NERF pain and suffering - why not BUFF for love and happiness?

[AshikagaWest]

For me, first it was the Catchmoon.

Nerfed into the ground.  I spent 6 months getting it tuned into my build, riven and all.   Then, "whack".  Time + kuva + forma (fortunately, no plat on this one).  The addition of the exilus slot let me bring it back to viability thanks to the projectile speed increase helping with the reduced range.  Still not back to where it was, but back to usable.

Now, all of the primary Melee mods used for high-end content are getting significant nerfs.  You can say the berserker change is minor, but it's not.  Changing the trigger condition from crit hit to kill is massive - by the time it kicks in, I will have given up on the weapon because it's just way too slow.  Unless enemies are low enough that they just fall over - in which case, it does not matter.  More investment, including paying for a Riven getting whacked.

Did anybody ever say, "I don't enjoy playing the Melee meta, please nerf it?"  If so, please direct them to their nearest counciling center and recommend they try challenging themselves with intentionally weaker builds.

(EDIT: the comment above isn't meant as an attack - apologies to anyone who takes it that way.  I was trying to express that it's ironic to be unhappy about having your own overpowered weapons / meta in the game).

Instead of nerfing what's working and enjoyable, how about focusing instead on what is working well, and players enjoy.  We enjoy killing the 100+ enemiers per second (ok, not quite, but sometimes feels like it).  And we enjoy weapons that can do the job.

Now, to be clear - tuning weapons to the game is important.  But PLEASE do that before launching the weapon, OR AT LEAST limit it to a small number of weeks after launch.

Also, wording your message doesn't help matters.  "We are making a ***minor*** change to the Kuva Nukor" - um, dropping its effectiveness by 40% is not minor.  YUP, *another* riven that I bought and use a good amount.

IF you really want to balance the game and damage, then give us players better insight.  For example, I have NO IDEA how other players kill Sortie Lephantis in seconds.  I've tried a LOT of configurations with no success.

Also, more complexity != more fun.  I would honestly prefer a much simpler system overall.  And I can only imagine the number of bugs related to all this complexity.  I can't count the number of times I've thought, "is my damage output bugged?  feels REALLY low right now."  If there needs to be a way to go above-and-beyond for higher level players (I welcome this idea), then perhaps add ways for us to get mods that are Primed+, Primed++, Primed+++, or a system to slowly increase the individual stats of a weapon.  Then, we could have fewer "variations-on-a-theme" mods.  BTW, does anyone at DE know how ALL the mods work?  After playing so long, there are still many with mechanics that I don't understand, and I would be honestly shocked if there is 1 person on the planet that understands all of them.

Anyway, I'm sure my tone here is negative, as I'm not loving the repeated "you're enjoying this too much - WHACK".  So I hope that DE can see this and take it in a constructive manner.

PLEASE buff more, nerf less.  Simple.  Also, less complexity and more back-to-basics would be most welcome.

...

P.S. yeah, I personally rely heavily on melee for high-end content, but actually far less than you seem to think.  Ever since the last Blood Rush nerf-into-the-ground.

[Zhoyzu]

From my perspective they should just remove steel path. None of these things were issues until it existed.

Edit: besides its not like nerfed weapons are suddenly garbage they just arent the only weapon to use.

Whats objectively worse is when you invest a ton of time into a weapon to make it usable just because its your favorite, not because its good, only for a different buffed version that requires significantly less TLC to make really strong.

The real issue isnt nerfs, its reluctance to buffing existing weapons rather than releasing a new buffed version.

[Tiltskillet]

55 minutes ago, AshikagaWest said:

Now, to be clear - tuning weapons to the game is important.  But PLEASE do that before launching the weapon, OR AT LEAST limit it to a small number of weeks after launch.

Not much else that resonates with me in your post, but yeah, I sure wish they'd do a better job balancing before release. And, when warranted, not be too afraid to make changes shortly thereafter.

 

55 minutes ago, AshikagaWest said:

PLEASE buff more, nerf less.  Simple. 

The thing is, DE is  the most nerf averse studio I know of.  So when they do it, it tends to come hard and late.  Which is so jarring for players who've had months and years to get comfortable with powerful toys and  mechanics.

Combine that with poor pre-release balancing and you've got a gourmet recipe for angry 50 page forum threads.  Bon appetit, DE!

