Unpopular opinion: Single target guns will NEVER compete with AoE guns even if buffed to 100x as long as AoE weapons remain very convenient (Primed Sure Footed must die)

[-CdG-Zilchy]

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

800% crit chance and 200% Multishot...

At that damage level I feel like we could shoot one Bramma bolt at a Fomorian and it would explode like the Death Star.

Yeh it's going to be nuts quite frankly and if I can see that after glancing at the patch notes, I scratch my head wondering how the concept made it to that point.

[Aldain]

Just now, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Yeh it's going to be nuts quite frankly and if I can see that after glancing at the patch notes, I scratch my head wondering how the concept made it to that point.

Even I saw the insane potential after looking at that workshop, and I mod like a Caveman 90% of the time.

If I can see it I have no clue how DE can't.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

5 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I did a rough calculation after 5 minutes of reading the notes they gave us. It should be possible to achieve around 800% crit chance with a Kuva Bramma which is what, 10x crit dmg plus whatever crit multipliers we have. Honestly at that point, you throw out your Serration mod, add a riven and launch your crit dmg into the stratosphere. Clueless devs.

What. 800% isn't achievable on Kuva Bramma unless you're stacking like every source of crit chance in the game.
Critical Delay is 187%. Proton Jet is 120%. Galvanized Scope will be 120% + 40% x 5 = 320%. Max CC on a 2+ 1- Bramma riven is 122.5%. Adding all 4 gives us a crit chance bonus of 749.5%
Apply that to Kuva Bramma and we get 0.35 x (1 + 7.495) = ~297% CC on our Bramma. Add in Avenger (+45% flat) + Adraza kavat (+60% flat) brings us to 402% CC.
Unless you wanna do even more shenanigans with frame specific crit buffs (Harrow's 4 and Nidus's augmented 1), Bramma isn't reaching 800% CC

You can apply a extremely high crit chance bonus to any given primary weapon sure, but that's extremely inefficient to dedicate 4 mod slots to just CC.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

11 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

What. 800% isn't achievable on Kuva Bramma unless you're stacking like every source of crit chance in the game.
Critical Delay is 187%. Proton Jet is 120%. Galvanized Scope will be 120% + 40% x 5 = 320%. Max CC on a 2+ 1- Bramma riven is 122.5%. Adding all 4 gives us a crit chance bonus of 749.5%
Apply that to Kuva Bramma and we get 0.35 x (1 + 7.495) = ~297% CC on our Bramma. Add in Avenger (+45% flat) + Adraza kavat (+60% flat) brings us to 402% CC.
Unless you wanna do even more shenanigans with frame specific crit buffs (Harrow's 4 and Nidus's augmented 1), Bramma isn't reaching 800% CC

You can apply a extremely high crit chance bonus to any given primary weapon sure, but that's extremely inefficient to dedicate 4 mod slots to just CC.

Galvanised scope is going to add +320% crit chance just by itself before factoring in Multishot, including the other new Glavanised mod for that.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 minute ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Galvanised scope is going to add +320% crit chance just by itself.

Yes I noted that. If you meant "achieve an 700% critical chance bonus, which when applied to Kuva Bramma is around a 10x multiplier from crit damage while using Vital Sense" in your original post then sure, that is about right.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just now, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Yes I noted that. If you meant "achieve an 700% critical chance bonus, which when applied to Kuva Bramma is around a 10x multiplier from crit damage while using Vital Sense" in your original post then sure, that is about right.

Sorry my wording was off. Yes that's basically what I was getting at but I'm factoring in Galvanised Chamber as well. Your maths is far better than mine so I imagine you'd be able to find the exact number a lot more accurately but what I do know is it's going to be on the moon lol. And there's also Primary Deadhead to bump the base dmg for crit dmg calculations as well. I think the biggest issue will be figuring out the mod capacity.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

Just now, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Sorry my wording was off. Yes that's basically what I was getting at but I'm factoring in Galvanised Chamber as well. Your maths is far better than mine so I imagine you'd be able to find the exact number a lot more accurately but what I do know is it's going to be on the moon lol. And there's also Primary Deadhead to bump the base dmg for crit dmg calculations as well. I think the biggest issue will be figuring out the mod capacity.

Don't worry. When Dev Workshops have far more ambiguous wording this is nothing.

[Aldain]

Just now, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I think the biggest issue will be figuring out the mod capacity.

Well...a 5 Forma Kuva Bramma will have more than usual to work with.

