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Either it's some gimmick like Nekros, Trinity or Wukong or it's kill them before they kill you. Rhinos Iron skin is tanking but I can't helminth that onto everything and being let to live that long with the current games weapons is overpowerd. Because the weapons. Not because I get to live a little longer. 

I'm not enjoying that as much as I once did. I'm bored of dying in the blink of an eye from either a stray shot or two ticks from a status effect without my protective ability active which ever one that might be. 

This could come into the weapon nerf discussion with how room clearing is pretty much the same as not dying. There isn't much to it. I for one am really bored of just deleting rooms to avoid being deleted in an instant if I don't. 

I'm not elaborating as much as I could be because I'm just exhausted. This could even be turned into some "I miss the old days" post when weapons weren't nuclear. 

How are you guys? And what's your take on the state of warframes space ninja combat? 

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Just now, Hubjump said:

And what's your take on the state of warframes space ninja combat? 

Too polarized, either you're Mike Tyson fighting toddlers or racing to fire a nuke before the enemy does the same at you.

With VERY little middle ground.

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Tanking?

no such thing

you either die in 1 shot, or have some cheeze ability that makes you immune to dying in the first place

 

there's no mechanic of just having massive HP that takes forever to whittle down in the traditional RPG "Tanking" sense.

?maybe Rhino was meant to do that, at very low level, years ago, before power creep. But nothing scales so it breaks down

-there's the problem, Warframes need to scale better

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Depends on what you see as "tanking" considering we have many layers of damage reduction to make us nearly immortal with 99% damage reduction, blocking using melee making you immune to damage from front side and arcane enhancements making you harder to kill, and adaptation

Many games are being like this though, where you stack as much DR (damage reduction) as possible as a unit or a team or you're dead with one hit so either we adapt with current setup or we're seeing more buff & nerf in the future to balance things out

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19 minutes ago, Hubjump said:

Either it's some gimmick like Nekros, Trinity or Wukong or it's kill them before they kill you. Rhinos Iron skin is tanking but I can't helminth that onto everything and being let to live that long with the current games weapons is overpowerd. Because the weapons. Not because I get to live a little longer. 

I'm not enjoying that as much as I once did. I'm bored of dying in the blink of an eye from either a stray shot or two ticks from a status effect without my protective ability active which ever one that might be. 

This could come into the weapon nerf discussion with how room clearing is pretty much the same as not dying. There isn't much to it. I for one am really bored of just deleting rooms to avoid being deleted in an instant if I don't. 

I'm not elaborating as much as I could be because I'm just exhausted. This could even be turned into some "I miss the old days" post when weapons weren't nuclear. 

How are you guys? And what's your take on the state of warframes space ninja combat? 

I treat tanking like ice cream, i don't intend to do it often. the warframe i use for it is Atlas, not because he is the best but because he makes tanking fun. a combination of Rumbled and Rubble Heap makes you actually feel like a immortal rock monster in most levels when you can actually cycle into it.

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hace 7 minutos, Hubjump dijo:

How are you guys? And what's your take on the state of warframes space ninja combat? 

Very well, thnx

As for my opinion on WF combat:

-We are not space ninjas at all, in fact I'd say that we are more like ronins or templars because we lost our masters and we do what we do because we want to protect others, you could say that we are mercenaries but I dont think a mercenary will let its payment be cheap crap.

-As in a lot of games, level system is BS. False difficulty because they couldnt program competent enemies, mindblowing puzzles or whatever.

As for the tanking topic:

-Tanking is just how many time you can be invincible/invulnerable like with rev's 2 or rhino's skin since while you will most likely be able to kill infinite enemies of infinite levels, you will reach a point where a single bullet can kill you and you cant do anything to it. Another reason of why the level system is so bad since it doesnt rely on the players skill but in the players numbers and as I said thats just lazy design.

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33 minutes ago, Hubjump said:

Either it's some gimmick like Nekros, Trinity or Wukong or it's kill them before they kill you. Rhinos Iron skin is tanking but I can't helminth that onto everything and being let to live that long with the current games weapons is overpowerd. Because the weapons. Not because I get to live a little longer. 

I'm not enjoying that as much as I once did. I'm bored of dying in the blink of an eye from either a stray shot or two ticks from a status effect without my protective ability active which ever one that might be. 