[PublikDomain]

7 minutes ago, AshikagaWest said:

If you have 2 apples and I have 3 apples, you can make us equal by either taking one away from me, or giving one to you.

Buffs and nerfs are two ends of the same stick. 

If I have 2 apples, and you have 3 apples, and modding lets us multiply our apples by 200x, then really I have 400 apples and you have 600. Except you don't, really you have 800 apples because your apples have good crit stats and get more from crit mods than mine do, and my apples have a sucky reload I can't afford the mod slots to fix. making that multiplier larger benefits weapons which are already superior, making the divide even wider.

Buffs and nerfs are two ends of the same stick, but you're complaining about one side of the stick being used while ignoring the other. The Nukor is getting fat buffs, just like every other non-melee in the game.

14 minutes ago, AshikagaWest said:

The trick is to make small changes gradually.  You know - avoid "oversteer" / "overcorrect".

Like changing just one stat at a time? Like DE is going to do with the Nukor? A single small change? No?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

58 minutes ago, Zhoyzu said:

From my perspective they should just remove steel path. None of these things were issues until it existed.

Edit: besides its not like nerfed weapons are suddenly garbage they just arent the only weapon to use.

Whats objectively worse is when you invest a ton of time into a weapon to make it usable just because its your favorite, not because its good, only for a different buffed version that requires significantly less TLC to make really strong.

The real issue isnt nerfs, its reluctance to buffing existing weapons rather than releasing a new buffed version.

You clearly never played Warframe before if you honestly believe anything DE nerfs doesn’t have a chance of becoming completely worthless.

[YUNoJump]

11 minutes ago, AshikagaWest said:

If you have 2 apples and I have 3 apples, you can make us equal by either taking one away from me, or giving one to you.

Buffs and nerfs are two ends of the same stick.  The trick is to make small changes gradually.  You know - avoid "oversteer" / "overcorrect".

It’s practically impossible to do perfect balancing in a game like this. There are literally hundreds of different weapons, and many of them have unique abilities which can’t really be objectively compared to others. Even balancing simple AoE against normal guns is a massive discussion, and we have stuff way more crazy than that. Good balance precision is incredibly difficult, especially before the weapon is released and players have had a chance to minmax it. I can’t think of a single game, especially a PvE game, that has ever managed to have truly accurate balancing.

The other thing is the consequence of too many buffs, ie power creep. If you only add buffs in response to power imbalances, pretty soon everything will be so powerful that enemies don’t stand a chance at any level. Warframe already has this issue; 90% of non-endless content offers no challenge whatsoever with a fully kitted build, theres pretty much no chance of failure. Constantly buffing is just going to make this worse. 

[AshikagaWest]

22 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

It’s practically impossible to do perfect balancing in a game like this. There are literally hundreds of different weapons, and many of them have unique abilities which can’t really be objectively compared to others. Even balancing simple AoE against normal guns is a massive discussion, and we have stuff way more crazy than that. Good balance precision is incredibly difficult, especially before the weapon is released and players have had a chance to minmax it. I can’t think of a single game, especially a PvE game, that has ever managed to have truly accurate balancing.

The other thing is the consequence of too many buffs, ie power creep. If you only add buffs in response to power imbalances, pretty soon everything will be so powerful that enemies don’t stand a chance at any level. Warframe already has this issue; 90% of non-endless content offers no challenge whatsoever with a fully kitted build, theres pretty much no chance of failure. Constantly buffing is just going to make this worse. 

That's fair.  I'm not talking about perfect balance.  One thing nice about a cooperative game like this, perfect balance isn't such a huge problem. Competitive games, it's a huge issue.

I loved the Arca Plasmor well beyond its ability to scale well with the content.  No regrets on the investment I made with it.

Also, I agree about too many buffs.  That's not the answer.  To clarify, the "A is too powerful compared to B, so let's nerf A" - that's what I would like to see less of.  And again, working on balancing earlier so player investment into the game is not trashed in a single update.  After the initial Catchmoon nerf, I stopped using it, even though I found no other secondary that was truly worth using in my setup.

I love the idea of more Arcane slots.  That will be welcome.

[Tyreaus]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

So when they do it, it tends to come hard and late.  Which is so jarring for players who've had months and years to get comfortable with powerful toys and  mechanics.

