prime Accesses and various Packs. This by no means makes me an expert, but I can confidently say I understand the game and it's content, and by default DE in general, than the majority of newer players. I have white knighted for DE for years. I've taken up for them when a large number of players quite the game for some of the same reasons I'm about to go over. And quite frankly I'm done with it. This last dev workshop for sisters of parvos is the last straw. I can no longer in good faith stand up for such incompetency. Yes i know, harsh words, but it's the truth. The problem was that guns were not a good viable option for Steel Path. DE's fix is to nerf melee, and give us band-aid mods and arcanes. A recurring theme in the last few years.

They say attack speed was too high, you couldn't see and appreciate the animations. Does the berserker changes fix that? No. Which is fine by me, i think lowering it too much would be too detrimental to weapons with slower attack speeds. The on kill change, and lowering of the duration to 10 secs is a bit much imo also. Being able to seamlessly and quickly mow down enemies with your blade of choice is a favorite playstyle to a lot of WF players. Rebecca herself said that they would never nerf melee too much because of that very reason. 

The changes to Blood Rush and Condition Overload. Oh boy. Blood Rush gets a third of its cc potential removed. Why again? Because there's too many red crits? Wow ok. If you take a look at all the melee weapons, there's actually a small percentage that can red crit with only Blood Rush. Condition Overload changes. Big Yikes on this one. Damage reduced to 80% per status. Ok that's not bad, CO was already a really powerful mod. Oh and it's going back to only 3 status types. What? That's what's in the dev notes. Go check it out because a lot of people are missing this HUGE little point. DE tell us you hate endurance players without telling us you hate endurance players. You know, like a lot of your veteran players. The ones that have and potentially will spend the most money with you guys. 

The gun mods and arcanes all actually look pretty decent, except that the majority are ON KILL. And that it's JUST 126 more arcanes you need to farm.  Lol, oh DE, youz guyz with your sense of humor. IF THE GUNS AREN'T POWERFUL ENOUGH TO GET A KILL IN THE FIRST PLACE, HOW ARE THESE SUPPOSED TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM. The whole reason for ALL of these changes. So now all you've done is make the very few viable Steel Path ranged weapons more powerful, which is good. But have done nothing for the 95% of the other ranged weapons, which is bad. 

Now the things that upset me the most. The reasons why i just may have to move on to other games. 

We have to unlock the arcane slots, for every ranged weapon, with some kind of adapter from Teshin for 15 Steel Essence EACH. This blows my mind. You're basically punishing us for your ineptitude. These should be FREE, on every gun. Period. Full Stop.

And then the icing on the proverbial cake. Steel Essence will now despawn after 5 minutes. Yea you say you've increased acolyte spawn times. You said when acolytes were first implemented in SP that they would spawn every 5 mins. Which is not the case the vast majority of times. So i suspect this acolyte "buff", is to actually get them to that 5 min time. This despawn timer isnt for any other resource in the game, just SE. Why is it such a big issue that we spend an hour in a survival just on the chance we get a proc from our smeetas? Ah too much kuva. Yes we've gotten more ways to farm it. Are they good? No. It takes 3500 kuva for 1 roll. The sortie reward is 6000 kuva which I've always thought was hilarious. Floods and siphons give what, 1200-1800. And don't get me started on arbi's. So as you can see Steel Essence is the only viable kuva farm. Yes we actually do need 100k kuva for 2 hours in a survival when the VAST majority of riven rolls are garbage. + Faction damage + faction damage - 100% multishot, FANTASTIC, there went 3500 kuva. Rivens are what keep a lot of us Vets playing the game. And you've constantly crapped on them. Lowering the dispo to .5 on new weapons makes rivens worthless on those, and makes prime weapons irrelevant and worse off than their non-primed with a riven counterpart. What are you guys thinking? Seriously it seems like every new nerf hits vets harder than anyone else. Rivens are the only good reward, that can keep on rewarding, if the supply of kuva is good. Do i really want to spend an hour in a survival so i can just roll my riven 5 times? No. I don't. 

DE I really wish WF could be better. The community has great ideas that you only seem to partially listen to. You're community reps are THE BEST in the business, hands down. Rebecca, Megan, all of them deserve a huge raise. Your art work and level design and just the whole look of WF is phenomenal. The fluidity of movement and gun and sword play are for the most part top notch. But whoever makes the decisions for all these nerfs and buffs, you guys need a hand. Hire some new blood. I'm not saying fire everyone, just, idk, actually LISTEN to the community. I really do hope the best for you guys. But if WF stays on its current path, this Tenno can't walk it with you. 