This could come into the weapon nerf discussion with how room clearing is pretty much the same as not dying. There isn't much to it. I for one am really bored of just deleting rooms to avoid being deleted in an instant if I don't. 

I'm not elaborating as much as I could be because I'm just exhausted. This could even be turned into some "I miss the old days" post when weapons weren't nuclear. 

How are you guys? And what's your take on the state of warframes space ninja combat? 

Several times in your post you mentioned that you were bored and exhausted. Perhaps you should take a short break?

Rhino used to be the signature tank frame when it was first introduced. But nowadays with the new mods and skills from each updates, every warframe can build multiple ways to survive so Rhino's ironskin has been out shadowed. That's not saying Rhino is useless, just mean Rhino player need to be adapt new playstyles than being an original tank.

You are right about this game has become full offense, basically speed kill and rush missions. Unfortunately that's just how the game is designed. Because this is grind game, people just want to clear mission and move on. Can you blame player who wants to speed up mission after doing same thing for the 1000th times?

Edited by Godmode_Ash
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2 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

Because this is grind game, people just want to clear mission and move on. Can you blame player wants to speed up after doing same mission 1000 times?

It could be easily supplemented by having a slower mission give the same reward as doing a faster mission three times. 

Truth be told, look at us all... we're still doing the same thing 1000 times with little to no change. I'd genuinely say in this case less will be more. Pretty sure you'd get bored nuking the same room 30,000 times as much as you would clearing it at a slightly slower pace for the same reward/time ratio. A little bit of choice wouldn't hurt but the state of current weapons and metas tend to deny that. 

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1 minute ago, Hubjump said:

It could be easily supplemented by having a slower mission give the same reward as doing a faster mission three times. 

Truth be told, look at us all... we're still doing the same thing 1000 times with little to no change. I'd genuinely say in this case less will be more. Pretty sure you'd get bored nuking the same room 30,000 times as much as you would clearing it at a slightly slower pace for the same reward/time ratio. A little bit of choice wouldn't hurt but the state of current weapons and metas tend to deny that. 

We already have those slower missions tho. Doesn't survival/defense qualify as "slower" mission?

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I hadn't gotten notifications for the other responses, but the consensus seems to be that things just scale poorly. 
But I recall that damage reduction in other games is often used as the primary factor to determine what is tanky and what isn't but those games don't have numbers large enough to one tap you around every corner and about 5 of em.

There are always avenues to be taken so it's just what DE decides. 

Also thanks for the over-simplified fixes. Aside from getting in the way of some min maxed builds that's great advice. 

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37 minutes ago, Hubjump said:

I'm bored of dying in the blink of an eye from either a stray shot or two ticks from a status effect without my protective ability active which ever one that might be. 

Stop lying, nothing can one shot you anymore since shield gating. You have things like Arcane Guardian, the whole Umbral set, Augur set, Adaptation, Rapid Resilance, Rolling guard, hell even the Decaying dragon key method (and I'm sure I'm missing a lot of mods)... Plus a lot of Helminth abilities to remove status and heal yourself (some of them do both at the same time with and without aguments). With the shield gating mechanics added even Inaros lost some value. Even just rolling (without Rolling guard!) grants you damage reduction.

Instead doing this thread, why you couldn't ask for advices? Post your builds, people likes to help a lot here, no one has to know everything on this game and everyone at some point did idiotic builds that weren't viable for some playstyles. 

Hell, I play as operator without eHP enhancements on steel path, the operator doesn't even have shields ffs!

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5 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

 

Stop lying, nothing can one shot you anymore since shield gating. You have things like Arcane Guardian, the whole Umbral set, Augur set, Adaptation, Rapid Resilance, Rolling guard, hell even the Decaying dragon key method (and I'm sure I'm missing a lot of mods)... Plus a lot of Helminth abilities to remove status and heal yourself (some of them do both at the same time with and without aguments). With the shield gating mechanics added even Inaros lost some value. Even just rolling (without Rolling guard!) grants you damage reduction.

Instead doing this thread, why you couldn't ask for advices? Post your builds, people likes to help a lot here, no one has to know everything on this game and everyone at some point did idiotic builds that weren't viable for some playstyles. 

Hell, I play as operator without eHP enhancements on steel path, the operator doesn't even have shields ffs!