I've felt that DE has a habit of bunching things together a lot, too. It's like there's this idea that a hotfix patches some small things and an update revises a huge chunk of the game and there is no other way around it. (I mean, they brag about how many pages of notes are in an update. I may be the only one but I don't find that impressive, I find it an absurd boasting point. Like, Lord of the Rings is good in spite of the length, not because of it.)

When they first mentioned trying to tackle the melee + ranged divide, and brought up buffing the latter and nerfing the former, I had to wonder, "why aren't you just starting with one and seeing how that goes?" It could even have been something simple like "here's the Galvanized mods, give them a whirl and we'll get back to you in a week or two". Or updating Berserker. Something that gives an iota of temporal organization.

It isn't just jarring but it's more moving parts to consider in a game with a stupid number of moving parts. It makes it that much more difficult to get things into alignment. And that compounds with feedback, too. We've got feedback threads on the Parazon stuff, the weapon buffs and nerfs, and the Helminth update, and that's at a high level - not considering specific mods or arcanes or the Impact proc change. The only data I could pull from glancing through the forums is "the nerfs suck, the Helminth system will be toxic, the Parazon stuff fixes nothing". As far as the general opinion of a specific part? No earthly idea. So based on that input, where should DE go with, say, the Berserker changes? Uhhhh....

_{Oops a little rambly there...}

[Zhoyzu]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

You clearly never played Warframe before if you honestly believe anything DE nerfs doesn’t have a chance of becoming completely worthless.

It might be worthless to you seeing as you have a strong tendency to only use strongly over performing weapons. Which of course is on you, not me or DE.

If you don't like the weapon when balanced its likely you never did. you only like the results it spat out. No amount of weapon design or rebalance will satiate that. 

[DebrisFlow]

8 hours ago, AshikagaWest said:

Instead of nerfing what's working and enjoyable, how about focusing instead on what is working well, and players enjoy.  We enjoy killing the 100+ enemiers per second (ok, not quite, but sometimes feels like it).  And we enjoy weapons that can do the job.

The update is exactly about this, giving you the power to kill 100+ enemies per second...with primary and secondary guns, while slightly toning down melee to still let you kill 100+ enemies per second, just not as the only overwhelming arsenal choice.

8 hours ago, AshikagaWest said:

Also, wording your message doesn't help matters.  "We are making a ***minor*** change to the Kuva Nukor" - um, dropping its effectiveness by 40% is not minor.  YUP, *another* riven that I bought and use a good amount.

Are you letting the "minor" nerf to nukor overshadow the massively overpowered buff it is going to receive through the new arcanes and mods?

8 hours ago, AshikagaWest said:

PLEASE buff more, nerf less.  Simple.  Also, less complexity and more back-to-basics would be most welcome.

This is exactly how the update is structured, some nerfs, considerably more buffs. And sorry, but complexity is the juice of this game, it's fine. Complexity = long term fun = sustainable content. Simplicity = short term fun = unsustainable need of new content to chew.

[ShortCat]

8 hours ago, AshikagaWest said:

If you have 2 apples and I have 3 apples, you can make us equal by either taking one away from me, or giving one to you.

The question is not how many apple do you or the other person have. The question is: how big are your apples and how many apples can you eat before they spoil.

Tranlation: even with nerfs melee will still deal plenty of overkill damage, so that well geared Tenno won't even notice a change. At the same time guns, especially AoE ones, will gain insane power boost (apple size analogy).
Then there is the question of necessity. Will those nerfs change content you are visiting? Like, will those melee nerfs make Sorties impossible? Absolutely freaking not. At the same time, guns will become even more effortless and spammy, way beyound Star Chart missions. You should really think about why you even need more power; to overkill a Butcher in a Lith misison 20x and not 15x? We are already so powerfull that the game cannot challenge us, yet you demand even more power. What for? How are you not bored? (apple rot analogy)
 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

4 hours ago, Zhoyzu said:

It might be worthless to you seeing as you have a strong tendency to only use strongly over performing weapons. Which of course is on you, not me or DE.

If you don't like the weapon when balanced its likely you never did. you only like the results it spat out. No amount of weapon design or rebalance will satiate that. 

How is it my fault for wanting a weapon that can actually kill enemies reliably? In a game that asks you to kill things?

