Unpopular opinion: Single target guns will NEVER compete with AoE guns even if buffed to 100x as long as AoE weapons remain very convenient (Primed Sure Footed must die)

[Jarriaga]

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

I mean, to be fair the title is a bit misleading, especially around the Warframe forums where we have threads saying that and actually MEANING to remove things.

 

1 hour ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

 

Yeah the title is a bit click-baity but it’s a good discussion. It’s kind of your MO I’ve noticed: slightly click-baity title to get eyes on the thread, but always a well constructed argument behind it and you obviously care about the long-term health of the game.

I guess it’s the title that’s causing these outlandish responses? Idk, I thought it was a good read though. Keep fighting the good fight ✊.

Fair enough. Points taken for next time.

[kgabor]

I don't think this would solve anything, beside making a niche mod entirely pointless.

Self damage simply needs to make a comeback, or the damage dealt by AOE needs to be readjusted so that they would take a certain frame-weapon combination to be used effectively, or both.

[Unibot]

В 20.06.2021 в 23:33, Tiltskillet сказал:

Hey, you said "drawback", not me.  That word only makes sense in comparison to something else that doesn't have the drawback.

And sorry, this thread is about single target weapons too.  It says so right in the title.

So, in that context, falloff isn't a drawback, it's a reduction of an advantage.  Anything a weapon gets beyond the first target is an advantage, especially if it gets it inherently.

AoE weapons -do- have actual drawbacks though.  Maybe focus on those?

So hitting multiple targets is an advantage but reduced damage on doing so the further they are from explosion center - is not a drawback ? There are  aoe weapons with large explosion radius that allows you to deal full damage to a large area, but not all of them.
Call that whatever you want, it doesn't change the fact that most aoe weapons can't do full damage in large areas.

[fo3nixz]

bring back self damage, boom and u dead.. was fun times in arbi when your own cat killed you in a solo

[Monolake]

Yeah it's a fact that AOE spam has destroyed this game on a fundamental level when its not a shooter anymore. DE never learned from the old problems like Tonkor domination and kept on making OP AOE  weapons and abilities.

And you actually *can* balance it by making AOE limited in power so it only clears trash and lets people easily farm low level missions if they want to but doesnt dominate the game everywhere destroying core gameplay. While single target guns should be much stronger to have their niche in killing big targets and high levels. For positive examples - designs like Nox which you have to shoot in the head and cant just wipe away like the trash mobs. Or Eidolons finally giving snipers it's niche.

But then DE made the same mistake creating monstrosities like Brama and Knukor with very high-stats on top of being multitarget - once again destroying the game and making other guns completely obsolete. Compare Knukor to Amprex and Atomos - they are good guns but they never dominated because they have limits - they were far more balanced.

And don't get me started on self-damage change, it was so badly hamfistedly implemented that it destroyed already unpopular niche weapons instead of improving anything. And the 10-rank mod that removed self-suicide doesn't even work on preventing knockdowns, so bad and untested and never fixed - they dont care.

And finally this new 'rebalance' will not rebalance anything, it will exaggerate the disparity between good guns  - that are already fine for SP btw - and the bad guns which no one uses and which will remain bad and unused. Then even melee players will start complaining again when lazy spam of AoE weapons buffed by new mods and arcanes will become even more pervasive. And the best 'melee' is 'throw glaive to nuke the room' too, hilarious.

But who cares, people keep on playing WF cause it's a shiny farmfest, despite gameplay problems. And no one at DE will play attention unless some  youtubber starts to nag them personally - that seems to be the only thing that makes DE notice glaring issues.

[LockingSoul]

i dont know, akarius got borderline trashed because of its extreme self stagger

[Deminisis]

I would rather see DE address the oversaturated horde gameplay before trying to make more AOE changes.

I'm not going to bring a single shot rifle to SP when I got the max spawn rate horde flooding into the room like water from a broken dam.

Besides, I'll just swap to Handspring if Primed Sure Footed gets self knockback resistance removed.

[Lakais]

The ONLY way that single target precision weapons will become a thing in warframe is if DE implements more enemies like Nox, Thumper and Lech Krill. Enemies that require you to actually aim. This doesn't mean that enemies become immune to AoE damage or are otherwise immortal, Thumper is a clear sign as to how that is not the best idea. But only that the use of precision fire can drop a larger number of dangerous enemies faster then just explosive spam. 

I have always held the belief that as a general rule, weapons and abilities that deal damage would be in two broad categories in which for the same amount of energy or ammo used, a single-target precision weapon or ability would be considerably more destructive. 

[Hyrianeth]

One does not simply put an unmeasurable amount of begging for years to the trash cuz "you feel like it"

We asked for years to have self damage  removed, we finally got it. They had to put self stagger to balance it, but Primed Sure Foot was the saving grace.

Now you want us back to square one? Hell nah. 

[Skoomaseller]

On 2021-06-21 at 4:13 AM, Zhoyzu said:

The solution is punch through on your single target weapons. The problem is that even with punch through it has to be modded for in most cases and even innate punch through on some of those weapons isnt enough. Giving non-AoE weapons all a default 2m punch through or w/e the value is would go a long way to bringing the weapons in line with their AoE counterparts.

 

Idk how many people remember the Flux rifle with its 'may as well be infinite' punch through that would damage everything to the beams max length. You could literally cut through swaths of infested and grineer as they all like to bunch up and funnel themselves. This was well before damage 2.0 that removed rainbow builds and introduced viral, corrosive and the others.