I'd be surprised if it was that big of a problem to fit a standard "World Destroyer" build in one, much less a meme "700-800% crit rate" one.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

4 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Warframe's poor balance really rears its ugly head when looking at AoE weapons. Other games have at least 2 of the following 3 balancing factors when dealing with AoE weapons:

1. Selfharm or selfincapacitation
2. Ammo is scarce
3. While burst damage might be high, DPS is usually not great

Due to mods and generally poor balance, all 3 of these can be circumvented / non-existant in Warframe:

1. Primed Sure Footed removes selfincapacitation - Imo, this is arguably one of the LESSER issues in Warframe
2. Ammo is abundant, via mutation mods and ammo pizzas - Not necessarily the biggest issue in Warframe either, since ammo has basicly been a non-issue for a long time.
3. AoE weapons are not only higher in burst, but ALSO in DPS! - Now THIS is a huge issue!

It's a broader issue of Warframe  where players are able to circumvent its fundamental systems through modding.

Ammo? Energy? Health? Eventually, these almost become as non-existent as stamina.

The days of scavenging lockers for energy, health and ammo is a distant memory for veterans.

Mission complexity is just modded out on the modding screen.

It's one thing to mod in order to mitigate weaknesses, but another to straight up remove weaknesses.

The Bramma is supposed to be balanced by poor ammo economy, but that's just an Exilus slot away from being fixed. Exilus slots were honestly a mistake.

Just like it is with Crit mods, some weapons based on stats or mechanics get absurd value out of mods that would otherwise be useless on other weapons.

The Exergis gets a lot of value from Ammo Stock as the 2nd follow up shot really helps against Shield Gating, but Ammo Stock isn't an Exilus mod.

Part of the Bramma's power is that the very mod that solves its weakness fits in the Exilus slot.

At this point, I'm wondering why Punch-through mods aren't Exilus mods. Basically useless on weapons with innate AOE and detrimental on weapons that rely on impact detonations.

[0_The_F00l]

I actually have a different radical idea ,

make most AOE weapons SHRAPNEL based with very little punch through (like 0.2 to 0.5).

So the radial damage is actually like an omni directional Shotgun blast.

[killerJoke66]

p.sure footed must die ? how bout no . and ancient specters also exist so doesnt matter 

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

11 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

In the past, the only thing properly balancing AoE weapons from flat-out dominating the game was their rather big drawback: They could kill you. This translated to said weapons having a direct risk vs reward formula in which you could trade safety for efficiency. This resulted in many AoE weapons not being used at all because it was too easy to kill yourself when a teammate crossed your path, but it allowed for single-target weapons to have a purpose.

Want safety? Go for single target. You won't ever kill yourself. Want to spread-out your damage more effectively? Go AoE, but be careful. Simple tradeoffs. Nothing too convenient. You had mods like Cautious Shot, but this didn't work as well because 1% of 10 million was still going to vaporize you, but at least there was a form of mitigation that didn't outright remove the only balancing mechanism that mattered.

But then DE decided to remove self-damage and replace it with self-stagger while apparently being oblivious to the existence of (Primed) Sure Footed. This is the exact same situation as the Decaying Dragon Key with shield gating, unintentionally turning a drawback or handicap into merely a nuisance at worst if not an actual benefit as well.

This effectively removed any form of drawback from AoE weapons. Replacing a QoL Exilus mod with the ability to go shotgun Kuva Bramma/Ogris? WORTH IT! So what else is there to hold back AoE weapons? Nothing. 

I often see in these boards the opinion that a single target gun that deals 10 million damage to 1 enemy is less desirable that an AoE weapon that deals 1 million damage to 10 enemies. How can you argue against such reasoning in scenarios other than boss fights in a horde shooter? Efficiency is king after all. It's not about how much damage you deal to an enemy, but rather how many enemies are dying as this affects how many enemies are rolling their droptables to drop life support or resources. Extra damage is not going to improve the odds of you getting what you want, but extra dead enemies will.

And this problem will be further accentuated with Galvanized mods and merciless arcanes. These mods and arcanes stack. Their maximum values can be reached significantly faster by killing more enemies in a wider area. These mods and arcanes are plain and simply the death of single-target weapons. AoE weapons with Primed Firestorm benefit the most from these. So what do single-target weapons have in their favor? Precision? Sure. How desirable is that outside boss battles? Players have to understand that this is something that can not be fixed without a nerf to AoE weapons, as no buff to the Soma will ever make it be desirable against the Ogris when doing Survival or Disruption. 

And since making weapons directly weaker by changing stats may simply not be enough, the only nerfs that would matter are those that would directly affect convenience:

- (Primed) Sure Footed no longer protects you from stagger triggered from your own weapons. It only protects you from stagger caused by enemies.