[AshikagaWest]

12 hours ago, Zhoyzu said:

It might be worthless to you seeing as you have a strong tendency to only use strongly over performing weapons. Which of course is on you, not me or DE.

If you don't like the weapon when balanced its likely you never did. you only like the results it spat out. No amount of weapon design or rebalance will satiate that. 

Let's not turn things personal, and avoid attacking others with assumed "tendencies" - that's not constructive.

As for the "don't like the weapon when balanced" comment is a huge assumption on what means balanced, so it's not constructive either.

[Zhoyzu]

27 minutes ago, AshikagaWest said:

Let's not turn things personal, and avoid attacking others with assumed "tendencies" - that's not constructive.

As for the "don't like the weapon when balanced" comment is a huge assumption on what means balanced, so it's not constructive either.

its not personal or were assumptions made. All information was gleaned from your opening post.
Don't act like you don't understand 'balanced' either. If its balanced its in line with other weapons, period.

 

Dont preach to me about melee changes either, i've been there when melee was borderline useless making melee builds and extra frames to forma them separately for the melee mods of the era.

Does it suck when your toys get nerfed? YES But these things are blatantly too strong. So this is objectively a good thing for the longevity of the game. complaining that all your toys are being brought in line ISNT constructive.

All these changes are fine, people are overreacting. You can clear the same content without the mods that are being nerfed. People wanted harder content or a way to get higher enemies from mission start, and we have them. But then turn around and complain when it was too easy and will then become harder due to some oddly specific nerfs. Which you would assume people would be excited about, harder content.

Don't @ me this thread has long been non constructive and im out.

[George_PPS]

I have been feeling the same thing since DE started to nerf many fun factors into oblivion since 2017. One by one some meta weapons or meta mechanics die out and replaced with slow and clunky movements. Why can’t DE focus on what’s fun, keeping them, and improve what’s not so fun or low damage??? Which designer or designers are behind this mentality that the game has huge problems and metas are problems so they have to kill them off?? This is a PvE game not PvE. 

[Monolake]

Perception issues. You ignore insane (to the point of unhealthy) global buffs but a single word 'nerf' no matter how insignificant gives you fits.

And everyone already forgot how exponential mobs scaling got removed - essentially buffing everything to the point that even level cap HP is a joke now. How melee got overbuffed at the same time stacking with mobs nerfs resulting in absurd player damage vs relatively low mobs HP.  This change to melee wont matter - that's how OP it is.

But you will only remember insignificant nerf that supposedly ruined your 'fun'. You wont even notice that your beloved Catchamon is getting all the buffs too, but you will forever remember it's nerf  - even tho it's much more powerful now.  Such is the human perception. They can say 'nerfed' while buffing you will already be upset (no, Im not talking nonsense, this is exactly what happened with Helminth). Such is the human perception.

 

 

[AshikagaWest]

3 hours ago, Monolake said:

Perception issues. You ignore insane (to the point of unhealthy) global buffs but a single word 'nerf' no matter how insignificant gives you fits.

 

 

That is not fair.  And certainly not constructive in any way.

[Andele3025]

While glaives (and what they define as quick throw vs full throw and what they define as radial damage as ATM the workshop posted their slam attack values instead of low charged and full charged throw values) might get a heavy smack, melee ATM with a pre-nerfed mod loadout (rank 10 blood rush, Pfury instead of berserker, still PPP has been pointless overkill due to time wasted priming unless the primer itself can kill or is massive aoe with linger), while the on paper DPS drop seems massive, kill times dont actually change on steel path assuming the weapon has over 20% crit.

Pure status melee weapons with innate heat, viral or corrosive (well for testing on S&AP, but id say it applies to the rest as well) will likely lose their ability to do non-crit builds, but those seem to be not used at all by the general higher end playerbase.

TLDR: Berserker nerf sucks ass and makes terrible stanche butchering from melee 2.9998 more obvious but otherwise mostly the same, if you want non gladiator stat stick melee aim for 31% crit or higher as BR+GVice bring them to guaranteed orange crits (GV getting a trend of being the new best 8th slot option on builds that arent pure slash now, even better than slapping on sac steel)

[SpringRocker]

14 hours ago, Zhoyzu said:

Does it suck when your toys get nerfed? YES But these things are blatantly too strong. So this is objectively a good thing for the longevity of the game. complaining that all your toys are being brought in line ISNT constructive.