As it stand the only exilus mods for primary/secondary worth equipping are the ammo mutations and only for specific cases. Perhaps its time to make those punch through mods exilus mods as well.

If all these single target weapons had infinite or close to punch through beam weapons would likely be at the top of the food chain so we cant also just not limit punch through or well just end up in the same boat.

I like the punch through idea. Add infinite PT for all weapons, but only when shooting enemies, not enemies through walls/cover. 

[Jarriaga]

10 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

I like the punch through idea. Add infinite PT for all weapons, but only when shooting enemies, not enemies through walls/cover. 

Hallway AoE vs room AoE.

Everything is AoE. This effectively removes the concept of single-target weapons from existence.

[Skoomaseller]

7 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Hallway AoE vs room AoE.

Everything is AoE. This effectively removes the concept of single-target weapons from existence.

good 

[Jarriaga]

1 minute ago, Skoomaseller said:

good 

I don't agree that's healthy for the game.

[Skoomaseller]

18 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't agree that's healthy for the game.

killing 5 birds with one stone is more efficient than killing 5 birds with 5 stones 

in a game like warframe you'll oftentimes find yourself fighting enemies grouped together, in which case you'd want to have some form of AOE with you.

A single stray enemy/enemies spread out is/are easily dealt with any weapon; guns with no punch through (single target), beam weps, melee, etc. But when it comes to groups, which is what you'll encounter more often than just a singe target, you'd want something more efficient. 

my suggestion was to add infinite pt to all guns that are currently single target focused, that is, ballistic rifles, narrow beam guns like the flux rifle, and so on, to add some way for these weapons to match, or at least compete or keep up with their aoe cousins like the ignis, amprex, k nukor, ogris, plasmor/catchnoon when it comes to thinning hoards, or spreading damage in terms of efficiency. because right now, you don't really see anyone using single target weapons 

it will always be more fun to be an efficient killing machine in this game, otherwise you'd just stick to solo

[(XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK]

What if we had an arcane for single target primary and secondary's that will give them the ability to damage multiple targets at once. Like the Arcane Seeker for kitguns. Where the projectile homes in on another target after a headshot kill. Maybe add one like this for primaries and secondaries but make it on body shots and not headshots. Give single target weapons the ability to act almost like an AOE/multi-target weapon via use from an arcane.    

I feel the single target weapons could be on par with the AOE in terms of efficiency, just maybe through a different functional avenue. Don't pigeon hole players into wanting to choose just one weapon type because that one is the most efficient but give every weapon the ability to be just as potentially efficient from their base function through the help of a special arcane. Every gun will have its drawbacks, but atleast give every gun the ability to be something players will want to try and use not because its the most popular choice but because they enjoy the gun but would like it to be on par with the popular weapons. 

[Jarriaga]

22 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

killing 5 birds with one stone is more efficient than killing 5 birds with 5 stones 

 

I am not arguing that. The problem is that pushes the game towards nothing more than mindlessness in which nothing short if mayor forward power-creep is ever relevant. That has killed games in the past, and even DE publicly acknowledged that players tend to leave WF when they grow too powerful because the game becomes too easy and thus boring.

I'm pretty certain they wouldn't acknowledge such a glaring player retention problem with their game if they didn't have data supporting it.

This is what I say it's not healthy for the game. Fun? Sure, for a while. But long-term it causes more harm than good.

[ZenHare]

 

23 hours ago, Deminisis said:

I would rather see DE address the oversaturated horde gameplay before trying to make more AOE changes.

I'm not going to bring a single shot rifle to SP when I got the max spawn rate horde flooding into the room like water from a broken dam.

Besides, I'll just swap to Handspring if Primed Sure Footed gets self knockback resistance removed.

This is the elephant in the SP room. If you have a horde of enemies and any of them can kill you in a split second, you either kill them with ranged AOE or melee (AOE again). Even Nyx with CC can't deal with re-spawning enemies one by one. You just get swarmed.

[Tiltskillet]

On 2021-06-22 at 9:09 AM, Deminisis said:

Besides, I'll just swap to Handspring if Primed Sure Footed gets self knockback resistance removed.

More people using Handspring and other mods would be one of the positives, IMO.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

Hallway AoE vs room AoE.

Everything is AoE. This effectively removes the concept of single-target weapons from existence.

I admit I had some hesitation about this too...but then I remembered that I equip punch through on my ST weapons like, 95% of the time.  So clearly I have no actual compunctions about it.

I'd also note that some of the most archetypical ST weapons in the game--most snipers and bows--have some inherent punch through already.

And it doesn't have to be inherent, infinite body PT on all of these weapons.  Maybe it's more semiautomatics than autos, maybe it's not infinite.  Maybe PT mods are strengthened a great deal, or made exilus so that it's still an opt-in mechanic.

Anyway, there's promise in the general approach.

 

[Skoomaseller]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

I am not arguing that. The problem is that pushes the game towards nothing more than mindlessness in which nothing short if mayor forward power-creep is ever relevant. That has killed games in the past, and even DE publicly acknowledged that players tend to leave WF when they grow too powerful because the game becomes too easy and thus boring.

I'm pretty certain they wouldn't acknowledge such a glaring player retention problem with their game if they didn't have data supporting it.

This is what I say it's not healthy for the game. Fun? Sure, for a while. But long-term it causes more harm than good.

it is already heading there, or already has, adding my suggestion is really just QoL.