Arcane Guardian, Rolling guard and Adaptation are great.
You're not wrong but these don't completely suffice what I mean. I can't say we'll agree on how we enjoy the game from that response but that's alright. 

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2 hours ago, Hubjump said:

I'm bored of dying in the blink of an eye from either a stray shot or two ticks from a status effect without my protective ability active which ever one that might be. 

This.

For me, at one point "dying" in warframe just stop representing conservative meaning of dying in videogames (that you failed, you suck, you didn't pay enough attention, or too late to react accordingly). If you already built your loadouts properly, dying in warframe is just being unlucky. So i stop feeling bad about it.

===========

MHW actually had this problem on its first year. Attack numbers kept getting higher with every updates, but health and armor numbers stayed the same, the results was players killing the monsters really fast, or monsters oneshotting players. Whoever faster wins.

Thankfully the devs realized it just before it was too late and made necessary balancing. We still have oneshots, but most if not all of them are clearly telegraphed (kudos to the animation, sound, and visual effects team) so they're not cheap shots. if you die it's your fault not your gear's.

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Try Lavos with over 1000 HP / 1000 armor, or Grendel with 3000+HP / 800+ armor. With adaptation and arcane guardian or grace.

You take damage and can die, but you won't be insta killed, at least for the first hour of Steel Path survival.

And you can also infuse abilities : Warcry Lavos, Gloom grendel...

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Just now, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

Try Lavos with over 1000 HP / 1000 armor, or Grendel with 3000+HP / 800+ armor. With adaptation and arcane guardian or grace.

You take damage and can die, but you won't be insta killed, at least for the first hour of Steel Path survival.

And you can also infuse abilities : Warcry Lavos, Gloom grendel...

The problem is needing to have a 95% damage reduction mod stacked on top of 70 - 90% armor DR to avoid a one shot from basic enemies at high level. 

You know something that could help at least partially with the one shot nonsense? Make Armor Mods flat bonuses to Armor instead of percentile. 
Likewise, Arcane Grace should be a flat HP per second regen. 

Why? Because Armor and Grace being percentile means that frames that have the easiest time surviving due to base stats are the ones who benefit the most from survivability mods. 

Or give proper Damage Reduction mods to Shields so we aren't cheesing Shield Gates with tiny shield maximums. 

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Why tank, when you can cc and funk with the enemies instead? 😂

I've been playing a lot more with Loki and Nova lately. The former can irradiated a tile and you can either watch everyone start clubbing each other to death or you can go in is and stealth shank them, the latter slows everyone to a crawl and you can pick them off at your leisure.

If I do play tank, Gloom Inaros says hi 

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This guy never heard of Atlas, Baruuk, Equinox, Gara, Hildryn, Nezha, Nidus, Nova, Revenant, Sevagoth, Titania, Valkyr, Xaku, Zephyr and probably some others I might have missed, which can use different mixes of absolutely reliable DR/CC/recovery to never really be in danger? Or of any of the frames that can go invisible, so they can simply never take damage because invisibility is almost equivalent to invincibility in Warframe?

Yes, there is very little middle ground between clowning the game and getting deleted by enemies, and that is not really healthy for the game, but you still need to choose to get deleted.

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb Hubjump:

Either it's some gimmick like Nekros, Trinity or Wukong or it's kill them before they kill you. Rhinos Iron skin is tanking but I can't helminth that onto everything and being let to live that long with the current games weapons is overpowerd. Because the weapons. Not because I get to live a little longer. 

I'm not enjoying that as much as I once did. I'm bored of dying in the blink of an eye from either a stray shot or two ticks from a status effect without my protective ability active which ever one that might be. 

This could come into the weapon nerf discussion with how room clearing is pretty much the same as not dying. There isn't much to it. I for one am really bored of just deleting rooms to avoid being deleted in an instant if I don't. 

I'm not elaborating as much as I could be because I'm just exhausted. This could even be turned into some "I miss the old days" post when weapons weren't nuclear. 