Reminds me when the Zenny nerf first came out. As an Ivara main it felt purposed built for her and I liked it a lot. However it was so stupidly overpowered that I was able to solo arb defenses to 480+ with no issues (worried about crashes, so I'd leave around that time rather than press my luck)... This was going on while I was literally practicing my shawzin, in full view during rounds, while solo.

After the nerf I was was a bit annoyed, but it needed to happen. I could clear hallways and maps practically faster than a Saryn on steroids via launching at full speed. It needed to happen (just thought that other things were slated to be nerfed before the Zenny).

I agree, it's needed. I don't understand the thought process behind that whole "just buff the weak stuff", if something is so strong that you can press a button, walk away, and have everything die... No amount of "just buff the weak stuff" is going to fix it.

[AshikagaWest]

6 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

Reminds me when the Zenny nerf first came out. As an Ivara main it felt purposed built for her and I liked it a lot. However it was so stupidly overpowered that I was able to solo arb defenses to 480+ with no issues (worried about crashes, so I'd leave around that time rather than press my luck)... This was going on while I was literally practicing my shawzin, in full view during rounds, while solo.

After the nerf I was was a bit annoyed, but it needed to happen. I could clear hallways and maps practically faster than a Saryn on steroids via launching at full speed. It needed to happen (just thought that other things were slated to be nerfed before the Zenny).

I agree, it's needed. I don't understand the thought process behind that whole "just buff the weak stuff", if something is so strong that you can press a button, walk away, and have everything die... No amount of "just buff the weak stuff" is going to fix it.

If a weapon is that overpowered, it's easy to figure out and "balance" it before release, or shortly afterwards.

Once a player has invested time, effort, and even money, in a build, getting it nerfed is very frustrating.  The catchmoon went from OP to barely worth using on its initial nerf.  That's overkill.  And then it got more nerfs right after, with its Riven disposition being tweaked multiple times.

Also, if players are enjoying it, why worry about it so much?  There are MANY ways that players "nuke everything" in missions.  The only effective way to fix that would be a complete rework of all the game's damage mechanics, or a mass nerf that would be just as disruptive - and would probably just end up shifting the meta to "something else".

I guess the best way to say it is this - I'm getting tired.  Very tired.  Working too hard to enjoy the game.  I know that my builds aren't even the strongest as other players regularly make that clear.  Sometimes, I just want to run around and beat up on enemies without having the read a book and rework my builds because of changes since the last time I played.

[Bakaguya-sama]

Take a step back and look at the overall state of the game.  DE have been doing nothing but non-stop buffing. They buff and buff and buff. Melee buff, Glaive buff, Warframe buff, Shield gate making you unable to take damage even if you want to. The Helminth system out of all thing was a buff of gargantuan proportion. Players are now immortal. Players can wipe rooms half asleep. Players can deal 100x of an enemy health bar in a single click.  We have  ran out room buff the players, short of straightbup giving you an "I WIN" button.  The fact of the matter is the powercreep has increasily spiraled out control.

The only thing that's getting nerfed are the extreme of extreme outliers. Catchmoon (which at some point saw >50% usage rate which is completely unacceptable in a game with hundreds of weapons), Bramma, Nukor, melee weapons. And all they got is at best a slap on the wrist. Oh no my weapon kill enemies .8 of a second slower now, how terrible. 

The Catchmoon is the best example of this. Its still incredibly good after the nerf. Just that the KNukor is so much better. So it fell of the meta because something even better comes out. What you are seeing is too many buff, not too many nerfs.  

If you  grow overly reliant on these outliers, that's on you. Rivens for good weapons are always gonna get nerfed. That's the point of the system. Maybe thought about that before shelling out plat to buy one for it. 

We need nerfs because we have had too many buffs. It's really that simple.  

[Venus-Venera]

Am 22.6.2021 um 02:08 schrieb AshikagaWest:

For me, first it was the Catchmoon.

Nerfed into the ground.  I spent 6 months getting it tuned into my build, riven and all.   Then, "whack".  Time + kuva + forma (fortunately, no plat on this one).  The addition of the exilus slot let me bring it back to viability thanks to the projectile speed increase helping with the reduced range.  Still not back to where it was, but back to usable.