- On top of staggering you (Because Primed Sure Footed is now dead), re-introduce self-damage, but code it so it deals damage in relation to your own health. In this case 90% self-damage means your health drops to 10%. This ensures self-damage is a consideration, but it will never kill you. Hard-code Chroma so he doesn't benefit from this.

- Cautious Shot should then be your only protection against self-stagger and self-damage, but even at 90% this is still too convenient because it's a gun exilus mod. Thus, this mod should not be exilus, and should clash with Firestorm (Rename it Cautious Firestorm) in order to further decrease convenience by virtue of having to sacrifice a true mod slot and being unable to have your cake and eat it too (AoE range or AoE protection, not both).

This is the only real thing that will allow for single-target weapons to become relevant again unless you wish to present the argument that all weapons should be AoE, which is not a reasonable request in any way, shape, or form for the long-term health of the game.

Popular or unpopular opinion idk 🤷 

AoE weapons and single target weapons aren’t supposed to be competing with each other.

In warframe, ideally you’ll have something automatic to help with nullifiers. Something AoE to deal with mobs, and something single target to deal with priority targets.

They only real issue in my mind is that AOE weapons can straight up match or exceed the damage of single target weapons, to an extent.

Like I’m sure the Bramma couldn’t top the Rubico in single target damage. But it can top most weapons. 
 

I know there are other AOE weapons besides the Bramma, but it’s a good case in point for how that balance has shifted.

But yeah, I’ve played a lot of games like path of exile, diablo etc, and in a lot of ways warframe reminds me of them, more so than most shooters.

Just about all of my builds in most games will get an ability or weapon specifically for crowd control, clearing out mobs. Then something for dealing with bosses or elite targets.

Playing an entire game with a single attack would get incredibly boring.

But yeah my point is, single target and AoE weapons aren’t suppose to be competing with each other, and that’s something DE are going to need to come to terms with.

Honestly, if I was to propose a solution, do away with “primary and secondary slots” altogether, and allow players to equip whatever weapons they want to whatever slot they want.

Cause the thing is, if you do decide to use a bramma, you’re left trying to find a secondary weapon that can deal reasonable single target damage? Of which there are.... well, none. Not compared to primaries.

[-Augustus-]

13 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

I'm not addressing you further. We've done this before.

Now just extend that courtesy to all the rest of us, and we can stop seeing this click-bait nonsense.

[ebrl]

8 hours ago, Aldain said:

Not sure about the practicality of extending the disposition method to other mods personally, but they're gonna need to do something, otherwise we're gonna hit levels of power creep that shouldn't be possible.

DE: "is that a challenge?"

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, -Augustus- said:

Now just extend that courtesy to all the rest of us, and we can stop seeing this click-bait nonsense.

Please add me to your ignore list if you think this is clickbait or trolling. Save yourself from any future thread or post made by me.

[Jarriaga]

4 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

p.sure footed must die ? how bout no . and ancient specters also exist so doesnt matter 

It seems you only read the thread title.

[DebrisFlow]

22 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

This is the only real thing that will allow for single-target weapons to become relevant again unless you wish to present the argument that all weapons should be AoE, which is not a reasonable request in any way, shape, or form for the long-term health of the game.

Aside from your suggestions, the only other meaningful way i see to give true relevance to single target weapons is mission design. Designing new game modes (or re-designing existing ones, maybe SP only, maybe on single nodes only) in such a way that indiscriminate killing is penalizing instead of rewarding toward the mission objective. Forcing precision gameplay in the mission objective itself: i.e. (just a badly tought example to give an idea) a "selective exterminate" where killing only a specific unit type contributes to the mission counter while murdering all of the others decreases it.

Drawbacks? unluckily a ton: such a design would just multiply griefing potential, misunderstanding (just look at Volatile mission), elitism and toxicity; lots of players would lament that this would not be casual friendly and against their nuking power fantasy. But i believe that it would not only make single target weapons shine (maybe too much, being mandatory), but also rediscover single target warframe abilities and true CC, intended as incapacitating enemies, as opposed to the actual CC-by-just-killing-everything. 

TLDR: just forget all i said because DE mission design and general player demand is just adrift in the opposite direction.

[Aldain]

7 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

It seems you only read the thread title.

I mean, to be fair the title is a bit misleading, especially around the Warframe forums where we have threads saying that and actually MEANING to remove things.