How are you guys? And what's your take on the state of warframes space ninja combat? 

i have all warframes: normal and primes.
and i like nekros, rhino, trinity (at least in 2013-2014) and many others.
the skills can be fun. However, when it comes to dying, you don't have to worry about anything later. the weapons are maxed anyway, reputation doesn't work, focus is maxed everywhere and you have your 4 revives! or if you play in a team, then it's not an issue either!

no matter if nekros or rhino (etc.!) - i can convert these warframes into a super tank. 2k armor with aoe heal arcane for nekros, I only say. or rhino armor can achieve extreme values according to charge. you can hardly get these things dead. unless it's about boss fights with insta kill ...

warframe currently has too much content to offer for average gamers. I would therefore hardly care about dead and their penality.

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there's a LOT of ways to tank, as almost any frame, and for the few that are kinda squish no matter what, you can use parkour to avoid a lot of stuff; enemy accuracy is reduced while you're airborne and there's Aviator which grants damage reduction while Airborne. or you can just go invisible: any frame can do it with Untraceable Parazon Mod as long as there's a console nearby, and enemeis will usually raise the alarms at some point.

sorry, but if you're dying, it's on you, nothing else. one shots got taken out with shield gating, and we have mods like Adaptation for status procs that could kill you. the only thing that costs you a revive is incompetence on your part: I would know, every time I've died in high levels is because I did something stupid like not keep an eye on an ability.

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11 hours ago, Hubjump said:

Either it's some gimmick like Nekros, Trinity or Wukong or it's kill them before they kill you. Rhinos Iron skin is tanking but I can't helminth that onto everything and being let to live that long with the current games weapons is overpowerd. Because the weapons. Not because I get to live a little longer. 

I'm not enjoying that as much as I once did. I'm bored of dying in the blink of an eye from either a stray shot or two ticks from a status effect without my protective ability active which ever one that might be. 

This could come into the weapon nerf discussion with how room clearing is pretty much the same as not dying. There isn't much to it. I for one am really bored of just deleting rooms to avoid being deleted in an instant if I don't. 

I'm not elaborating as much as I could be because I'm just exhausted. This could even be turned into some "I miss the old days" post when weapons weren't nuclear. 

How are you guys? And what's your take on the state of warframes space ninja combat? 

This is just profoundly inaccurate.  Due to shield-gating, which, yes, could use some slight changes, you don't just have to bring Inaros to stay alive.  More frames are viable on high level content than ever before.  Even without abusing a decaying dragon key (which should be altered so that the decaying dragon key = no shield gating), a single augur mod and a bit of energy management is enough to keep you alive to clear the star chart in Steel Path.  With any* frame you want.

 

If you're dying a lot, try asking yourself some of the following questions:

  • Am I moving enough?
  • Am I using enough survivability mods?
  • Am I taking advantage of my Warframe's abilities to keep me alive?
  • Am I (ab)using operator mode, perhaps with a healing arcane?
  • Do I have the right arcanes equipped?
  • Am I playing a mission on the final tier of the void where enemies have a massive damage multiplier?

These are all worth considering.

 

*Obvious exceptions: frames without shields like Nidus and Inaros, and then Lavos, who has no energy.

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I feel like, the game is casual and easy by design.

So instead of every group having to have a specialized tank, that can pull aggro and keep everyone alive, the game is set up for players to be a one-man army. that can do everything.

Just to lower the fail rate and make it for more forgiving.

I am not for or against any directions or concepts, only you have to stick to your lane I feel. Though I guess you could argue it would be an option to have completely different game modes, to appeal to different playstyles. I think people do ask for that too, so why not.

When I started playing I figured every frame was built around being a specialist, so a defense frame, or a looter frame, a dps frame, where it seems tank is the odd man out.

I guess mainly because they can't pull aggro for several reasons, one being one-hit killing everything lol. But a lot of frames also have CC abilities and you can slap radiation on AOE weapons and so on.

Which is also the problem with weapons I feel, weapons double-dip on eachother's areas and become convoluted. Damage types also. If you add CC effects to the weapons, what's the point of CC on a frame, if a frame has CC what is the point of a tank and so on.

Like the game lacks a concept, where you know what your goal or intentions are, and then you can set up boundaries based on the actual point.

Adding weapons that don't need reload or run of ammo, well, then you have a problem with the whole rest of the game. AOE vs singleshot. Allowing splash damage through walls, I mean that's wall-hacking in other games.

Something like railjack or focus schools, a lot of things in the game feels like it was put in without any vision of it, then abandoned before it was finished.

I think it's time they actually did listen to the players... lol. Not me personally but you know people who are actually educated on the game.

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