Now, all of the primary Melee mods used for high-end content are getting significant nerfs.  You can say the berserker change is minor, but it's not.  Changing the trigger condition from crit hit to kill is massive - by the time it kicks in, I will have given up on the weapon because it's just way too slow.  Unless enemies are low enough that they just fall over - in which case, it does not matter.  More investment, including paying for a Riven getting whacked.

Did anybody ever say, "I don't enjoy playing the Melee meta, please nerf it?"  If so, please direct them to their nearest counciling center and recommend they try challenging themselves with intentionally weaker builds.

Instead of nerfing what's working and enjoyable, how about focusing instead on what is working well, and players enjoy.  We enjoy killing the 100+ enemiers per second (ok, not quite, but sometimes feels like it).  And we enjoy weapons that can do the job.

Now, to be clear - tuning weapons to the game is important.  But PLEASE do that before launching the weapon, OR AT LEAST limit it to a small number of weeks after launch.

Also, wording your message doesn't help matters.  "We are making a ***minor*** change to the Kuva Nukor" - um, dropping its effectiveness by 40% is not minor.  YUP, *another* riven that I bought and use a good amount.

IF you really want to balance the game and damage, then give us players better insight.  For example, I have NO IDEA how other players kill Sortie Lephantis in seconds.  I've tried a LOT of configurations with no success.

Also, more complexity != more fun.  I would honestly prefer a much simpler system overall.  And I can only imagine the number of bugs related to all this complexity.  I can't count the number of times I've thought, "is my damage output bugged?  feels REALLY low right now."  If there needs to be a way to go above-and-beyond for higher level players (I welcome this idea), then perhaps add ways for us to get mods that are Primed+, Primed++, Primed+++, or a system to slowly increase the individual stats of a weapon.  Then, we could have fewer "variations-on-a-theme" mods.  BTW, does anyone at DE know how ALL the mods work?  After playing so long, there are still many with mechanics that I don't understand, and I would be honestly shocked if there is 1 person on the planet that understands all of them.

Anyway, I'm sure my tone here is negative, as I'm not loving the repeated "you're enjoying this too much - WHACK".  So I hope that DE can see this and take it in a constructive manner.

PLEASE buff more, nerf less.  Simple.  Also, less complexity and more back-to-basics would be most welcome.

...

P.S. yeah, I personally rely heavily on melee for high-end content, but actually far less than you seem to think.  Ever since the last Blood Rush nerf-into-the-ground.

because devs have no idea. Yes.......! DE already has top people. very good designers, very good sounds developer. But that's not all.
balance has always been for the garbage can. and if you can't even calculate primitive things in excel, it's your own fault!

[AshikagaWest]

Quote

If you  grow overly reliant on these outliers, that's on you

Quote

 if you can't even calculate primitive things in excel, it's your own fault!

Wow.  So many combative, non-constructive responses.  These comments are non-actionable, and not based on facts.  Hence they are pure criticism and not effective.

I'm really curious, why do commenters feel SO strongly compelled to attack and make-up facts?  Please, keep it constructive.

I appreciate some players feel the game is well-balanced, or the nerfs aren't a concern.  That's fine and useful feedback.  It doesn't change my mind since it doesn't address my core point (that is player investment that is discarded by the changes), but the additional viewpoint is still valuable.

If the intent is just to generate an emotional, non-constructive response, then please stop.  That only leads to toxicity.

 

[Bakaguya-sama]

18 minutes ago, AshikagaWest said:

I'm really curious, why do commenters feel SO strongly compelled to attack and make-up facts?  Please, keep it constructive.

Ok, I'll bite.  What fact am I making up?  

I'm saying that the Riven system is designed to buff the weaker, underused weapons. This is an established fact. If you shell out out lot of plat for an overused, overpowered weapon, and not expecting the riven or the weapon itself getting a nerf, that's on you. 

Your core point is that "Player investment is discarded by the changes", and that's true. But that's what the investment is, isn't it? Perpetual profit is not guaranteed. You can lose from an investment. In this case, you did not evaluate the risk of investing a lot of plat and time into an overused weapon. And so you lost.  