[RLanzinger]

Il y a 12 heures, 0_The_F00l a dit :

I actually have a different radical idea ,

make most AOE weapons SHRAPNEL based with very little punch through (like 0.2 to 0.5).

So the radial damage is actually like an omni directional Shotgun blast.

BEST IDEA OF THE YEAR !!!👍 👍 👍🙇‍♂️

[Animalon29]

with the new workshop I notice that yes, single target weapons are going to be the same, more damage but the same.
the new Arcane seems ok but could be better, i thought a few days ago that arcanes would be great for weapons then i saw the post and was like a miracle to me but then i saw the arcane they are going to give to us and meh, it was just damge. 
Even without the new mods anything below 90+ level die in a single hit in normal start chart.

maybe in the future we could see arcanes that could put single target weapons vs aoe weapons in a good spot.

maybe an arcane that when doing a critical hit on heashot the weapon lauch a kind of ability, could it be a mini avalanche, dealing damage and freezing enemies, or "embert's inferno" alike power but at lowe scale, or any other element with a unique behavior, something fun to see and use, and ofcourse make it scale based on mods. for high levels.
 

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

8 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Please add me to your ignore list if you think this is clickbait or trolling. Save yourself from any future thread or post made by me.

 

43 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I mean, to be fair the title is a bit misleading, especially around the Warframe forums where we have threads saying that and actually MEANING to remove things.

Yeah the title is a bit click-baity but it’s a good discussion. It’s kind of your MO I’ve noticed: slightly click-baity title to get eyes on the thread, but always a well constructed argument behind it and you obviously care about the long-term health of the game.

I guess it’s the title that’s causing these outlandish responses? Idk, I thought it was a good read though. Keep fighting the good fight ✊.

[(PSN)spartacus65]

Go home to mommy and stop all the whining,some of us play hard to get where we are cupcakes. Not everyone gets a trophy. Cheers.

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

Well, as long as most enemies remain equally susceptible to all forms of damage the only measurable quality of any given source of damage will be its DPS, and it is basically impossible to balance the damage and convenience of the entirety of the arsenal, there will always be outliers. At this point DE should really consider dividing damage sources in classes, i.e. Melee, Precision, gun AoE, and Ability, and design enemies to be selectively, but visibly, resistant/vulnerable to one or more classes, or with multiple layers (like shields, breakable pieces of armor, energy fields, etc...) that can be disabled with the correct class. But of course this would need decently designed enemies and controllable damage output from the players, and DE knows only how to make flashy fodder that is annihilated seconds after it spawns, and exacerbating power creep. 

[Xyngrr]

I used and was a proponent of self damage as a balance mechanic when it was lethal even though the anemic damage did not warrant the risk. I did want it to be turned into percentage based on self with a cap so you could take a single hit without nuking yourself for the reasons you note ( stupid kubrows ) so you proposing this has my support.
Making Primed Surefooted only affect externally inflicted knockdown is also fine by me, I'll still be running it for exactly that reason.
Cautious Shot ( as I've always said ) should be a warframe mod, not a weapon mod. If you want anything more than one chance at shoddy trigger control you should have to mod your frame for it AND the protection should affect any selfdamage weapons you have. This lets you run both primary and secondary self damage without losing two modslots to the same mod in different weapons. Additionally, if selfdamage is re-introduced Cautious Shot ( at max rank ) should prevent stagger almost entirely while significantly reducing the self-explode portion as well, IE shooting your toecaps gets you 95% health damage and max stagger, with the mod it's reduced to 30% and the slightest of flinch. Mitigation, not immunity.

Considering there was only a few weapons that had self damage and other equally effective weapons that did not explode the user existed, self damage was a niche thing. This was used by those already choosing not to engage the risk as a plank in the platform to remove it entirely, which turned into a howling crescendo from the wider community in general when they added the shiny darling kuva bramma. With the wider prevalence of self stagger on weapons now this is likely going to get REEE'd out of existence by a much larger group of affected players who don't wanna have risk in their power fantasy. ( For the record, I DO mitigate risks I don't like in game, but rarely is that by socially engineering their mechanics out of the game. I preferr mods, forma, and swearing at my monitor. )

This is very much a deja vu argument in a new suit though.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, (PSN)spartacus65 said:

Go home to mommy and stop all the whining,some of us play hard to get where we are cupcakes. Not everyone gets a trophy. Cheers.

I don't understand what you're trying to imply or how this relates to my observations. What would be the participation trophy in this case? Or are you implying that that somehow I want for this game to be made easier? And what does that have to do with not allowing for AoE weapons to bury single target weapons even more with Galvanized mods?