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, Parcialsobriedad said:

On the weapon "buffs" topic im honestly surprised of the size of the bandaid used for this one. You would think that they would have looked at utility stats AT LEAST , such as magazine size , reload time and so on and LITERALLY slash the reload time by half on almost all weapons and increase magazine capacity for some weapons just because how often they do reload.

What we got is lackluster to say the least, "arsenal divide" will still be there and I will keep pressing e to mow down stuff. To add insult to injury , we also got more redundant grind (early helminth adopters dont get their subsumed warframes xp (--why--)  and pistol/ rifle arcanes could be combined into three arcanes instead of six ,as they do the exact same )

Very good changes overall , but there is stuff that sours the update and makes me wonder why they are doing such decisions.

You're all gonna spam the helminth and have whatever you initially want really bad within the first week. No one that plays this game really has to wait a long time for anything. You're gonna be fine.

[Parcialsobriedad]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You're all gonna spam the helminth and have whatever you initially want really bad within the first week. No one that plays this game really has to wait a long time for anything. You're gonna be fine.

Yes , that is true to an extent , but i already farmed it.  Some sort of compensation is not too far fetched as seen for example in the railjack dirac to endo thingy.  I did the grind , i do not want to do anything similar to grinding again for the helminth system because i already fed all the frames a long time ago .

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

59 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

On 2021-06-08 at 12:33 AM, Leqesai said:

What could be a productive conversation regarding the game has deteriorated largely because you are not engaging in healthy discussion with those who think differently than you. If you just want to argue then continue going the direction you're going, but if you are serious about engagining in productive conversation I encourage you to be a little more respectful of other peoples' opinions.

[Kaggelos]

[DesertedSpirit]

The camel had its back broken multiple times before and preached by many different people before, but the camel is still alive, but oh well here we go again.

[xcrimsonlegendx]

2 hours ago, Parcialsobriedad said:

Yes , that is true to an extent , but i already farmed it.  Some sort of compensation is not too far fetched as seen for example in the railjack dirac to endo thingy.  I did the grind , i do not want to do anything similar to grinding again for the helminth system because i already fed all the frames a long time ago .

I already fed all of them to it already as well, and I don't care for the boring new perks they came up with. So I'm going to just casually level it up as new frames are release, I am in no kind of hurry to unlock them.

[Aldain]

12 minutes ago, DesertedSpirit said:

The camel had its back broken multiple times before and preached by many different people before, but the camel is still alive, but oh well here we go again.

Good thing the camel has amazing health insurance.

[IggySnow]

people complaining about the melee nerfs is so funny. melee has been absolutely broken since forever. To the point where every time they nerf melee it still completely blows guns out of the water by large margins. And guess what, even after these nerfs melee will still be broken as all hell.

The only thing these nerfs will accomplish is instead of level 200 enemies dying in .3 seconds they are going to die in .4 seconds. 

[WeeDao]

il y a 43 minutes, HerpDerpy a dit :

The only thing these nerfs will accomplish is instead of level 200 enemies dying in .3 seconds they are going to die in .4 seconds. 

@HerpDerpy wrong my friend^^

Since it's the slash procs that kills the enemies, the only difference is that instead of having enough slash to kill the enemy 10 time over, we'll only have enough to kill them 7 time over. 
the speed at wich they die will not be noticeable in actual gameplay, since killing an enemie that has 10 k health with 100k dmg or 50k dmg doesnt make a difference ^^

i say remove CO, remove bloodrush, and combo counter, THEN we can talk about gun and melee being comparable, but even then i'm still putting my money on melee being superior

[Jarriaga]

18 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Why DE has to nerf melee HARD AGAIN? Who comes up all these nerfing ideas again and again???? To balance? Balance WHAT? Why not just make enemies stronger while making guns even stronger? The game is not a problem. It’s about keeping and enhancing fun factors players love about this game. 

Ah... Here we have an example of Pablo's warning coming into fruition:

1) Refuse to nerf outliers.

2) Buff the rest to outlier levels.

3) The game is even more brain-dead easy and no longer engaging.

4) Enemies have to be buffed to deal with everything that has been buffed.

5) Entire game has been effectively nerfed because the original outlier was not nerfed.

 

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

DE talks about buffing guns, but after the update.

Those 9 Drain +30% IPS mods still exist.

 

[Jarriaga]

18 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

DE talks about buffing guns, but after the update.

Those 9 Drain +30% IPS mods still exist.

 

I think that's a testament to how much rampant powercreep has been introduced to the game over the years. Those 30% mods were the best of the best when introduced in update 11. Today they're a joke. Why are they a joke? Because 120% damage versions of those mods were introduced in update 16.

We will then think of the 120% mods as a joke when the 240% versions are added. Rinse and repeat.