I have rivens for most of the meta weapons. I bought Catchmoon riven early on when they were expensive and invested a lot of Plat and Kuva into it. I bought a Rubico Prime riven back when it was 2000 plat for an unrolled one, and I would be lucky to be able to sell a CD CC MS for 900 plat now (Rubico Riven was much more valuable back when Eidolon was much harder than what is is today, another demonstration of Warframe's powercreep over the years). I have well-rolled Rivens for Gram Prime, Kronen Prime, Kuva Nukor, and the Glaive Prime. I have made peace with the fact that they WILL all get nerfed and simply enjoy what they are in their current state.  I invest my time into these weapons because, despite knowing they will get nerfed, they provide me enjoyment now, and that's what matter.  

In short: Don't expect overpowered things to not get nerfed and invest accordingly. I think that's a reasonable thing to say. Whether you interpret that as being constructive or not, is up to you.  

Again, the game is so filled with power boosting systems that the players remain significantly stronger than what the game throw at them, despite the nerfs. With Breach Surge I can even make Chroma's Spectral Scream, the shttiest ability in the game, capable of killing lvl 400 Steel Path enemies.

[AshikagaWest]

3 hours ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

Ok, I'll bite.  What fact am I making up?  

I'm saying that the Riven system is designed to buff the weaker, underused weapons. This is an established fact. If you shell out out lot of plat for an overused, overpowered weapon, and not expecting the riven or the weapon itself getting a nerf, that's on you. 

Your core point is that "Player investment is discarded by the changes", and that's true. But that's what the investment is, isn't it? Perpetual profit is not guaranteed. You can lose from an investment. In this case, you did not evaluate the risk of investing a lot of plat and time into an overused weapon. And so you lost.  

I have rivens for most of the meta weapons. I bought Catchmoon riven early on when they were expensive and invested a lot of Plat and Kuva into it. I bought a Rubico Prime riven back when it was 2000 plat for an unrolled one, and I would be lucky to be able to sell a CD CC MS for 900 plat now (Rubico Riven was much more valuable back when Eidolon was much harder than what is is today, another demonstration of Warframe's powercreep over the years). I have well-rolled Rivens for Gram Prime, Kronen Prime, Kuva Nukor, and the Glaive Prime. I have made peace with the fact that they WILL all get nerfed and simply enjoy what they are in their current state.  I invest my time into these weapons because, despite knowing they will get nerfed, they provide me enjoyment now, and that's what matter.  

In short: Don't expect overpowered things to not get nerfed and invest accordingly. I think that's a reasonable thing to say. Whether you interpret that as being constructive or not, is up to you.  

Again, the game is so filled with power boosting systems that the players remain significantly stronger than what the game throw at them, despite the nerfs. With Breach Surge I can even make Chroma's Spectral Scream, the shttiest ability in the game, capable of killing lvl 400 Steel Path enemies.

A good point in here - a notable part of Warframe is the challenge of figuring out effective builds.

Early on, figuring out how to do spy missions (before acquiring Ivara) was fun.  Around MR 6 (plus or minus, hard to remember when now), the task of learning statuses, and modding effectively for Corpus vs Grineer vs Infested took some effort.  I didn't enjoy that as much, but it was a challenge and I was really happy when I got through it.  Of course, at higher levels, armor reigns supreme, so those differences are less important.

Experimenting with Riven Challenges has been enjoyable -- such as the no-damage challenges.

More recent attempts to address damage output (tweaking weapon status, adjusting crit + status chance + multishot + base-dmg-mult), hasn't worked out well though.  Things that look good on paper not working out in-game; not sure why.

As far as overpowered...  My overpowered builds don't feel overpowered -- no matter what build I run, there are other players out-damaging everything I bring to missions, sometimes to the point my DMG % is tiny (e.g. 2%); I'm not complaining about it, just mentioning for perspective.

Here's a thought for the Nukor: if the concern is that the additional Arcanes will make it too powerful, then offer arcanes that return it back to the same state it's in now - I'd be comfortable with that because then I can choose to keep it as-is, or tweak it with different arcanes.

As you point out, there are many ways to be overpowered in Warframe.  Just nerfing a few really feels arbitrary and discouraging when they hit my favorite builds to use.  I'm not going to mention my favorite weapon in the game - even though it definitely is not OP, and not heavily used across the player base - because I don't want to tempt fate ;-).  The possibility of Arca Plasmor getting new life for higher-end content is promising!